firepoet

The Mummer's Dragon

29 posts in this topic

10 hours ago, SisterWithoutBanners said:

Yeah, I've seen different threads on the cloth dragon or the mummers dragon as a sign that Aegon is fake. But these threads may not be representative for the community as a whole. 
Anyway, I'm not sure about the mummers dragon - could be referring to Aegon, but it could also be other characters or things. 
For example in Dunk and Egg. I'm so sorry, could not get the spoiler code to work, so I could not get into detail. But I think there might be a paralell to The Hedge Knight.
The prophecies could also be a red herring. So I really don't know, but I like reading theories about it. 

I'm with you- I like reading theories about it, especially now that my copy of TKotSK has arrived!

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Well said OP,

But a mummer always uses a fake dragon in his plays. 

I just don't know, it could go either way. 

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On 2016-07-13 at 10:44 AM, firepoet said:

Dany was warned to not trust the "mummer's dragon" which we take to refer to Aegon. Now I agree it refers to Aegon, but I see a lot of people use it as evidence that Aegon is fake. A mummer is an actor, so they translate "mummer's Dragon" to mean someone pretending to be a Targ. But that isn't right is it? The dragon is Aegon yes, but the Mummer is Varys. He's a trained actor. So Mummer's Dragon translates to "Targaryen who is owned by an actor." It doesn't state one way or the other whether Aegon is real or not. 

Just something I see a lot, and thought it needed to be corrected.

Yes, I agree.  Quaithe's warning should also be viewed in the context of it's pairing with the Sun's Son.
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

"Are you here?"

"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

 

At least with Victarion and Moqorro, it's more obvious that the plot is afoot to steal a dragon.  How the others are paired together is less obvious except for the warning concerning the Undying who also wanted to capture a dragon.

Although Quentyn Martell attempted to take a dragon; he turned out to be something of a false lead after his demise.  I don't recall if his escapade resulted in the the release of the remaining two dragons or not. 

The warning implies agencies working together and I'm inclined to think that the sun's son is actually Tyrion.  Someone who has already manipulated Aegon into changing strategy. 

I'm guessing that the lion is Cersei conspiring with Connington at some point especially since the Mummer Varys is not finished with her at the end of DwD.

 

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On 26.6.2017 at 11:08 PM, Prof. Cecily said:

I'm with you- I like reading theories about it, especially now that my copy of TKotSK has arrived!

Yeah, Knight of the seven kingdoms is such a great book, and the novellas are giving really different types of stories from Westeros. And I love seeing the ASoIaF-world through different eyes and in different times, with a way lighter mood and tone!

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Posted (edited)

53 minutes ago, SisterWithoutBanners said:

Yeah, Knight of the seven kingdoms is such a great book, and the novellas are giving really different types of stories from Westeros. And I love seeing the ASoIaF-world through different eyes and in different times, with a way lighter mood and tone!

So do I.I wonder what the up-coming novella will be like!

An link to an article about a future publication is behind the spoiler tag.

 

Edited by Prof. Cecily

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On 2017-6-27 at 4:14 AM, LynnS said:

Quaithe's warning should also be viewed in the context of it's pairing with the Sun's Son.
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

"Are you here?"

"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

 

At least with Victarion and Moqorro, it's more obvious that the plot is afoot to steal a dragon.  How the others are paired together is less obvious except for the warning concerning the Undying who also wanted to capture a dragon.

I'm not sure that all these individuals are necessarily planning to steal a dragon, but yes they are all coming to Dany b/c she has dragons and they hope to benefit from this. 

The pairings are interesting: kraken and dark flame are Victarion and Moqorro, who are traveling together. Then come Tyrion the lion and JonCon the griffin, also on their way to Meereen at the time Quaithe says this. But then the mummer's dragon is not paired with them, but with the sun's son, who presumably is Quentin. Have we considered the possibility that Quentin's much more attractive traveling companion is the mummer's dragon? He may not even know it himself; maybe he is a Targ or Blackfyre bastard, but the whole Quentin story arc would make more sense if one of his companions ended up making a big splash, such as by unexpectedly riding a dragon...

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40 minutes ago, MaesterSam said:

I'm not sure that all these individuals are necessarily planning to steal a dragon, but yes they are all coming to Dany b/c she has dragons and they hope to benefit from this. 

The pairings are interesting: kraken and dark flame are Victarion and Moqorro, who are traveling together. Then come Tyrion the lion and JonCon the griffin, also on their way to Meereen at the time Quaithe says this. But then the mummer's dragon is not paired with them, but with the sun's son, who presumably is Quentin. Have we considered the possibility that Quentin's much more attractive traveling companion is the mummer's dragon? He may not even know it himself; maybe he is a Targ or Blackfyre bastard, but the whole Quentin story arc would make more sense if one of his companions ended up making a big splash, such as by unexpectedly riding a dragon...

On the surface, these pairings seem to point to those travelling together; but I question it because Tyrion soon leaves JonCon's company.  So could this be another 'lion' rather than Tyrion, one who poses a greater threat.  Cersei perhaps should she team up with JonCon.  We've seen her attempt to use her wiles on Ned offering him power.

