Is Arya the new psycho?

[Blackphillip]

Between the white walkers and red priests and priestesses, there is much activity regarding "the many faced god", in westros.  Maybe I am reading too far into it, but I genuinely think the FM intended Arya to be trained and to return to Westros.  She is the instrument of yet another God, among Gods, who seem to be playing their own game.

[maja89]

comparing Arya to Ramsey is HUGE exaggeration, but I do think that we are supposed to be worried about her - just the way we are supposed to be worried about Sansa BTW. They are both at similar place right now, and all the differences in their behaviors result from differences in their personalities (Arya being more "northern" and Sansa belonging more to South), but they both just deeply traumatized girls who are trying to survive and cope.

they are both wolves, these girls of Stark

I just hope it's not too late for them to get their happy endings (or semi-happy endings)

BTW fights between fanatic Sansa and Arya fans are probably the ugliest part of this forum

[sweetsunray]

On 18-7-2016 at 4:47 PM, Masha said:

Not really, not any Westerosi noble and frankly speaking I doubting that even if any North Lords were there they would too. 

You don't see Westerosi nobles going around and hunting deserters in Braavos or any other free cities. At best they hire assassins to kill someone important.  You don't see Westerosi enforcing THEIR laws in Braavos and your don't see Braavosi enforcing THEIR laws in Westeros, because different countries and different laws.

Arya just went and killed the guy, because somewhere in her memory she assumed her father would. Except her father followed the laws of Westeros and the North. You don't see Ned sending people after Jorah once he left Westeros, running from his judgement, do you? Because Ned and most normal people understand that laws are enforced within the boundaries of said country.

I count it as a sign of her growing psychopathic murderous tendencies. And defending it as "all westerosi would do it because law", well its Braavos and Westerosi laws do not apply at all.

There is an immense difference between whether Arya actually had the legal right to dispense Westerosi, Northmen justice in Braavos and what Arya aimed for. She aimed for justice, Northern style, albeit in an area where she has no legal jurisdiction for it, nor is she a ruler. So, yes, you can say "she had no right", but you can't say "she's a pychopath" for applying the justice system she knows. She's a kid training to be an assassin not yet knowing the rules of the assassin guild.

BTW it wasn't just for him bragging about being a deserter imo. She had been watching him for a while already, and he was too overfly fond of a young girl and telling the girl lies. Arya judged him to be a lying, cheat and deserter imo. Same goes for the man she kills as Mercy in the released chapter. And Weese liking to beat up little girls like her. Or Chiswyck bragging about gang-raping a girl. Those are not the sole people on her book list, but it's a red flag for her. In the show it absolutely is a red flag - aside from the Waif and the stable boy, that's basically everyone she kills - adult men talking rape or wanting to rape, especially young girls. Why do you think they showed Walder with pretty much a child bride he slapped on the bum?

[Masha]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

There is an immense difference between whether Arya actually had the legal right to dispense Westerosi, Northmen justice in Braavos and what Arya aimed for. She aimed for justice, Northern style, albeit in an area where she has no legal jurisdiction for it, nor is she a ruler. So, yes, you can say "she had no right", but you can't say "she's a pychopath" for applying the justice system she knows.

BTW it wasn't just for him bragging about being a deserter imo. She had been watching him for a while already, and he was too overfly fond of a young girl and telling the girl lies. Arya judged him to be a lying, cheat and deserter imo. Same goes for the man she kills as Mercy in the released chapter. And Weese liking to beat up little girls like her. Or Chiswyck bragging about gang-raping a girl. Those are not the sole people on her book list, but it's a red flag for her. In the show it absolutely is a red flag - aside from the Waif and the stable boy, that's basically everyone she kills - adult men talking rape or wanting to rape, especially young girls. Why do you think they showed Walder with pretty much a child bride he slapped on the bum?

I just don't know. So she is psycho vigilante now?

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Masha said:

I just don't know. So she is psycho vigilante now?

Arya is no psycho, no. Psychopaths have no conscious, don't care about justice, and everything and everyone is game for them. Psychopaths don't care about anyone, or that someone else treats other people badly.

