Jaime wielding Dawn?

[Lord Martin]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

In the economy of the duality, the 'right' hand is associated with 'pissing,' while the 'left' is associated with more noble 'knightly deeds'.  Otherwise put, the 'right' is the 'Smiling Knight,' who is 'wrong' vs. the 'left' which is the 'Arthur Dayne' persona, who is 'right.'  The irony is even weirder when you consider the Latin etymological underpinning, where left is 'sinister,' hence left-handed people were at one point historically regarded with suspicion and prejudice, just for being in the minority, and even in some cases considered to be 'sinister'!  Similarly, right-handed people -- the majority -- were considered to be 'right,' on a moral level as well, a false equivalence, in addition to being more manually 'dexterous,' having a 'good' instead of 'bad' hand  ('dexter' = right in Latin). That's why Arthur Dayne's outstanding dexterity (his 'rightness') with his left hand is so funny, in a quirky way.

 Doubtlessly, GRRM gets a great kick out of these types of 'Alice through the looking glass' back-to-front wordplays, giving us all a headache.  Apart from the fun of shuffling words, I also believe he intends to say something about 'the human heart in conflict with itself' -- represented by Jaime's 'right'(good which is bad) and 'left' (bad which is good) hands wrestling and pulling against each other in opposite directions, threatening to tear him asunder.  Now that the 'right' has been chopped off, however, Jaime's much freer to follow a 'redeemed' course, instead of this extreme 'tug-of-war.'  In particular, it's significant that the hand attached to Cersei's foot at birth has henceforth been severed from her influence, marking a turning point in their relationship and a divergence of their arcs.  On the other hand (sorry!), Arthur Dayne's ability to 'multitask,' using right and left simultaneously -- he is technically 'ambidexterous' -- is meant to serve as a model for Jaime in integrating the 'different sides' of himself into a coherent whole, one worthy of being written 'in black and white.'  The pages of the book are 'white' and the words written in ink are 'black' -- nothing can be written, even in the 'White Book', without this contrast!

Regarding 'taking a piss with his right,' that's representative of where the right-handed Jaime's gone wrong...(are you following me?!)  'Taking the piss' is an idiomatic expression for exploiting others, taking unreasonable liberties with them and being irresponsible.  'Taking the piss out of' someone is making fun of, particularly ridiculing another, and generally making light of life/behaving immaturely.  'Taking a piss' is literally urinating, and figuratively 'pissing on' something or someone is defamatory, e.g. besmirching his honor by kingslaying (i.e. connotations all of which you'll recognise as Jaime's 'Smiling Knight' persona).  When, however, he loses the right hand -- the same one he used to slay Aerys and throw Bran from the window and perform all his other 'dastardly deeds' -- he symbolically cleanses himself of his wrongdoing. Getting rid of the right is the same as getting rid of the wrong.  It's like reforging a broken sword, so your catch that 'Dawn had broken' like Qorin's or Jaime's 'Halfhand' is interesting.

I didn't realize Jaime held onto Cerise's foot with his right hand.  Thats a nice catch.  And I do love the inversion of sinister for Jaime.  That hand is also the one that threw Bran out the window, so I almost think it would be proper for his left hand to save another Stark, Sansa perhaps?  The maiden imagery would be there.

The concept of Cersei and Brienne as the "angel and devil" on Jaime's shoulders has appeal to me.  To recall the Arthur Dayne hands while pissing, Jaime uses one sword on Cersei and another on Brienne.  I did catch your other post and think the "chastising my wife" line is very significant.  Different sort of sword play with different women.

This also recalls a bit of Tywin's battle armor, again LML pointed out the significance of this quote:

Quote

Even from afar, his lord father was resplendent. Tywin Lannister's battle armor put his son Jaime's gilded suit to shame. His greatcloak was sewn from countless layers of cloth-of-gold, so heavy that it barely stirred even when he charged, so large that its drape covered most of his stallion's hindquarters when he took the saddle. No ordinary clasp would suffice for such a weight, so the greatcloak was held in place by a matched pair of miniature lionesses crouching on his shoulders, as if poised to spring. Their mate, a male with a magnificent mane, reclined atop Lord Tywin's greathelm, one paw raking the air as he roared. All three lions were wrought in gold, with ruby eyes. His armor was heavy steel plate, enameled in a dark crimson, greaves and gauntlets inlaid with ornate gold scrollwork. His rondels were golden sunbursts, all his fastenings were gilded, and the red steel was burnished to such a high sheen that it shone like fire in the light of the rising sun.

So note the Lion has two mates both are golden.  Both Cersei and Brienne are blonde and are mates of sort for Jaime.  In fact the parallels between the two are quite notable, its amazing how similar and different they are.

 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I find that dream very mysterious.  Although I've attempted an interpretation in the past, others have probably done a better job at it, so I'm not sure how much I'll be able to add.  First, let me state that I believe Bran and Bloodraven (the two riders, Jaime can make out wreathed in mist heralding the rest of the entourage) sent the dream via the weirwood stump, and that they plan to recruit him for their agenda, whatever that may be, in the war to come.  Jaime addresses the one confronting him as 'Stark, is that you?' thinking it's Ned from the grave sent to torment him on the basis of the weirwood stump which reminds him of 'Ned's tree.'  Jaime's 'half right' (ha ha), it's a Stark but not the one he thinks it is -- it's Bran, the Stark he's put out of his mind after putting him out of the window, as if Jaime has blocked out the memory of that event, which now can only haunt him in dreams.  Moreover, armed with our 'meta-'knowledge, we can in retrospect identify that the heart tree of which Jaime speaks is not truly 'Ned's', but more accurately is possessed (literally and figuratively) by Bran as the ghost 'genius loci'  (I've written on that here (scroll down to purple heading genius loci) who resides in and speaks from that tree.

