Is Jaime Lord of casterly rock now? Spoilers for all of season 6

[brightflame princess]

So tommen completely removed jaime from the kingsguard right? Or did he demote him to a lesser position? 

Does he get his position back as tywins heir? Is he in control of the westerlands, and the lannister army? Or do knightly vows remain, even if your knighthood has ended? 

 

Sidenote.. tommen must have been seriously disgusted with his "uncle" once he heard the rumors about the twincest. Enough to remove him from his side completely.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Yes that would seem to be the case, Jaime would now be the Lord of Casterly Rock and the Westerlands, and Warden of the West.  Especially since Cersei is in power.  But it's important to remember how precarious that all is, Cersei will not be in power long.

[Sir Matthis Light]

14 hours ago, brightflame princess said:

So tommen completely removed jaime from the kingsguard right? Or did he demote him to a lesser position? 

Does he get his position back as tywins heir? Is he in control of the westerlands, and the lannister army? Or do knightly vows remain, even if your knighthood has ended? 

 

Sidenote.. tommen must have been seriously disgusted with his "uncle" once he heard the rumors about the twincest. Enough to remove him from his side completely.

1) Yes Jamie was completely removed from the King's guard, as in "He's no longer a member".

2) It's never stated "Directly" in the show, but we can assume he is now Lord of Casterly, like how we got to see who Jon's mother was, but it was never revealed who his real father was. ( But we all know, so yeah ). Not to sure on how exactly Knighting works, but I I'm pretty sure Jamie is still a Ser even tho he's not a KG anymore.

3) From my understanding all of Cersei's children knew about the "Rumor", like how could they not lmao. Joffrey asked his mother if the rumors about her and "Uncle Jamie" were true, she told him no and he believed her. "HE WAS THE KING!!!!!" I doubt he would've wanted to believe any rumor that would take that away from him.

Tommen was called a bastard in the streets of KL by the Sept of Baelor. He was a good gullible kid, my guess is he didn't believe them because his mother told him the "Rumor" was false.

Myrcella was the only smart one outta her siblings to see the "Rumor" was indeed true, but she didn't care, she was happy Jamie was her father

[OrcusOfUndeath]

Jaime gave up all his titles and claims when he joined the King's Guard, so technically he'd have to be named heir of Casterly Rock again by Cersei, who would I assume have to abdicate the position. They are sworn for life to not own lands or titles, so Jaime may now own land and titles, but he's not the Lannister heir anymore. Currently Jaime, to my understanding, is nothing more than a knight of House Lannister.

[Cron]

Great thread, and conversation.

Good question about Jaime.

I'd say it's not 100 percent clear (so anybody could be right), but by default, yeah, I'd say jaime's Lord of Casterly Rock, Warden of the West, et cetera.

If not him, then who?

[Rory Snow]

It's sort of the same as the "Is Jon a deserter" question. To my way of thinking, once the Night's Watch or Kingsguard vows are taken, you can't change your mind and go back. BUT, neither did. Jon died thus his watch was ended and Jaime was relieved of duty. Neither did this by their own volition therefore there's no reason they shouldn't be allowed to go back to their pre vow lives. 

[Kytheros]

5 hours ago, Cron said:

Great thread, and conversation.

Good question about Jaime.

I'd say it's not 100 percent clear (so anybody could be right), but by default, yeah, I'd say jaime's Lord of Casterly Rock, Warden of the West, et cetera.

If not him, then who?

Eh, Cersei would have gotten it all when Tywin died - Jaime was in the Kingsguard at that point, and Tyrion was on the run and attainted for treason.

It's not clear whether Cersei keeps the titles and such now that Jaime's out of the Kingsguard and now eligible to inherit, or if she gives them up and they pass to him.

Either she's the Lady of Casterly Rock and Jaime is her heir, or Jaime is Lord of Casterly Rock and Cersei is his heir.

Since it's Cersei, I'm going to guess that she won't be giving up any of her titles to Jaime.

[Sir Matthis Light]

11 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

It's sort of the same as the "Is Jon a deserter" question. To my way of thinking, once the Night's Watch or Kingsguard vows are taken, you can't change your mind and go back. BUT, neither did. Jon died thus his watch was ended and Jaime was relieved of duty. Neither did this by their own volition therefore there's no reason they shouldn't be allowed to go back to their pre vow lives. 

Pretty much this ^

[Cron]

11 hours ago, Kytheros said:

Eh, Cersei would have gotten it all when Tywin died - Jaime was in the Kingsguard at that point, and Tyrion was on the run and attainted for treason.