Arya did care about Lady Crane. Arya cared about little girls being taken to a brothel to be beaten. Arya cared for Syrio, etc. Admittedly I found the Walder Frey and Trant murder plain overboard. But that's d$d for you. Is Sandor a psycho for planting an axe in a guy's crotch? Is Brienne a psycho for beheading a lord/king claimant while he's wounded and lying against a tree. Is Brienne a psycho for slashing a man's throat while he's trapped beneath a horse? Is book-Manderly a psycho because he baked two Freys into pies?

The answer to all of that is no.

[Future Null Infinity]

54 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Arya did care about Lady Crane. Arya cared about little girls being taken to a brothel to be beaten. Arya cared for Syrio, etc. Admittedly I found the Walder Frey and Trant murder plain overboard. But that's d$d for you. Is Sandor a psycho for planting an axe in a guy's crotch? Is Brienne a psycho for beheading a lord/king claimant while he's wounded and lying against a tree. Is Brienne a psycho for slashing a man's throat while he's trapped beneath a horse? Is book-Manderly a psycho because he baked two Freys into pies?

I see your point, and I know that Arya have compassion in her, but unlike Sandor or Brienne who kill with one slash, Arya is making innovations in the art of killing, her name is Mercy so she can kill with one stab in the heart or with some poison but no, she made some masterpieces with Trant and the Freys (a contrast for me), and she was smiling (I don't know if she enjoyed the kill but probably she's enjoying the sweet vengeance), for me there is a parallel between Arya and Melisandre,  Melisandre is a psychopath because she burned Shireen alive but her intentions are good, she wants to save the world, same thing with Arya, she enjoys put eyes out, baking bodies, enjoying and smiling for blood and death but her intentions are good but there are no good or bad psychopaths, there are only  psychopaths

[Masha]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Arya is no psycho, no. Psychopaths have no conscious, don't care about justice, and everything and everyone is game for them. Psychopaths don't care about anyone, or that someone else treats other people badly.

Arya did care about Lady Crane. Arya cared about little girls being taken to a brothel to be beaten. Arya cared for Syrio, etc. Admittedly I found the Walder Frey and Trant murder plain overboard. But that's d$d for you. Is Sandor a psycho for planting an axe in a guy's crotch? Is Brienne a psycho for beheading a lord/king claimant while he's wounded and lying against a tree. Is Brienne a psycho for slashing a man's throat while he's trapped beneath a horse? Is book-Manderly a psycho because he baked two Freys into pies?

The answer to all of that is no.

There are two points of thought there. First, Arya is still in "good guy/gal" camp and is justified in her murders as vengeance for her family and her friends. TV does point in that direction, since all her victims were on her list other then Waif, and then its self-defense. And I would agree with you on that, except.... she ENJOYS the acts of murder. the examples you give none of the others ENJOYED their murders as much as Arya did, you get a sense of resignation, anger, just another day in life of work and duty sense from Sandor, and rightous justice from Brianne. But not on Arya's. I mean in that last minute as she held old guys head as he was dying you can see her actually getting off on that. And based on comments from D&D, it was purposely done this way to make us realize that Arya is going a very dark path and not to her family.

And secondly, In the books, people who justify Arya find excuses that 1) Vengeance 2) FM orders 3) Following laws of the North and finally 4) Hunting Pedos and criminals. I can agree with all she done for vengeance and on FM orders. But excuses that fall into 3rd and 4th category, take her to a very disturbing path.

Its not her job to enforce the laws of the North in the country/land that has completely different laws, and the charge of desertion, its like US citizen, just regular guy not secret agent CIA type, vacationing in Canada in the 60-70s, seeing a hippy claiming that he escaped the vietnam draft and then taking upon himself to kidnap the guy and then drive him back to US to face military tribunal. Would any of you attempt to justify that as anything less than disturbing?

And the notion of Arya going around finding pedophiles/potential pedophiles and then murdering them? Mind you those men are completely unknown to her, they never hurt her nor her family nor her friends. Is not disturbing at all?

