firepoet

The Mummer's Dragon

29 posts in this topic

Dany was warned to not trust the "mummer's dragon" which we take to refer to Aegon. Now I agree it refers to Aegon, but I see a lot of people use it as evidence that Aegon is fake. A mummer is an actor, so they translate "mummer's Dragon" to mean someone pretending to be a Targ. But that isn't right is it? The dragon is Aegon yes, but the Mummer is Varys. He's a trained actor. So Mummer's Dragon translates to "Targaryen who is owned by an actor." It doesn't state one way or the other whether Aegon is real or not. 

Just something I see a lot, and thought it needed to be corrected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

True.

I lean towards - just because he is the Mummer's dragon (ie: Varys' show Dragon) doesn't necessarily mean he's a Targ from the last ruling line of them, let alone Rhaegars son Aegon.

Although i am positive that that is who Aegon believes he is. So, i guess that's where it gets confusing. He's both (IMO) Varys' Dragon (a Blackfyre or Brightflame or a mix of both)  and a false claimant to the throne.

Edited by Arya_Stupid!
Clarification

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we please stop naming someone "False Claimant"? Aegon took Westeros by force, Robert took the throne by force. The "True Claimant" is not somebody that was born by some woman or man, it is the one that takes it by force. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is possible he has no Targ blood and just has the looks.  Lots of people in the free cities have Targ features.

Dual meanings in phrasing from GRRM would not be unexpected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Aegon is real, and I think he's actually the sun's son (his mother is Elia martell)

I think the Mummer's dragon is quentin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whether or not Aegon is a genuine Targ, I think the important thing is that he is under someone else's control and that he, as Dany points out, "...give(s) the heroes something to fight."

Edited by hiemal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/13/2016 at 7:44 AM, firepoet said:

Dany was warned to not trust the "mummer's dragon" which we take to refer to Aegon. Now I agree it refers to Aegon, but I see a lot of people use it as evidence that Aegon is fake. A mummer is an actor, so they translate "mummer's Dragon" to mean someone pretending to be a Targ. But that isn't right is it? The dragon is Aegon yes, but the Mummer is Varys. He's a trained actor. So Mummer's Dragon translates to "Targaryen who is owned by an actor." It doesn't state one way or the other whether Aegon is real or not. 

Just something I see a lot, and thought it needed to be corrected.

Prophecy and visions often can have a number of meanings. This particular one works weather you think he is real or not. Combine this with how the author speaks about prophecy and it seems like it is just there to confuse the reader. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think there is any way for us to know yet.  There are points to both sides of Aegon being a Targ and him being a fake.  All as of now require guessing at what different prophecies and "signs" mean.  I can easily see the evidence for both Aegon being a Targ (ie mummer's dragon = Varys' Targ) or him being a fake of some sort (mummer's dragon = fake dragon/Targ).

For him being a Targ, I don't think it is as far fetched as some for Varys to have switched him out.  How many people would have been around baby Aegon enough to REALLY would be able to tell a baby with similar features from the real one.  And of the ones with that would, wouldn't most of them be loyal to House Targ?  Plus I don't think the baby had to be crushed for the plan to work.  The fake baby would have just had to fool enough people long enough for the real Aegon to get safely out of KL and to someone loyal to the Targs.  Even if Elia the children aren't killed and KL is taken, she could say that is her baby, and outside potentially Jaime, who else would be loyal to the new king and be able to tell the difference?  And even then if they didn't believe her, Aegon would be out of KL and safe, and waiting to return some day in the future.  Also I don't see the value of Varys speech to a dying Kevan if he was lying.

For him to be fake, I can see the feelings on that as well.  How easily in KL is it to truly find a baby of the right age with Targ type features?  The sign that washes up.  Varys in his speech to Kevan I don't think he ever does specifically say Aegon is Rhaegar's child.  Seems too convenient.  The Blackfyre line is only stopped in the male line, so the Golden Company being traditionally Blackfyre supporters shows he could be a Blackfyre through the female line.  