@sweetsunray and @LmL have been having a discussion on the '12 + 1' 'Last Hero + 12 companions' configuration.  Would that make Jaime a 'Last Hero' contender, surrounded by 12 figures?

I've questioned whether 'the Rock' in question is really Casterly Rock.  Why would the Lannisters depart the bowels -- the heart -- of Casterly Rock, leaving it to Jaime.  And where is Tyrion?  Perhaps it's Aegon's Red Rock -- the Rock into which the Red Keep is carved, and site of Jaime's greatest misdeed.  In the dream, he's also visited by a lot of Targaryen-affiliated shades, whom he's betrayed, so it would make sense for them to frequent the Red Rock.  We don't know about the nethermost levels of the Red Rock; for all we know, and going by other caverns, there is water in the lower depths.  I agree he's being parted from his Lannister heritage, whether that's because his father isn't really Tywin (and maybe Aerys), or whether it's more symbolic, indicating a change of allegiances, is debatable.  For example, I've previously speculated that there are 'waters' in the depths of Jaime's subconscious, and at the base of his turbulent and confused identity, because he may be a 'Waters' -- a Targ bastard, just like Rennifer Longwaters, the longwinded 'dragonseed' he meets in the dungeons of the Red Keep along with the three-headed-dragon mosaic, which addresses him, much as in this dream.  'I know you Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying...I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me...'  It's possible Jaime misheard the dragon:  perhaps it was saying, 'I know you kin-slayer'..!  I have expressed that on several threads, without receiving feedback, so I guess most readers find it far-out; the lack of enthusiasm notwithstanding, it remains a possibility, however remote and unpopular.

Indeed.

Yes, like Dawn or a sword of the Others.

I agree.  Probably, there's something more complex attached to the symbology as well, which we haven't clarified yet.  His 'sword' ignites her flame ('turning her on'..?!)  Could flames represent children?  First, Rhaegar's children who were snuffed out, for which Jaime is indirectly responsible, having failed to protect them (think of the archetypes of the 'warrior' and 'father' in the 'song of the seven,' which Jaime has failed to live up to as a knight).  Second, Jaime's chidren.  Perhaps the flame in his hand represents the last of his remaining children conceived with Cersei dying out (according to the woods witch's prophecy facilitated by Cersei's increasing derailment), whereas the flame Brienne holds is the hope for the future, the child he might conceive with her -- a pure flame in contradistinction to the corrupt flame of the 'twincestuous love' and all the twisted 'things he did for that love'.  When Jaime and Brienne were wrestling so fiercely and fondly in their infamous 'sword fight, ' which led directly to them being captured, the loss of Jaime's hand, and the turnaround of his fortunes and 'moral' destiny, GRRM sneaks in the phrase 'they were making enough noise to wake a dragon,' which I contend is, among other references, an indication of sex with ensuing childbirth.  Is Jaime the dragon, or another?  Perhaps Jaime will play 'kingmaker' for another, bringing him/her to power, a virtual childbirth and symbolic sword forging.

Yes, lots of guilt, indicating Jaime feels compelled to make amends to the ones his wronged, most of all himself, beginning with turning around the horses and heading back to Harrenhal for Brienne upon awakening as a direct consequence of the dream.  The interchange between Brienne and Dayne -- together representative of 'the better angels' of Jaime's nature and his 'spirit guardians'-- is very mysterious.  Dayne is sad because he compromised his own oath, a breach of the 'perfect knight' ideal, the precise circumstances of which remain tantalizingly mysterious.  Many have offered that Dayne is Jon's father; however, I remain unconvinced.  

I've always said -- Jaime is doomed.  But he'll go down in a blaze of glory, doing something very crucial.  I'm not sure of all the color symbology.  Rhaegar's light changes from white to red to black.  @Seams has suggested that the red to black shift in general mirrors the forging of a sword.  Could this also reflect Jaime's transformation or symbolic 're-forging' from white knight of the Kingsguard, back to Lannister, and then allied with the Targaryens (Rhaegar's armor was black).  There's also this color shift which I picked up on recently, where the moonlight in the 'Whispering Wood' (the province of the greenseers and old gods) transmutes Jaime's hair from gold to silver, and his cloak from red to black:

Any ideas?

Thats an interesting thought on Bran and Bloodraven being the two figures, the wrong Stark indeed.  Query which two it would be otherwise.

To follow up on LmL's multiple great theories, Bloodraven wielded Dark Sister, the sister sword to Blackfyre.  Bran is the Stark that Jaime crippled (broken sword?).  So does this again point to his sister Sansa?  There are some theories that Widow's Wail, the other half of Ice/Oathkeeper was sent to Littlefinger along with the Tapestries he requested, so that could be something indeed.

But also note that Rhaegar calls out his "wife and children."  If he married Lyanna and Jon is his son would that mean Jaime's complete redemption is tied to Jon and the Starks in the north?  I like LmL's point about Rhaegar as a Black Dragon.  Jon is also seen as dark and brooding but he has an ice aspect as opposed to Rhaegar's fire aspect.

Here's something else about the dream I am sure @LmL appreciates.  

Just before Jaime falls asleep:

Quote

By evenfall they had left the lake to follow a rutted track through a wood of oak and elm. Jaime's stump was throbbing dully when Steelshanks decided to make camp. Qyburn had brought a skin of dreamwine, thankfully. While Walton set the watches, Jaime stretched out near the fire and propped a rolled-up bearskin against a stump as a pillow for his head. The wench would have told him he had to eat before he slept, to keep his strength up, but he was more tired than hungry. He closed his eyes, and hoped to dream of Cersei. The fever dreams were all so vivid . . .

Now, LmL has done a really nice job describing the Venus mythology and the "Evenstar" which is another name for the Evening Star.  For half the year, Venus appears in the Western Sky as the evenstar, the first star to appear after sunset heralding the coming of night.  Brienne is of course the daughter of the Even Star despite Tarth being located in the eastern part of Westeros.