 

[Lord Lannister]

42 minutes ago, Masha said:

There are two points of thought there. First, Arya is still in "good guy/gal" camp and is justified in her murders as vengeance for her family and her friends. TV does point in that direction, since all her victims were on her list other then Waif, and then its self-defense. And I would agree with you on that, except.... she ENJOYS the acts of murder. the examples you give none of the others ENJOYED their murders as much as Arya did, you get a sense of resignation, anger, just another day in life of work and duty sense from Sandor, and rightous justice from Brianne. But not on Arya's. I mean in that last minute as she held old guys head as he was dying you can see her actually getting off on that. And based on comments from D&D, it was purposely done this way to make us realize that Arya is going a very dark path and not to her family.

And secondly, In the books, people who justify Arya find excuses that 1) Vengeance 2) FM orders 3) Following laws of the North and finally 4) Hunting Pedos and criminals. I can agree with all she done for vengeance and on FM orders. But excuses that fall into 3rd and 4th category, take her to a very disturbing path.

Its not her job to enforce the laws of the North in the country/land that has completely different laws, and the charge of desertion, its like US citizen, just regular guy not secret agent CIA type, vacationing in Canada in the 60-70s, seeing a hippy claiming that he escaped the vietnam draft and then taking upon himself to kidnap the guy and then drive him back to US to face military tribunal. Would any of you attempt to justify that as anything less than disturbing?

And the notion of Arya going around finding pedophiles/potential pedophiles and then murdering them? Mind you those men are completely unknown to her, they never hurt her nor her family nor her friends. Is not disturbing at all?

 

I agree completely, Arya especially has gone on to a dark path. Had she just slit Walder Frey's throat, that would've been poetic justice in a sense. Even if she had just killed his sons. But killing them, slicing them up, and serving them to Walder Frey... I'm sorry, but that's way darker to me than slaughtering the Starks under guest right in retaliation for breaking a wedding pact. That look at the end like she just experienced her first orgasm didn't help either.

[sweetsunray]

53 minutes ago, Masha said:

There are two points of thought there. First, Arya is still in "good guy/gal" camp and is justified in her murders as vengeance for her family and her friends. TV does point in that direction, since all her victims were on her list other then Waif, and then its self-defense. And I would agree with you on that, except.... she ENJOYS the acts of murder. the examples you give none of the others ENJOYED their murders as much as Arya did, you get a sense of resignation, anger, just another day in life of work and duty sense from Sandor, and rightous justice from Brianne. But not on Arya's. I mean in that last minute as she held old guys head as he was dying you can see her actually getting off on that. And based on comments from D&D, it was purposely done this way to make us realize that Arya is going a very dark path and not to her family.

And secondly, In the books, people who justify Arya find excuses that 1) Vengeance 2) FM orders 3) Following laws of the North and finally 4) Hunting Pedos and criminals. I can agree with all she done for vengeance and on FM orders. But excuses that fall into 3rd and 4th category, take her to a very disturbing path.

Its not her job to enforce the laws of the North in the country/land that has completely different laws, and the charge of desertion, its like US citizen, just regular guy not secret agent CIA type, vacationing in Canada in the 60-70s, seeing a hippy claiming that he escaped the vietnam draft and then taking upon himself to kidnap the guy and then drive him back to US to face military tribunal. Would any of you attempt to justify that as anything less than disturbing?

And the notion of Arya going around finding pedophiles/potential pedophiles and then murdering them? Mind you those men are completely unknown to her, they never hurt her nor her family nor her friends. Is not disturbing at all?

 

I very much dislike the Trant and Walder murder, because actually it does in no way fit with that of say Raff. They do give her a Manson grin, and it's over the top. It's actually the completely wrong portrayal. Because you don't become a psychopath in that way, and psychopaths don't feel any empathy for anybody at all.

There's a very important distinction between 'justifying" and 'understanding intent'. I explicitly told you in the post you quoted that you can have a very valid point that Arya has "no right" to be a vigilante. Let me repeat I DO NOT JUSTIFY VIGILANTE. I DO NOT EVEN CONDONE THE STATE KILLING ANYONE. I'm dead set against capital punihsment and I'm blessed to live in a country where there isn't any. So, could you please stop confusing arguments and muddy the waters. When we're talking 'psycho' or 'vigilante' we have the full right to inspect Arya's motives for killing who she does. And it ain't psycho. It's vigilante, regardless of whether we think a person has the right to be a vigilante or not.