So really can see it playing out either way.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am going to go with he is the actual Aegon until it is proved otherwise. I have posted elsewhere that it would not be hard for Varys to perform a baby switch then kill the only witness to it.

I also speculate that Dany is not going to go to Westeros and Aegon is taking her place in the conquest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the time of the HotU prophecy AND still at the time of Quaithe's warning Dany of the 'mummer's dragon', Connington was posing as Griff and Aegon as Young Griff. Both were mummers. The interpretation is straightforward.

People usually ignore this and refer to Varys instead because they want to construct a clue for the Blackfyre theory. That's making clues to fit a theory, not making a theory to fit the clues.

But relax: even if the mummer's dragon was meant straightforward that does not rule the Blackfyre theory out. You are still good. Aegon can be real or he can be a Blackfyre descendant. It's just that we don't have proof either way yet.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎03‎.‎09‎.‎2016 at 10:26 PM, the Scorpion Knight said:

I think Aegon is real, and I think he's actually the sun's son (his mother is Elia martell)

I think the Mummer's dragon is quentin

I think the sun's son, that is Quenty Martell. Which connection to a mummer do you make for Quentyn Martell?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quentyn posed as a mercenary and took a false name. So he was technically a 'mummer', as were his companions.

And since Quentin has some drops of Targ blood I suppose calling him a 'mummer's dragon' would be possible.

It seems a little counterintuitive. But maybe that's just me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 13.7.2016 at 4:44 PM, firepoet said:

Dany was warned to not trust the "mummer's dragon" which we take to refer to Aegon. Now I agree it refers to Aegon, but I see a lot of people use it as evidence that Aegon is fake. A mummer is an actor, so they translate "mummer's Dragon" to mean someone pretending to be a Targ. But that isn't right is it? The dragon is Aegon yes, but the Mummer is Varys. He's a trained actor. So Mummer's Dragon translates to "Targaryen who is owned by an actor." It doesn't state one way or the other whether Aegon is real or not. 

Just something I see a lot, and thought it needed to be corrected.

I think the reason people connect "mummer's dragon" with Aegon being a fake is Dany's vision of a "cloth dragon swaying on a pole" (which we take as a metaphor for fake dragon). This is later connected with the mummer's dragon, because of the theatre-metaphors. I agree that there might not be enough evidence to prove/disprove this link, and I think it is great that you are questioning theories that are so common and widespread that they have become "facts" to us. At the same time, I agree with @jrod - there is no way to know for sure yet, all we can do is to examine clues. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, SisterWithoutBanners said:

I think the reason people connect "mummer's dragon" with Aegon being a fake is Dany's vision of a "cloth dragon swaying on a pole" (which we take as a metaphor for fake dragon). This is later connected with the mummer's dragon, because of the theatre-metaphors. I agree that there might not be enough evidence to prove/disprove this link, and I think it is great that you are questioning theories that are so common and widespread that they have become "facts" to us. At the same time, I agree with @jrod - there is no way to know for sure yet, all we can do is to examine clues. 

I haven't taken a lot of interest in the chapter in the HotU, other than to note Drogon wasn't influenced by the warlocks' mummery and got Dany out of there before worse can happen.

It's odd you should mention the "mummer's dragon"=fAegon as being a widespread theory. I had no notion that was commonly considered as a viable theory here.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I haven't taken a lot of interest in the chapter in the HotU, other than to note Drogon wasn't influenced by the warlocks' mummery and got Dany out of there before worse can happen.

It's odd you should mention the "mummer's dragon"=fAegon as being a widespread theory. I had no notion that was commonly considered as a viable theory here.

 

Well, I could have gotten it wrong, this is just the impression I have after browsing the forums. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, SisterWithoutBanners said:

Well, I could have gotten it wrong, this is just the impression I have after browsing the forums. 

This forum?

