What is the meaning of this aspect in Sansa's storyline?

[Future Null Infinity]

As I'm always searching to understand the various aspects in Sansa's storyline I observed an unique aspect that I couldn't find the meaning of it :
If we put aside for a moment the storyline of Bran who is figuratively and literally dragged to his destiny in the story to become the greatest 3ER ever, as the other main characters struggled for their wishes, Sansa story went in contrary, she struggled because of her wishes :
-  Jon wish he got some information about his mother and obviously he will get it.
-  Arya wish she was capable to avenge her family and friends and with the help of the FM she got it
- Tyrion wish that people saw his wisdom and his intellect and not his dwarfism and his disfiguration and he got it (Dany saw that in him and made him the hand of the queen)
- Daenerys wish she could have the power to retake the kingdom of her fathers and she got the armies and she will retake Westeros 

In contrast, Sansa wish which is "I'd be queen someday", and because of it she got all sort of humiliations until she matured and realised that her ambitions are shallow, she didn't navigate to it but she navigated through it to finally abandon it

Edit (making my question more precise) : what do you think? is her return to WInterfell (her start point) Is an indication that GRRM wanted to say that his universe is not an utopia and not evey character is bound to get the initial wishes mentioned in the start of story? her story made her a hardened person, is her return to Winterfell an indication that her story lies in Winterfell and not a queen in KL as she wish? is her return to Winterfell indicates that she have a different future in the story?

[Chib]

This is Show forum so actually, it is not what GRRM wanted to say through Sansa, it's what D&D wanted to say. And I highly doubt that GRRM would let BookLF sell BookSansa to the Boltons. 

[Karmarni]

Ha! No doubt book Littlefinger would not sell Sansa to the Boltons. That's a "game" only D&D&C would play. And they decided to play it while filming Season 2 of the show? 

What's Sansa's wish? What has she gotten? If we look at the show only, she has got to go back to Winterfell. But that's not the same Sansa. I can barely, just barely, call her "Sansa" on the show (only when being nice - my friends know what I really call her). They've done so much to take this particular character and shoehorn her into various other character's 'more important' storylines, for brevity and hilarity. What was the meaning of the poop joke? Do we think show Sansa knows what S.H.I.T. is now? She's a grown, hardened woman now, right? I wonder.

The show universe compared to the books has far, far less positives or happiness, or even moments of characters' considering their own future - what do they want, what will bring this to them? They can't, say some defenders, not enough time for their 'big' moments. But, hey, if you don't spend enough time telling the viewers what the characters want - how in the world are we supposed 'get' the big moments? Listen to their Behind the Scenes stuff? Why? Read interviews so we can get more info? Why? This should be obvious from watching the show. And yet they haven't done it and they do seem to think viewers should be getting the full picture from sources outside the actual tv show.

Well, so what does Sansa really want? I think we'll see something next season, finally after two seasons where Sansa decided to not think through Littlefinger's hair-brained, only a pimp could come up with this one, suggestion that she go off and pretend to be her friend, Jeyne, in Jeyne (and Stannis') storyline. Now perhaps we'll get to meet "the real Sansa". 

Will the real Sansa Stark please stand up!!!

[A spoon of knife and fork]

2 hours ago, Karmarni said:

The show universe compared to the books has far, far less positives or happiness, or even moments of characters' considering their own future - what do they want, what will bring this to them? They can't, say some defenders, not enough time for their 'big' moments. But, hey, if you don't spend enough time telling the viewers what the characters want - how in the world are we supposed 'get' the big moments? Listen to their Behind the Scenes stuff? Why? Read interviews so we can get more info? Why? This should be obvious from watching the show. And yet they haven't done it and they do seem to think viewers should be getting the full picture from sources outside the actual tv show.

Honestly I think it is laziness on the part of most viewers that is the problem.  The way that characters motivations are and should be portrayed in film are through acting, dialogue, and action.  The classic "show don't tell".  The show runners used much too much exposition in season 1, but now they are doing it right.  Yet some people who read the books just seem to be stubbornly blind to it.  "OMG JAIME SAID HE LOVES CERSEI HIS REDEMPTION ARC IS RUUUINNNED"  No.  Look at what he actually does.  Look at the emotions the actor portrays.  Use your eyes as Syrio would say. 

Look at any other show.  You don't have scenes with characters dumping their reasons for acting in some giant monologue.  Because that's not realistic at all.  People don't do that in reality.  If you as a view really really need to be inside a person's head to understand them, you really should not be watching film.  Stick to text.  Or Shakespeare.  

