Macgregor of the North

Help needed.Some confused Thoughts on Bran/Brandon the builder.

218 posts in this topic

I lack the skill it seems to lay out my thoughts in an organised understandable fashion on this topic which is frustrating big time but I wanted to begin a thread to see if anybody out there has had more luck than me piecing together their thoughts on the topic. 

There are older threads that are archived now that have touched on it and had some good discussion but there may be somebody out there now who has great coherent notes and I for one would love to read them.

Basically, I've been thinking lately a lot on planetos going through a time loop which sees the world run its course to a certain point, go through some kind of event, then begin again with a rebuild process which Bran/Brandon the builder plays a huge part in. I also think our Bran Stark is possibly earmarked to be this eras Bran the builder.

At the risk of rambling on I'll leave some quotes that always set me to thinking. 

THE WOIAF; The North, Winterfell:

"Legend says that Brandon the Builder raised Winterfell after the generation-long winter known as the Long Night to become the stronghold of his descendants, the Kings of Winter. As Brandon the Builder is connected with an improbable number of great works (Storm's End and the Wall, to name but two prominent examples) over a span of numerous lifetimes, the tales have likely turned some ancient king, or a number of different kings of House Stark (for there have been many Brandons in the long reign of that family) into something more legendary".

Part of me always wonders if Winterfells stone foundations are possibly always devastated during the long winter/long night and Bran the builder must rebuild again each time. The Castle seems to have had numerous rebuilds throughout the eras.

ACOK CAT III:

"The songs said that Storm's End had been raised in ancient days by Durran, the first Storm King, who had won the love of the fair Elenei, daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind. On the night of their wedding, Elenei had yielded her maidenhood to a mortal's love and thus doomed herself to a mortal's death, and her grieving parents had unleashed their wrath and sent the winds and waters to batter down Durran's hold. His friends and brothers and wedding guests were crushed beneath collapsing walls or blown out to sea, but Elenei sheltered Durran within her arms so he took no harm, and when the dawn came at last he declared war upon the gods and vowed to rebuild.

Five more castles he built, each larger and stronger than the last, only to see them smashed asunder when the gale winds came howling up Shipbreaker Bay, driving great walls of water before them. His lords pleaded with him to build inland; his priests told him he must placate the gods by giving Elenei back to the sea; even his smallfolk begged him to relent. Durran would have none of it. A seventh castle he raised, most massive of all. Some said the children of the forest helped him build it, shaping the stones with magic; others claimed that a small boy told him what he must do, a boy who would grow to be Bran the Builder. No matter how the tale was told, the end was the same. Though the angry gods threw storm after storm against it, the seventh castle stood defiant, and Durran Godsgrief and fair Elenei dwelt there together until the end of their days."

THE WOIAF; The Stormlands, House Durrandon.

"The legends surrounding the founder of House Durrandon, Durran Godsgrief, all come to us through the singers. The songs tell us that Durran won the heart of Elenei, daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind. By yielding to a mortal's love, Elenei doomed herself to a mortal's death, and for this the gods who had given her birth hated the man she had taken for her lord husband. In their wroth, they sent howling winds and lashing rains to knock down every castle Durran dared to build, until a young boy helped him erect one so strong and cunningly made that it could defy their gales. The boy grew to be Brandon the Builder; Durran became the first Storm King. With Elenei at his side, he lived and reigned at Storm's End for a thousand years, or so the stories claim. 

(Such a life span seems most unlikely, even for a hero married to the daughter of two gods. Archmaester Glaive, himself a stormlander by birth, once suggested that this King of a Thousand Years was in truth a succession of monarchs all bearing the same name, which seems plausible but must forever remain unproved.)"

These quotes for me also seem to point to a repeating of events time after time which focuses on rebuilds after devestations. As I'm sure everybody always notices when they read clash, the passage even goes so far as to say Durran had the help of a young boy who would grow to be Brandon the builder. 