In any case, what's your take on the mummer's dragon?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, mummer's dragon = Aegon is a common theory on this forum.

Considering that Aegon has been posing as Young Griff and that both JonCon and Varys could viably be described as mummers this idea makes sense. Also it would neatly fit with the Blackfyre theory.

Also hiemal in his post above may be right as what Dany actually sees in the HotU is a cloth dragon on poles as used by actors in a puppet theater:

On 15.9.2016 at 3:35 AM, hiemal said:

Whether or not Aegon is a genuine Targ, I think the important thing is that he is under someone else's control and that he, as Dany points out, "...give(s) the heroes something to fight."

Even if all of the above seems to fit together nicely that does not change the fact that it is just a theory. Which means it can turn out to be wrong or partly wrong.

What I have wondered for instance is, if the roles of Aegon and Dany were not originally reversed in the HotU prophecy?

See: What if not Aegon was originally meant as the 'cloth dragon on poles' meant to 'give the heroes something to fight' but rather Viserys and Dany were?

That would fit with the theory of Varys' and Illyrio having planned Viserys' Dothraki invasion of Westeros as a stalking horse for Aegon to later reveal himself and take control in the end.

It would be ironic that the story now seems to play out exactly the other way round since first Dany hatches dragons and then Tyrion messes up the original plan even more so that now Aegon and not Dany appears in Westeros first being the 'cloth dragon' the 'heroes' (Cersei et al lmao) fixate on and fight.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 16/09/2016 at 1:58 PM, jrod said:

I don't think there is any way for us to know yet.  There are points to both sides of Aegon being a Targ and him being a fake.  All as of now require guessing at what different prophecies and "signs" mean.  I can easily see the evidence for both Aegon being a Targ (ie mummer's dragon = Varys' Targ) or him being a fake of some sort (mummer's dragon = fake dragon/Targ).

For him being a Targ, I don't think it is as far fetched as some for Varys to have switched him out.  How many people would have been around baby Aegon enough to REALLY would be able to tell a baby with similar features from the real one.  And of the ones with that would, wouldn't most of them be loyal to House Targ?  Plus I don't think the baby had to be crushed for the plan to work.  The fake baby would have just had to fool enough people long enough for the real Aegon to get safely out of KL and to someone loyal to the Targs.  Even if Elia the children aren't killed and KL is taken, she could say that is her baby, and outside potentially Jaime, who else would be loyal to the new king and be able to tell the difference?  And even then if they didn't believe her, Aegon would be out of KL and safe, and waiting to return some day in the future.  Also I don't see the value of Varys speech to a dying Kevan if he was lying.

For him to be fake, I can see the feelings on that as well.  How easily in KL is it to truly find a baby of the right age with Targ type features?  The sign that washes up.  Varys in his speech to Kevan I don't think he ever does specifically say Aegon is Rhaegar's child.  Seems too convenient.  The Blackfyre line is only stopped in the male line, so the Golden Company being traditionally Blackfyre supporters shows he could be a Blackfyre through the female line.  

So really can see it playing out either way.  

wouldn t it be really easy to find a bastard from aerys and say it was aegon? from what I remember aerys didn t have a problem with sleeping with whoever he wanted... If varys wanted someone who had targ features it would be the easiest way...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 14.6.2017 at 7:11 PM, Prof. Cecily said:

This forum?

In any case, what's your take on the mummer's dragon?

Yeah, I've seen different threads on the cloth dragon or the mummers dragon as a sign that Aegon is fake. But these threads may not be representative for the community as a whole. 
Anyway, I'm not sure about the mummers dragon - could be referring to Aegon, but it could also be other characters or things. 
For example in Dunk and Egg. I'm so sorry, could not get the spoiler code to work, so I could not get into detail. But I think there might be a paralell to The Hedge Knight.
The prophecies could also be a red herring. So I really don't know, but I like reading theories about it. 

Edited by SisterWithoutBanners
Spoiler code not working

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now