Who is responsible for a Game of Thrones?

[Nitisha]

Was it Catelyn when she kidnapped Tyrion, or was it Edddard Stark when he left for Kings Landing? Was it Cersei, who mothered three bastards and killed Robert Baratheon? Was it Jaime when he killed Aerys or was it the mad King himself, when he let Lannister troops into kings landing in Roberts rebellion?

which event, had it not happened according to you,would have never resulted in a 'a song of ice and fire series'which all of us love to read so much!

 

[The hairy bear]

When the story starts, Stannis has already retreated to Dragonstone to gather his forces, and Littlefinger and Varys are convinced that the question is not whether the war will start, but when.

So I would say that the war was inevitable from the moment Cersei refused to have children with Robert. If only she had mothered at some time a black-haired baby, her whole incestuous affair may have go unnoticed and the war avoided.

[aadam13]

One you missed was Peytr Baelish killing Jon Arryn who was keeping the 7 kingdoms together.

[Lion of the West]

I don't think a single event made or unmade the War of Five Kings but a combination of them and having the "right" people in the "right" places. There were many times when the march to war could have been avoided but for one reason or another the people in position to make a decision decided to move closer to a military rather than a diplomatic solution.

[Drekinn]

Jaime pushing Bran out of the window, which eventually lead to Cat kidnapping Tyrion, after which Tywin started purging the Riverlands. There are a LOT of other factors such as Littlefinger and Varys manipulating stuff behind the scenes but the first I mentioned are the most significant imo.

[Lychnidos]

There is a lot of contributing events as others have pointed, but to answer you question which event is absolutely needed for the war to start that in my opinion is the dead of Robert. While he is alive, no matter his incompetence, no side has the power to defy him in open war, the Stormlands, the Riverlands, the North, and even the Vale lords who will most likely defy Lysa if he commands, are with him.

[Nitisha]

I think it was Rhaegar Targaryen,had he not kidnapped Lyanna Stark the realm would have been in peace. 

 

[Lord Wraith]

No one thing started it. However Cersei not providing Robert an heir meant that war was inevitable. Without a heir there would be a succession crisis and thus war. So Cersei doing that and killing Robert.

[Ser Ronan Storm]

The biggest single factor for war breaking out was Stannis and Jon Arryn keeping mum on the truth of Cersei's children in order to gather more proof/spare Robert's feelings. Whether or not Jon still gets murdered, Stannis being open with Ned from the start would have created an entirely different resolution to the events following Robert's death. Lannisters do not seize power, and Renly, Littlefinger and Varys are left to come up with other ways to create chaos in the realm.

[Lion of the West]

1 hour ago, Ser Ronan Storm said:

The biggest single factor for war breaking out was Stannis and Jon Arryn keeping mum on the truth of Cersei's children in order to gather more proof/spare Robert's feelings. Whether or not Jon still gets murdered, Stannis being open with Ned from the start would have created an entirely different resolution to the events following Robert's death. Lannisters do not seize power, and Renly, Littlefinger and Varys are left to come up with other ways to create chaos in the realm.

How about the Lannisters and Tyrells rebel out of self-preservation when Stannis takes the throne, that Lysa is told by Littlefinger to stay put, Dorne does nothing at all and Renly most likely add the Stormlords to the Tyrells? While Balon probably crowns himself again. Lots of chaos is coming up for Westeros.

[Ser Ronan Storm]

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

How about the Lannisters and Tyrells rebel out of self-preservation when Stannis takes the throne, that Lysa is told by Littlefinger to stay put, Dorne does nothing at all and Renly most likely add the Stormlords to the Tyrells? While Balon probably crowns himself again. Lots of chaos is coming up for Westeros.

It is entirely possible that Littlefinger would've maneuvered the Tyrells into creating the same scenarios that came to pass in the books anyways. If Stannis did take the Throne, Renly couldn't credibly rebel (on what grounds could he be king when Stannis is the elder brother, aside from his bullshit "I'm more likeable!" line?). Renly could try to rebel, gathering the armies of the Stormlands and possibly the Reach to oust his older brother...but then it becomes total war. We'd have Stannis's forces, the Northmen, and the Riverland forces all uniting against Renly, Tywin and maybe the Tyrells. With Ned still alive, he and Catelyn may have pleaded for the Vale to join them. Ned knows many of the Lords and Ladies there. I'm sure that even if Lysa tried to sit the war out, with Ned alive, the Vale would have acted against Lysa's authority and marched for the Starks and Tullys.

Dorne would indeed have remained neutral in this conflict. They hate Baratheons and they hate Lannisters, so their best revenge is refusing to aid either side.