It's not clear whether Cersei keeps the titles and such now that Jaime's out of the Kingsguard and now eligible to inherit, or if she gives them up and they pass to him.

Either she's the Lady of Casterly Rock and Jaime is her heir, or Jaime is Lord of Casterly Rock and Cersei is his heir.

Since it's Cersei, I'm going to guess that she won't be giving up any of her titles to Jaime.

Well, you could be right, I don't claim to have the perfect answer.

BUT....my understanding is that, except for Dorne, male heirs are in line before female heirs.

AND...until recently, Kevan Lannister was still alive.

When Kevan died, Jaime was already out of the Kingsguard.

i just don't know.

Maybe GRRM would be kind enough to stick his nose in here to straighten all  of this out for us.

HARR!!!

[Kytheros]

4 hours ago, Cron said:

Well, you could be right, I don't claim to have the perfect answer.

BUT....my understanding is that, except for Dorne, male heirs are in line before female heirs.

AND...until recently, Kevan Lannister was still alive.

When Kevan died, Jaime was already out of the Kingsguard.

i just don't know.

Maybe GRRM would be kind enough to stick his nose in here to straighten all  of this out for us.

HARR!!!

Not exactly. A Daughter comes before a brother (sister before uncle). The sole exception is the precedents that have been set regarding the Iron Throne itself, where any male has come before the first female.

As such, Cersei would presumably have inherited when Tywin died in the show, as she did in the books. In the books, Jaime never got kicked out of the Kingsguard, so it's unclear what would happen when he becomes eligible to inherit, as he would rank higher than her in the succession.

But again, Cersei being Cersei, I doubt that she'll give up any of her titles, even to Jaime, but since all her children are dead, he's her heir. At least, as far as the show goes.

 

I dunno - we're likely to see a somewhat similar situation in the North next season - Sansa's the Stark of Winterfell right now, but Bran presumably will cross the Wall soon and go to Winterfell. He's ahead of her and was never ineligible, merely missing and thought dead.

[Cron]

1 hour ago, Kytheros said:

Not exactly. A Daughter comes before a brother (sister before uncle). The sole exception is the precedents that have been set regarding the Iron Throne itself, where any male has come before the first female.

As such, Cersei would presumably have inherited when Tywin died in the show, as she did in the books. In the books, Jaime never got kicked out of the Kingsguard, so it's unclear what would happen when he becomes eligible to inherit, as he would rank higher than her in the succession.

But again, Cersei being Cersei, I doubt that she'll give up any of her titles, even to Jaime, but since all her children are dead, he's her heir. At least, as far as the show goes.

 

I dunno - we're likely to see a somewhat similar situation in the North next season - Sansa's the Stark of Winterfell right now, but Bran presumably will cross the Wall soon and go to Winterfell. He's ahead of her and was never ineligible, merely missing and thought dead.

Well,  I'm not saying you're wrong (cuz I'm not perfectly clear on these things), just making conversation and exploring the issue, BUT...

...if Bran, the younger brother of Sansa, has a greater right to Winterfell than Sansa, then Jaime, the younger brother of Cersei (by a few minutes) still has a greater right to Casterly Rock than Cersei, wouldn't he?  At first, when Tywin died, Cersei would have gotten Casterly Rock (according to what you are saying, and I'm not claiming you're wrong), but then when Jaime got kicked out of the Kingsguard and became eligible, it would seem he has the greater claim.

And what about the Iron Throne itself?  How can Cersei even claim to have a greater right than Jaime? (My understanding is that Jaime and Cersei DO have the best claim to the Iron Throne, among people known and known to be alive in Westeros, a detailed examination was done and the conclusion was that Jaime and Cersei have the best claim b/c of some Baratheon in their ancestry.   Thus, it is not necessarily the case that Cersei has merely had herself crowned based on pure power (not that you claimed she did), but rather, I fully expect Cersei to be claiming next season that the Iron Throne is hers by right, but how can it be, when Jaime is a male and, as you just said, when it comes to the IT male claims trump all female claims?)

I don't know, maybe we're all just running in circles chasing our own tails trying to figure this stuff out.  We don't even know how much of this is from GRRM, and how much may be the show runners just slapping stuff together and saying "Hey, wouldn't this be cool!?!"  It seems possible that the laws of succession may be simply being abandoned, and we'ved moved into territory where "might makes right," and "possession is 10/10ths of the law."  Jon Snow is King in the North (which still has me scratching my head), Cersei is on the Iron Throne. Dan and Dave have spoken, and that's the way it IS.   The End.

