What is the meaning of this aspect in Sansa's storyline?

[ThePukwudgie]

5 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

What's the most important part of controlling a person's action? Controlling the information upon which they act. Not telling Jon about the incoming reinforcements is a clear indication of attempted intrigue. She decided not to trust Jon with the information that she had. What else am I to call it?

I call it lying. People do it all the time, for many different reasons.

[TheLastLibrarian]

I see what you wants to say, every main character get his wishes fulfilled but not Sansa, she knew that her ambitions are futile very early in the story, and then the only thing she wanted is escape her misery

for her future, I think that she will return to KL with Jon when Daenerys got Westeros, Tyrion will get killed, Dany will see the mastermind in politics in Sansa, she will give her westeros to rule until Dany's return from the war against the WW but unfortunately Dany and Jon will die fighting the NK which leaves Sansa as the sole Queen of Westeros, she will be last survivor and she will get what she doesn't want anymore

[House_Tony_Stark]

On 7/15/2016 at 2:47 PM, Kytheros said:

Dragonstone is an island and a keep.

After Blackwater, Stannis retreated to Dragonstone. When he went North, there is no indication that he abandoned the place. In fact, there's indications that he left an adequate garrison.

Sure, in the books, Dragonstone ultimately got stormed by the Crown/Lannister/Tyrell forces who took heavy losses in the process - and that's why Loras is unavailable to be Margaery's champion in a Trial by Combat in the books, because he's supposedly horribly injured from taking the place.

But in the show, Dragonstone hasn't been attacked, or if it has, it's not been mentioned, and as such, is presumably still held by men who were loyal to Stannis.

The last known orders Stannis sent to Dragonstone were to mine dragonglass/obsidian and ship it North. What's going on there now? Not a clue - for that matter, they probably don't even know that Stannis is dead.

I expect that in the show, Dragonstone will either be forgotten about, or taken by Daenerys's forces. Maybe they'll take the losses there that the Crown/Lannister/Tyrells forces did in the books.

Curious what indications are there that he left an adequate garrison? He took the vast majority of his forces north and lost them all. And I know what the Dragonstone is....It's proximity to Kings Landing would make it illogical to think they would ignore it even if it has not been mentioned in the show.

Even if he left people who were loyal to House Baratheon, Tommen was the last of the bloodline thus all power would have fallen to him in the show.

[House_Tony_Stark]

On 7/15/2016 at 4:27 PM, lakin1013 said:

Sometimes, when I read the forums about Sansa I wondered if anyone actually likes her.  If I had a friend who was raped and beaten by an evil person for 7 months and my friend escapes, would I immediately begin plotting for her to run for state legislature?  Would she even be ready?  Sansa wanted to go HOME.  She is home, and she is SAFE and she is SAFE with Jon.  Why don't we give her a chance to recover some equilibrium before we thrown her back into the ring.  

And some want her to marry that sniveling, baby Sweet Robin?  I would not wish that on an enemy.  Others suggest she should marry lying, conniving LF.  Again, NOPE.  As Lady of Winterfell, and as lovely as she is, surely a better match will arrive.  I do not think her only two options are whiner or liar. 

Best for Sansa is to acquire some balance, start managing Winterfell, and see where her talents and interests lie.  I should think that with Jon she is about to meet some very influential people who will guide her.  I actually think Davos might be a very kind and helpful figure to her.  

The problem is Sansa is a character that people can want to turn into their image. Some people have this white knight syndrom of wanting to protect her for those reasons of rape. And some want her to go through this crazy redemption that is not viable. I would not mind her rising to power if she actually gets it on her own.

Like what could she actually do to manage Winterfell? The North has a King so all issues of the Kingdom will be directed to Jon. As will all military fortifications because he is a experienced commander. Opposed to her going with Little Finger, she has all the opportunity in the world to write her own story.

[House_Tony_Stark]

On 7/15/2016 at 3:36 PM, TheCasualObserver said:

But it's debatable what effect any of her moves actually had when you examine them critically.

Ramsay might have killed Roose because Sansa planted the idea in his head, but it's more likely that Roose's own conduct toward his son did that. And since Ramsay's legitimacy came from the iron throne and Sansa becoming his wife is proof of his split with the iron throne, did Sansa really need to say anything to make this an issue? Her passive presence should really have done the job without her needing to say anything, which is hardly a great political move.

