Stranger Things (Netflix) [Spoiler Thread]

[Kalbear]

Yeah, if anything the first season ended more as a downer, with Will back but clearly Not Right, Hooper Not Right, etc. Whereas here I think that everyone is totally fine and happy, the portal is shut, and you have Creepy McThuluface menacing impotently.

[Dr. Pepper]

I don't think I'm as into Stranger Things as everyone else, but it was still somewhat decent entertainment that I was happy to start up Season 2.  The Billy plot pretty much killed it for me.  Can't stand the gay villain trope.  I was so hoping it wasn't what I thought it was and when I googled, seems many others noticed as well.  Ugh.

[JonArryn]

37 minutes ago, Pilusmagnus said:

The first Star Wars ended on a partial but decisive victory that allowed for more developments but still provided the film with a sense of closure, while Empire Strikes Back ended on a cliffhanger.

That's why the comparison doesn't work for me. Season one does have a New Hope Ending, but Season two has rather a Return of the Jedi ending and clearly does not end on a cliffhanger.

Agreed. I wrote that I bought it about the original Star Wars trilogy, but not Back to the Future. But one reason for Star Wars having more closure is that the story wasn't fully fleshed out yet. If you look at ep. 4 alone, Luke and Leia are teased to be romantic, and some makes the point that Lucas actually didn't write them as siblings until he wrote the script for episode 5. In the same way that Darth Vader is his real name, not just the sith name he takes. Back to the point, ep. 4 has to have closure, because they didn't know yet that it was gonna be a franchise. Which maybe makes it less of a trope, and more because of marketing reasons. 

As for Stranger Things, agreed. I too thought, they were gonna go the route of the sequel being the darkest time for the characters. Like Empire Strikes Back and a lot of sequels. They take their characters, deepens them and then end on a very dark note which makes it more tense for the upcoming final chapter of the story. Where the viewer wonders how the characters are even gonna come out on the other end. But maybe they will do this for season 3 instead, since they have some more seasons. But I agree, that a bit more melancholy maybe would have worked better. Too much of a neat ending, and all the characters are basically in the same place they were when season 1 ended. 

Anyway. That's not to say I didn't enjoy this season. It's good entertainment, and sometimes that's all you need. They did make a good job of fleshing out some characters too, and all the kids patrs were good. ALthough I don't get Hopper or Joyce. I don't know what it is, if it's acting-wise maybe, but I don't think their characters work the way they're intended. 

 

[karaddin]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Eh. It felt like a deliberate trope, not an inversion at all. Max being the feisty younger sibling who tells off her older sibling and gets them to change their ways is as much a trope as anything in the 80s ever was. Steve was a much better, more nuanced version of Billy; as far as I can tell Billy is simply a walking stereotype. The bullies in S1 were far more interesting as minor villains than Billy ever ends up being, especially since they vaguely drive something of the plot; cut Billy out and the only thing you lose is Steve getting his ass kicked and not being able to tell the kids 'no' when they go off. 

Him being more of a villain in S3 would be even worse, as he's just not that compelling.

I'm not defending the execution as it feels hamfisted, but I think the show runners have felt the need to respond to real life developments from the last year by including certain things in the show. Season 1 showed essentially no racism despite having a black kid as one of the central 5 characters set in the 80s because it wasn't really set in the 80s, it was set in 80s movies which didn't focus on that. This season we get casual racism around the Ghostbusters character selection and we get explicit white supremacy from Billy.

We also dwell a lot on the trauma inflicted by the Government on American individuals through experimentation, particularly important to keep in mind as the government agents this season were genuinely good. That's what I think was meant to be the point of 008 and the Chicago scenes as well but it fell flat for most.

While the execution wasn't there, I'm not going to criticise them much because I think people creating art recognising the importance of this stuff is good and to be encouraged.

[Kalbear]

If that's the case they should have made the parents more casually racist or something, not Token Douchebag. 

As to the 008 thing, I thought that was more about showing a bigger world than Hawkins and expanding the scope. Plus bringing Brenner back into the game, who is clearly going to be a Burke-like douchebag going forward. Bet you $5 that we have to deal with the ramifications of the DemoDog in the fridge next year, and some kind of Gremlins 2 or Aliens plot on weaponizing them. 

[karaddin]

I think it's that as well, it's serving both purposes - one a thematic one, the other a plot one.

ETA: Don't disagree on Bobby/parents, although they weren't really involved enough to see that. I assumed we will see his Dad at least is just as racist next season.

[JonArryn]

2 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I think it's that as well, it's serving both purposes - one a thematic one, the other a plot one.