Then it mentions that house Durran likely had many many Durrans throughout the eras, just like the Starks have had many Brandon's. 

Is it possible our Bran is this time rounds Bran the builder, destined to guide the rebuild process of the Wall, and Winterfell and possibly more places, after another devastating long winter/long night? 

Any contributions would be appreciated. As I've mentioned, I struggle to lay out coherent notes on this topic as I always read them back and they turn to ramblings. 

 

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I don't agree with the main premise of this thread. I do sometimes ponder, however,  on whether Bran might not also be Bran the Builder, and eventually influence a lot of the events of the distant past through some kind of time loop mechanism. When Coldhands states that he is "Your Monster, Brandon Stark", it seems more significant than a mere casual reference. It suggests that Bran himself might have had a hand in creating Coldhands. In the past.

We know that Eddard can at least hear something when Bran tries to speak to him through the Tree in the past. This in contrast to Bloodraven's belief that one cannot reach into the past.

If a novice Bran can whisper at the boundary of audibility to Eddard 10 or 20 years ago, what might a fully trained Bran, merged to the Heart Tree in Winterfell eventually be able to do? Give instructions to a young Bran the Builder on where and how to build Winterfell and the Wall? Or perhaps Bran the Builder was Bran all along, speaking through many different greenseers in the distant past, thus allowing him to build Storms End and complete all the other feats attributed to the original Bran, over many generations.

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4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I don't agree with the main premise of this thread. I do sometimes ponder, however,  on whether Bran might not also be Bran the Builder, and eventually influence a lot of the events of the distant past through some kind of time loop mechanism. When Coldhands states that he is "Your Monster, Brandon Stark", it seems more significant than a mere casual reference. It suggests that Bran himself might have had a hand in creating Coldhands. In the past.

We know that Eddard can at least hear something when Bran tries to speak to him through the Tree in the past. This in contrast to Bloodraven's belief that one cannot reach into the past.

If a novice Bran can whisper at the boundary of audibility to Eddard 10 or 20 years ago, what might a fully trained Bran, merged to the Heart Tree in Winterfell eventually be able to do? Give instructions to a young Bran the Builder on where and how to build Winterfell and the Wall? Or perhaps Bran the Builder was Bran all along, speaking through many different greenseers in the distant past, thus allowing him to build Storms End and complete all the other feats attributed to the original Bran, over many generations.

I do believe that BR has it wrong when he tells Bran he cannot reach the people in the past, and he maybe just doesn't comprehend the full potential of Brans powers yet.

Bran knows Winterfell better than anybody alive, he is certainly the best person to guide others in the past on how to build the castle. Does he know it so well due to just climbing it so much in his youth though? Or because he is some reincarnate Bran the builder? Lol heads starting to throb again. 

 

 

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On the mentions of Durran, is it possible the young boy(future Bran the builder) is telling him what to do through a heart tree, or a dream and not necessarily in person physically? Like every Durran of the different eras who rebuilds the Storms end fortress was guided by a young greenseer who becomes each eras Brandon the builder?.

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I think that all of these legendary structures - the Wall, Winterfell, Storm's End etc., were built over many generations. But that their foundations were laid with the same very powerful blood sacrifice-based spells. And that it was these spells that were cast by this mythical Brandon the Builder character. As the structures then arose around the foundation over ensuing centuries, these spells simply infused the stone as it grew.

 

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Bran is a Timelord, no question in my mind.  And it's possible he's been every one of the Brandons.  

And as for the time loop, there's an in-depth analysis here by @Feather Crystaland it's a fascinating topic!  

On the topic of Bran being Bran the Builder, there is a wonderful passage in AGoT (Bran II) where Bran talks about his knowledge of Winterfell's architecture, and it's eye-opening to re-read this knowing Bran is Bran the Builder.

The "Bran the Timelord" theory has always been considered crackpot, but not any more.  If Bran can time travel and affect or ever warg people in the past (which is almost certain now) then anything is possible.  