For the other half of the year, Venus is known as the Morning Star because it is the last star seen before Dawn.  The morning star heralds the dawn.  

It is no coincidence that the sigil of House Tarth are two suns quartered with two moons.  

Now, with Tarth/Brienne coming from the east and Jaime being the son of Tywin, a real solar lion figure in the west, the dance just continues to fold in on itself in such a cool way.  Add to that that Brienne carried the shield of Ser Duncan the Tall, a star falling in the west above an elm tree....

In so far as the rock goes, perhaps it isn't Casterly Rock, but rather deep in the hear of the meteor that fell in the west that was used to create dawn?  Again, LmL and Aziz discussed in the Dayne podcast how the origins of life may have come to earth in a comet/meteor.  So if life came from the heart of a meteor and GRRM likes to write about the human heart in conflict with itself, I cannot think of a better character to be at the heart of such conflict other than Jaime.  He is the essence of humanity in conflict with itself.

As for the Jaime color scheme, on my next re-read I want to pay very close attention to the colors he wears.  I suspect when he wears his white his action is very different from when he is clad in gold or crimson.  The cloths make the man. And oddly enough he was glad in Gold and White when he killed Aerys, a real moment of self conflict for Jaime.

I am suspecting that this all points to Jaime's role being to be a sword bearer of sorts, to bring Dawn north so that Jon can wield it?  I think the same could be predicted about Brienne, but its hard to tell the way they fold into each other.  But the concept of Jaime as Kingmaker plays into this idea.

I agree that Jaime is ultimately "doomed" in that he will not survive the series, but I think his redemption is very much tied to the Starks, both Sansa and Jon.

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Interesting thread! I didn't remember I was following it and now....lots of great posts today

what's up with the 12 +1? seems there are different theories on the same  symbollic number

Last Hero and his 12 companions 

[LmL]

FYI the Red Keep is not carved from rock, it was built with red stone in a conventional fashion.

I think the rock in the dream IS Casterly, but it's a dream version and it's different. The details of it suit the symbolism of the dream, not the accurate layout and features of Casterly Rock. It's essentially just another underworld, perhaps Jamie's subconscious or whatever. 

[Lord Martin]

As for the 12+1 items, I can't hope to keep up with LmL on the constellations, but I have to think of the Zodiac + Orion.

Orion is a constellation at the celestial equator which means it is visible from all hemispheres at various times.  The analog for this constellation could be the "Sword of the Morning" that Jon sees when up on the Wall with Ygritte.  LML had a better explanation for their parallels.

Orion is not part of the Zodiac, which is what makes me think of there 12+1.  Also Orion's two brightest stars are a "red supergiant" and a "white/blue supergiant."  Betleguise and Rigel.  Orion overlaps with Gemeni, the twin constellation but not perfectly.  In myth, Orion was the husband of the Godess of the Dawn.  He is a great warrior and so I see a lot of Jaime parallels there.

Jon Snow, when he identifies the Sword of the Morning notes the 12 houses of the Heavens.  In our Zodiac we have 12 constellations:

Pieces (the fish):  Edmure Tully tells Catelyn that he sees the red comet as the Tully Colors.  Jaime spared the life of Edmure and has had a significant role with House Tully.  In Greek Mythology Aphrodite (Venus) changed into a fish to escape from a monster.  This somewhat reminds me of Jaime and Brienne starting their journey together by escaping Riverrun down the Red Fork.

Aquarius (Water Bearer):  The water bearer reminds me of Arya who was Roose's cup bearer at Harrenhal but she escaped before Jaime arrived there.  Jaime plays a role in sending off the Fake Arya and cautions Brienne not to hunt her down.  In Greek myth, Ganymede was the cup bearer and the gods swept him away to be their cup bearer.  Valar Doheris anyone?  Aria is a cup bearer to many gods in Bravos, no?

Capricorn (the Goat):  This is another figure from Harrenhal, Vargo Hoat is known as the goat.  Capricorn is controlled by Saturn much as Hoat was loyal to Tywin (an ultimate father figure).  Known as the God of intelligence, Gestu, which literally translates to ear.... how did Hoat die again?

Sagittarius (Centaur/Archer):  This consolation is based on Chiron who mentored Achilles.  He is half horse which has been a way of describing both Lyanna and Brandon Stark.  Jaime of course was forced to watch Brandon strangle himself to death.  Jaime later notes how much he hates archers, which makes me wonder if this is a subtle call out to his hatred of his memory of watching Brandon Stark die.  Not that Brandon was an archer but the Centaur/archer is tied to Sagittarius in our Zodiac.

Scorpio (Scorpion):  Scorpio was the scorpion send by Gaia, mother earth to kill Orion.  I don't recall Jaime interacting w/ Amory Lorch much.  But I will note that Lorch was the one who killed Princess Rhaenys and attached the holdfast where Arya and the Watch was hiding out.  He was ultimately killed by the Goat, Vargo Hoat.  

Another option is the red viper who has a distinctive scorpion like aspect.  This scorpion kills the mountain but also doom's Jaime's brother to death.  

Libra (scales):  Libra is the scales of justice and one of the two middle Zodiac signs.  This reminds me of Jaime envisioning himself as Goldenhand the just.  He likes the taste of justice.  Oddly, Libra is controlled by the planet Venus much like Capricorn is controlled by Saturn.   If Jaime's journey is taking a path through the Zodiac, it would make sense for Brienne to be near the center of it.  

Libra is also embodied by a Griffin - part eagle and part lion.  

Virgo (the Maiden):  This is the other central Zodiac sign.  Again, the Maiden points to both Brienne and Sansa.  Virgo is based on the greek goddess Astrea who was the last one to abandon mankind for Olympus.  She is associated with wheat.  There are also ties to Demeter, the goddess of the moon.

