Is Arya the new psycho?

[illinifan]

2 hours ago, Cragen said:

I don't see why people think that Arya Freys pie doesn't fit. She was growing on story about Rat Cook and gods judge Rat Cook to eat his offspring, as Arya see right punishment for breaking guest right is exactly what she has done to Walder. Many people here judge without knowing how is to lose someone close to you, there is no human alive who wouldn't do same or worse then Arya in her situation if they could.

There is a couple at my church whose son was murdered 10 years ago in a random act of violence.  I believe he got caught up in a gang shooting.  The couple ended up visiting and forgiving the killer.  The reason why is because the father remembers being in a support group for the parents of murdered children and another father spoke about how consumed with hate and anger he was toward his son's killer.  The father did not want to be that man who is living in the past, so he chose to forgive instead.  So yes, there is a better way than Arya's way.  It is a difficult and painful way but it is ultimately healing in a way that vengence is not.  

I get how Arya feels even thought I have never faced it.  I cheered the Frey pies myself.  But I am not sure that an Arya consumed by vengence is a positive thing.  GOT goes out of its way to tell us that revenge, violence, and war are all bad things.  We should feel concerned when are favorite characters do such things.  

[Winter's Cold]

4 hours ago, illinifan said:

There is a couple at my church whose son was murdered 10 years ago in a random act of violence.  I believe he got caught up in a gang shooting.  The couple ended up visiting and forgiving the killer.  The reason why is because the father remembers being in a support group for the parents of murdered children and another father spoke about how consumed with hate and anger he was toward his son's killer.  The father did not want to be that man who is living in the past, so he chose to forgive instead.  So yes, there is a better way than Arya's way.  It is a difficult and painful way but it is ultimately healing in a way that vengence is not.  

I get how Arya feels even thought I have never faced it.  I cheered the Frey pies myself.  But I am not sure that an Arya consumed by vengence is a positive thing.  GOT goes out of its way to tell us that revenge, violence, and war are all bad things.  We should feel concerned when are favorite characters do such things.  

Arya won't kill innocent people to obtain vengeance. She is fundamentally a good person.

[illinifan]

1 hour ago, Winter's Cold said:

Arya won't kill innocent people to obtain vengeance. She is fundamentally a good person.

You can become tainted and destroyed even by pursuing vengeance against the guilty.  That is why I started my post with the story of the couple at my church who forgave their son's killer.  They had every right to be angry and want revenge against the man who murdered their son but they chose forgiveness because they saw how the bitterness harmed other people.  

It is hard to forgive rather than to get the easy revenge.  But GOT is telling us that violence and revenge are not healthy.  What Arya is doing may feel good now but it is ruining her and sending her down a dark path.  

[WolfQueenArya]

I do not think Arya is the new psycho. The only reason she baked the Frey sons into a lie is because D and D wanted to. They didn't think of how out of character it is for Arya. I do t get why they are saying we should be worried about her when they had her get stabbed. I think she will struggle with herself, kill someone, but be saved from herself again by Nymeria and likely the Hound and her family. Her characters development demands to let go of the list and focus on her family, home, and the fight against the white walkers. 

[Cragen]

16 hours ago, illinifan said:

There is a couple at my church whose son was murdered 10 years ago in a random act of violence.  I believe he got caught up in a gang shooting.  The couple ended up visiting and forgiving the killer.  The reason why is because the father remembers being in a support group for the parents of murdered children and another father spoke about how consumed with hate and anger he was toward his son's killer.  The father did not want to be that man who is living in the past, so he chose to forgive instead.  So yes, there is a better way than Arya's way.  It is a difficult and painful way but it is ultimately healing in a way that vengence is not.  

I get how Arya feels even thought I have never faced it.  I cheered the Frey pies myself.  But I am not sure that an Arya consumed by vengence is a positive thing.  GOT goes out of its way to tell us that revenge, violence, and war are all bad things.  We should feel concerned when are favorite characters do such things.  

What about justice? When you live in modern society, state should bring justice, in society like Westeros there is no one to bring justice to Freys. So for Arya to not be psycho she should forgot and forgive and let Walder and he sons enjoy life? What is wrong with people? Of course it's anti-war story, but do you really think that good point would be to let horrible acts like Red Wedding go unpunished?

[illinifan]

5 hours ago, Cragen said:

What about justice? When you live in modern society, state should bring justice, in society like Westeros there is no one to bring justice to Freys. So for Arya to not be psycho she should forgot and forgive and let Walder and he sons enjoy life? What is wrong with people? Of course it's anti-war story, but do you really think that good point would be to let horrible acts like Red Wedding go unpunished?

Bad people go unpunished in today's world as well.  Sometimes societies even decide to forgive people who have done horrible things in favor of reconciliation.  That is what happened in South Africa.  Forgiveness becomes more important than revenge.  

And there is a difference between what Arya did and justice.  Justice to me is Sansa and Jon taking back Winterfell even in violence used or Jon executing Janos Slynt for disobeying an order.  Arya is working on pure revenge now and it is unhealthy.  A screwed up 15-year-old girl who has been through what Arya has shouldn't not be dispensing "justice."

[Winter's Cold]

2 hours ago, illinifan said:

And there is a difference between what Arya did and justice.  Justice to me is Sansa and Jon taking back Winterfell even in violence used or Jon executing Janos Slynt for disobeying an order.  Arya is working on pure revenge now and it is unhealthy.  A screwed up 15-year-old girl who has been through what Arya has shouldn't not be dispensing "justice."