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1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I think that all of these legendary structures - the Wall, Winterfell, Storm's End etc., were built over many generations. But that their foundations were laid with the same very powerful blood sacrifice-based spells. And that it was these spells that were cast by this mythical Brandon the Builder character. As the structures then arose around the foundation over ensuing centuries, these spells simply infused the stone as it grew.

 

Again on the storm kings fortress, it seems as though each fortress was utterly devastated and started anew by a new Durran from each era.

Is it that the seventh Durran to build the fortress was visited by a young Brandon Stark(by tree, dream or in person), or he seeked out a young Brandon Stark? And then this young boy relayed to Durran the spells of the CoTf he must use to fuse the stones so magically?. 

Is it possible this Bran acted as a translator of a sort to communicate the children's magic spells to Durran? 

Is it possible our Bran is going to be a similar figure and become this eras/ or 'the' Bran the builder who visits people in the past and guides them with creating structures of protection or am I getting ahead of myself?.

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7 minutes ago, WeaselPie said:

Bran is a Timelord, no question in my mind.  And it's possible he's been every one of the Brandons.  

And as for the time loop, there's an in-depth analysis here by @Feather Crystaland it's a fascinating topic!  

On the topic of Bran being Bran the Builder, there is a wonderful passage in AGoT (Bran II) where Bran talks about his knowledge of Winterfell's architecture, and it's eye-opening to re-read this knowing Bran is Bran the Builder.

The "Bran the Timelord" theory has always been considered crackpot, but not any more.  If Bran can time travel and affect or ever warg people in the past (which is almost certain now) then anything is possible.  

I do agree that now it is becoming less of a crackpot idea. I have given it thought a good few times but now I'm actually trying to dedicate some real time to figuring it all out. Cheers for the link. 

I do also think the fact Bran knows all the architectural secrets of WF is very interesting, is it more than because he has climbed the castle so many times and it's that he actually has the knowledge because he had a hand in building it in the past?. It's interesting to think of it that way but hard to get my head round to.

I do fully believe one thing, that Bran will surpass what BR thinks he is capable of and will be able to reach people from the past and may even influence their actions. If he can skinchange beings from the past also, I wouldn't be surprised. 

I have in my head an idea of Bran the builder learning the old languages etc and skinchanging Giants and communicating among them to get them on board with plans to build structures etc but then I feel like I'm rambling away. And also, why would Bran the builder need to do that when he could possibly just get the CoTf to ask the Giants to help. 

Everytime I think deep into this topic I have to always come back to the start and rethink as its a big head fry :D

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8 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

is it more than because he has climbed the castle so many times and it's that he actually has the knowledge because he had a hand in building it in the past?.

It could be a case of Bran recreating a past he heard about in stories, if that makes sense.  Bran knows how to build Winterfell because he knows Winterfell so well ...because he built Winterfell.   Bran is one of the great storytellers/historians in the books.

As for the warging in the past, I also believe that 100% and it ties into the above.  What if Bran were the KotLT for example?   Howland prays to the old gods, Bran is plugged into the weirnet and decides to warg Howland, and he always wanted to be a knight...

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8 minutes ago, WeaselPie said:

It could be a case of Bran recreating a past he heard about in stories, if that makes sense.  Bran knows how to build Winterfell because he knows Winterfell so well ...because he built Winterfell.   Bran is one of the great storytellers/historians in the books.

As for the warging in the past, I also believe that 100% and it ties into the above.  What if Bran were the KotLT for example?   Howland prays to the old gods, Bran is plugged into the weirnet and decides to warg Howland, and he always wanted to be a knight...

Do you think the world in the books follows a time loop? Like a kind of devastation then rebuild process with Bran the builder being the one to guide men in their rebuilding process? Or do you think there has only been one long night and a build from there?.