The Tyrells may have made an alliance with the Lannisters...but maybe not. If Stannis had taken the Throne after Robert's death, we can assume he wouldn't allow Cersei and her children to leave the city. Maybe Cersei is executed or maybe she isn't. I don't see Stannis killing children, but he would likely keep Joffrey and his siblings as hostages. Stannis would also send for Edric Storm, and probably bring out Gendry and the other bastards to prove the hair color thing. Meanwhile, Tywin and company, if sought to fight against Stannis, would have to claim that Joffrey was the rightful king the whole time that Stannis is educating people in the capital and beyond on the truth.

Tywin couldn't attack King's Landing or else Stannis would put Cersei and the "rightful king" to death. Would the Tyrells still join the Lannister at that point? Renly would be the only traitor who could actually make a move, because he doesn't care about Joffrey or Stannis. Tywin might well attack Renly's forces to keep Renly from endangering the lives of Cersei and her children. The Tyrells couldn't form an alliance with Tywin, because Stannis has Joffrey, so who would Marg marry? They could side with Tywin anyway, but then Renly had better side with Stannis & Ned, or else he only has a few Stormlands houses to back him against giant armies on either side. The Tyrells could marry Renly and support his rebellion, but the Tywin would likely attack them instead of Stannis/Ned. Basically, if Stannis had seized the Throne immediately after Robert's death, Tywin could still war against someone or everyone, but there'd be no way for him to climb to the top of the feudal hierarchy no matter if he won his battles or not.

Sorry if this is sounding more like a rant...I'll just reiterate my belief here that the biggest factor in the War of Five Kings playing out like it has in the books is Stannis's absence. If he'd been present through Ned's adventures in King's Landing in the first book, everything would have turned out differently. Still chaotic, most likely, but very different.

[Nitisha]

On 20 July 2016 at 2:22 PM, Ser Ronan Storm said:

It is entirely possible that Littlefinger would've maneuvered the Tyrells into creating the same scenarios that came to pass in the books anyways. If Stannis did take the Throne, Renly couldn't credibly rebel (on what grounds could he be king when Stannis is the elder brother, aside from his bullshit "I'm more likeable!" line?). Renly could try to rebel, gathering the armies of the Stormlands and possibly the Reach to oust his older brother...but then it becomes total war. We'd have Stannis's forces, the Northmen, and the Riverland forces all uniting against Renly, Tywin and maybe the Tyrells. With Ned still alive, he and Catelyn may have pleaded for the Vale to join them. Ned knows many of the Lords and Ladies there. I'm sure that even if Lysa tried to sit the war out, with Ned alive, the Vale would have acted against Lysa's authority and marched for the Starks and Tullys.

Dorne would indeed have remained neutral in this conflict. They hate Baratheons and they hate Lannisters, so their best revenge is refusing to aid either side.

The Tyrells may have made an alliance with the Lannisters...but maybe not. If Stannis had taken the Throne after Robert's death, we can assume he wouldn't allow Cersei and her children to leave the city. Maybe Cersei is executed or maybe she isn't. I don't see Stannis killing children, but he would likely keep Joffrey and his siblings as hostages. Stannis would also send for Edric Storm, and probably bring out Gendry and the other bastards to prove the hair color thing. Meanwhile, Tywin and company, if sought to fight against Stannis, would have to claim that Joffrey was the rightful king the whole time that Stannis is educating people in the capital and beyond on the truth.

Tywin couldn't attack King's Landing or else Stannis would put Cersei and the "rightful king" to death. Would the Tyrells still join the Lannister at that point? Renly would be the only traitor who could actually make a move, because he doesn't care about Joffrey or Stannis. Tywin might well attack Renly's forces to keep Renly from endangering the lives of Cersei and her children. The Tyrells couldn't form an alliance with Tywin, because Stannis has Joffrey, so who would Marg marry? They could side with Tywin anyway, but then Renly had better side with Stannis & Ned, or else he only has a few Stormlands houses to back him against giant armies on either side. The Tyrells could marry Renly and support his rebellion, but the Tywin would likely attack them instead of Stannis/Ned. Basically, if Stannis had seized the Throne immediately after Robert's death, Tywin could still war against someone or everyone, but there'd be no way for him to climb to the top of the feudal hierarchy no matter if he won his battles or not.

Sorry if this is sounding more like a rant...I'll just reiterate my belief here that the biggest factor in the War of Five Kings playing out like it has in the books is Stannis's absence. If he'd been present through Ned's adventures in King's Landing in the first book, everything would have turned out differently. Still chaotic, most likely, but very different.

But Stannis was the proud one!

In the beginning of clash of kings, maester  cressen advises stannis to join forces with Robb Stark, but Melisandre and Selyse persuade him not to. Stannis Baratheon's ships and Robb's forces would have changed the war.

