Help needed.Some confused Thoughts on Bran/Brandon the builder.

[Macgregor of the North]

3 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

 

It's somewhere near the end (like at 3/4 of the total length), when the great houses are discussed. I think in this order: Stark, Targ, Lannister, Baratheon, Arryn. 

I had a quick scan at the Lannister section. Definitely a pregnant looking person there. I can't believe I've never watched this history of Westeros thing before. I have never bought the DVDs and probably thought it was just some show type thing but its got brilliant wee gems for book readers. 

I read a bit about Lann, Bran, Durran and Garth and these Age of heroes characters are all connected in some way and if it's time loops that are happening these names are knee deep in the events every time I think. 

So on the Bran the builder bit at the start, what did you think of the man being carried? A crippled grown up Bran/Brandon the builder directing the building of the wall perhaps? 

[Melifeather]

I haven't watched yet, but am wondering...are these four the origins of each house? Lann for Lannister lion, Bran Stark wolf, Durran (Storm lord) stag, and Garth (Reach) rose. They likely set the stage for the wheel. Durran has been of interest to me lately, because it's his origin story that introduces magic into the human gene pool. I was thinking it was a symbolic tale, an oral history of when the Children took magic from the realm and sealed it behind a door, its hinges warded to keep it sealed. Elenei herself was magic, and her parents the gods of wind and waves. When she was sealed underground she became the Drowned god. It's just a theory I've been exploring.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I had a quick scan at the Lannister section. Definitely a pregnant looking person there. I can't believe I've never watched this history of Westeros thing before. I have never bought the DVDs and probably thought it was just some show type thing but its got brilliant wee gems for book readers. 

I read a bit about Lann, Bran, Durran and Garth and these Age of heroes characters are all connected in some way and if it's time loops that are happening these names are knee deep in the events every time I think. 

So on the Bran the builder bit at the start, what did you think of the man being carried? A crippled grown up Bran/Brandon the builder directing the building of the wall perhaps? 

I know right. This Lann Sister thing started as a joke,  because I thought names like BranDON and DurranDON, could be short for Bran's son, and Durran's son. I haven't found anything that supports this, no pattern in different houses, except the Lann Sister, and I thought it was funny. Then when Tywin in the video mentioned the female line, I thought 'hey, maybe there's more to this theory than just silliness ', and then the camera zoomed in on that pregnant belly, and I was like NO WAY!

I actually stumbled upon this video on YouTube after I watched the first 2 seasons of the show,  and felt like I needed to understand it better. I got totally confused by all this history (King Mern WHO?! Doom of Valyria WHUT?!),  and decided to read the books. This video basically made me read the books,  but I didn't understand any of it... Now It's so much more interesting! 

I need to watch the video again for the Bran being carried thing,  I missed that. 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I haven't watched yet, but am wondering...are these four the origins of each house? Lann for Lannister lion, Bran Stark wolf, Durran (Storm lord) stag, and Garth (Reach) rose. They likely set the stage for the wheel. Durran has been of interest to me lately, because it's his origin story that introduces magic into the human gene pool. I was thinking it was a symbolic tale, an oral history of when the Children took magic from the realm and sealed it behind a door, its hinges warded to keep it sealed. Elenei herself was magic, and her parents the gods of wind and waves. When she was sealed underground she became the Drowned god. It's just a theory I've been exploring.

The Gardeners had a green hand as their sigil,  the Baratheons took the arms and words of the Durrandons indeed. Does this help? 

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I haven't watched yet, but am wondering...are these four the origins of each house? Lann for Lannister lion, Bran Stark wolf, Durran (Storm lord) stag, and Garth (Reach) rose. They likely set the stage for the wheel. Durran has been of interest to me lately, because it's his origin story that introduces magic into the human gene pool. I was thinking it was a symbolic tale, an oral history of when the Children took magic from the realm and sealed it behind a door, its hinges warded to keep it sealed. Elenei herself was magic, and her parents the gods of wind and waves. When she was sealed underground she became the Drowned god. It's just a theory I've been exploring.

These four names are massive when it comes to the Age of heroes. I'm making a point of searching their names for clues, hints, similarities in our story etc. 

What I'm gathering is that Garth Greenhand seems slightly apart from this other lot. In some stories he came first and walked the land as the only man with the CoTf and the Giants, other tales say he led the first men across Dorne to Westeros, others that he's a god. His first child was apparently Garth Gardener who began house Gardener. It's also said he had many children who went on to have their own children who were Bran the builder and Lann etc. 

Other tales however have him as simply a contemporary of the other characters like Bran, Lann etc. 