I do understand the possibilities that Bran could be the KotLt. If GRRM gives Bran enough time in the cave learning his skills he could easily focus his mind on Howlands prayer and literally become part of the story Meera told him, becoming a Knight after all. I am not saying this will happen but I certainly grasp the possibility and Bran will have alot of time on his hands, plus the power to do so maybe. 

If we think down this road the possibilities are endless really. How far Brans powers stretch is definitely going to be one of the best things about reading WoW.

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19 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Do you think the world in the books follows a time loop?

It's complicated of course! :D  I've tried to figure out the route GRRM will take - considering there are endless possibilities. There is no doubt there is some kind of loop/repetition.  Thematically, there are parallels - some obvious, some less so - between characters and situations that can't be ignored.  If you read @Feather Crystal's series of essays, you'll it's an essential and inarguable part of GRRM's "build" of the book world.

It's my personal opinion that we won't see Bran won't go back and change what we know about the past because he has already created the past we know.   

Two huge topics, the challenge is narrowing down what GRRM might do.

19 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

How far Brans powers stretch is definitely going to be one of the best things about reading WoW.

I agree!  There are burning questions about why a certain character acted a certain way in the past.

Why did Brandon (Ned's brother) incite the King's anger by demanding Rhaegar come out and die?  Maybe because that's what The Bran knows Brandon did.

BTW I've long believed Hodor is Hodor because of Bran and his ability to affect the past. ^_^  

Other unanswered questions - like why did Rhaegar give Lyanna the laurel? - could be simply answered.  "Because that's what Bran heard in the story."  Just an example.

ETA we might be witnessing the final cycle of Bran's ability to go back and affect the past.   There could have been endless loops - hence the multitude of repeating storylines and parallel characters/events.  But now, this is the last one, and possibly part of the "end game" of the books is the destruction of Bran's abilities.

Edited by WeaselPie
ETA

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I think you're on the scent of something useful and true. To figure out a "recycled Bran" theory, though, you should probably look at these excerpts:

She was a very ugly old woman, Bran thought spitefully; shrunken and wrinkled, almost blind, too weak to climb stairs, with only a few wisps of white hair left to cover a mottled pink scalp. No one really knew how old she was, but his father said she'd been called Old Nan even when he was a boy. She was the oldest person in Winterfell for certain, maybe the oldest person in the Seven Kingdoms. Nan had come to the castle as a wet nurse for a Brandon Stark whose mother had died birthing him. He had been an older brother of Lord Rickard, Bran's grandfather, or perhaps a younger brother, or a brother to Lord Rickard's father. Sometimes Old Nan told it one way and sometimes another. In all the stories the little boy died at three of a summer chill, but Old Nan stayed on at Winterfell with her own children. She had lost both her sons to the war when King Robert won the throne, and her grandson was killed on the walls of Pyke during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion. Her daughters had long ago married and moved away and died. All that was left of her own blood was Hodor, the simpleminded giant who worked in the stables, but Old Nan just lived on and on, doing her needlework and telling her stories.

AGoT, Bran IV

"I could tell you the story about Brandon the Builder," Old Nan said. "That was always your favorite."

Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder had raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. Bran knew the story, but it had never been his favorite. Maybe one of the other Brandons had liked that story. Sometimes Nan would talk to him as if he were her Brandon, the baby she had nursed all those years ago, and sometimes she confused him with his uncle Brandon, who was killed by the Mad King before Bran was even born. She had lived so long, Mother had told him once, that all the Brandon Starks had become one person in her head.

 

AGoT, Bran IV

There was a reread thread devoted to spotting instances of Bran's greenseer powers that may have some good evidence of places where Bran reaches out through weirwoods or through skinchanging to manipulate the past (before he reached Bloodraven). I found the writing style difficult to navigate so I didn't follow the discussion, but maybe I'll go back now and take another look.