Even if we accept that she was responsible for Ramsay killing Roose, this also makes her partly culpable in innocent Walda and baby Roose's deaths as well. And how much did killing Roose change to the plot? Nothing, he simply would have died alongside Ramsay in ep 9 instead of at Ramsay's hand in ep 4. 

Her use of "the resources and people available to win the battle" was shoddy in the extreme - a failure to inform Jon of impending reinforcements was partially responsible for hundreds dying when they didn't need to. As an example of Sansa playing the game and moving her pieces it's pretty damn poor.

Finally, LF was planning to invade the North for nearly two seasons. To what extent was Sansa's go ahead pivotal to his response? The writers might want us to think that Sansa' involvement was critical here, but that seems pretty weak sauce to me. LF can't martial all the forces of the Vale, march them hundreds of miles north in full armor and plan a way to take over of the North, and then turn them around a go home because Sansa is pissed at him. 

I just don't see the political savvy you mention at work here. How can Sansa have really learned anything if she considers the idea of LF in charge of the seven kingdoms with her at his side as a "pretty picture"? 

^^THIS logic...lol

Sansa has literally done nothing of significance in her entire existence. She was born a Stark she did not fight any battles, she did not plan any strategies, she did not give any cool speeches that made her Banner men want to fight for her, nothing.....All she has done is run from captor to captor.

If you really examine everything that happens it becomes very clear that Little Finger is still using her.

This all starts by him telling Cersei he would deal with the North.

1. He sells her to the Bolton's whom he knows had part in killing her family.

2. He obviously marshals the Vale forces and rides them north which could have been no short trip.

3. He sends her a letter offering "help"

4. She says no and he obviously stays close by knowing she will call on him or else there is no way he would have made it to that battle so quickly.

5. He rides in and destroys probably the largest remaining army in the North and after most of Jon's army of wildlings have died.

And when you put all this together....Little Finger literally placed Jon on his throne. And the Starks until further notice are enemies of both Kings Landing and Danny. Not to mention they also have the threat of the white walkers. By letting the Northmen kill themselves they now only have one ally....Little Finger.

It's pretty genius on his part if you ask me, if he talks Sansa into ruling the Riverlands with him then he has the loyalty of three of the seven realms.

[TheCasualObserver]

On 7/16/2016 at 5:40 AM, ThePukwudgie said:

5 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

^^THIS logic...lol

Sansa has literally done nothing of significance in her entire existence. She was born a Stark she did not fight any battles, she did not plan any strategies, she did not give any cool speeches that made her Banner men want to fight for her, nothing.....All she has done is run from captor to captor.

If you really examine everything that happens it becomes very clear that Little Finger is still using her.

This all starts by him telling Cersei he would deal with the North.

1. He sells her to the Bolton's whom he knows had part in killing her family.

2. He obviously marshals the Vale forces and rides them north which could have been no short trip.

3. He sends her a letter offering "help"

4. She says no and he obviously stays close by knowing she will call on him or else there is no way he would have made it to that battle so quickly.

5. He rides in and destroys probably the largest remaining army in the North and after most of Jon's army of wildlings have died.

And when you put all this together....Little Finger literally placed Jon on his throne. And the Starks until further notice are enemies of both Kings Landing and Danny. Not to mention they also have the threat of the white walkers. By letting the Northmen kill themselves they now only have one ally....Little Finger.

It's pretty genius on his part if you ask me, if he talks Sansa into ruling the Riverlands with him then he has the loyalty of three of the seven realms.

Ignore this

[TheCasualObserver]

5 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

^^THIS logic...lol

Sansa has literally done nothing of significance in her entire existence. She was born a Stark she did not fight any battles, she did not plan any strategies, she did not give any cool speeches that made her Banner men want to fight for her, nothing.....All she has done is run from captor to captor.

If you really examine everything that happens it becomes very clear that Little Finger is still using her.

This all starts by him telling Cersei he would deal with the North.

1. He sells her to the Bolton's whom he knows had part in killing her family.

2. He obviously marshals the Vale forces and rides them north which could have been no short trip.

3. He sends her a letter offering "help"

4. She says no and he obviously stays close by knowing she will call on him or else there is no way he would have made it to that battle so quickly.

5. He rides in and destroys probably the largest remaining army in the North and after most of Jon's army of wildlings have died.

And when you put all this together....Little Finger literally placed Jon on his throne. And the Starks until further notice are enemies of both Kings Landing and Danny. Not to mention they also have the threat of the white walkers. By letting the Northmen kill themselves they now only have one ally....Little Finger.