ETA: Don't disagree on Bobby/parents, although they weren't really involved enough to see that. I assumed we will see his Dad at least is just as racist next season.

Why does everything these days have to be about racism? Maybe the reason there wasn't anything said about racism in season 1 was because they were 4 friends who didn't give a shit about Lucas skin color. To force things into art because of the political climate today is something that will never benefit the arts. 

[karaddin]

Yes, art has never been political 

It matters because depicting past era and eliminating things like racism leads to people thinking it doesn't/didn't exist. I didn't criticise season 1 for not tackling that subject, but I do laud season 2 for attempting to recognise that. And if you can look at America in 2017 and think this isn't very much a huge deal that artists might feel they should be trying to have a positive influence on.... That says a whole lot about you.

[Martini Sigil]

I actually thought S2 was even better than S1... MBB is a singularly talented young lady.... and the Duffer Brothers are friggin' terrific... Now that they've proven that S1 wasn't a fluke, I think that everyone attached will be able to warrant big pay checks... Finn Wolfhard (Mike) was really good in It ... I would love to hate this show... everyone likes it, and it stars kids... but yet I loved it.

[the tower of albion]

Maybe they should of gone the same way as American Horror Story, same cast but completely new scenario each season? (set in the 80's of course) Oh well. I plan to watch both seasons again over the Christmas fortnight I'm sure I'll appreciate the second series more on second viewing and a tummy full of junk food.

Pet theory. Season 3 will have ten episodes, season 4 eleven.

[JonArryn]

9 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Yes, art has never been political 

It matters because depicting past era and eliminating things like racism leads to people thinking it doesn't/didn't exist. I didn't criticise season 1 for not tackling that subject, but I do laud season 2 for attempting to recognise that. And if you can look at America in 2017 and think this isn't very much a huge deal that artists might feel they should be trying to have a positive influence on.... That says a whole lot about you.

Of course, it's been political and always will be. But not all art. My point is that not everything in society has to become politicized. Can we have some of our art not caring about pc culture please. Why do we even listen to some of the people that are artists today? I care as much about what Jennifer Lawrence has to say as I do a regular working 27 year old waitress. That we think the cesspool that is Hollywood should tell us what we should think is ok and isn't, no thanks. Many of the artists that tell us what we should think anyway, are the biggest hypocrites out there.

As Morgan Freeman says when being questioned about race all the time. Maybe we should just stop talking about it all the time, creating issues where there are none. And that was my point here. I'm all for portraying racism in shows and movies where it fits, like slavery movies. But that every little show and movie has to think about racism and sexism, even when there are none, that's an example of where pc culture has maybe taken it a bit too far. 

[Dr. Pepper]

2 minutes ago, JonArryn said:

Of course, it's been political and always will be. But not all art. My point is that not everything in society has to become politicized. Can we have some of our art not caring about pc culture please. Why do we even listen to some of the people that are artists today? I care as much about what Jennifer Lawrence has to say as I do a regular working 27 year old waitress. That we think the cesspool that is Hollywood should tell us what we should think is ok and isn't, no thanks. Many of the artists that tell us what we should think anyway, are the biggest hypocrites out there.

As Morgan Freeman says when being questioned about race all the time. Maybe we should just stop talking about it all the time, creating issues where there are none. And that was my point here. I'm all for portraying racism in shows and movies where it fits, like slavery movies. But that every little show and movie has to think about racism and sexism, even when there are none, that's an example of where pc culture has maybe taken it a bit too far. 

So you don't want Hollywood to tell you what to think....except you definitely want them to tell you that racism didn't exist, not in the 80's at least?  

[Pilusmagnus]

By the way, I'm legitimately conflicted about the political aspect of Stranger Things. On the one hand, cultivating nostalgia for idealized days gone by really seems to play the conservatives' game. But on the other hand, all the cast and crew of the show are explicitly progressive and the proclaimed motto of the story is to shelter freaks and outcasts.

I think it really boils down to the Tolkien paradox: Why is the depiction of a quite conservative society widely read by the left?

I'm probably not very accurate about this, as I am from France and the status of fantasy is very different here. But I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

[JonArryn]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

So you don't want Hollywood to tell you what to think....except you definitely want them to tell you that racism didn't exist, not in the 80's at least?  

Uhm... dafuq. Where in my text did you see me claiming that? I said not all shows need to make points about racism, but you can interpret that any way you like I guess. What it boils down to is this. This is a completely fictional story. Therefore, if it wants it can treat racism, and if not, fine. To say that we need to make points in our art about racism because of today's society is where I don't agree. But I guess you and your lefties can talk about how racist and sexist this statement was tomorrow, so go ahead. 