Based on what we know of GRRM's delight in turning literary archetypes and expectations on their heads, I am starting to suspect that there is more to Old Nan than just a motherly old storyteller. She is a lot like the Queen of Thorns, for one thing (including the similarities between the names Olenna and Old Nan), and the Queen of Thorns claims to have poisoned Joffrey. Could Old Nan have played a role in the catspaw attack on Bran? How many Stark babies named Bran have died in her care? If she was sent (by whom?) into the Stark household to kill baby Brandons, how did Ned's brother live to be a grown man? Does she select certain Brandons for life and others for death?

Interesting discussion. Thanks for launching this thread.

Edited by Seams

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I don't know how time travel would work in this series, but it would seem to me that Bran can only effect the past through external means such as trees, ravens, wind etc. or (Show spoilers)

Spoiler

warg a human being in the past. However I think this will be very very difficult to do and after the Hodor debacle, I really doubt he'd ever try it again.

I don't know if he can effectively reincarnate as a body in the past (ala Back to the Future)? It could more be like he whispers through the trees or ravens to the original Bran the Builder, at best. I doubt he is "every Brandon Stark ever born".

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2 hours ago, WeaselPie said:

 

ETA we might be witnessing the final cycle of Bran's ability to go back and affect the past.   There could have been endless loops - hence the multitude of repeating storylines and parallel characters/events.  But now, this is the last one, and possibly part of the "end game" of the books is the destruction of Bran's abilities.

I had thought this could be the final cycle of all the loops aswell. In previous ones(such as the last) Bran/Bran the builder may have managed to build Winterfell and the wall with sufficient magical powers, and installed the NW at the Wall and the Starks in WF, thinking this may have been enough for protection when the long night comes again. 

Maybe in a previous loop he helped the Durran of that time build his final fortress(Storms end) with sufficient magical properties for it to stand forever. 

Now though, with the cycle nearing an end again, maybe Bran the builder will find something different to be done. Instead of helping to rebuild the strongholds and fortresses again in preparation for another long night, maybe this Bran will seek to build bridges between the races and build some kind of peace balance that will prevent another long night happening?. Whatever this may entail though I think will be at great cost hence the bittersweet ending we are all preparing for. 

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

I think you're on the scent of something useful and true. 

Hey seams, thanks. 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

There was a reread thread devoted to spotting instances of Bran's greenseer powers that may have some good evidence of places where Bran reaches out through weirwoods or through skinchanging to manipulate the past (before he reached Bloodraven). I found the writing style difficult to navigate so I didn't follow the discussion, but maybe I'll go back now and take another look.

Based on what we know of GRRM's delight in turning literary archetypes and expectations on their heads, I am starting to suspect that there is more to Old Nan than just a motherly old storyteller. She is a lot like the Queen of Thornes, for one thing (including the similarities between the names Olenna and Old Nan), and the Queen of Thornes claims to have poisoned Joffrey. Could Old Nan have played a role in the catspaw attack on Bran? How many Stark babies named Bran have died in her care? If she was sent (by whom?) into the Stark household to kill baby Brandons, how did Ned's brother live to be a grown man? Does she select certain Brandons for life and others for death?

Interesting discussion. Thanks for launching this thread.

Cheers for the heads up on the thread I'll also grab a look through that. 

On the topic of Old Nan, while I think there is more to her possibly than just being the motherly old storyteller we love, I just can't vibe with the idea she has played a part in harm coming to any baby Brandon Starks. We do know Artos Stark had twins very likely at a time Nan was there, Brandon and Benjen, who grew to manhood and had children so nothing bad befell that Brandon when he was a baby at least. And also Neds brother like you said lived to manhood also. 

I do love the line you pointed out that all the Brandon Starks had became one in her head, I'm quite sure that means something for us readers to maybe pick up on but I'm not so sure that anything sinister is going on with Nan. As always though, my mind is open when it comes to this series. 

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46 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I don't know how time travel would work in this series, but it would seem to me that Bran can only effect the past through external means such as trees, ravens, wind etc. or (Show spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

warg a human being in the past. However I think this will be very very difficult to do and after the Hodor debacle, I really doubt he'd ever try it again.