In the case of Sansa.  The actress clearly portrays frustration, verbally and nonverbally, in her interactions with Jon during and after battle planning.  Jon is also frustrated & a bit dismissive.  Sansa misinterprets Jon's general closed-offness as him not taking her seriously when really that's just how he is.  And he's open to what she has to say, but he doens't express that well at all.  Because he's not an expressive or emotive person (especially given his current situation of dealing with a near-death experience and general suicidal mood).  Sansa has become used to working with Littlefinger, who has been more and more including her in his plans and plots...  who has been stroking her ego...  so she's put off by Jon's personality and leadership style.  Even though she loves Jon and actively dislikes Littlefinger, there is definitely an attraction to the feeling of empowerment that she had at the end of Season 4 that she wants to regain.  Oh.  And also she is desperate for them to win and Jon doens't seem to care whether they win or lose.  

You don't have to read interviews to get this stuff.  Watch with your eyes.  Listen with your ears. 

[House_Tony_Stark]

12 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

In the case of Sansa.  The actress clearly portrays frustration, verbally and nonverbally, in her interactions with Jon during and after battle planning.  Jon is also frustrated & a bit dismissive.  Sansa misinterprets Jon's general closed-offness as him not taking her seriously when really that's just how he is.  And he's open to what she has to say, but he doens't express that well at all.  Because he's not an expressive or emotive person (especially given his current situation of dealing with a near-death experience and general suicidal mood).  Sansa has become used to working with Littlefinger, who has been more and more including her in his plans and plots...  who has been stroking her ego...  so she's put off by Jon's personality and leadership style.  Even though she loves Jon and actively dislikes Littlefinger, there is definitely an attraction to the feeling of empowerment that she had at the end of Season 4 that she wants to regain.  Oh.  And also she is desperate for them to win and Jon doens't seem to care whether they win or lose.  

You don't have to read interviews to get this stuff.  Watch with your eyes.  Listen with your ears. 

I agree with this part which is why I think she will go back to the Vale with LF. Jon has no desire to be king of the seven realms and his focus from here on out will be the North and only the North. I foresee him only getting involved with Danny because his army NEEDS the dragon-glass that is at the Dragonstone to fight the White Walkers. Sansa really has no purpose in the building of an army because she is not a fighter and she could not really offer Danny anything.

Little Finger on the other hand can literally offer her the world. And it will just be a matter of which one of them turns on the other when all is said and done.

[TheCasualObserver]

It's tough to say what Sansa has learned, if anything. As a baseline for playing the game of thrones, "don't trust Littlefinger" might as well be the be all and end all. He got Ned killed, Tyrion exiled and Sansa raped. Since at this point she still hasn't split with the guy (watch her refusal of him in ep 10 vanish come season 7) I doubt she is really capable of the Machiavellian scheming playing the game requires. She clearly lacks both the constitution and the calculating mind for it.

A finale which reveals that Sansa Stark cannot be a political heavyweight as she once wanted to would be refreshing in its uniqueness if nothing else. 

[ThePukwudgie]

6 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

I agree with this part which is why I think she will go back to the Vale with LF. Jon has no desire to be king of the seven realms and his focus from here on out will be the North and only the North. I foresee him only getting involved with Danny because his army NEEDS the dragon-glass that is at the Dragonstone to fight the White Walkers. Sansa really has no purpose in the building of an army because she is not a fighter and she could not really offer Danny anything.

Little Finger on the other hand can literally offer her the world. And it will just be a matter of which one of them turns on the other when all is said and done.

Considering how desperate Sansa was to reclaim her home, it makes no sense that she would ever leave it, especially now that's she's "Lady of Winterfell."

Honestly, I don't think Sansa is that ambitious of a person. Why would she want "the world"? Right now she's all about House Stark, Winterfell, and the North.

If Jon wants the dragon-glass at Dragonstone so bad, he can simply ask Davos to help him get it. I have no idea who's in charge of Dragonstone right now(it's not Dany). I'm guessing it's someone who follows House Baratheon. A general or something.

[Le Cygne]

10 hours ago, Karmarni said:

Ha! No doubt book Littlefinger would not sell Sansa to the Boltons. That's a "game" only D&D&C would play. And they decided to play it while filming Season 2 of the show? 