The Kraken could easily be Euron, also a bigger threat that Victarion if you've read the Forsaken chapter.  It's also because Quentyn turns out to be less than threatening that I question whether he is the 'sun's son'.  I think that's more likely to be Tyrion who leaves Illyrio's manse using the Sunrise Gate; 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

They departed Pentos by the Sunrise Gate, though Tyrion Lannister never glimpsed the sunrise. "It will be as if you had never come to Pentos, my little friend," promised Magister Illyrio, as he drew shut the litter's purple velvet drapes. "No man must see you leave the city, as no man saw you enter."

 

And this from Mirri Maaz Duur:
Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

And when the bleak dawn broke over an empty horizon, Dany knew that he was truly lost to her. "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," she said sadly. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When my womb quickens again, and I bear a living child. Then you will return, my sun-and-stars, and not before."

 

Lannisters are often described as bright as the sun.   Cersie has also described herself once as a lion rather than a lioness. So a pairing of Tyrion and Aegon (Vary's dragon) would be formidable and Tyrion has already exercised some influence on Aegon by turning him east, rather than waiting to join up with Dany, subverting JonCon's plan.

Quaithe invokes the Undying, whose propechies of are shadows of things that may or may not be true, that may or may not occur.  So I questions Quaithe's warning with that view as well.

 

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

On the surface, these pairings seem to point to those travelling together; but I question it because Tyrion soon leaves JonCon's company.  So could this be another 'lion' rather than Tyrion, one who poses a greater threat.  Cersei perhaps should she team up with JonCon.  We've seen her attempt to use her wiles on Ned offering him power.

True- I guess I was assuming (with admittedly no evidence) that Quaithe could only see so far into the future. It seems that most other prophetic visions focus on the present (Bran's flying dream) or the near future (Ghost of High Heart predicting the Red Wedding, Mel seeing the Rangers with eyes cut out, Jon seeing a dead Grey Wind in the crypts, Jaime dreaming of Brienne asking about a bear, etc). It seems rare for a vision to be of a time many months or years into the future (though there are of course a few examples, not least of all Daenys the Dreamer who predicted the Doom several years in advance).

At the time that Quaithe appears to Dany, the pairings seem to fit well - except for the last one. That one doesn't fit at all, as Aegon as the mummer's dragon should be with the griffin - and in fact, he is still with the griffin now (and at no point crosses paths with any of the sun's son candidates) and at least presently not a threat to Dany at all. (Was he ever a threat? Was JonCon? I thought they wanted a wedding and alliance, and were offering her another army!)

As for Tyrion not being a big threat... this is probably true, but as I just said, neither were most of the others. We know from Quentin's POV that he did not intend to betray Dany or steal a dragon; he resorts to this only after she disappears and is believed dead, and even then he thinks this is a way to prove himself to her. Tyrion wanted to help her, because it was the best way to take revenge on Cersei. Aegon and Quentin both wanted a marriage alliance, and Moqorro thinks (presumably, since he is a red priest) that she is the champion of fire. One could argue that the only threat out of all of these is Victarion, but even he wants to marry her (though I doubt she would enjoy this), not harm her.

So bottom line, I think it's Quaithe who shouldn't be trusted by Dany. She is warning her against all would-be allies, and Dany does need allies if she wants to return to Westeros. 

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Quaithe invokes the Undying, whose propechies of are shadows of things that may or may not be true, that may or may not occur.  So I questions Quaithe's warning with that view as well.

I think when she says "remember the Undying", she is reminding Dany that everyone is after her power. The Undying tried to trick her into letting them drain her life force, and everyone else wants to be on her team when she wins the coming wars. Quaithe said this to her directly in Qarth, and apparently still means it: everyone will lust for the power she has birthed into the world. However, IMO, this doesn't mean that some of them couldn't turn out to be reliable allies. 

 

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Posted (edited)

On 14/07/2016 at 0:14 AM, firepoet said:

Dany was warned to not trust the "mummer's dragon" which we take to refer to Aegon. Now I agree it refers to Aegon, but I see a lot of people use it as evidence that Aegon is fake. A mummer is an actor, so they translate "mummer's Dragon" to mean someone pretending to be a Targ. But that isn't right is it? The dragon is Aegon yes, but the Mummer is Varys. He's a trained actor. So Mummer's Dragon translates to "Targaryen who is owned by an actor." It doesn't state one way or the other whether Aegon is real or not. 

Just something I see a lot, and thought it needed to be corrected.

This reminds me of the majesty of Martin bringing into the story, real life history of Perkin Warbeck, where a person comes in claiming and believing to be the real dynastic inheritor of the throne of England, due to their upbringing being lead by those around them with an interest in the crown, and groomed to believe in that right...only to be cast down as a fake.

I think the mummer's dragon could be Aegon, or it could be Varys, who both are theorized to be a Blackfyre, hence a descendant of the Targaryens and  a "mummer's dragon."

I also am aware of the baby swap that Illyrio and Varys could have made occur between Aegon and Daenerys. As said before more information needed by author.

Edited by Weirwood Ghost

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