[Langsax]

It seems the kingdom had been at odds with itself for a long, long time.  The Game of Thrones was an ongoing series of alignments, cabals, plots, entanglements and conflict, for as long as the kingdom had existed.

What we are reading about here, was just the latest iteration of the conflict.  Pretty much like things have been for as long as we can back track human history.

[Bironic]

On 25.7.2016 at 4:40 PM, Langsax said:

It seems the kingdom had been at odds with itself for a long, long time.  The Game of Thrones was an ongoing series of alignments, cabals, plots, entanglements and conflict, for as long as the kingdom had existed.

What we are reading about here, was just the latest iteration of the conflict.  Pretty much like things have been for as long as we can back track human history.

Pretty much this. Especiallly if you are refering to the "Game" in general.

But you can say that open warfare started with Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion. That was the casus belli for the Lannisters. You could argue that it started with Cersei cuckolding Robert, or with LF and Lysa murdering Jon Arryn, or with Jaime and Joffrey attempting to kill Bran. But all those incidents didn't have witnesses, there was no proof for any of these actions. While the arrest of Tyrion was in front of a house full of witnesses. So open hostilities started there.

[Lion of the West]

On 2016-07-20 at 10:52 AM, Ser Ronan Storm said:

It is entirely possible that Littlefinger would've maneuvered the Tyrells into creating the same scenarios that came to pass in the books anyways. If Stannis did take the Throne, Renly couldn't credibly rebel (on what grounds could he be king when Stannis is the elder brother, aside from his bullshit "I'm more likeable!" line?). Renly could try to rebel, gathering the armies of the Stormlands and possibly the Reach to oust his older brother...but then it becomes total war. We'd have Stannis's forces, the Northmen, and the Riverland forces all uniting against Renly, Tywin and maybe the Tyrells. With Ned still alive, he and Catelyn may have pleaded for the Vale to join them. Ned knows many of the Lords and Ladies there. I'm sure that even if Lysa tried to sit the war out, with Ned alive, the Vale would have acted against Lysa's authority and marched for the Starks and Tullys.

Dorne would indeed have remained neutral in this conflict. They hate Baratheons and they hate Lannisters, so their best revenge is refusing to aid either side.

The Tyrells may have made an alliance with the Lannisters...but maybe not. If Stannis had taken the Throne after Robert's death, we can assume he wouldn't allow Cersei and her children to leave the city. Maybe Cersei is executed or maybe she isn't. I don't see Stannis killing children, but he would likely keep Joffrey and his siblings as hostages. Stannis would also send for Edric Storm, and probably bring out Gendry and the other bastards to prove the hair color thing. Meanwhile, Tywin and company, if sought to fight against Stannis, would have to claim that Joffrey was the rightful king the whole time that Stannis is educating people in the capital and beyond on the truth.

Tywin couldn't attack King's Landing or else Stannis would put Cersei and the "rightful king" to death. Would the Tyrells still join the Lannister at that point? Renly would be the only traitor who could actually make a move, because he doesn't care about Joffrey or Stannis. Tywin might well attack Renly's forces to keep Renly from endangering the lives of Cersei and her children. The Tyrells couldn't form an alliance with Tywin, because Stannis has Joffrey, so who would Marg marry? They could side with Tywin anyway, but then Renly had better side with Stannis & Ned, or else he only has a few Stormlands houses to back him against giant armies on either side. The Tyrells could marry Renly and support his rebellion, but the Tywin would likely attack them instead of Stannis/Ned. Basically, if Stannis had seized the Throne immediately after Robert's death, Tywin could still war against someone or everyone, but there'd be no way for him to climb to the top of the feudal hierarchy no matter if he won his battles or not.

Sorry if this is sounding more like a rant...I'll just reiterate my belief here that the biggest factor in the War of Five Kings playing out like it has in the books is Stannis's absence. If he'd been present through Ned's adventures in King's Landing in the first book, everything would have turned out differently. Still chaotic, most likely, but very different.

For the first thing, given that the Vale lords didn't rebel when Eddard was executed and Tywin marched all over the Riverlands, I fail to see why they would rebel if Eddard is alive. Its not that him being killed was a lesser provocation than him fighting the Lannisters.

And I must say that you don't seem to know the Tyrells and Tywin. If you recall the epsiode when Lady Tarbeck captured three Lannisters you'll know that Tywin isn't going to back down just because Stannis has hostages, killing the hostages will only cement Tywin's desire for Stannis' destruction, and if you recall there's Tommen so no problem with a marriage between Tommen and Margaery. And to that the Tyrells have already shown they are perfectly ready to kill off Stannis' men and fight him so I don't see why they would hold back in this scenario. If Stannis makes a lightening raid to capture King's Landing and proceed to harm his hostages Tywin is more likely to declare for Renly than he is to back down to Stannis.