What's Sansa's wish? What has she gotten? If we look at the show only, she has got to go back to Winterfell. But that's not the same Sansa. I can barely, just barely, call her "Sansa" on the show (only when being nice - my friends know what I really call her). They've done so much to take this particular character and shoehorn her into various other character's 'more important' storylines, for brevity and hilarity. What was the meaning of the poop joke? Do we think show Sansa knows what S.H.I.T. is now? She's a grown, hardened woman now, right? I wonder.

The show universe compared to the books has far, far less positives or happiness, or even moments of characters' considering their own future - what do they want, what will bring this to them? They can't, say some defenders, not enough time for their 'big' moments. But, hey, if you don't spend enough time telling the viewers what the characters want - how in the world are we supposed 'get' the big moments? Listen to their Behind the Scenes stuff? Why? Read interviews so we can get more info? Why? This should be obvious from watching the show. And yet they haven't done it and they do seem to think viewers should be getting the full picture from sources outside the actual tv show.

Well, so what does Sansa really want? I think we'll see something next season, finally after two seasons where Sansa decided to not think through Littlefinger's hair-brained, only a pimp could come up with this one, suggestion that she go off and pretend to be her friend, Jeyne, in Jeyne (and Stannis') storyline. Now perhaps we'll get to meet "the real Sansa". 

Will the real Sansa Stark please stand up!!!

I love everything you said but especially the bold.

This isn't the Sansa from the books, that's for sure. It would be nice if we get a glimpse of her before it's all over, though.

[House_Tony_Stark]

3 hours ago, ThePukwudgie said:

Considering how desperate Sansa was to reclaim her home, it makes no sense that she would ever leave it, especially now that's she's "Lady of Winterfell."

Honestly, I don't think Sansa is that ambitious of a person. Why would she want "the world"? Right now she's all about House Stark, Winterfell, and the North.

If Jon wants the dragon-glass at Dragonstone so bad, he can simply ask Davos to help him get it. I have no idea who's in charge of Dragonstone right now(it's not Dany). I'm guessing it's someone who follows House Baratheon. A general or something.

Sansa was not really that desperate to claim her home. She was desperate to stop running because she was literally surrounded by enemies. The Frey's to the south want her dead, the Lannisters to the south west want her dead, The Iron Islands would probably take her prisoner and sell her to the Lannisters, she is an enemy of the crown, and who knows else would capture her for a big pay day. LF was a last option she was not that willing to work with the guy who put her in this situation at first.

And the Dragonstone is essentially part of the Crownlands meaning there is no way an ally of House Stark could get there without the crown finding out. And if you forgot House Stark and House Lannister are not exactly friends right now. So there is no Davos helping him smuggle hundreds of pounds of ore on ships they don't have North. 

[ThePukwudgie]

7 minutes ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

Sansa was not really that desperate to claim her home. She was desperate to stop running because she was literally surrounded by enemies. The Frey's to the south want her dead, the Lannisters to the south west want her dead, The Iron Islands would probably take her prisoner and sell her to the Lannisters, she is an enemy of the crown, and who knows else would capture her for a big pay day. LF was a last option she was not that willing to work with the guy who put her in this situation at first.

And the Dragonstone is essentially part of the Crownlands meaning there is no way an ally of House Stark could get there without the crown finding out. And if you forgot House Stark and House Lannister are not exactly friends right now. So there is no Davos helping him smuggle hundreds of pounds of ore on ships they don't have North. 

In regards to Sansa, I don't see where you're getting that from. She made a big deal about getting back Winterfell to Jon. Even before the pink letter arrived she brought up the idea to Jon.

As for Dragonstone, the truth is we don't know who's in control of it. Stannis was against the Lannisters, and he was camped there last.

[House_Tony_Stark]

Just now, ThePukwudgie said:

In regards to Sansa, I don't see where you're getting that from. She made a big deal about getting back Winterfell to Jon. Even before the pink letter arrived she brought up the idea to Jon.

As for Dragonstone, the truth is we don't know who's in control of it. Stannis was against the Lannisters, and he was camped there last.

Have you seen a map of Westeros? I'm not being facetious, but dude Dragonstone is part of the Crownlands aka the place under jurisdiction of Kings Landing and where they dock their navy. We don't know who is in control of it but the but if it was a Baratheon they were loyal to Tommen...So they would in turn by loyal to his mother and the wife of Robert Baratheon.

And yeah...again where else could she have gone? At the last few seconds of the KITN seen she looks at LF and you can see her fall into the desire of power begin. 