That said, I also find the comparison to the US and Westeros completely inadequate. There is no police in Westeros and those who are supposed to judge and punish in Westeros even encourage actual psychopaths in committing heinous crimes against humanity. The whole justice system is non-existent and where it is applied completely corrupt. When the feudal contract is completely broken, and there is no other way of getting justice, then I understand why people, including a girl of 11 who has repeatedly witnessed the worst butchery done to people for no other reason than 'we can', feel there is no other way to get justice than through vigilantism. Perhaps it's better to compare it to Guatemala a decade ago, where men who had been part of dead squadrons for years went unpunished, put out of a job and went straight on banditism, murdering people for 100 quetzals, with nobody doing something about it. When villagers caught such a guy and lynched him I find it hard to talk high and mighty about that type of justice from my own safe world where justice isn't perfect, but at least authorities try.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Aryas character is really all over the place, I haven't enjoyed her since book 3 / season 4 and I'm a bit confused what we are meant to make of her.  If I was a fan of hers I would probably be raging RN because of Trant / Walder, not to mention the nonsense about her stupidly being stabbed.

All That said the current arc seems to be a child soldier becoming darker and darker and losing her humanity.  But I don't think she's a psychopath or way more sadistic than most.  Everyone is a bit sadistic - there is dark satisfaction to be had in seeing those who harm you punished.  For Arya this is amplified because she is getting vengeance not only for herself but she thinks also for her family and friends.  

So yeah - she could become a very dark or even villainous character.  She could kill some characters we might like.  Or she could turn again and begin to heal.  Or she could die before either happen.

[JonSnow4President]

Crazy, I could see. Dark, or going too far, or over the top, out of line, or reveling in death I could see. But as sweetsunray points out, that doesn't make her a psycopath.  She clearly feels empathy for other people.  That precludes her from being a psycopath  But like many, that empathy is not extended to pathetic excuses for humanity like Trant.  

[Masha]

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I very much dislike the Trant and Walder murder, because actually it does in no way fit with that of say Raff. They do give her a Manson grin, and it's over the top. It's actually the completely wrong portrayal. Because you don't become a psychopath in that way, and psychopaths don't feel any empathy for anybody at all.

There's a very important distinction between 'justifying" and 'understanding intent'. I explicitly told you in the post you quoted that you can have a very valid point that Arya has "no right" to be a vigilante. Let me repeat I DO NOT JUSTIFY VIGILANTE. I DO NOT EVEN CONDONE THE STATE KILLING ANYONE. I'm dead set against capital punihsment and I'm blessed to live in a country where there isn't any. So, could you please stop confusing arguments and muddy the waters. When we're talking 'psycho' or 'vigilante' we have the full right to inspect Arya's motives for killing who she does. And it ain't psycho. It's vigilante, regardless of whether we think a person has the right to be a vigilante or not.

That said, I also find the comparison to the US and Westeros completely inadequate. There is no police in Westeros and those who are supposed to judge and punish in Westeros even encourage actual psychopaths in committing heinous crimes against humanity. The whole justice system is non-existent and where it is applied completely corrupt. When the feudal contract is completely broken, and there is no other way of getting justice, then I understand why people, including a girl of 11 who has repeatedly witnessed the worst butchery done to people for no other reason than 'we can', feel there is no other way to get justice than through vigilantism. Perhaps it's better to compare it to Guatemala a decade ago, where men who had been part of dead squadrons for years went unpunished, put out of a job and went straight on banditism, murdering people for 100 quetzals, with nobody doing something about it. When villagers caught such a guy and lynched him I find it hard to talk high and mighty about that type of justice from my own safe world where justice isn't perfect, but at least authorities try.

I do understand the difference and I apologize for saying you justifying Arya's actions. 

But the example you provide does not fit Arya's situation either, because in Guatemala, I am assuming those villagers were directly affected by that guy who probably killed some of them earlier. And some of the people that Arya's killed, in the books, are guilty of either buying prostitutes or desertion and completely unknown to her or affecting any of her friends,  its hardly equivalent to mass murderers in Guatemala. The example in US/Canada I provided was related to Daeron - Night's Watch deserter, who was guilty of that and being a loud jerk.