Leo (the Lion):  The symbolism is laden here, I guess the only question is which Lion?  In greek myth, the Nemean Lion had skin that could not be pierced.  Hercules made a cloak of his skin for protection.  I think the Lion that most influenced Jaime was Tywin.  It makes sense the he would be one off the center as Jaime seems to enjoy the balance of justice and the virtues of the Maiden more so than the morals of his family.

Cancer (the Crab):  Now the first thought I'd have was Nimble Dick, but that doesn't really fit here.  The Cancer in Greek myth is Karkanos, the crab that bit the food of Hercules when it fought the Hydra (Dragon?).  I think Cancer could reflect Jaime's guilt about Aerys rather than being an actual person.  Our sun is in Cancer during the summer solstice which again hints at Tywin and things Lannister.

Gemini (the Twins):  Speaking of Lannisters, the Gemini is clearly Cersei.  Gemini are volatile and temperamental and have dual personalities (Hello Cersei and Jaime!!).

Here's a fun twist, the twins Castor and Pollux are the basis of Gemeni.  In myth, Castor was the mortal son of a king where as Pollux was the son of Zeus who seduced the King's wife in the guise of a Swan.  This just reminds me of the Aerys issue w/ Joanna Lannister.  Castor and Pollux were twins, born to the same mother but conceived by different fathers.  Wouldn't that be an interesting take on the Aerys/Tywin/Johanna trio?

Taurus (the Bull):  Gerold Hightower, the White Bull.  He is the man who told Jaime to keep the King's secrets and not judge him.  He is a stolid, dogged man, dare I say as stubborn as a bull?  But Taurus is also the Cow God, and Jaime often refers to Brienne as such.  Given that both Gerold and Brienne have had an influence on Jaime's chivalry, this makes some sense.  

Ares (the Ram):  Lastly, we have Aries, but not the God of War.  This is the Ram who shed the Golden Fleece, the ultimate prize in Greek mythology.  Jason and his Argonauts sought the fleece leading to the tale of the Labyrinth and the Minotaur.  

The golden Fleece is the symbol of Kingship.  I actually cannot think of a Ram character we have met to date.  But a Ram always makes me think of the Biblical tale of Issac, son of Abraham.  Issac was to be sacrificed but God spared him and Abraham sacrificed a ram instead.

I see a Christ like sacrificial character in Jon Snow which makes me think a Ram could point this way.  The Ram could equally be Theon who is somewhat setting up to be a sacrificial character.

I don't have a coherent theory on this, but I think its cool.

[LmL]

3 hours ago, Lord Martin said:

 

As for the 12+1 items, I can't hope to keep up with LmL on the constellations, but I have to think of the Zodiac + Orion.

Orion is a constellation at the celestial equator which means it is visible from all hemispheres at various times.  The analog for this constellation could be the "Sword of the Morning" that Jon sees when up on the Wall with Ygritte.  LML had a better explanation for their parallels.

Orion is not part of the Zodiac, which is what makes me think of there 12+1.  Also Orion's two brightest stars are a "red supergiant" and a "white/blue supergiant."  Betleguise and Rigel.  Orion overlaps with Gemeni, the twin constellation but not perfectly.  In myth, Orion was the husband of the Godess of the Dawn.  He is a great warrior and so I see a lot of Jaime parallels there.

 

Yes, that's exactly how I have it too - the zodiac plus Orion, but with one modification which I am super excited about. Namely, 11 of the 12 constellations are animals or people or something of both, with the exception being Libra, the scales. What George has done is exactly what Nasa just did and what some ancient cultures did - include Ophiuchus, the serpent-bearer, in the zodiac. His mythology is really awesome, but I won't sidetrack on that. Point being, George combined Libra with Virgo, thus creatnig room for Ophiuchus and keeping the number at 12. Virgo actually does appear to hold the scales of Libra, so this is no flight of fancy. 

How do I know he did this? Well, it's all about the Just Maid.

Virgo, she is a maid. When she holds the scales, she is just. Lady Justice, you might say. That's what the Maiden giving Galldon the Just Maid is referring to, the idea of the just maid / Virgo holding Libra. A just maiden is also a fair maiden, with all that implies. 

In TWOIAF, there is a section called "12 notable children of Garth the Green." Those twelve children all translate to the zodiacal constellations, but only when you combine virgo and libra (that would Maris the Most Fair, daughter of Garth who wed Uthor Hightower) and add Ophiuchus (John the Oak, who is a giant like Ophiuchus and who wrestles snakes (Dornish) like Ophiuchus). 

The missing 13th form this list is one of two people. Garth himself, or his firstborn son Garth Gardener I, who is for some reason not included in the list of 12 notable children of garth the Green. You'll note that this is also fine evidence for my notion that AA was a greenseer / horned lord, as AA senior would be Garth the Green and the LH would be his son Garth Gardener.  Understand none of this is to be taken too literally, but that's the general gist of the message here. What I take form this is that the LH and his group of 12 were all greenseers or skinchangers, as pretty much all the Greek myths about the zodiac constellations involve people / animal transformations and hybrids, and Garth of course reeks of greenseer / horned god symbolism. My theory for a long time now has been that the Last Hero's 12 dead companions were actually 12 undead companions. Resurrected greenseers and skinchangers, like Jon Snow is about to be and like I think Coldhands is. They make the best zombies, because the animals or trees preserve their spirit for a time, in which the body could be resurrected and then taken back over but he spirit of the skinchanger / greenseer. This is what we expect for Jon, and it should work really well. He won't be a remnant / shadow like Beric or Stonehart, because Ghost will be his soul jar. The result will be an immortal zombie who does not need to eat or sleep or seek warmth... ideal for journeying into the frozen dead lands. Which is wha the LH had to do. Become a zombie in order to save the world. I mean... that's what Jon is doing. 