[ThePukwudgie]

29 minutes ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

Have you seen a map of Westeros? I'm not being facetious, but dude Dragonstone is part of the Crownlands aka the place under jurisdiction of Kings Landing and where they dock their navy. We don't know who is in control of it but the but if it was a Baratheon they were loyal to Tommen...So they would in turn by loyal to his mother and the wife of Robert Baratheon.

And yeah...again where else could she have gone? At the last few seconds of the KITN seen she looks at LF and you can see her fall into the desire of power begin. 

Except Stannis was rebelling against the crown, and his homebase was Dragonstone.

She could have gone back to The Vale, where she would have been safe, but instead she chose to go straight back to the place she ran away from out of fear. If safety was her number one concern, Winterfell would have been near the bottom of her list.

That look Sansa gave LF could have been interpreted many ways. Personally, I saw worry in her eyes because she knew Jon was next on LF's list.

[Bear Claw]

I don't think it is Sansa's wish to be Queen anymore, but she will be Queen. I think her idea of Queen was a shallow one. Margery probably had a little bit more of a deeper image of Queen, but not much. I think everything that Sansa has suffered and learned has groomed her to become a good Queen. She has a deeper appreciation of her land (Winterfell) , her family, and her people. I think what really gives me the impression that she is headed to become Queen are her important political connections. Her cousin rules the Vale, her uncle rules the Riverlands, and her brother rules the North. Who else besides her siblings (who don't really seem interested or as well educated about politics) has better connections in Westeros? These connections are there for a reason.  How can someone with these credentials (strength of mind, perseverance, political savvy, charm, and connections) not be a ruler? 

[dsug]

Yeah I think Sansa shows that not everyone can get what they want. 

In a broader aspect, I think Sansa is becoming a very tragic character, in the sense that the person she's become isn't as great and awesome and moral as we were hoping. She can be rude. She can be haughty. She can be cruel. But that's the way the world is, unfortunately. Abuse and depression can make changes people, sometimes for good. 

[Lady Knows Nothing]

In the beginning Sansa was a damsel in distress who relied on other people to help her but now I think she is starting to realize that only she can help herself and shape her life. Her ideals of having a prince charming in the begging were very immature and shallow and now she realizing that prince charming cannot always save her and sometimes she has to save herself. Being away from home and watching her father get killed under the orders of someone she thought she could trust and being giving away to a horrible man by someone else she thought she could trust has caused her to realize that she can't always put her trust in other people. As she said to Jon "No one can protect me...No one can protect anyone".

[Future Null Infinity]

10 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

I love everything you said but especially the bold.

This isn't the Sansa from the books, that's for sure. It would be nice if we get a glimpse of her before it's all over, though.

I'm a show viewer, I didn't read the books mainly because I have other books to read (and some laziness ), the majority of people have the motivation to know what's lies beyond the show (the stories in the books, the differences) and fortunately there is many (fast) resources to get the information : this forum (which is the historical reference), Reddit, Youtube....

For example, many people knows about the wolves pack of Arya, and I know that in a way sansa's story is the inverse of Jon's story and while in the Vale living as a bastard with her tutor, she got a glimpse of a bastrad's life and she started to understand Jon and thinking about him

the situation is not so bleak for some show viewers who have the motivation 

[House_Tony_Stark]

12 hours ago, ThePukwudgie said:

Except Stannis was rebelling against the crown, and his homebase was Dragonstone.

She could have gone back to The Vale, where she would have been safe, but instead she chose to go straight back to the place she ran away from out of fear. If safety was her number one concern, Winterfell would have been near the bottom of her list.

That look Sansa gave LF could have been interpreted many ways. Personally, I saw worry in her eyes because she knew Jon was next on LF's list.

 

Okay? Dragonstone was the keep that Robert granted Stannis after the rebellion and gave his little brother Storms End. That has nothing to do with this discussion which takes place probably a year or two later. The men loyal to Stannis were deceimated in Blackwater Bay and what was left of them were all killed in the North. 

And did you read anything I wrote lol? If she went back to the Vale she would be going back to the person who put her in the position to begin with, that's not safety.  She would have essentially been in prison for the rest of her life.