As to Durran, perhaps it's not always him who introduces magic to the human gene pool. Or maybe he did in one time loop but it happened another way in another, and that is what the problem is in the first place. Men merging with magic is not doing the world any favours. 

[Macgregor of the North]

3 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I could see that but when Bran wargs into his wolf or Hodor it's not like they lose the ability to walk so I don't see it being he is crippled due to Bran time-traveling. There's lots of stories of mythical heroes being carried around in palanquains, carriages, etc. It's possible it is an unintentional side effect of replicating the Breaking. Certain characters fill certain roles and the actions associated with those roles. I have noticed a recurring mention of someone jumping from a metaphorical tower/cliff and breaking one or both of their legs just as Bran was thrown.

I was thinking that it's not that Bran is skinchanging Bran the builder in the past, but that our Bran Stark actually becomes Brandon the builder in the present in every time loop and rebuilds WF and the Wall, or guides it. crippled legs and all.

[Macgregor of the North]

7 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I know right. This Lann Sister thing started as a joke,  because I thought names like BranDON and DurranDON, could be short for Bran's son, and Durran's son. I haven't found anything that supports this, no pattern in different houses, except the Lann Sister, and I thought it was funny. Then when Tywin in the video mentioned the female line, I thought 'hey, maybe there's more to this theory than just silliness ', and then the camera zoomed in on that pregnant belly, and I was like NO WAY!

I actually stumbled upon this video on YouTube after I watched the first 2 seasons of the show,  and felt like I needed to understand it better. I got totally confused by all this history (King Mern WHO?! Doom of Valyria WHUT?!),  and decided to read the books. This video basically made me read the books,  but I didn't understand any of it... Now It's so much more interesting! 

I need to watch the video again for the Bran being carried thing,  I missed that. 

The Gardeners had a green hand as their sigil,  the Baratheons took the arms and words of the Durrandons indeed. Does this help? 

I had saw these videos on YouTube also but never watched them as I thought, well I read the books, I'll pick up all the history I need from them on continuous rereads but I wish I'd made the time to watch it as its got brilliant sneaky bits like the ones were discussing. I'm gonna watch it all at one point and really take note. 

Good catch on the Lann bit. The person is pregnant I'm quite convinced.

Go to 3:24 on the YouTube vid and check Bran the builder. 

I'm thinking this is possibly our story Bran Stark, grown older during the devastation of the long night, carried around guiding the rebuilding process after every time loop. Possibly.

 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

6 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

That's a pretty cool idea, haven't heard that before. I don't see the belly though, the picture is cut off at the arms in all depictions I've found but I do see that shirt is really frilly and has shadows below where some breasts would be poking out. We have seen Arya pass herself off as a boy so it can make some sense and the garth story could just be a mistelling of the actual manner Lann took the Casterlys: by passing herself off as one of their own. Not sure how Lann could hide being a female while being pregnant though, that part starts to stretch plausibility.

I mean the part about house Lannisters that's near the end of the video,  it's shown like a stained glass window, and the voice is Tywin's. There's a bit at the start about Lann the Clever as well,  where he looks like a man. 

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

So on the Bran the builder bit at the start, what did you think of the man being carried? A crippled grown up Bran/Brandon the builder directing the building of the wall perhaps? 

I don't think every Bran is the same Bran, but I think there may have been more crippled (in one way or another) Brandons who developed powers thanks to their disability. Perhaps a disability is necessary to become a Brandon the Builder type Brandon.

There's definitely someone being carried there,  and the Wall seems like a strange place to go around your business in a litter or palanquin, and the starks are not the type for that anyway. 

[Macgregor of the North]

Just now, Cowboy Dan said:

Oh we're talking Bran as a literal time traveler here? I'm not sure I can buy that one until it actually happens in the books.

It's hard to explain all this kind of stuff. I was thinking 'maybe' that on every time loop, Bran Stark is actually Bran the builder. He is not travelling back in time to be him, he becomes him in the present and always does become him. 

He is the one who guides the rebuild every time possibly and he knows WF so well when he climbs because he helped build it so many times. He also knows what to do everytime because he spends his youth each time loop being schooled on the story of Bran the builder by Old Nan. 

He hears the stories of himself so knows what he must do each time. I don't wanna ramble on. Do you see sense in any of this? 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

5 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

 

I don't think every Bran is the same Bran, but I think there may have been more crippled (in one way or another) Brandons who developed powers thanks to their disability. Perhaps a disability is necessary to become a Brandon the Builder type Brandon.

There's definitely someone being carried there,  and the Wall seems like a strange place to go around your business in a litter or palanquin, and the starks are not the type for that anyway. 

Yeah I don't think every Bran is the same Bran either.