It's pretty genius on his part if you ask me, if he talks Sansa into ruling the Riverlands with him then he has the loyalty of three of the seven realms.

I agree to a certain extent; Sansa is still a mere stooge for LF, which puts paid to a lot of the buzz surrounding her killing Ramsay and "taking control". 

But then again, LF's plan is still incredibly stupid and works because the plot requires it to, not because of any particular intelligence on his part. For one thing, he had no way of knowing he would arrive in time to catch Ramsay's army out in the open; that was pure luck.

[Future Null Infinity]

7 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

Sansa has literally done nothing of significance in her entire existence. She was born a Stark she did not fight any battles, she did not plan any strategies, she did not give any cool speeches that made her Banner men want to fight for her, nothing.....All she has done is run from captor to captor.

because in the story, she's a late player character,in the story there are 3 types of characters :
- early players : like ned stark
- players for all the story : Jon, Dany, Arya and Tyrion
- late players (end games and only survivors) : Sansa and Bran

The starks lack a mind like LF or Tywin or Roose in their family, a man of the house, someone who do the job and do whatever it must be done for the family, and it's Sansa, 

7 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

If you really examine everything that happens it becomes very clear that Little Finger is still using her.

I examined everything and I got another conclusion :

he wanted to use her in the weirwood tree scene but she knew how his mind works, Littlefinger wants friends in position of power, Jon is not his friend but sansa is, so it's normal that he wants her as queen on the north,Sansa/Baelish relation is very complicated, he used her in the past but now she knows that he will use anybody for his goals

and obviously you forgot what Sansa said to Jon about LF in Winterfell, it's the key of the end game between Sansa and LF

She's the student that will beat the teacher, her mind is pure gold, she's outsmarted Ramsey by the army of the vale and she's outsmarting LF now and she will outsmart him, LF's days are numbered

[House_Tony_Stark]

10 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I examined everything and I got another conclusion :

he wanted to use her in the weirwood tree scene but she knew how his mind works, Littlefinger wants friends in position of power, Jon is not his friend but sansa is, so it's normal that he wants her as queen on the north,Sansa/Baelish relation is very complicated, he used her in the past but now she knows that he will use anybody for his goals

and obviously you forgot what Sansa said to Jon about LF in Winterfell, it's the key of the end game between Sansa and LF

She's the student that will beat the teacher, her mind is pure gold, she's outsmarted Ramsey by the army of the vale and she's outsmarting LF now and she will outsmart him, LF's days are numbered

I think that's still just how you want to see it and not what actually happened. I will go ahead and admit that I'm speculating because we have not been told what will happen.

But I saw differently than you did, I saw a rebellious little girl who thought she was playing her hand in the Weirwood scene. Then after the King in the North scene I saw that same girl look towards him as if she was ready to start playing his game which is what he wanted the whole time.

She may very well go with him to start learning how to play the game but that HAS NOT HAPPENED. The only facts that we have are that Little Finger went to deal with the North. He rose to power in the Vale. He sold Stansa to further his goals of weakening the north. And when all is said and done she may go with him with the intention of betraying him but so far Little Finger has gotten just about everything he wanted.

But let me emphasis " She's the student that will beat the teacher "

1. She is not the student, she has done NOTHING yet.

2. She didn't outsmart Ramsey, mounted soldiers almost always defeat foot soldiers. She did not lead the charge, she did not ride into battle, she did not Storm the keep.

 

[House_Tony_Stark]

I just want to put it on record that I'm fine with Sansa becoming Little Finger 2.0 but she is not right now. She didn't plan any of these things that have happened. She didn't ride to the Vale and convince their knights to ride hundreds of miles to the North and risk their lives for her. She didn't escape from captivity by herself, Theon Greyjoy finally gathered his courage and not only helped her keep running but eve defended. She didn't have the words to convince her honor bound banner-men to fight for her. She didn't become the queen in the north despite being a Stark.

The only thing Sansa Stark has done is allow other people to use her for both good and bad. Again, it will be great to see her redemption I feel bad for her. But right now she is just Jon's side kick.