[House_Tony_Stark]

12 hours ago, Bear Claw said:

I don't think it is Sansa's wish to be Queen anymore, but she will be Queen. I think her idea of Queen was a shallow one. Margery probably had a little bit more of a deeper image of Queen, but not much. I think everything that Sansa has suffered and learned has groomed her to become a good Queen. She has a deeper appreciation of her land (Winterfell) , her family, and her people. I think what really gives me the impression that she is headed to become Queen are her important political connections. Her cousin rules the Vale, her uncle rules the Riverlands, and her brother rules the North. Who else besides her siblings (who don't really seem interested or as well educated about politics) has better connections in Westeros? These connections are there for a reason.  How can someone with these credentials (strength of mind, perseverance, political savvy, charm, and connections) not be a ruler? 

She can't be queen of Winterfell unless she marries Jon.

Her uncle does not rule the Riverlands, the Lannisters/Frey's do.

Her cousin does not rule the Vale, Little Finger rules the Vale.

You are trying very hard to elevate Sansa for some very odd reason. Even if something were to happen to Jon keep in mind that the King in the North title is not something passed on from sibling to sibling. Jon was proclaimed King by the people who were loyal to him. His lead by example presence commands the respect of both his men and enemies. Sansa is no warrior nor will she ever be one, so it's very unlikely that a culture built on toughness is going to want to follow her lead.

Also keep in mind that this is still a patriarchal society. The women in this series who have risen to power have done it through treachery, even Danny. Cersei murdered everyone who stood in her way. The Greyjoy girl stole rebel ships away from the elected ruler of the Iron Islands and is working to usurp the rightful ruler. Danny has also murdered everyone who has stood in her way. The Sandsnakes murdered their way into power.

And that last tidbit is just your opinion. The people who are not blinded by what the book Sansa is like and how hot she is on the show don't see those. Strength of mind? Prove it. Political Savvy? What politics has she been involved in? She has been a prisoner of someone ever since her father died. Connections? Her only connection is Little FInger who is more likely to sell her AGAIN to promote is own goals. For jeez sake lol, her own people didn't even follow her and she is the oldest legitimate child of Ned Stark.

 

[Bear Claw]

31 minutes ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

 

You are trying very hard to elevate Sansa for some very odd reason.

I didn't elevate her. It was Ned's father who had Southern ambitions and made a betrothal between Cat and his son. Next, it was Cat's father who married his daughter to Jon of the Vale. These are powerful families. Sansa is unique. She has familial alliances that no other character has (bar her siblings).  I am not a Westeros expert, and if anyone knows please tell me, but who in Westeros has these familial alliances? Alliances are important and Dany isn't planning on getting the iron throne solely through treachery. She said she needed to make marriage(family) alliances. Sansa already has them. I think Sansa's alliances are in the story for a reason and that they will come into play eventually. (The have already with the Vale). 

Even if something were to happen to Jon.

I don't know what Jon is going to do. I am looking at Sansa and her future. I really don't see Jon as a ruler of Westeros. Who else besides the North would want him? Sansa could gain the North's support, the support of the Vale, and the support of the Riverlands. 

Also keep in mind that this is still a patriarchal society.

This is obviously changing. 

Sansa is no warrior nor will she ever be one

I am talking about when the war is over. He is a warrior, but after the war they will need a political leader. Someone has to deal with the Iron Bank, and I think Sansa  would be better to handle issues like that. 

Her uncle does not rule the Riverlands, the Lannisters/Frey's do.

Her cousin does not rule the Vale, Little Finger rules the Vale.

I think LF will be out of the picture this season. Her cousin rules the Vale and I believe the situation in the Riverlands has changed due to Arya's work. The Freys were a mess before. The only thing holding them together was Walder. Arya took out Walder and two sons. It seems likely that the Riverlands is in rebellion again and that Edmure is in charge again. 

I don't know what is going to happen in the future. Sansa could die next season, but these are my thoughts.  I am looking at the final result of this story (post-war).

[Future Null Infinity]

2 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

And that last tidbit is just your opinion. The people who are not blinded by what the book Sansa is like and how hot she is on the show don't see those. Strength of mind? Prove it. Political Savvy? What politics has she been involved in? She has been a prisoner of someone ever since her father died. Connections? Her only connection is Little FInger who is more likely to sell her AGAIN to promote is own goals. For jeez sake lol, her own people didn't even follow her and she is the oldest legitimate child of Ned Stark.

Personally, I didn't read the books and I'm not blinded by how hot she is on the show, I'm smart enough to detach the character from the actress, many people are saying that in Game of thrones, every main character is the hero of his story, that's true.

So please let's stay in the topic, I just want to know the meaning of her past story and the impact of that on her future story since she returned now to Winterfell