Is Arya the new psycho?

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

16 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Sansa did what Ramsay, a psycopath, would do.

Arya gave Walder Frey the Rat Cook punishment. 

I'd say Sansa's the one that has a higher chance of becoming the new Ramsay. 

Arya also spared Lady Crane although she would have personally benefited from killing her. Arya can be very ruthless and cruel but only to her enemies. She is kind and protective towards her friends.

Sansa's manipulation of Jon and abandonment of Rickon show that she is ruthless to both enemies and friends. Her behavior is very similar to Ramsay's.

Sansa does not have friends and enemies, she only has people that are useful and people that are useless. Jon was useful in gathering up an army. Rickon was useful in motivating Jon to attack Winterfell. However, once Jon's army proved to be too small she needed to turn to Littlefinger. She also needed to make sure that the Vale was under her control not Jon's. Thus, she kept the Vale army's existence from Jon. Once Jon was committed to attacking Winterfell, she also decided to give up on rescuing Rickon since he was no longer useful to her. 

Her manipulative actions towards her own family members are reminiscent of Littlefinger, Ramsay and Tywin. She is a much better fit for the new psychopath role than Arya.  

There's even speculation that she might betray Jon next season. I don't see how that can lead to a positive end for Sansa.

I'm not saying Sansa is all nice and innocent here, I just felt Arya's punishment for Walder was much more methodical and ruthless (feeding someone their own children before killing them? That's pretty savage imo lol). Also not saying it wasn't warranted either, Walder Frey didn't deserve to die a natural and peaceful death. I don't see a happy ending for either stark girl, or anyone on this show tbh. Pretty much every character has done some fucked up things and will continue to into the final 2 seasons. I do agree that Ramsay has rubbed off on Sansa though. That smile she gave while walking away after feeding Ramsay to his own hounds was obvious. I was getting annoyed when the show was airing and Sansa would say something like "I still feel him inside of me" and everybody was going "OMG SHE PREG" and i'm sitting back like "that's not what she means idiots...."

 

And when it comes to Rickon, I think Sansa wasn't being ruthless, she was being practical, she knew Ramsay and knew Rickon wasn't gonna survive long and that Rickon was only still alive because he was being used as bait. Sansa knew the moment Ramsay got Jon into a field in front of him that Rickon was a dead man walking. Jon on the other hand was being naive in believing he'd be able to get Rickon back alive after reading the pink letter. I'm pretty sure if Sansa knew there was a chance that they could of saved Rickon she would of taken it, but she knew there was no chance.

 

So let's just agree that both Stark girls are messed up in the head now and I wouldn't want either of them as my wife lol

[TheLastLibrarian]

Arya, a horseface and a psychopath? yes, it's the perfect combination

[Meera of Tarth]

9 hours ago, TheLastLibrarian said:

Arya, a horseface and a psychopath? yes, it's the perfect combination

Actually, you are mixing things up. Arya is only called this way in the books (and in fact she isn't because it's just a nickname to make her feel insecure) and, in the books, she is not a psycopath. She doesn't behave like one.

The problem with the show is that I don't think she either is one in it, but in the final episodes of the last two seasons I could agree she behaves like one, to be precise, like a very dangerous one, a sadist who loves torturing (although we could also argue that she is just a sadist who seeks vengeance).

Anyway, no matter what, it's completely  out of her character because she never shows she likes torturing people during the other 18 episodes

IMO those two sadistic scenes are for shock value only. It's one of the inconsistencies of the show.

[Arya Targaryen]

I don't see why anything Arya did to the Freys would classify as being a psycho. Sure, 21st century modern people will find it disgusting, but truth be told, cutting someone's throat is not sadism, as it doesn't result in long suffering. Neither is decapitating or hanging - they are really quick ways of dying (I think - though it can get ugly, too). And we don't know how she killed the two Frey boys, but I don't think she was torturing them. After they are dead - yes, it is tough to bake them into a pie, but we have the Rat Cook doing the same thing - and it's a story about the consequences of breaking guest right. Ramsay getting fed to his dogs, and Walders' sons being fed to Walder - these are poetic justice. The only difference I see, is that being fed to dogs is probably a much more cruel death than Walder's.

With these two vengence-against-enemies things and seeing the girls' reactions, I can't help but wonder where we are all going. Arya's arc was mostly about getting vengence, and learning how to kill people. She also has very strong ties to her family, especially Jon. Sansa's arc was mostly about surviving, and acting as a Lady should do, until recently, when she decided to have her own vengence and took active part in achieving it. Also, her ties to her family is the weakest.