[karaddin]

It came up because they seem to want to put it in their art, and did? There was no pressure to put it in, at least that I saw, I simply applauded artists who wanted to tackle this issue and somehow you translate that into me telling artists what to do. I guess that tortured logic would make sense if I wasn't a stupid leftist.

[JonArryn]

5 minutes ago, karaddin said:

It came up because they seem to want to put it in their art, and did? There was no pressure to put it in, at least that I saw, I simply applauded artists who wanted to tackle this issue and somehow you translate that into me telling artists what to do. I guess that tortured logic would make sense if I wasn't a stupid leftist.

Well. I didn't mean to turn this into a political deabte, so I apologize since I was the one that brought this up. And my bad for bringing up leftists, unwarranted and not meant at anyone specific. I may have come on a bit too strong, since this is a debate I've had both irl and online quite recently.

And I enjoyed this season very much, and didn't mind what they did regarding race. But my point was more in general. The same way that there was this huge debate about the character of Quiet in MGSV, a game I played a while ago. There were a lot of criticisms about the characters clothes and how sexist it was. But if you actually play the game it is explained and Quiet is without a doubt the most interesting and badass character in the game. We differ on this point, but I still think that it's important to keep some pc things out of art, for different reasons. We have these debates today about things which makes no sense. The way there are made issues out of pretty much anything that doesn't fit with some peoples point of view. Anyway, a bit rambling but just wanted to clarify it. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

There was one part where Dr. Owens was explaining to Joyce about how Will had a virus, but that the good news was viruses could be cured, and I remember thinking, "oh. . . you mean like that other virus that was going around in 1984?" I don't know if that was an intentional piece of irony (I'm guessing probably not) but it did catch my attention. 

[Gertrude]

I enjoyed it, but it lost some of it's magic this season. Kinda agree with some of Kalbear's assessment. The characters didn't talk to each other when they could/should have. The character of Billy was completely unnecessary and didn't add anything to the story except a nice ass. The Chicago gang wasn't really compelling for me. It was something for Elle to do and she grew from it, but I didn't find it interesting. Someone asked if anyone found the girl with the afro more interesting than Kali. ME! I did. I even found the Madonna girl more interesting. When Kali was teaching Elle to channel her anger, there was no fire there for me and it felt really flat. Dunno, maybe it's cause I was kinda tuning them out by that point.

But I do have an actual question. What did Billy bring to the story that was worth having? Because I honestly hated every scene with him in it and only barely tolerated him when he played off Max. I didn't even find him attractive because I was skeeved out by that horrible mullet. This is coming from an 80's girl, so let me tell you what - that mullet was gross. So I guess kudos to the costume designer?  Dustin's hair on the other hand - perfection. Dustin and Steve absolutely stole the show for me, that was a brilliant idea.

I loved the fact that Bob was the resident go-to guy because he had advanced Radio Shack technical knowledge. That was a beautiful nod to days gone by.

[Dr. Pepper]

3 hours ago, JonArryn said:

Uhm... dafuq. Where in my text did you see me claiming that? I said not all shows need to make points about racism, but you can interpret that any way you like I guess. What it boils down to is this. This is a completely fictional story. Therefore, if it wants it can treat racism, and if not, fine. To say that we need to make points in our art about racism because of today's society is where I don't agree. But I guess you and your lefties can talk about how racist and sexist this statement was tomorrow, so go ahead. 

This isn't complicated.  This may be a fictional story with fantasy elements, but the setting is based off our own 1980's.  Racism existed (still exists).  You think including these facts in the setting of the show is Hollywood 'telling you what to think'.  However, not including it is just as much telling a viewer what to think.  You don't want something in a show because you think it's a certain type of statement, but fail to realize that the absence of something is also making a statement.  Your discomfort with racism being included is probably a good reason why it needed to be.  

[PetyrPunkinhead]

Binged it and the Beyond after show this weekend and thoroughly enjoyed it all. Granted, it wasn't as emotionally impactful as S1, but overall very entertaining. They did well with following the Star Wars:ESB model and splitting off the main characters. Who knew Steve & Dustin would make such a bitchin' duo. And I was all ready to hate the new characters, but I liked them all. Especially Sean Astin--Samwise Bob crushed it. 

Only request I have for ST3 is Will must absolutely get a new fucking haircut. Because I can't even with that thing on his head for one more damn episode.