[ThePukwudgie]

6 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

I just want to put it on record that I'm fine with Sansa becoming Little Finger 2.0 but she is not right now. She didn't plan any of these things that have happened. She didn't ride to the Vale and convince their knights to ride hundreds of miles to the North and risk their lives for her. She didn't escape from captivity by herself, Theon Greyjoy finally gathered his courage and not only helped her keep running but eve defended. She didn't have the words to convince her honor bound banner-men to fight for her. She didn't become the queen in the north despite being a Stark.

The only thing Sansa Stark has done is allow other people to use her for both good and bad. Again, it will be great to see her redemption I feel bad for her. But right now she is just Jon's side kick.

Jon's sidekick? Let's be honest, Sansa is clearly wearing the pants in that relationship. I think Jon will lag behind whenever politics is involved, but as soon as a White Walker shows up, Sansa's passes the ball to Jon.

[ThePukwudgie]

6 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

I think that's still just how you want to see it and not what actually happened. I will go ahead and admit that I'm speculating because we have not been told what will happen.

But I saw differently than you did, I saw a rebellious little girl who thought she was playing her hand in the Weirwood scene. Then after the King in the North scene I saw that same girl look towards him as if she was ready to start playing his game which is what he wanted the whole time.

She may very well go with him to start learning how to play the game but that HAS NOT HAPPENED. The only facts that we have are that Little Finger went to deal with the North. He rose to power in the Vale. He sold Stansa to further his goals of weakening the north. And when all is said and done she may go with him with the intention of betraying him but so far Little Finger has gotten just about everything he wanted.

But let me emphasis " She's the student that will beat the teacher "

1. She is not the student, she has done NOTHING yet.

2. She didn't outsmart Ramsey, mounted soldiers almost always defeat foot soldiers. She did not lead the charge, she did not ride into battle, she did not Storm the keep.

 

Neither did Tywin, but no ones disputes his victory over Robb.

[Winter's Cold]

18 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

Neither did Tywin, but no ones disputes his victory over Robb.

Tywin beat Stannis. Walder Frey and Roose Bolton beat Robb.

[ThePukwudgie]

1 hour ago, Winter's Cold said:

Tywin beat Stannis. Walder Frey and Roose Bolton beat Robb.

My mistake, I forgot Roose's last words to Robb:

"The Boltons and the Freys send their regards."

[Future Null Infinity]

14 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

I think that's still just how you want to see it and not what actually happened. I will go ahead and admit that I'm speculating because we have not been told what will happen.

Believe me, I can see everything and beyond every story in the same time, I'm amazing, when I saw Arya in the FM in the show I said "shit, she looks like an african child soldier", and approx one year later, I was lurking in this forum and someone wrote that GRRM based Arya's story on the african children soldiers, I'm amazing

14 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

1. She is not the student, she has done NOTHING yet.

how did the knights of vale come to help Jon if she did nothing? LF and the knights of the vale surely didn't know that sansa needs help from the thin air, the scene of the letter gives us the answer, it's just the start, she will do amazing things, Sansa character in the story is like someone invites commoners and some celebrities to a party, and we all know that celebrities always come late

14 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

2. She didn't outsmart Ramsey, mounted soldiers almost always defeat foot soldiers. She did not lead the charge, she did not ride into battle, she did not Storm the keep.

each character in the story have a class, "warrior" or "magician" or "beautiful mind", you can't have a character with two classes, Sansa, Tyrion and LF are in the class "beautiful mind", she's not a commander to lead a charge, this is for the "warrior" class (like Jon and Stannis), the can't wield a sword and fight (like brienne), Tyrion didn't lead the charge in Meerren siege but Dany did because it's those actions are not in his class

the simple fact that she won over Ramsay means the outsmarted him, if she didn't outsmart him how she won the war then?

[House_Tony_Stark]

12 hours ago, ThePukwudgie said:

Jon's sidekick? Let's be honest, Sansa is clearly wearing the pants in that relationship. I think Jon will lag behind whenever politics is involved, but as soon as a White Walker shows up, Sansa's passes the ball to Jon.

Again, you are just passing on your own personal desires of Sansa. Jon is the KING of the largest territory in the seven realms and also the defacto leader of Nights Watch.

You keep mentioning how Sansa will be handling the politics while ignoring reality. When the Starks were in a time of need guess who was handling the politics trying to get men to fight for them Jon? Sansa was sitting silently next to him pretty much saying nothing. When they were at House Mormont arguing why she should join them guess who was talking, Jon. When the WIldlings were debating why they should fight for a home that is not theirs who were they loyal to, Jon. When Winterfell was taken back and Davos found out about the horror committed by the Red Priest whose authority did he seek for judgement, Jon. When the Lords of the Northern Houses were gathered in Winterfell and Jon and Sansa were sitting beside each other who did they apologize to? Jon. And  who did they swear loyalty to and make King of the North? Jon.