[LmL]

Btw, I just wanted to make sure that everyone here has listened to Radio Westeros's episodes on Jaime and Cersei and also Brienne - these came back to back and are really part of the same line of research. They did a great job highlighting many of the parallels and inverse parallels between Cersei and Brienne, and the focus is kind of on that triangle. Those can be found on iTunes or on Radiowesteros.com, everyone on this thread should definitely listen to those. 

Of course it goes without saying that calling her "Brienne the Beauty" is a play on Venus, the God of love and beauty, since Venus is the Morningstar and so is Brienne. Thought that was a cool way to use the Venus ideas, and it's a good example of how Martin finds interesting ways to draw from external sources while finding creative ways to shuffle things around and make them unique and original. Venus as a boy... -ish woman. (Bjork shout out). Anyway, just wanted to make sure we covered the basics here. 

[Lord Martin]

@Little Scribe of Naath

I agree House Dayne isn't likely to give up Dawn.

HOWEVER!  There isn't much left of House Dayne as far as we know.  Edric Dayne is a boy-Lord.  His father is dead. His uncle Arthur is dead, his aunt Ashara is dead and his aunt Allyria Dayne was betrothed to Beric Dondarrion.

There is also Gerold Dayne, a Dayne of High Hermatage,not Starfall.

I could easily see House Dayne going extinct much like House Darry.  If DarkStar wants Dawn for himself, I could easily see him coming to Starfall under false pretenses, killing Edric and either killing or forcibly wedding Allyria who is likely still in her late teens or early 20s given Beric's age.  Obviously none of us expect DarkStar to become the Lord of House Dayne for very long.

So if that happens, do we know of any other Daynes?  It just so happens we do... sort of...

King Maekar was married to a Dayne, she was Aegon V (Egg's) mother, making Egg 1/2 Dayne.

Egg married a Blackwood making his children 1/4th Dayne (Aerys and Rhaella).

Since Aeys and Rhaella were both 1/4 Dayne, so are their children... Rhaegar and Dany.  So Dany is 1/4th Dayne and if R+L=J, Jon Snow is 1/8th Dayne.

And just for good fun, if Aerys+Johanna = Jaime, Jaime would be 1/8th Dayne as well. 

And FAegon could claim to be 1/8th Dayne as well as he claims to be Rhaegar's son.

[Lord Martin]

On 9/24/2016 at 1:27 AM, LmL said:

 The missing 13th form this list is one of two people. Garth himself, or his firstborn son Garth Gardener I, who is for some reason not included in the list of 12 notable children of garth the Green. You'll note that this is also fine evidence for my notion that AA was a greenseer / horned lord, as AA senior would be Garth the Green and the LH would be his son Garth Gardener.  Understand none of this is to be taken too literally, but that's the general gist of the message here. What I take form this is that the LH and his group of 12 were all greenseers or skinchangers, as pretty much all the Greek myths about the zodiac constellations involve people / animal transformations and hybrids, and Garth of course reeks of greenseer / horned god symbolism. My theory for a long time now has been that the Last Hero's 12 dead companions were actually 12 undead companions. Resurrected greenseers and skinchangers, like Jon Snow is about to be and like I think Coldhands is. They make the best zombies, because the animals or trees preserve their spirit for a time, in which the body could be resurrected and then taken back over but he spirit of the skinchanger / greenseer. This is what we expect for Jon, and it should work really well. He won't be a remnant / shadow like Beric or Stonehart, because Ghost will be his soul jar. The result will be an immortal zombie who does not need to eat or sleep or seek warmth... ideal for journeying into the frozen dead lands. Which is wha the LH had to do. Become a zombie in order to save the world. I mean... that's what Jon is doing. 

The idea behind there being 12 greenseers makes good sense to me.  I also wonder if some of them rather than being with the LH in physical form were more like aids speaking to him through the trees.  They were his "companions" in that they aided him and helped him achieve victory, but may not have actually been present.

The undead notion is interesting...so do you think when Old Nan said they died one by one, they really became like Jon or Coldhands?  Did they ever finally die or are they still out there somewhere?  

I cannot recall where I heard the idea, may have been Radio Westeros... but I've hear the concept that the LH was able to defeat the Others by learning the secrets to forging weapons that could fight the Others, Dawn and Valyrian Steel.  I think the suggestion was that Bran would ultimately end up looking back through time to give the technology to the LH, who used it to to battle the Others.   This could result in a time travel paradox, but I think its a closed circular loop.

[Damein Blackfyre true king]

I have a theory that the Nissa Nissa is a ancient Member of house Dayne as she is she is the sword was forged from the heart of a falling star, the arms of house Dayne.  Furthermore Azor Ahai becomes the wielder of the sword and upon his death the daynes become the steward of Dawn until Azor Ahai needs his sword back.  Jon being of Dayne blood aids him in the steward ship.  Remember Robert had rights of the throne through  his maternal grandmother.  So why can't Jon have rights to the sword through his maternal great great grandmother.  Jon has the most special bloodlines in the book he has Dayne blood, stark blood, targaryean blood, Blackwood blood.  He has basically blood from the majority of the magical houses thus making him the promised prince and possible heir to dawn. 

[ravenous reader]

6 hours ago, Lord Martin said:

I agree House Dayne isn't likely to give up Dawn.

HOWEVER!  

Quite apart from whether they're prepared to give it up or not, the sword is supposed to go to a worthy family member. On a symbolic level -- and GRRM is more interested in the spiritual than blood ties between people -- Jaime is already related to Arthur by the bonds of the Kingsguard.  As his Kingsguard peer, he's his 'brother,' and as the one who knighted him with his sword on the day of his symbolic 'birth' as a knight -- at dawn with dawn by dawn = the birth of a new day(ne) -- Ser Arthur Dayne is Jaime's 'father.'  Now, he just needs to prove his worthiness.

