DunderMifflin Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 1 hour ago, Dofs said: Almost none of those who committed terrorist acts in the West were actual member of ISIS. They were just sympathetic to the cause, which the Nice terrorist might be as well (the fact that he wasn't a heavily practising Muslim before doesn't mean anything, really). So let's just go ahead and say he was. I'm not sure how being an official member of ISIS works, but in terrorist attacks in the West you mention they found solid ties to terrorist organizations pretty quickly. They have his phone and computer, I'm sure something he clicked on at some point in his life will serve as the smoking gun needed to blame islam and/or ISIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 1 hour ago, Dofs said: No, from all reports he just wasn't a very religious Muslim some months before the attack. So the logical conclusion is that a few months later he is an extremist who decides to commit an act of terrorism to die as a martyr? Or have I missed something in this exchange? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Which Tyler Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 Basically, yes. Either a couple of months living in Nice is enough to convert someone from a non-practicing Muslim to a rapid self-sacrificing, murderous terrorist; despite no links to any known radicals locally, or through social media / internet search history. Or he was mentally ill and decided to go out in a blaze of glory, possibly taking the Pascal's wager of helfire and damnation vs 72 virgins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 I just spent like a week just outside Nice. How radicalized does that make me, now? Some of these comments...just so fucking sad. Assume radicalized because of geography? Islam 'rewards' martyrs? So does Christianity. There's this book called the bible, especially the NT that touches briefly on the subject pretty constantly throughout, leading off with the guy the gig was named after, then his followers, etc. Let's start double checking churches and screening Lutherans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 I put the chances at 0.00001% that this will not be tied to Islam and ISIS. Even if no solid evidence emerges, the presidents will never admit they had a premature case of foot in mouth by mentioning them immediately after it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTygerAndTheLamb Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 On 7/15/2016 at 0:52 PM, Relic said: wrong. But thanks for playing. I'm adding you to my ignore list since you don't seem to have anything useful to add to any of the discussions you participate in, other than attempting to sow further seeds of hatred and intolerance (which is the actual underlining problem here). Goodbye. Wow, you're criticising her for pointing out, that yes, there is such thing as Islamist terror, then you just cowardly add her to ignore because she doesn't share your frankly ridiculous,unrealistic left wing outlook on life. How on earth is it racist to point extremist Islam is an issue?, and, as you value such tolerance how do you feel about Islamic views on the treatment of women?homosexuality?. The fact is the views of most of the citizens of the modern Western World and the views of devout Muslims are diametrically opposed, you'd really do well to pull your head out of your ass and acknowledge this. On the subject of this attack in Nice, it's terrible I can't imagine what the families and friends of the 84 dead, and the people who witnessed this senseless attack are going through, my thoughts are with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 1 hour ago, TheTygerAndTheLamb said: Wow, you're criticising her for pointing out, that yes, there is such thing as Islamist terror, then you just cowardly add her to ignore Just to recap - radical religious zealots are NOT the root cause of our problems as a nation, a society, and as a species. Anyone who tries to make this entire conversation about Islam has to be willing to listen to contrary arguments pointing out why that is short sighted and stupid, or they can fuck right off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted July 16, 2016 Author Share Posted July 16, 2016 I don't mean to be a killjoy or anything, but I would be far happier to find out this guy was motivated by stuff he saw or heard from ISIS, or the attacks in Paris or in Belgium, than to find out the new normal in Europe for a someone who lost their job and had marital problems is to rent a big truck and run over hundreds of people. After all, this is the fourth time the tactic has been used in France and the other three times the men were ISIS inspired, though the other times only a few people were injured or killed, but the tactic has also been used in Canada, in Israel, and, I believe, in Pakistan, Bangladesh and India. And in the USA in 2006, in Chapel Hill, NC, where an Iranian-born student rented a four wheel vehicle to be able to run over people and keep going, to avenge the deaths of Muslims around the world, though he didn't kill anyone. I came to the thread today expecting some European would be filling us in on the details about the 5 people who have been arrested or detained (both words are being used) in Nice by police investigating the attack. That sounds like it possible wasn't in fact a lone wolf action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB. Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 This is from Reuters, a couple of paragraphs from an article. "From idealism to disillusion, the shifting profile of Islamist attackers As authorities investigate the motives for a mass killing claimed by Islamic State in Nice late Thursday, analysts say the case appears to highlight a shift in the profile of those launching attacks in the name of hardline Islamist groups. Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel, who killed at least 84 people by driving a truck through crowds in the French town, was not a pious, educated man in the mould of Mohamed Atta, one of the hijackers behind the 9-11 attacks in the United States in 2001. Rather, neighbors and family describe him as a troubled man who lived apart from his wife and three children and drank alcohol, something forbidden by Islam. "It seems that he was radicalized very quickly," said French interior minister Bernard Cazeneuve. That poses a big problem for authorities, who have put much of their focus on tackling hardline Islamist ideology by seeking to spread counter-arguments in schools and mosques... Islamic State is an organization which attracts a very broad variety of followers, from the most convinced, to the most adventurous, to the most unstable or psychotic," said professor Rik Coolsaet, a terrorism expert linked to Ghent University in Belgium... According to a recent Europol study, some 80 percent of Islamic State recruits have criminal records and some 20 percent were diagnosed with mental health issues. "In view of this shift away from the religious component in the radicalization of, especially, young recruits, it may be more accurate to speak of a violent extremist social trend rather than using the term radicalization," Europol wrote. That creates a broader challenge for authorities seeking to thwart attacks, something made even harder if the perpetrators act without outside help, as appears to be the case in both Orlando and Nice. "If more people follow the Nice example it will be a nightmare for security services as it is almost impossible to detect," said Edwin Bakker, professor at the Centre for Terrorism and Counterterrorism at the University of Leiden in the Netherlands." The entire article is online, if anyone is interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 There's only a limited amount of precautions that can be made for any public space where people will be massed. Any nutjob that has given up on life can perpetuate this and similar attacks at anytime. The only hope is to see a spread of sentiment that values life. Without that the public will always be facing some risk. There's a certain level of people who seem to see no purpose and wont hesitate to take others out with them. It's like these people/terrorists have just become moral nihilists or something? EdMain article: Moral nihilism Moral nihilism, also known as ethical nihilism, is the meta-ethical view that morality does not exist as something inherent to objective reality; therefore no action is necessarily preferable to any other. For example, a moral nihilist would say that killing someone, for whatever reason, is not inherently right or wrong. Other nihilists may argue not that there is no morality at all, but that if it does exist, it is a human construction and thus artificial, wherein any and all meaning is relative for different possible outcomes. As an example, if someone kills someone else, such a nihilist might argue that killing is not inherently a bad thing, or bad independently from our moral beliefs, because of the way morality is constructed as some rudimentary dichotomy. What is said to be a bad thing is given a higher negative weighting than what is called good: as a result, killing the individual was bad because it did not let the individual live, which was arbitrarily given a positive weighting. In this way a moral nihilist believes that all moral claims are void of any truth value. An alternative scholarly perspective is that moral nihilism is a morality in itself. Cooper writes, "In the widest sense of the word 'morality', moral nihilism is a morality."[11] Edit Watch this page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Which Tyler Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 13 hours ago, Fragile Bird said: I don't mean to be a killjoy or anything, but I would be far happier to find out this guy was motivated by stuff he saw or heard from ISIS, or the attacks in Paris or in Belgium, than to find out the new normal in Europe for a someone who lost their job and had marital problems is to rent a big truck and run over hundreds of people. After all, this is the fourth time the tactic has been used in France and the other three times the men were ISIS inspired, though the other times only a few people were injured or killed, but the tactic has also been used in Canada, in Israel, and, I believe, in Pakistan, Bangladesh and India. And in the USA in 2006, in Chapel Hill, NC, where an Iranian-born student rented a four wheel vehicle to be able to run over people and keep going, to avenge the deaths of Muslims around the world, though he didn't kill anyone. I came to the thread today expecting some European would be filling us in on the details about the 5 people who have been arrested or detained (both words are being used) in Nice by police investigating the attack. That sounds like it possible wasn't in fact a lone wolf action. Basically, it's no more "normal" than any other form of hitting rock bottom and deciding to go out with a bang. And of course ISIS are "claiming" it - that's kinda their job; that neither makes it true; nor do repeats about their "claim" make it an actual claim. Again, I don't deny the possibility that he may have gotten the idea from other ISIS attacks, or that the ISIS narrative didn't propose Pascal's Wager for this guy; but there is precisely 0 evidence that he'd been radicalised, 0 evidence that he was sympathetic to the ISIS cause. Of course, it's in the interests of Western governments and media to portray this as ISIS related; they're the big bad at the moment, and it fits the current narrative. Bear in mind that Hollande was calling this a clear terrorist attack before we even knew the guy's name or nominal religion. Does that really sound like a claim based on sound