I also understand D&D dilemma, they wanted Arya to get her skills but remain likable and not considered to be a lost cause. Several of murders that Arya commits in the books were not from her kill list nor on FM list, and would be extremely hard to justify on screen and I would include Daeron, who would have to be depicted as sadistic pedophile or do worse that beat Sam a little and still from him, in order for Arya's fans continue rooting for her and find a redemption arc for her after that. While, murders of Trant and Frey could both be described as justified and at the same time showcase Arya's descent into darkness.

[sweetsunray]

Arya's arc is indeed all over the place from one extreme to the other. And Arya making Frey Pies and killing Walder in the show is as much her arc as it is Sansa's to be raped by Ramsay. It's LS and wolves and BwB that will organize a RW2 at RR and it was Manderly who baked the Frey Pies. And the Braavos depiction was also horrible.

She's a kid who on the one hand seeks justice, and has experienced that there's no other way to get justice than doing it herself in a world where laws and even taboos have been thrown overboard when it suits others, and who hasn't felt safe for 2 years. Of course that has very disturbing and damaging results. Her stay with the BwB at least in the books gave her a rest period, and to see that just because someone is on the wolf side it doesn't make their raping and pillaging any better for folk. Her journey with Sandor teaches her to make a difference between people who are used as butcher tools by actual bad people and those that do it anyway regardless whether their boss tells them to or not (Polliver, etc) as well as the concept of mercy-killing to end someone's suffering. The HoBaW and Braavos is the first world since a long time where some type of justice exists - if someone abuses people then one of their victims can come and pray and make a sacrifice to have justice to make it stop - and that she can't just go and kill a bad guy without the framework of that prayer and sacrifice (I think Raff in the Mercy chapter is actually Arya on a job or a mission, and she's just very  lucky she can use Raff to accomplish it).   

[sweetsunray]

5 minutes ago, Masha said:

I do understand the difference and I apologize for saying you justifying Arya's actions. 

But the example you provide does not fit Arya's situation either, because in Guatemala, I am assuming those villagers were directly affected by that guy who probably killed some of them earlier. And some of the people that Arya's killed, in the books, are guilty of either buying prostitutes or desertion and completely unknown to her or affecting any of her friends,  its hardly equivalent to mass murderers in Guatemala. The example in US/Canada I provided was related to Daeron - Night's Watch deserter, who was guilty of that and being a loud jerk.

I also understand D&D dilemma, they wanted Arya to get her skills but remain likable and not considered to be a lost cause. Several of murders that Arya commits in the books were not from her kill list nor on FM list, and would be extremely hard to justify on screen and I would include Daeron, who would have to be depicted as sadistic pedophile or do worse that beat Sam a little and still from him, in order for Arya's fans continue rooting for her and find a redemption arc for her after that. While, murders of Trant and Frey could both be described as justified and at the same time showcase Arya's descent into darkness.

No, the villagers killed the bandits for robbing the cashier at Tikal, while hardly 3 little tourist vans had paid their entrance fees. The cashier was killed. They caught them in the Guatemalan jungle and they were lynched. They didn't string them up for the dead squadron crimes. They did it because of robbery and killing somone in it. The reason I mentioned the dead squadrons is because it pertained about men who had been trained to kill innocent people ruthlessly and decades of lawlesness, even within the first decade after the peace treaty and reinstallment of democracy. It is this lack of safety and effort of trying to get justice by authorities that leads to 'we have to do it ourselves'.

As for Dareon, while it's unproven, I find his callous behavior in Braavos towards Sam, Aemon and Gilly and a baby a big red warning sign as is his leering over young girls. He just tells his "I'm a victim tales" so prettily. I think Dareon is a complete jerk and I'm not sorry that he's dead, who would throw anybody under the bus if they "spoil his fun in life". That said, I agree that Arya has neither a legal right nor anywhere near a moral right to kill him. And I agree she shouldn't have done it.