Here goes. Every time loop it's important that Bran the Builder is found to guide the rebuild process. Our Bran Stark is always him and it's always the same maybe, but we are reading the time loop that will be different to make a different outcome from the usual rebuild. And it may be different because we will actually read on page Bran possibly affecting the past? Putting things in place for this loop to break or change or end (who knows). 

I like to do this sometimes, type out loud, don't take any of this as me saying Im believing it's certain, I'm just speculating.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

26 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

 

There's definitely someone being carried there,  and the Wall seems like a strange place to go around your business in a litter or palanquin, and the starks are not the type for that anyway. 

I thought the video was clear its Bran the builder being carried there. He is guiding things with a hand signal it seems. The man wears a crown also. Are we to take this as Brandon the builder becomes the first King of Winter and guides the rebuild of the Wall and WF?. 

AWOIAF:

" Legend says that Brandon the Builder raised Winterfell after the generation-long winter known as the Long Night to become the stronghold of his descendants, the Kings of Winter."

[Melifeather]

Couldn't Bran warg into a host in the past? 

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Oh yeah it makes sense I just don't see reincarnation as a point GRRM would use like that. If anything we've seen when someone is brought back they're drastically different even after small spans of death. Can't imagine what centuries or milennia would do. He wouldn't have a single memory from the present day.

I can see him transplanting his consciousness or speaking instructions through the trees, there's plenty of text to back those ideas of time travel up. It just doesn't really gel with the story so far or the ways we've seen magic used. The idea of the time loop as I see it is more that a person unknowingly repeats actions of another person in the same/similar role or situation at a different point in time. Like I pointed out earlier, Martin used the "history doesn't repeat but it rhymes." Your idea, while interesting, is one person repeating history literally and doesn't seem to fit GRRM's own word.

Yup I totally see your point mate and I'm not convinced myself by a long shot on what I'm saying. I do like to throw ideas out though and see if they can be built on, or denied etc and I enjoy putting ideas in the thread instead of just in my note book so I can read it all over later to see how it affected the discussion.

I do fully see what your saying that it doesn't fit with GRRMS word, but Bran Stark actually growing up to be Bran the builder everytime is just sticking with me right now.

" A seventh castle he raised, most massive of all. Some said the children of the forest helped him build it, shaping the stones with magic; others claimed that a small boy told him what he must do, a boy who would grow to be Bran the Builder". 

Now I believe on one of the time loops Bran tells this Durran through possibly trees etc like you say, how to build his fortress that becomes Storms end. 

But, I still think it's possible he goes on to grow up to be the actual Bran the builder who guides the rebuilding of the wall etc. and it's our Bran Stark who is the small boy, and Bran the builder. 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Couldn't Bran warg into a host in the past? 

I believe he may be powerful enough to do so, what if he does though and finds out he's skinchanged himself because he is Bran the builder. He is the small boy who helped Durran, and then went on to become Brandon the builder. 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

13 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Oh yeah it makes sense I just don't see reincarnation as a point GRRM would use like that. If anything we've seen when someone is brought back they're drastically different even after small spans of death. Can't imagine what centuries or milennia would do. He wouldn't have a single memory from the present day.

I can see him transplanting his consciousness or speaking instructions through the trees, there's plenty of text to back those ideas of time travel up. It just doesn't really gel with the story so far or the ways we've seen magic used. The idea of the time loop as I see it is more that a person unknowingly repeats actions of another person in the same/similar role or situation at a different point in time. Like I pointed out earlier, Martin used the "history doesn't repeat but it rhymes." Your idea, while interesting, is one person repeating history literally and doesn't seem to fit GRRM's own word.

I can sort of imagine something like this :

When the first Brandon the Builder died, part of his spirit lived on in an animal. 

Then much later there was another Brandon, who had an accident /fight that left him crippled,  and in a coma, and Brandon the Builder's spirit warged into this Brandon. And shop this repeats everytime a Brandon is crippled.

I think this is a bit too complicated though,  and I also think Bran would sense that he's warged. Although maybe because it happens in a coma,  he doesn't know,  because he was too weak to sense that he was warged during the coma. 

Interesting thoughts to play with. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

The Gardeners had a green hand as their sigil,  the Baratheons took the arms and words of the Durrandons indeed. Does this help? 