intelligence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 Horrible to see people murdered in this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted July 17, 2016 Author Share Posted July 17, 2016 2 hours ago, Which Tyler said: Basically, it's no more "normal" than any other form of hitting rock bottom and deciding to go out with a bang. And of course ISIS are "claiming" it - that's kinda their job; that neither makes it true; nor do repeats about their "claim" make it an actual claim. Again, I don't deny the possibility that he may have gotten the idea from other ISIS attacks, or that the ISIS narrative didn't propose Pascal's Wager for this guy; but there is precisely 0 evidence that he'd been radicalised, 0 evidence that he was sympathetic to the ISIS cause. Of course, it's in the interests of Western governments and media to portray this as ISIS related; they're the big bad at the moment, and it fits the current narrative. Bear in mind that Hollande was calling this a clear terrorist attack before we even knew the guy's name or nominal religion. Does that really sound like a claim based on sound intelligence? Sorry, not buying it., even if the thought crossed my mind. A man, deranged, violent, upset, depressed, angry, whatever, with marital problems goes to his wife's/ex-wife's bringing a gun, a knife, his hands, whatever, and kills the wife, her new boyfriend, the kids, the in-laws, the neighbour who tried to intervene. Then usually kills himself. A man, deranged, violent, upset, depressed, angry, whatever, over losing his job goes to his former place of employment bringing a gun, a knife, his hands, whatever, and kills the guy he reported to, or his manager, or the Boss, or the employees who complained about him, or all of them, and then usually kills himself or the police kill him because someone managed to call 911 in the mayhem. A man who plans out the way to kill the largest number of people by renting a giant truck just before one of the biggest national holidays and then indiscriminately mows down hundreds of strangers is making a political statement. Connections to a radical organization or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon AS Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 12 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: A man who plans out the way to kill the largest number of people by renting a giant truck just before one of the biggest national holidays and then indiscriminately mows down hundreds of strangers is making a political statement. What about a man who deliberately crashes a plane, indiscriminately killing over a hundred people? Is he also making a political statement, or does that only apply if we're talking about Muslims? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 22 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: A man, deranged, violent, upset, depressed, angry, whatever, with marital problems goes to his wife's/ex-wife's bringing a gun, a knife, his hands, whatever, and kills the wife, her new boyfriend, the kids, the in-laws, the neighbour who tried to intervene. Then usually kills himself. A man, deranged, violent, upset, depressed, angry, whatever, over losing his job goes to his former place of employment bringing a gun, a knife, his hands, whatever, and kills the guy he reported to, or his manager, or the Boss, or the employees who complained about him, or all of them, and then usually kills himself or the police kill him because someone managed to call 911 in the mayhem. Nah, most of the time this man just gets reclusive and finds ways of anesthetizing himself and you never know he ever existed. Sports. Porn, video games, weed, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 1 minute ago, Fragile Bird said: Sorry, not buying it., even if the thought crossed my mind. A man, deranged, violent, upset, depressed, angry, whatever, with marital problems goes to his wife's/ex-wife's bringing a gun, a knife, his hands, whatever, and kills the wife, her new boyfriend, the kids, the in-laws, the neighbour who tried to intervene. Then usually kills himself. A man, deranged, violent, upset, depressed, angry, whatever, over losing his job goes to his former place of employment bringing a gun, a knife, his hands, whatever, and kills the guy he reported to, or his manager, or the Boss, or the employees who complained about him, or all of them, and then usually kills himself or the police kill him because someone managed to call 911 in the mayhem. A man who plans out the way to kill the largest number of people by renting a giant truck just before one of the biggest national holidays and then indiscriminately mows down hundreds of strangers is making a political statement. Connections to a radical organization or not. I'm sorry, FB, but that's just off. Do a wikicheck on rampage killers, you'll see numerous mass murderers that don't fit it any of your boxes. Off the top of my head, forget his name, but the McDonald's shooting in California in the 80's. Left his family fine, went out and shot 20+ and his reason, as I recall, was not getting a return call from a clinic. The 'I don't like Mondays' shooter, the tag line was her expressed political agenda, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 2 hours ago, Fragile Bird said: A man who plans out the way to kill the largest number of people by renting a giant truck just before one of the biggest national holidays and then indiscriminately mows down hundreds of strangers is making a political statement. Connections to a radical organization or not. Sadly, i don't think this is true in many cases. We have seen plenty of massacres in the USA that reflect a different reality. Even in cases where politics is given as a reason, like in Orlando, or Dallas, I would bet major money on those men killing for any other cause just as easily. There is something in our social structure that seems to be