I don't know if he can effectively reincarnate as a body in the past (ala Back to the Future)? It could more be like he whispers through the trees or ravens to the original Bran the Builder, at best. I doubt he is "every Brandon Stark ever born".

The spoiler comment has not been confirmed that it's going to play out that way. Can we keep it to just what we know from the books so far please incase we incur the wrath of a forum moderator.

 

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7 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I don't agree with the main premise of this thread. I do sometimes ponder, however,  on whether Bran might not also be Bran the Builder, and eventually influence a lot of the events of the distant past through some kind of time loop mechanism. When Coldhands states that he is "Your Monster, Brandon Stark", it seems more significant than a mere casual reference. It suggests that Bran himself might have had a hand in creating Coldhands. In the past.

When Coldhands says "Your Monster," he's not talking about himself. He is talking about Bloodraven. Btan is asking who the Three eyed crow is and CH describes him as a "wizard, dreamer, last green-seer," etc. Then Bran says he is a monster, to which CH replies, "Your Monster."

Right?

Am I off here?

 

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I do need to return and read this thread more thoroughly as well as the comments, but I only have time for a quick comment....

I have been trying to nail down the order of the wheel of time, because there is a sequence of events, but I'm not sure in what order. Here is what I currently think is the cycle:

Birth of new cycle

Invading conqueror

Pact

Blood magic ritual

Red Comet

Lord steals a Moonmaid

Bastard of Winterfell

Nights King

Destruction

Be back later....

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7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I lack the skill it seems to lay out my thoughts in an organised understandable fashion on this topic which is frustrating big time but I wanted to begin a thread to see if anybody out there has had more luck than me piecing together their thoughts on the topic. 

There are older threads that are archived now that have touched on it and had some good discussion but there may be somebody out there now who has great coherent notes and I for one would love to read them.

Basically, I've been thinking lately a lot on planetos going through a time loop which sees the world run its course to a certain point, go through some kind of event, then begin again with a rebuild process which Bran/Brandon the builder plays a huge part in. I also think our Bran Stark is possibly earmarked to be this eras Bran the builder.

At the risk of rambling on I'll leave some quotes that always set me to thinking. 

THE WOIAF; The North, Winterfell:

"Legend says that Brandon the Builder raised Winterfell after the generation-long winter known as the Long Night to become the stronghold of his descendants, the Kings of Winter. As Brandon the Builder is connected with an improbable number of great works (Storm's End and the Wall, to name but two prominent examples) over a span of numerous lifetimes, the tales have likely turned some ancient king, or a number of different kings of House Stark (for there have been many Brandons in the long reign of that family) into something more legendary".

Part of me always wonders if Winterfells stone foundations are possibly always devastated during the long winter/long night and Bran the builder must rebuild again each time. The Castle seems to have had numerous rebuilds throughout the eras.

ACOK CAT III:

"The songs said that Storm's End had been raised in ancient days by Durran, the first Storm King, who had won the love of the fair Elenei, daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind. On the night of their wedding, Elenei had yielded her maidenhood to a mortal's love and thus doomed herself to a mortal's death, and her grieving parents had unleashed their wrath and sent the winds and waters to batter down Durran's hold. His friends and brothers and wedding guests were crushed beneath collapsing walls or blown out to sea, but Elenei sheltered Durran within her arms so he took no harm, and when the dawn came at last he declared war upon the gods and vowed to rebuild.

Five more castles he built, each larger and stronger than the last, only to see them smashed asunder when the gale winds came howling up Shipbreaker Bay, driving great walls of water before them. His lords pleaded with him to build inland; his priests told him he must placate the gods by giving Elenei back to the sea; even his smallfolk begged him to relent. Durran would have none of it. A seventh castle he raised, most massive of all. Some said the children of the forest helped him build it, shaping the stones with magic; others claimed that a small boy told him what he must do, a boy who would grow to be Bran the Builder. No matter how the tale was told, the end was the same. Though the angry gods threw storm after storm against it, the seventh castle stood defiant, and Durran Godsgrief and fair Elenei dwelt there together until the end of their days."