[Protagoras]

Lets see - someone gets Lysa to poison her husband (aka The guy that currently holds Westeros together), and then leave Kings Landing but not before sending a letter to her sister warning that the Lannisters "killed her husband."

Then said someone manipulates Catelyn into believing Tyrion tried to kill Bran, pushing Starks and Lannisters in a position of almost war from a very dangerous chain reaction, which includes Tyrions capture and the ravisment of the Riverlands by "brigands". 

Then someone continues to press Ned about finding out what Jon Arryn died for, even though he knows all along that the Baratheon children are bastards from Jaime and uses said bastards in a game known as "how much can I get out of this". He even introduces Barra just when Ned wants to leave. 

Then someone places the idea in Joffrey's head that it would be better to kill Ned than to let him repent his treason and go to the Wall. We know this was neither Cersei nor Varys who convinced him this. 

Most likely someone also convinced Stannis about this incest too earlier. I for one certainly don´t think Stannis thought out that himself. 

The rest follows from this - Renly and Balon jumping on the opportunity train after the chaos caused by the situation. 

So someone have used every opportunity to purposefully manipulate events toward chaos. and to create a volatile situation. Wonder who that person could be? Sure, if Jaime and Cersei hadn't passed their children off as Robert's this wouldn´t have happened but I don´t doubt said someone would use something else to create the same chaos.  

Of course others are to blame too - there is a wonderful supporting cast here that made that Someones job easier, but in the end they are just supporting cast. Maybe you can blame them for letting so much fuel gather, but in the end you have to blame the person that lit the match and threw it on the kindling, not the wood itself. The support cast didn´t want this war and the chaos that followed - but Someone did. 

[Nitisha]

On 3 August 2016 at 9:32 PM, Protagoras said:

Lets see - someone gets Lysa to poison her husband (aka The guy that currently holds Westeros together), and then leave Kings Landing but not before sending a letter to her sister warning that the Lannisters "killed her husband."

Then said someone manipulates Catelyn into believing Tyrion tried to kill Bran, pushing Starks and Lannisters in a position of almost war from a very dangerous chain reaction, which includes Tyrions capture and the ravisment of the Riverlands by "brigands". 

Then someone continues to press Ned about finding out what Jon Arryn died for, even though he knows all along that the Baratheon children are bastards from Jaime and uses said bastards in a game known as "how much can I get out of this". He even introduces Barra just when Ned wants to leave. 

Then someone places the idea in Joffrey's head that it would be better to kill Ned than to let him repent his treason and go to the Wall. We know this was neither Cersei nor Varys who convinced him this. 

Most likely someone also convinced Stannis about this incest too earlier. I for one certainly don´t think Stannis thought out that himself. 

The rest follows from this - Renly and Balon jumping on the opportunity train after the chaos caused by the situation. 

So someone have used every opportunity to purposefully manipulate events toward chaos. and to create a volatile situation. Wonder who that person could be? Sure, if Jaime and Cersei hadn't passed their children off as Robert's this wouldn´t have happened but I don´t doubt said someone would use something else to create the same chaos.  

Of course others are to blame too - there is a wonderful supporting cast here that made that Someones job easier, but in the end they are just supporting cast. Maybe you can blame them for letting so much fuel gather, but in the end you have to blame the person that lit the match and threw it on the kindling, not the wood itself. The support cast didn´t want this war and the chaos that followed - but Someone did. 

That someone is littlefinger!

[Lurid Jester]

Little finger and Lysa killing John which invariably brought Ned to KL. 

[Orphalesion]

On 20/07/2016 at 2:18 AM, Lord Wraith said:

No one thing started it. However Cersei not providing Robert an heir meant that war was inevitable. Without a heir there would be a succession crisis and thus war. So Cersei doing that and killing Robert.

Robert had three heirs; Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella (though no Queen ever sat the IT) With medieval technology there is no way to proof that they aren't his. Black haired people have had blonde children before.

I agree that Cersei is one of the people at fault for willfully failing to do her duty as a Queen, but so is Stannis for being a self-entitled little bitch, Twyin for his power brokering, Renly for his own schemes, the Tyrells for their schemes, Littlefinger for killing Jon Arryn, Lysa for helping Littlefinger, Robert for being a drunken mess etc. etc. etc. 

The list of guilty parties is long, very long. Just like with almost all real life wars.

[Protagoras]

On 2016-08-16 at 3:33 PM, Nitisha said:

That someone is littlefinger!

Someone won a prize, I see