[Masha]

16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No, the villagers killed the bandits for robbing the cashier at Tikal, while hardly 3 little tourist vans had paid their entrance fees. The cashier was killed. They caught them in the Guatemalan jungle and they were lynched. They didn't string them up for the dead squadron crimes. They did it because of robbery and killing somone in it. The reason I mentioned the dead squadrons is because it pertained about men who had been trained to kill innocent people ruthlessly and decades of lawlesness, even within the first decade after the peace treaty and reinstallment of democracy. It is this lack of safety and effort of trying to get justice by authorities that leads to 'we have to do it ourselves'.

As for Dareon, while it's unproven, I find his callous behavior in Braavos towards Sam, Aemon and Gilly and a baby a big red warning sign as is his leering over young girls. He just tells his "I'm a victim tales" so prettily. I think Dareon is a complete jerk and I'm not sorry that he's dead, who would throw anybody under the bus if they "spoil his fun in life". That said, I agree that Arya has neither a legal right nor anywhere near a moral right to kill him. And I agree she shouldn't have done it.

I am just saying, on the show, D&D would have to really go out of their way to show Daeron off as a horrible horrible person deserving of murder, kind of like those guys in Craster's keep, in order for Arya still remain likable and not just a budding mass murderer with vigilantist slant.

With her enjoying murders of Frey and Trant, they could show her descent and still have us root for her, worried for her, and still like her. 

[sweetsunray]

I don't like show Arya to be honest. I think she's a grotesque caricature and completely over-the-top unrealistic. But then I don't like much of the portrayal of characters in the show.

For me "grey" = "grey", and book-Arya has a lot of dark grey in her, not imo from personality disorder but as a child surviving what she did and it having broken all the safety nets for a child otherwise.

But show-Arya is "put on a white t-shirt and black jeans and say you're wearing grey" logic, with the white t-shirt = "choosing only absolute pedophile-scum" and the black jeans = "do it like Charles Manson". And I find it completely bogus. It's at the level of the fairytales as they were told to children before Disney with "little thumb" butchering the human-eating giant, or Litte Red Riding Hood cutting open the wolf to free her granny and then stuff him with stones, sow him up and throw him in a well. Those type of stories disturb adults nowadays, thinking "those aren't stories meant for children"s ears", while the kids cheer for Little Red Riding Hood. I don't find show-Arya disturbing, I find her original Grimms' tale level.

[illinifan]

3 hours ago, Masha said:

I am just saying, on the show, D&D would have to really go out of their way to show Daeron off as a horrible horrible person deserving of murder, kind of like those guys in Craster's keep, in order for Arya still remain likable and not just a budding mass murderer with vigilantist slant.

With her enjoying murders of Frey and Trant, they could show her descent and still have us root for her, worried for her, and still like her. 

I agree with you.  I cheered when Arya got Walder Frey even though I knew that I shouldn't.  

It really is a sad arc.  Arya is so far gone that her idea of being a Stark is murdering the people on her hit list rather than going home to her brother and sister.  

[wolfsbae]

On 20/07/2016 at 1:35 AM, illinifan said:

Arya is so far gone that her idea of being a Stark is murdering the people on her hit list rather than going home to her brother and sister.  

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. That's the saddest part of her story -- Ayra has been alone and disconnected for so long that her identity as a Stark is less about reconnecting with her family and more about serving her idea of northern justice to those who have wronged her.

[Lost Time]

Ramsay is the worst incarnation of the Joker whereas Arya is more The Punisher or Dexter. Clear, clear issues and would definitely be confined to a psych ward in real life present times, but she's overall chaotic good. She's so far stuck to dispensing First Men justice to really horrible people who 'had it coming', but we'll see how this affects her psyche going forward. Like if she refuses to go back home next season and just continues her murder spree in the South with no aim other than just snuffing out lives she deems unfit, then she is definitely lost.

[Cragen]

I don't see why people think that Arya Freys pie doesn't fit. She was growing on story about Rat Cook and gods judge Rat Cook to eat his offspring, as Arya see right punishment for breaking guest right is exactly what she has done to Walder. Many people here judge without knowing how is to lose someone close to you, there is no human alive who wouldn't do same or worse then Arya in her situation if they could.