(Although I LOVE the show, I DO have a fairly strong opinion that the show runners really don't seem to care about certain things as much as GRRM, and this could be just another thing to add to my list on that subject.  I could give examples, but this is too long already.)

[Kytheros]

7 hours ago, Cron said:

Well,  I'm not saying you're wrong (cuz I'm not perfectly clear on these things), just making conversation and exploring the issue, BUT...

...if Bran, the younger brother of Sansa, has a greater right to Winterfell than Sansa, then Jaime, the younger brother of Cersei (by a few minutes) still has a greater right to Casterly Rock than Cersei, wouldn't he?  At first, when Tywin died, Cersei would have gotten Casterly Rock (according to what you are saying, and I'm not claiming you're wrong), but then when Jaime got kicked out of the Kingsguard and became eligible, it would seem he has the greater claim.

And what about the Iron Throne itself?  How can Cersei even claim to have a greater right than Jaime? (My understanding is that Jaime and Cersei DO have the best claim to the Iron Throne, among people known and known to be alive in Westeros, a detailed examination was done and the conclusion was that Jaime and Cersei have the best claim b/c of some Baratheon in their ancestry.   Thus, it is not necessarily the case that Cersei has merely had herself crowned based on pure power (not that you claimed she did), but rather, I fully expect Cersei to be claiming next season that the Iron Throne is hers by right, but how can it be, when Jaime is a male and, as you just said, when it comes to the IT male claims trump all female claims?)

I don't know, maybe we're all just running in circles chasing our own tails trying to figure this stuff out.  We don't even know how much of this is from GRRM, and how much may be the show runners just slapping stuff together and saying "Hey, wouldn't this be cool!?!"  It seems possible that the laws of succession may be simply being abandoned, and we'ved moved into territory where "might makes right," and "possession is 10/10ths of the law."  Jon Snow is King in the North (which still has me scratching my head), Cersei is on the Iron Throne. Dan and Dave have spoken, and that's the way it IS.   The End.

(Although I LOVE the show, I DO have a fairly strong opinion that the show runners really don't seem to care about certain things as much as GRRM, and this could be just another thing to add to my list on that subject.  I could give examples, but this is too long already.)

You're right, under normal circumstances, Bran inherits before Sansa, and Jaime would inherit before Cersei.

However, it's not normal circumstances. We're in a position where Bran is missing and presumed dead, and Sansa has the titles already. Jaime was in the Kingsguard and not eligible to inherit when Tywin died, so Cersei inherited and got the Lannister titles.

We're in a position where someone behind in the succession legally inherited and took up the titles and someone nominally ahead of them in the succession could not inherit when the titles passed, but is now available to inherit. I believe that it is a legal grey area. Frankly, the closest thing I can think of to something like this happening before in Westeros would be the succession crisis that kicked off the first Dance, and that's just a really terrible precedent, no matter what side you're on.

Frankly, I suspect that Cersei will hold onto her titles, making Jaime her heir, while Sansa might cede her titles to Bran, although Bran might refuse them on the grounds of being the last greenseer and needing to bond with a tree.

 

I rather suspect Cersei is staking her claim to the Iron Throne not on her bloodline (as far as I know, that Baratheon ancestry theory is not based on a definitively canon family tree*), but on the fact that she's there, was Queen Mother, Queen Consort, and she has enough swords sufficiently loyal to her to proclaim her ascendancy. Making her claim stick is another matter entirely, however. Her claim is based primarily on being there and having the strongest military force inside of King's Landing.

*Any Baratheon ancestry in the Lannisters would not be a particularly strong claim anyways. After all, the Baratheon claim was predicated on Robert's grandmother being a Targaryen. The Baratheon who is thought to be the Lannister ancestor is from further up the Baratheon family tree from the most recent Targaryen blood in the Baratheons.

[Cron]

15 hours ago, Kytheros said:

You're right, under normal circumstances, Bran inherits before Sansa, and Jaime would inherit before Cersei.

However, it's not normal circumstances. We're in a position where Bran is missing and presumed dead, and Sansa has the titles already. Jaime was in the Kingsguard and not eligible to inherit when Tywin died, so Cersei inherited and got the Lannister titles.