I think we might be going to a direction where both girls are in a similar place (balancing between giving justice and having a cruel vengence) - that's where we are right now, at the end of S6 - and from now on, they will become more and more like their former respective self (sort of) - Sansa will become the vengeful one, and Arya the more Lady-like, because of her strong connection to her family will result in being able to give up searching for more vengence. Sansa is much more vulnerable at this point, I think.

[OldGimletEye]

On 7/24/2016 at 11:39 AM, ADanceWithCats said:

Maybe yes. But even assuming that it is so, characters don't always make the 'right' or 'good' decisions. In fact, that is what I speculated in my first post in this thread - that Sansa and Arya are bound for some wrong decisions in the next season.

I don't disagree that returning to King's Landing would represent a regression, for both the Hound and Arya. But I fail to see why such a regression would be impossible. And I fail to see why it should be impossible, either - there are still two seasons to go, so clearly there is some drama still to come for all the endgame characters involved. Arya moving to King's Landing with the Hound still allows her to reunite with the Starks - in Season 8, after she moves North with Dany's camp.

I suppose lots of things are “possible”. However, whether it’s even worth writing about something, because its technically “possible” is a quite a different matter. Particularly, if the chances of it happening are very small.

And trying to “bolster” a prediction by just saying “well, you should expect the opposite to happen” is a pretty poor idea. It’s pretty much a tacit admission that the present information and evidence doesn’t really point to your current prediction or speculation.

The show has indicated that Sandor will be going North. Maybe he will linger in the RL for a while, but there is no really good reason to suppose he will end up going south. Arya has stated that she is going to Winterfell. It seems at this time, they will both heading North, probably together in some fashion, and won't be turning South.

And besides the issue of intentions of both Arya and Sandor, whether those intentions are stated or implied, there seems to be some other hurdles that make Arya and Sandor going to KL unlikely. For one, it's not like Sandor can just sashay right on into KL. There aren't many guys running around Westeros that look like him. And you would have to wonder how Arya would even talk Sandor into going into KL with her. Certainly, telling him that would be his chance to kill Gregor doesn't seem quite right. Sandor taking up an offer just to kill Gregor isn't just some random deflection around the trend. It's a complete reversal of his character. In the books, the EB stated the Hound was dead. A major part of the Hound persona was the obsession with his brother. For Sandor to choose to kill Gregor, and turn his back on other matters, would be huge regression for him. I don't see it happening. The Hound is gone. And also, you have to wonder, if Arya hears that her beloved brother has been declared KITN, which doesn't seem improbable, whether she would forgo the chance to see him and then proceed to the South.

In short, maybe it's possible that Sandor and Arya will head to KL, but the chances look very small at this point. And just saying, "well it's because the opposite will happen!" doesn't really strengthen the argument all that much.

Also, you know, saying something like “it’s possible that Arya will kill Sandor” doesn’t come off as a prediction that is based on the evidence known to us. It's pretty much a random idea out of blue.  Just because there might be a tiny, tiny probability it could happen doesn’t make the assertion even remotely sensible or worth writing about. Rather than trying to make future predictions based on the evidence before us, it comes off more like flailing around and grasping for straws.Just saying "well, the opposite will happen" comes off like trying to put lipstick on a pig and then saying,"That pig sure is purrrrtty. Don't y'all agree?" One may think the pig is purrrty and deserves to grace the cover of top fashion magazines, but that doesn't make it true

On 7/24/2016 at 11:39 AM, ADanceWithCats said:

And actually... predicting the opposite is a pretty good speculation method. Last year, Cersei was walking naked through King's Landing. This season, she's the Queen. Last year, Jon was dead. Now, he's a king. Last year, Dany was in the middle of nowhere, and seemed further than ever from leaving Essos. This year, she's left. The character arcs are sinusoidal - fall followed by rise followed by fall followed by rise.... That's why this year, people are speculating that Dany will encounter trouble on her way to Westeros (most likely Euron taking over a dragon or dragons) - precisely because she's stronger than ever.

None of these examples makes the thrust of your argument compelling. All of them were fairly predictable, particularly to those that are more than mere casual watchers of the show and even more so to students of the source material and watchers of the show.

Let’s start with Jon. It’s not surprising, at all, that he would come back and would become the leader of the North, whether in a de jure manner or in a de factor manner. I have personally written about Jon becoming the leader in the North, well before season 6. And I certainly do not claim to be the brightest crayon in box. Other fairly serious students of the story had come to the same conclusion.

There were many reasons to suspect that Jon would, in some manner, become the leader of the North, if only temporarily. A good reason to have predicted that he would do so is because he was about the only person in the story capable of putting together a NW, Wilding, and Northern coalition to fight the Others. He was the only character that had connections to the NW, the traditional ruling family of the North, and the Wildings.