I've quoted this passage before, but I'll quote it again in case you haven't seen it before.  From the Rolling Stone interview with GRRM, it's clear, reading between the lines, that GRRM was estranged from his 'real' father, therefore informing his interest in exploring the difference between 'technical' vs. other versions of paternity:

Quote

Was your relationship with your parents close? 
My father was a distant figure. I don't think that he ever understood me, and I don't know that I ever understood him. We didn't use the term then, but you could probably say he was a functioning alcoholic. I saw him every day, but we hardly talked. The only thing that we really bonded over was sports.

Did you get out of Bayonne much before college? 
We never had a car. My father always said that drinking and driving was very bad, and he was not going to give up drinking [laughs]. My world was a very small world. For many years I stared out of our living-room window at the lights of Staten Island. To me, those lights of Staten Island were like Shangri-La, and Singapore, and Shanghai, or whatever. I read books, and I dreamed of Mars, and the planets in those books, and of the Hyborian Age of Robert E. Howard's Conan books, and later of Middle-earth – all these colorful places. I would dream of those places just as I dreamed of Staten Island, and Shanghai.

In other words, he dreamed of escaping his home reality.  Someone who dreams of alternate worlds might also be drawn to creating fantasies of 'alternate paternities.'

Having established that Jaime potentially qualifies as a Dayne, at least on a symbolic level, let's take a look at the other criterion -- the problem of his worthiness.  Whereas he's admittedly been more than a bit of a shameless scoundrel previously, we've acknowledged that Jaime has taken the first step on his journey in the 'right' (actually 'left'!) direction by symbolically breaking his false sword -- i.e. his right hand.  A broken sword can be reforged, a broken sword can kill etc. Broken swords, or limbs, are pregnant with possibility -- like weirwood or oak 'stumps'  (Bran, Theon, and Jaime all have 'stumps' undergoing 'reforging').  

In case we are 'as thick as a castle wall,' GRRM spells out the symbolism for us, showing the reader that Jaime has recognised the symbolism for himself in the Harrenhal bathhouse.  Let's parse that scene (I'll put my comments in purple):

Quote

Jaime felt a hundred and nine years old, which was a deal better than he had been feeling when he came to Harrenhal. [Jaime's growing up, a contrast to how previously he used to behave quite immaturely 'taking the piss' etc.]

Brienne shrunk away from him. "There are other tubs."

"This one suits me well enough." Gingerly, he immersed himself  up to the chin in the steaming water. [On the recent 'nennymoan' thread, we've been discussing the idea of immersion/drowning as being symbolically related to reforging oneself (water baths or other water-processing is also integral to sword forging, e.g. 'quenching', and maintenance, e.g. sharpening by 'whetting', which is a pun on 'wetting').  Accordingly, whenever we see a watery location (pools, seas, rivers, baths, etc.), we should sit up and take note.  The Harrenhal bath tub is symbolic of Jaime's baptism, rebirth, 'rising harder and stronger,' 'redemption arc'...With some imagination, the bathtub can be configured as a womb, so the fact that Jaime chooses to immerse himself in the same tub as Brienne, rather than in a separate bath, is significant.  His choice implies that he has chosen Brienne as his new twin, to begin the next half of his journey!  After all, Jaime and Cersei were 'fraternal twins' born from the same womb.] "Have no fear, wench. Your thighs are purple and green, and I'm not interested in what you've got between them." [This is a lie, self-denial.  His erection which follows disproves this assertion.] He had to rest his right arm on the rim, since Qyburn had warned him to keep the linen dry. He could feel the tension drain from his legs, but his head spun. "If I faint, pull me out. No Lannister has ever drowned in his bath and I don't mean to be the first." [Lannisters have a history of drowning other people (Tywin and the Reynes, Lann and the Casterlys, Cersei and Mellara, Tyrion and the singer 'drowned' in a bowl of brown, etc.), but are loathe to take the plunge themselves.  If drowning/immersion is symbolic transformation, implying a certain self-sacrifice, then maybe Jaime will transform or reform himself in such a way as to be the first Lannister to make a sacrifice for someone else rather than of someone else.  That cynical little slogan of theirs 'A Lannister always pays his debts' means nothing other than that they prefer pro-actively sacrificing others in order to further their own interests.  Someone who espouses this philosophy is obviously unworthy of wielding Dawn, so Jaime would need to make some adjustments in his thinking].

"Why should I care how you die?"

"You swore a solemn vow." He smiled as a red flush crept up the thick white column of her neck. She turned her back to him. "Still the shy maiden? [Jaime enjoys the effect he has on Brienne. Red flush, rush of blood -- sexual undertones again.] What is it that you think I haven't seen?" He groped for the brush she had dropped, caught it with his fingers, and began to scrub himself desultorily. Even that was difficult, awkward. My left hand is good for nothing.

Still, the water darkened as the caked dirt dissolved off his skin. [Contrary to what Jaime says, the left hand is good for something -- here he uses it symbolically to cleanse himself of his 'sins' (the 'pissing on' everything, the befouling of his honor, the 'twincest,' etc.] 'The wench kept her back to him, the muscles in her great shoulders hunched and hard.

"Does the sight of my stump distress you so?" Jaime asked. "You ought to be pleased. I've lost the hand I killed the king with. The hand that flung the Stark boy from that tower. The hand I'd slide between my sister's thighs to make her wet." [Because he's right-handed, it's natural for him to grasp things with his right hand.  That's why I'm assuming it's the same hand that grasped Cersei's foot in the womb, although it's not specified as such in the text.  Also, poachers and those who strike royalty lose their dominant hand as punishment (can you think of why Jaime would be considered a symbolic poacher or thief?)  He thrust his stump at her face. [Here, the stump is configured as a weapon, not unlike threatening someone with a sword pointed in their direction-- this ties into the whole 'broken sword to be reforged' figuration going on.  Yeah, and it's also a phallic symbol, obviously, especially in conjunction with Brienne.  By the way, what did you mean by Jaime using 'different swordplay for different women'?  It certainly sounded very kinky, but I'm presuming you meant something more profound by it!   ]No wonder Renly died, with you guarding him."