leeching empathy out of men. Maybe the male gender was always short on empathy, history certainly does strongly suggest that. Seems to me, however, that there has been a spike in the amount of people acting out on their lack of giving a fuck about anyone else. Maybe the internet has given a lot of them a voice they previously lacked, and perhaps emboldened the more violent among them to manifest their desire to lash out indiscriminately, without care for any life whatsoever (even their own). We are creating monsters, more of them than ever as the total population keeps expanding, and we aren't doing anywhere close to enough to educate the population of the world about the value of cooperation, and the joy of empathy. Probably cuz, like, those values don't help corporations make money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 45 minutes ago, Relic said: Sadly, i don't think this is true in many cases. We have seen plenty of massacres in the USA that reflect a different reality. Even in cases where politics is given as a reason, like in Orlando, or Dallas, I would bet major money on those men killing for any other cause just as easily. There is something in our social structure that seems to be leeching empathy out of men. Maybe the male gender was always short on empathy, history certainly does strongly suggest that. Seems to me, however, that there has been a spike in the amount of people acting out on their lack of giving a fuck about anyone else. Maybe the internet has given a lot of them a voice they previously lacked, and perhaps emboldened the more violent among them to manifest their desire to lash out indiscriminately, without care for any life whatsoever (even their own). We are creating monsters, more of them than ever as the total population keeps expanding, and we aren't doing anywhere close to enough to educate the population of the world about the value of cooperation, and the joy of empathy. Probably cuz, like, those values don't help corporations make money. That's because we've raised a society of narcissists. Although since parents/schools/culture in that order are primarily responsible for the values that a person has, I'm not sure how it's the fault of corporations, LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB. Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 "Yesterday, the self-styled Isil claimed responsibility for the attack. It said that Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel “carried out the operation in response to calls to target nationals of states fighting Islamic State”. Police are trying to piece together Bouhlel’s terror network as they questioned five suspected associates after raids across Nice. The French interior minister, Bernard Cazeneuve, said the attacker “appears to have become radicalised very quickly”. One neighbour of his estranged wife said: “Mohamed only started visiting a mosque in April.” Bouhlel, who had a history of violence and mental health problems, had walked into a van rental office and said: “I want the heaviest truck you have.” He had also sent £82,000 to his family in Tunisia, suggesting a well planned suicide mission... Four police vans that had blocked off the Promenade des Anglais to protect a military parade earlier in the day were removed before the attack on Thursday, according to eyewitnesses. In a pessimistic interview with the Journal du Dimanche, Manual Valls, the French Prime Minister, has warned that terrorism will be a part of the country's daily life for a long time. “The terrorism threat is will be a fundamental and enduring problem and other lives will be wrecked,” he said... Isil claims responsibility for attack Isil claimed responsibility Saturday for the attack by Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel who used a hired lorry to kill at least 84 people in a rampage during Bastille Day celebrations in Nice. An Islamic State-run media outlet says the man who drove his truck into a crowd in the French coastal city of Nice is a "soldier" of the group. The Aamaq news agency on Saturday cited a "security source" as saying the attacker "carried out the operation in response to calls to target the citizens of coalition countries fighting the Islamic State." French authorities said they were checking the claim... The French interior minister, Bernard Cazeneuve, said the attacker "appears to have become radicalised very quickly" as one neighbour of his estranged wife added: "Mohamed only started visiting a mosque in April." Investigators examining Bouhlel’s phone records found evidence that he was in contact with known Islamic radicals. However, an intelligence source cautioned: “That could just be a coincidence, given the neighbourhood where he lived. Everyone knows everyone there. He seems to have known people who knew Omar Diaby (a known local Islamist believed to be linked with the Al Nusra group close to Al Qaeda)." Relatives have reportedly claimed Bouhlel, in the days before the attack, persuaded friends to smuggle £84,000 in cash back to his family in their hometown of Msaken, Tunisia. His brother Jaber also said he had not seen his brother for several years and the money had come as a complete surprise... Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel sent a text message minutes before the attack asking for more weapons, it has emerged. The message, which read 'Bring more weapons, bring five of them to C', was sent to an unidentified figure at 10.27pm on Thursday, just minutes before he began his murderous ramage, according to the French television station BFM. It suggests he may have had accomplices in the terrorist outrage." Telegraph, full article is on the webpage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 2 hours ago, Cas Stark said: LOL. It's not hard to trace back a lot of our society's machinations to the quest for profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.