THE WOIAF; The Stormlands, House Durrandon.

"The legends surrounding the founder of House Durrandon, Durran Godsgrief, all come to us through the singers. The songs tell us that Durran won the heart of Elenei, daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind. By yielding to a mortal's love, Elenei doomed herself to a mortal's death, and for this the gods who had given her birth hated the man she had taken for her lord husband. In their wroth, they sent howling winds and lashing rains to knock down every castle Durran dared to build, until a young boy helped him erect one so strong and cunningly made that it could defy their gales. The boy grew to be Brandon the Builder; Durran became the first Storm King. With Elenei at his side, he lived and reigned at Storm's End for a thousand years, or so the stories claim. 

(Such a life span seems most unlikely, even for a hero married to the daughter of two gods. Archmaester Glaive, himself a stormlander by birth, once suggested that this King of a Thousand Years was in truth a succession of monarchs all bearing the same name, which seems plausible but must forever remain unproved.)"

These quotes for me also seem to point to a repeating of events time after time which focuses on rebuilds after devestations. As I'm sure everybody always notices when they read clash, the passage even goes so far as to say Durran had the help of a young boy who would grow to be Brandon the builder. 

Then it mentions that house Durran likely had many many Durrans throughout the eras, just like the Starks have had many Brandon's. 

Is it possible our Bran is this time rounds Bran the builder, destined to guide the rebuild process of the Wall, and Winterfell and possibly more places, after another devastating long winter/long night? 

Any contributions would be appreciated. As I've mentioned, I struggle to lay out coherent notes on this topic as I always read them back and they turn to ramblings. 

 

There's quite a strong indication that it was tradition to always name the firstborn son after the father. I think the family name Durrandon is something like Johnson; so Durrandon would mean Son of Durran. There have probably been many Durran Durrandons. Brandon would also simply mean son of Bran, which is implied by Brandon being called Bran. He's the only stark kid that goes by a shorter version of his name,  although most of the other names don't allow for it. 

The Mountain clans still hold the tradition of naming themselves Timmett son of Timmett,  and Shagga son of Dolf etc.

It could also be that names like Brandon and Durran were given to those who were perceived as reincarnations of their first kings, making those with the "chosen" names the spiritual sons of Brandon and Durran.

I'll have to look to find out if there are more examples like this, and perhaps daughter ones as well. 

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26 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

There's quite a strong indication that it was tradition to always name the firstborn son after the father. I think the family name Durrandon is something like Johnson; so Durrandon would mean Son of Durran. There have probably been many Durran Durrandons. Brandon would also simply mean son of Bran, which is implied by Brandon being called Bran. He's the only stark kid that goes by a shorter version of his name,  although most of the other names don't allow for it. 

The Mountain clans still hold the tradition of naming themselves Timmett son of Timmett,  and Shagga son of Dolf etc.

It could also be that names like Brandon and Durran were given to those who were perceived as reincarnations of their first kings, making those with the "chosen" names the spiritual sons of Brandon and Durran.

I'll have to look to find out if there are more examples like this, and perhaps daughter ones as well. 

How do you like Lannister = Lann Sister... The twincest started early it seems ;)

I think Lann the Clever might actually have been a woman who tricked the Casterly's out of Casterly's Rock the same way as Cersei tricked the Baratheons from the Iron Throne...

Lann is not a common Lannister name,  the closest thing is Lancel, but there is a Lanna Lannister. So I think Lann is short for Lanna, and the house is named through the female line. It is said that at home Joanna Lannister ruled,  and the Lannister women seem to be rather strong/independent in general,  and there's Cersei's wish to be seen as an equal to Jaime... I think the Lannister women used to be (more) in power in the past. 

Sorry for the detour, I'll go back on topic. 

Edited by Manderly's Rat Cook

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