Thanks for correcting me on the Gardener's sigil. I had forgotten that. I don't think I expressed what I was thinking properly though, so I'll try again. What I was getting at was the wheel of time and thinking of it as setting up a cyvasse game. Lets say the wheel always plays a sequence of events. The only thing that changes are the people that play the game. Each House has their place on the wheel and it remains a constant, so the Starks are always in one place, the Lannisters in their spot, the Martells in theirs, and the Greyjoys in theirs. When I mentioned lion, wolf, stag, and rose I meant a set place on the wheel. Sometimes the name of the family would change as a banner house might take over the original such as when the Tyrells took over the Reach from the Gardeners, but they remain on the same place on the wheel. My inversion theory has to do with something changing on the wheel causing the House positions to change. Imagine the Martells are now sitting where the Lannister's once sat on the wheel. Now they are playing the game from the Lannister's original position. I know you probably are wondering where I'm going with this, but are you with me so far?

[Macgregor of the North]

Cheers for all comments to this point on the thread, Gotta rest my eyes now, gotta busy day tomorrow, I'll no doubt be pondering this topic a lot and I'll jump back on the forum over the weekend when I get time. 

@Feather Crystal, post up when you watch the video, let us know what you think on the Bran the builder bit. And all the other interesting gems. 

[Melifeather]

22 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Cheers for all comments to this point on the thread, Gotta rest my eyes now, gotta busy day tomorrow, I'll no doubt be pondering this topic a lot and I'll jump back on the forum over the weekend when I get time. 

@Feather Crystal, post up when you watch the video, let us know what you think on the Bran the builder bit. And all the other interesting gems. 

Ok! Will do!

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

Hey guys, totally off-topic, but I just wanted to say I really like this thread. I think we all have slightly different opinions and ideas,  but everyone is really open,  and interested. I myself find some of the ideas here a bit too farfetched, but I live to read about them,  and maybe by doing so I gain new insights,  which is cool! 

In so many threads people just try to disprove eachother's ideas,  and I think that really doesn't help anyone. 

So thanks for such a friendly, and interesting discussion! 

[Duncan_The_Short]

Hello all.  Thought this might be a good time for me to jump in to this thread.

@Feather Crystal

I was wondering if you've ever looked at how the actual Wars of the Roses fits in to your repeating cycle theory.  The Lancaster and York dynasties in fact fit really well into this theory.  Each dynasty flows through the same process.

Dynasty Founder - A shrewd political manipulator who deposes a weak king that was a minor when he took the throne. (Henry IV - Lancaster, Richard Duke of York - York)

Warrior Son - Son of the founder and a celebrated but short lived warrior who dies before his heir is grown (Henry V - Lancaster, Edward IV - York)

Weak Child King - Inherits the throne as a child and is used as a front for others who exercise power through them ( Henry VI - Lancaster, Edward V - York)

Interestingly the cycle is broken when Henry Tudor takes the throne and represents himself and his wife, Elizabeth of York, as the reunification of the Plantagenet line that was broken when Henry IV deposed Richard II.

I've also noticed that GRRM likes to split some historical figures into two characters in the book, a younger idealized version and an older less idealized one.  Robb Stark/Robert Baratheon as Edward IV, Ned Stark/Stannis Baratheon as Richard III, and Margery Tyrell/Cersei Lannister as Margaret of Anjou. I was wondering how you think this might fit in to your inversion theory. 

 

 

[Seams]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I haven't watched yet, but am wondering...are these four the origins of each house? Lann for Lannister lion, Bran Stark wolf, Durran (Storm lord) stag, and Garth (Reach) rose. They likely set the stage for the wheel. Durran has been of interest to me lately, because it's his origin story that introduces magic into the human gene pool. I was thinking it was a symbolic tale, an oral history of when the Children took magic from the realm and sealed it behind a door, its hinges warded to keep it sealed. Elenei herself was magic, and her parents the gods of wind and waves. When she was sealed underground she became the Drowned god. It's just a theory I've been exploring.

I like this. I came across a line a few days ago that intrigued me anew. Theon has just learned the name of his sister's longship:

Theon did not need to be told that Black Wind was Asha's longship. He had not seen his sister in ten years, but that much he knew of her. Odd that she would call it that, when Robb Stark had a wolf named Grey Wind. "Stark is grey and Greyjoy's black," he murmured, smiling, "but it seems we're both windy." (Clash, Theon I)

This could be an example of your inversion at work (although this is a regular Theon chapter): black (stark) is grey and grey(joy) is black.

But it's the "we're both windy" line that caught my eye. Your mention of the god of wind, and of magic entering the human gene pool through Elenei, made me think that maybe wind is a code word for magic. When Khal Drogo gives Dany her horse, she says he has given her the wind. Robert Baratheon's parents die when the ship Windproud foundered in a storm within sight of Storm's End. (Sounds like revenge from the God of Wind, even after all these years.) Osha tells Bran that the Old Gods speak to him through winds.

Maybe we'll know more when TWoW blows our way....