And nobody, with a lick of sense, would have thought Dany would stay in Essos forever. It’s always been clear that Dany would make it to Westeros, if anything for basic structural reasons. It would make little sense for GRRM to have written a significant amount of Dany chapters only to have her remain in Essos forever. If he had wanted to write a story about an exiled Targaryen princess that came to live or rule in Essos, and never set foot in Westeros, he’d would have put that in a separate novel, rather than writing her story as part of ASOIAF.

And most people, who are more than mere casual watchers of the show, knew it was highly probable that Dany would eventually assume a leadership role among the Dothraki.

As far as Dany running into trouble in Westeros, that too isn’t something that will be surprising. Many people are aware of it and have put forth their reasons. Personally, I think one of the biggest set backs for Dany will be a conflict with Dorne. That potential conflict has been seemingly set up in the books. I’ve written about it before. And the show has seemingly set up a possibility that Dany will butt heads with Dorne, although the reasons in the show will be different with the character of Aegon being absent. But the reasons for thinking that Dany will have a conflict with Dorne isn’t based on some notion of “the opposite of what you will expect will happen dun,dun,dun!”, but precisely because the clues are there.

The fact is that the expectations with respect to characters like Jon and Dany are becoming fairly well anchored at this point. And that’s okay. The story has progressed to the point where throwing a major surprise, like Jon or Dany up and dying before the end of the story, would be poor storytelling.

And while somebody like Sandor isn’t a top tier character like Jon or Dany, the fact is that expectations with his character are becoming fairly well anchored. It’s seems highly likely at this point that his destiny lies with House Stark, in some manner, mainly through the bonds he has developed with both the Stark girls. There is plenty of evidence pointing in that direction. And little subtle things like the fact that dogs are close relatives of wolves. And if that little point is too subtle, perhaps then, Sandor kind drives the point home when he tells Arya something to the affect that wild woves are kin to him and Arya in the books. If you don’t like that outcome, then come up with something better than “but, but, we should expect the opposite to happen!”

Just applying the theory of the opposite will happen

1. Dany never makes it to Westeros because her entire fleet sinks and she drowns.

Does anyone think this going to happen? I mean surely it would be the opposite of what we would expect. And surely, it’s “possible”. Maybe Dany’s fleet gets hit by a bad Storm. Or maybe it gets sunk by submarines or something. It’s possible right? But, it’s highly unlikely it’s going to happen. So, talking about it is tantamount to nonsense.

2. Cersei will ultimately prevail and will ultimately unite Westeros against the Others and will end up as the Hero of the story.

Does anybody really think this going to happen? Surely, it’s the complete opposite of what we expect. I mean it’s possible right? Should anyone waste time on it? Probably not.

On 7/24/2016 at 11:39 AM, ADanceWithCats said:

Cersei and Littlefinger also are bound for a fall precisely because they have scored major victories this year.

Well, if we’re going with the theory of “expect the opposite to happen” as our workhorse algorithm here, then I say this prediction fails to compute for the reason it fails to converge. There is no equilibrium point for our expectations here.

Let’s say our initial expectation is that Cersei and Littlefinger will ultimately fall. Well, if we’re applying the “opposite will happen” algorthim to our initial expectations, then we end up with Cersei and Littliefinger will prevail. But if the opposite happens from our expectations shouldn’t we apply the opposite will happen algorithm again and conclude that Cersei and Littlefinger will fall? But then it seems we should apply the opposite will happen algorithm again to our newest expectations, getting Cersei and Littlefinger will prevail. And round and round we go, where it stops nobody knows.

Perhaps it’s the case that you’ve applied the opposite will happen algorithm enough times, making successful predictions in the process, you could suggest to us all at what iteration we she stop at to make a final prediction.

On 7/24/2016 at 11:39 AM, ADanceWithCats said:

So, given the choice to travel North or South, the likely bet is that Arya will travel South, before she travels North. 

Then again, if we expect Arya to travel South, and we apply the opposite will happen algorithm to that, we end up with wuuut? Arya travels North. But, if after doing that we should apply the algorithm again getting Arya will travel South. But, then again…..

It’s probably just easier to consider Arya’s stated intention to go to WF, the fact she is likely to reunite with Sandor, and it’s being indicated that Sandor has decided to go North as well.

On 7/24/2016 at 11:39 AM, ADanceWithCats said:

And given the choice between Littlefinger and Jon, the likely bet is that Sansa will choose Littlefinger, before she chooses (aromantically, obviously) Jon.

Using your workhorse algorithm, for story prediction, how did you arrive at this conclusion exactly?

On 7/24/2016 at 11:39 AM, ADanceWithCats said:

It's a pretty simple system, sure, but it checks out.

No, it's pretty much nonsense.

[Masha]

Whats the deal with all new "Is Sansa the New Psycho" or "Is Arya the New Psycho" threads?