She jerked to her feet as if he'd struck her, sending a wash of hot water across the tub. [Extrapolating the 'stump as broken sword' analogy, this imagery of Brienne being 'struck' accompanied by warm water spraying across the tub reminds me of that opening execution scene where Ned beheads the deserter, in which the warm blood sprays and splatters across the snow, followed by the 'delivery' of the head at Theon's feet, which @Seams and I have been comparing to a symbolic birth either of Theon as sword or facilitated by Theon as midwife] Jaime caught a glimpse of the thick blonde bush at the juncture of her thighs as she climbed out. She was much hairier than his sister. Absurdly, he felt his cock stir beneath the bathwater. [Penis as sword-- 'rising harder and stronger' in the symbolic bathtub] Now I know I have been too long away from Cersei. He averted his eyes, troubled by his body's response. "That was unworthy," he mumbled. "I'm a maimed man, and bitter. Forgive me, wench. You protected me as well as any man could have, and better than most."

She wrapped her nakedness in a towel. "Do you mock me?"

That pricked him back to anger. "Are you as thick as a castle wall? That was an apology. I am tired of fighting with you. What say we make a truce?"

"Truces are built on trust. Would you have me trust - "

"The Kingslayer, yes. The oathbreaker who murdered poor sad Aerys Targaryen." Jaime snorted. "It's not Aerys I rue, it's Robert. 'I hear they've named you Kingslayer' he said to me at his coronation feast. 'Just don't think to make it a habit.' And he laughed. Why is it that no one names Robert oathbreaker? He tore the realm apart, yet I am the one with shit for honor." [As symbolic of the authenticity of this 'truce,' and that he sincerely intends to attempt moving beyond his 'oathbreaker' persona, he later gives her 'Oathkeeper']

"Robert did all he did for love." Water ran down Brienne's legs and pooled beneath her feet.

"Robert did all he did for pride, a cunt, and a pretty face." He made a fist . . . or would have, if he'd had a hand. Pain lanced up his arm, cruel as laughter. [it's interesting that a 'stump' evokes a 'lance,' also a sharp weapon like a sword, perhaps also hinting at Jaime's symbolic reforging]

A word on 'stumps':  Stumps, like broken swords or broken trees (weirwood stumps) or broken hearts are potentially magical.  Applied to Dawn, which was forged from the heart of a fallen star, from a certain perspective Dawn too is a 'stump' -- a fallen star, which probably breaks up on impact with the earth, is a bit of a cripple like Bran, Jaime, or Theon -- which has been reforged.  

6 hours ago, Lord Martin said:

And just for good fun, if Aerys+Johanna = Jaime, Jaime would be 1/8th Dayne as well. 

You know I'm partial to that theory!

By the way, I enjoyed your astrological breakdown.  What's your take on the constellation Sword of the Morning in the context of the other constellations?

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

The last night fell black and moonless, but for once the sky was clear. "I am going up the hill to look for Ghost," he told the Thenns at the cave mouth, and they grunted and let him pass.

So many stars, he thought as he trudged up the slope through pines and firs and ash. Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. All those he shared with Ygritte, but not some of the others. We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night."

 

[ravenous reader]

Hi @Lord Martin

Wanted to edit my previous post to add:  

It just occurred to me that Brienne rising up naked out of the bathtub evokes the mythological birth of Aphrodite, who purportedly rose out of the foam of the sea (so both Jaime and Brienne are being symbolically 'reborn' or 'reforged' in the bath tub, just like the twins in my  twins-in-the-bathtub-as-womb analogy).

 Another name for Aphrodite is Venus, or the dawn goddess (making her the 'morning star')!

See this article for more on the mythological background.

So, if Brienne is the star of Jaime's morning, does that make Brienne 'Dawn' figuratively, with Jaime as her wielder?  From a certain perspective, he does indeed go on to do that, sending her on her mission to find and protect the Starks.

So, Jaime's already wielding 'Dawn'!

[LmL]

@ravenous reader going through your response here, just wanted to say that Jaime says "never give a wench a sword when her moon blood is one her," speaking about fighting with Brienne, but then when Cersei's moon blood is in her later, Jaime gives her the sword as well. That's a great scene because Cersei is on the maidens alter, completing the notion of Cersei as a sacrificed moon maiden - she's on the alter and is then "given the sword." Dead Joffrey is nearby to symbolize the fact that the child of sun and moon - Lightbringer - is a death symbol. This goes back to the idea of the LH and possibly his companions being undead. Dany's baby with her sun king was also a dead baby, and then we have Drogon in the baby's place as Dany's children, and they death symbols who are resurrected from stone in a way. Jons body will become hard and cold before he's woken, so he might be the dragon woken from stone in his version of the AA process. 

Also, the Smiling Knight says to Arthur "it's that white sword of your I want," and he says "then you shall have it ser." So giving someone a sword can be killing, fucking, or just giving someone a sword as a present (as Jaime did Brienne). 

[LmL]

20 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Hi @Lord Martin

Wanted to edit my previous post to add:  

It just occurred to me that Brienne rising up naked out of the bathtub evokes the mythological birth of Aphrodite, who purportedly rose out of the foam of the sea (so both Jaime and Brienne are being symbolically 'reborn' or 'reforged' in the bath tub, just like the twins in my  twins-in-the-bathtub-as-womb analogy).

 Another name for Aphrodite is Venus, or the dawn goddess (making her the 'morning star')!