The Wildlings are only loyal to Jon. The Lords of the Northern Houses are loyal to Jon. The nights watch is loyal to Jon. The Knights of the Vale are loyal to Robin/LF. Sansa is an enemy Danny and the Lannisters. So what politics do you plan on her doing? The only place on Westeros that's friendly to her is the Vale.

[House_Tony_Stark]

6 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

Believe me, I can see everything and beyond every story in the same time, I'm amazing, when I saw Arya in the FM in the show I said "shit, she looks like an african child soldier", and approx one year later, I was lurking in this forum and someone wrote that GRRM based Arya's story on the african children soldiers, I'm amazing

how did the knights of vale come to help Jon if she did nothing? LF and the knights of the vale surely didn't know that sansa needs help from the thin air, the scene of the letter gives us the answer, it's just the start, she will do amazing things, Sansa character in the story is like someone invites commoners and some celebrities to a party, and we all know that celebrities always come late

each character in the story have a class, "warrior" or "magician" or "beautiful mind", you can't have a character with two classes, Sansa, Tyrion and LF are in the class "beautiful mind", she's not a commander to lead a charge, this is for the "warrior" class (like Jon and Stannis), the can't wield a sword and fight (like brienne), Tyrion didn't lead the charge in Meerren siege but Dany did because it's those actions are not in his class

the simple fact that she won over Ramsay means the outsmarted him, if she didn't outsmart him how she won the war then?

Sansa did not win the battle and Sansa did not fight in the battle. It's really crazy that you are giving her all the credit for this, Jon's men are the one who stormed Winterfell and ultimately won the battle. If you want to give someone credit he is the one who literally defeated Ramsey in combat and ended the fight. And the Vale soldiers are not her soldiers FYI they were under Little Finger and he is the one who brought them.

And no Tyrion did not lead the charge in Meerren but Tyrion literally stopped Danny and jointly discussed a plan that Danny then accepted. Thus it was HIS PLAN that lead to them winning the battle without destroying the ships. Sansa could have done something similar if she told Jon about the Vale then discussed strategies to win the battle. But guess what? She didn't tell him about the Vale and she didn't plan anything she just desperately asked her boyfriend to ride in and help Jon.

The Knights of the Vale came because Little Finger offered to help because he was trying to further his own goals. Sansa was the reason that he came and Jon could not have won the battle without the Vale. But it's a joint victory not something that she planned like you are insinuating.

[House_Tony_Stark]

14 hours ago, ThePukwudgie said:

Neither did Tywin, but no ones disputes his victory over Robb.

Someone already corrected you, but I would also like to add Tywin is not some teenage noble girl who has never had to fend for herself......He was grown man with an entire lifetime of proven success in politics, leadership, combat, and parenthood under his belt. Do you want to a real example of how politics are done?

During the rebellion he waited until he was sure Robert Baratheon's forces were going to win before committing his. And Robert knew this so Tywin married his daughter to Robert so that he could deter any animosity and ensure that House Lannister had ties to the leadership of the Seven realms. When Robert died he was the one who made all the decisions.  Do you remember when he put Joefry in his place lol? "A king who has to say he is a king is no king" As cocky and foolish as that boy was he knew not to oppose Tywin. Even that grumpy old lady from House Tyrell even respected Tywin.

When he died House Lannister has slowly began to decline because his leadership was irreplaceable.

[House_Tony_Stark]

14 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

Tywin beat Stannis. Walder Frey and Roose Bolton beat Robb.

I love when you have proven facts like this.

Ramsey defeated Stannis with his own men.

Jon is a great warrior even at a young age.

Those are things that are proven and can't really be debated.

[Daske]

On ‎15‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 9:36 PM, TheCasualObserver said:

...

I just don't see the political savvy you mention at work here. How can Sansa have really learned anything if she considers the idea of LF in charge of the seven kingdoms with her at his side as a "pretty picture"? 

She didn't mean it literally! She was taking the piss.

She was telling him, with a parting shot, to stop being stupid without telling him he's stupid. That's politically savvy.

In my experience when people say 'it's a pretty picture' they mean 'it may be what you want but you aren't going to get it'.