We're in a position where someone behind in the succession legally inherited and took up the titles and someone nominally ahead of them in the succession could not inherit when the titles passed, but is now available to inherit. I believe that it is a legal grey area. Frankly, the closest thing I can think of to something like this happening before in Westeros would be the succession crisis that kicked off the first Dance, and that's just a really terrible precedent, no matter what side you're on.

Frankly, I suspect that Cersei will hold onto her titles, making Jaime her heir, while Sansa might cede her titles to Bran, although Bran might refuse them on the grounds of being the last greenseer and needing to bond with a tree.

 

I rather suspect Cersei is staking her claim to the Iron Throne not on her bloodline (as far as I know, that Baratheon ancestry theory is not based on a definitively canon family tree*), but on the fact that she's there, was Queen Mother, Queen Consort, and she has enough swords sufficiently loyal to her to proclaim her ascendancy. Making her claim stick is another matter entirely, however. Her claim is based primarily on being there and having the strongest military force inside of King's Landing.

*Any Baratheon ancestry in the Lannisters would not be a particularly strong claim anyways. After all, the Baratheon claim was predicated on Robert's grandmother being a Targaryen. The Baratheon who is thought to be the Lannister ancestor is from further up the Baratheon family tree from the most recent Targaryen blood in the Baratheons.

Good stuff.

(1)  I laughed when I read the part about Bran bonding with a tree, but this is an honest question:  Were you kidding, or are you saying as the 3 Eyed Raven Bran actually has to bond with a tree like his predecessor?  I didn't think that was a requirement, but I'm not saying you're wrong.

(2)  So, with Cersei, "might makes right," as far as she's concerned.  Maybe, but I have a feeling she's gonna try to claim she has it by right of succession.  We'll see, though.

(3) Regarding the Targaryen versus Baratheon claim issues, when I said an examination revealed that Jaime and Cersei were the rightful heirs, my understanding is that that DID NOT take Targaryen lines (including Dany or possibly Jon) into account, but rather, was just looking at succession from Robert Baratheon on down.  If we're taking Targaryen bloodlines into account, then we might as well just say Dany (and possibly Jon), I suppose.

[Kytheros]

5 hours ago, Cron said:

Good stuff.

(1)  I laughed when I read the part about Bran bonding with a tree, but this is an honest question:  Were you kidding, or are you saying as the 3 Eyed Raven Bran actually has to bond with a tree like his predecessor?  I didn't think that was a requirement, but I'm not saying you're wrong.

(2)  So, with Cersei, "might makes right," as far as she's concerned.  Maybe, but I have a feeling she's gonna try to claim she has it by right of succession.  We'll see, though.

(3) Regarding the Targaryen versus Baratheon claim issues, when I said an examination revealed that Jaime and Cersei were the rightful heirs, my understanding is that that DID NOT take Targaryen lines (including Dany or possibly Jon) into account, but rather, was just looking at succession from Robert Baratheon on down.  If we're taking Targaryen bloodlines into account, then we might as well just say Dany (and possibly Jon), I suppose.

1 - Bran probably doesn't actually need to bond with and turn into a tree. At least, not to be a greenseer. On the other hand, it's not like he's particularly mobile either. If being the Three Eyed Raven is something different from just being a greenseer, as it appears it's a transferable title/position in the show, he may need to bond with a tree for that. But while he probably doesn't actually need to bond with and start turning into a tree, he is also likely to be spending most of his time on greenseeing walkabouts and the like, and so probably won't have the time to dedicate to being Lord of Winterfell.

2 - Pretty much. She might well try to make a claim of legitimacy through succession, but it's weak as hell. Robert got called Usurper and he was a helluva lot more popular than Cersei and had a whole lot more support. She can try to claim she gets it through the legitimate succession, but I don't think anyone will believe her and making that claim won't contribute to stability the way Robert claiming legitimacy through his Targ blood did to appease Targ loyalties amongst the nobles and the populace. Besides, the way inheritance laws work, if she's making a claim of legitimacy through her ancestry, Jaime, now out of the Kingsguard as he was when the deck got cleared, is ahead of Cersei in an ancestral claim to legitimacy.

3 - Yeah, as far as I know, that theory is exclusively based on the Baratheon bloodline. However, Robert staked the legitimization of his claim to the Iron Throne through his Targaryen grandmother. Other than Dany/Jon, I'm not sure what the next strongest Targaryen claim actually is in the books, but of show characters the next one would probably have been the Martells. Oh, I suppose if there were a legitimized or at least acknowledged bastard of Robert, they could maybe make a claim, but that'd be a weak one at best. Sand Snakes have a weakened claim, thanks to being bastards.