See this article for more on the mythological background.

So, if Brienne is the star of Jaime's morning, does that make Brienne 'Dawn' figuratively, with Jaime as her wielder?  From a certain perspective, he does indeed go on to do that, sending her on her mission to find and protect the Starks.

So, Jaime's already wielding 'Dawn'!

I would agree on Brienne's Morningstar symbolism - she is a mix of cow symbolism (lunar) and Morningstar symbolism, because in this mythical astronomy template the moon explodes to create Lightbringer, both reborn comet and meteor version, and these lightbringer projectiles are draped with Morningstar mythology (George basically transferred Morningstar mythology over to the comet and meteors). Brienne veing called "the beauty" is a Venus allusion, and Dany gets one when she wished to wear starlight and sea foam for Daario. She too is a lunar figure turned Morningstar. 

But I am not sure about perceiving Brienne as Dawn, although I am. or saying definitely no. People are of course equated with swords. Jaime himself IS a white sword, living in a white sword tower. Brienne lines up with Dawn if you follow my mythical astronomy actually, because unlike Dany who plays a fiery moon maiden, Brienne is the blue type, which would be icy. Like Lyanna and the NQ, she would be a cold moon maiden, and that I believe is referring to the "ice moon" in the two moon scenario. The children of the fire moon - the black Lightbringer meteors - line up with dragons and Valyrian steel as symbols. The children of the ice moon, symbolically, would be icy meteors, represented by the Others and by white swords. I've pointed out before that the white swords (The KG) are perfect symbolic analogs to the Others, and indeed both are ice moon meteor symbols. When Brienne plays the Morningstar part of her symbolic arc, she is acting as an ice moon meteor as well, a transformed piece of ice moon. That's possibly what the Dawn meteor was, so in this round about way Brienne could symbolize Dawn. 

But, here's the thing. There's a tricky crossover here. Why does she have the black and red dragon sword if she is an ice moon maiden? There's an answer for this I believe, but it's on the long side and I will get to it eventually in my podcasting. The point is, fire and ice have to combine in different ways to solve the puzzle. The Others have cold fire, they are defeated by frozen fire. Ice that burns and fire that is frozen. The interaction between the two is kind of the story here, and it's one reason why everything is so confusing. Which sword do we need to fight Others, a black dragon sword or a white meteor dragon sword? Is Dawn Ice? 

This actually proves an interesting angle for Haime wielding Dawn. If Dawn is Ice, it's the original Stark sword. If so, Jaime has been given Neds sword once already, only to give it to someone else. Could he also claim Neds original original sword, and maybe pass that one too? 

I have been on the Darkstar steals dawn train since I read the idea on Reddit last year. I think the plan with Edric before he ditched the five year gap was to have him be given Dawn and then killed, so he can pass the sword to someone more important, like Jon or Dany or maybe Jaime I suppose. Darkstar will now play that role as Edric is too young. He will steal it and then be killed so someone more important can use it. 

[talvikorppi]

Sorry to dig up such an old thread but I was searching after info on Dawn and stumbled on this thread. And as Jaime is one of my favourite literary characters, what with all the conflict and grey complexity...

I discounted all the simplistic "Jaime is eeeevil because he defenestrated Bran!" and "Only Daynes can wield Dawn" type of replies. I think Ravenous Reader and Lord Martin especially have contributed much to examine who exactly Jaime is - he doesn't even know it himself. That's why he's an interesting character.

As to the legendary House Dayne sword, Dawn, only to be wielded by a worthy scion of that house...

Apologies that I don't know how to pull quotes on my tablet, and some of my speculation is just that, anyway. Speculation.

The books have several mentions of the Long Night that happened thousands of years ago - before the literate Andals came to Westeros. I think Sam Tarly makes a point about this. The old "history" was written down hundreds or thousands of years after the fact by Andals, or, rather, Andal maesters, even in the First Men North, so it's not all that accurate. Sam doubts it, all the timelines.

Sam, diligently (and blissfully) buried in the Castle Black library unearths a couple of pieces of information. The Children of the Forest used to give the Night's Watch dragonglass (obsidian) weapons annually. Because only dragonglass and dragonsteel can kill the Others. Jon and Sam both then speculate that "dragon steel" might be Valyrian steel.

The Long Night happened apparently 8000 years ago, long before the rise of Valyria. Long before anybody forged Valyrian steel.

Dawn, on the other hand... There's the apocryphal story of the star falling and a sword forged from it. At that time, Westeros was a First Men (Bronze Age) culture, so a steel sword would've been miraculous. Not to mention that even in our world, meteorite steel (iron+carbon) was considered superior to any Earth-made steel.

Maybe in the Long Night the only way to kill the Others was dragonglass... and this ONE sword that wasn't bronze like everybody else's. Sword of the morning...Lightbringer... Dawn. Maybe because of this unique quality, it was sent for safekeeping as far south as south goes, i.e. Dorne. House Dayne were charged with it, made the safekeepers, that's why so much mythos and legends have come attached to the sword... And the true meaning has been forgotten, or at least muddied by all kinds of later chivalry. 

Steel has become the staple weapons material since then, but ordinary steel doesn't seem affective against the Others. Only dragonglass and dragonsteel (Dawn)... But maybe reputedly "dragon-forged" Valyrian steel could be of help?

Dawn is important. Valyrian steel is important. That's why we readers have been told about these things.

Jaime gives away a priceless Valyrian steel sword to the gal who has more honour than he... the gal he secretly has the hots for, the gal he wants to retrieve his honour. With the Valyrian steel sword Oathkeeper, reforged from Ice. Jaime knows what he's doing.

Oh, and to all those who want Oathkeeper and Widows' Wail reforged back into one new Ice... Considering the wars to come, it's better to have TWO functional Valyrian steel swords than one unwieldy ceremonial, sentimental one, neh?