So your issue is that Arya is a "screwed up 15-year-old girl" who has had bad things happen to her, therefore she should not dispense justice?

If Arya was a 20-year-old male with a peaceful and pleasant life, then Arya's actions would be justice?

Is Sandor running down and killing a young peasant boy justice?

Is Sansa having a man eaten alive by his own dogs justice?

Are these characters also psychos in your eyes? Or are their actions justice because they're older than Arya or male?

[TheLastLibrarian]

Arya needs to die, she became too dark, no way she can fix herself, we will see what the little killer will do against the sword's blade of Jaime or the Mountain in KL

[Future Null Infinity]

20 minutes ago, TheLastLibrarian said:

Arya needs to die, she became too dark, no way she can fix herself, we will see what the little killer will do against the sword's blade of Jaime or the Mountain in KL

Please, GRRM didn't spend 20 years of his life writing about epic characters like the starks just for anyone to wish them dead, it's not how the story works, please respect his work

[illinifan]

1 hour ago, Winter's Cold said:

So your issue is that Arya is a "screwed up 15-year-old girl" who has had bad things happen to her, therefore she should not dispense justice?

If Arya was a 20-year-old male with a peaceful and pleasant life, then Arya's actions would be justice?

Is Sandor running down and killing a young peasant boy justice?

Is Sansa having a man eaten alive by his own dogs justice?

Are these characters also psychos in your eyes? Or are their actions justice because they're older than Arya or male?

Arya's actions are not just or right.  Neither were Sansa's actions.  Arya reminds me of a child soldier.  I am sure the boys recruited into armies in Africa thought they were also exacting justice for those who murdered their families.  I am sure that ISIS fighters have their own kill lists like Arya and feel that the club goers and fireworks watchers have wrone them.  I am sure the black men who killed cops in the US think they are extracting justice against an unjust system.  An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.  

And Sandor showed how ugly and screwed up the system was.  But how do you fight such a system.  How do you win?  Is it even worth winning if you become the become the monster you destroyed?

[OldGimletEye]

If were going to put Arya's actions in the context of other characters actions here, then I think it's extremely difficult to argue that Arya is turning into a nut job or psycho.

So, I say no.

[dancinglion]

dany let her husband melt her brother skull.. sansa sacrifice her two brother just to get winterfell back. but arya is psycho for killing the man who behead her brother and sew his dire wolf head on him. WOW.  cant argue with that kind of logic..

[A spoon of knife and fork]

15 minutes ago, dancinglion said:

dany let her husband melt her brother skull.. sansa sacrifice her two brother just to get winterfell back. but arya is psycho for killing the man who behead her brother and sew his dire wolf head on him. WOW.  cant argue with that kind of logic..

I've no issue with her killin Walder Frey.  But the cannibalism and literally what she would have to do to make that happen was...  Very disturbing?  She killed these 2 grown men.  Chopped up their bodies, put in a meat grinder, made a pie, gave it to Walder. Then Let him eat some and kill him with a creepy grin??  Yuck.  This is like some Dexter level shit now.  

Well she may still turn a corner.  But thinking its disturbing isn't wrong IMO.  same with Trant but less extreme. 

[GhostNymeria]

16 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I've no issue with her killin Walder Frey.  But the cannibalism and literally what she would have to do to make that happen was...  Very disturbing?  She killed these 2 grown men.  Chopped up their bodies, put in a meat grinder, made a pie, gave it to Walder. Then Let him eat some and kill him with a creepy grin??  Yuck.  This is like some Dexter level shit now.  

Well she may still turn a corner.  But thinking its disturbing isn't wrong IMO.  same with Trant but less extreme. 

Yeah, her taking revenge on the Freys is one thing, but chopping up bodies and cook them is another. It's pretty disturbing. But I don't think she's a psycho though. D&D wanted to make a reference to the rat cook story and/or Wyman Manderly cooking Freys. That's the only reason they did it, and it came out way over the top for Arya's character.

[OldGimletEye]

28 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I've no issue with her killin Walder Frey.  But the cannibalism and literally what she would have to do to make that happen was...  Very disturbing?  She killed these 2 grown men.  Chopped up their bodies, put in a meat grinder, made a pie, gave it to Walder. Then Let him eat some and kill him with a creepy grin??  Yuck.  This is like some Dexter level shit now.  

Well she may still turn a corner.  But thinking its disturbing isn't wrong IMO.  same with Trant but less extreme. 

Well it's true that Arya's manner of killing Frey might have been over the top, but let's keep this in the context of what we have seen:
1. Ned killed Arthur Dayne after it was clear Dayne couldn't resist anymore.
2. Brienne killed some guy after he surrended. She also killed Stannis and then went around acting like she did the most awesome justice ever.
3. Sandra had a big old fat smirk while watching men dying in combat. She also smirked after feeding a guy alive with dogs.
4. Sandor killed some guys and then made jokes about it.
5. Dany killed some guy and didn't care if he was innocent. She also made a speech to the Dothraki that you would expect to hear at a Nuremburg rally.

So am I prepared to conclude that Arya is turning psycho at this juncture. No, I am not. Particularly if you compare her to other characters in GOT. Plus the fact she left the FM because she didn't want to kill without good reasons.
 

[dancinglion]

16 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I've no issue with her killin Walder Frey.  But the cannibalism and literally what she would have to do to make that happen was...  Very disturbing?  She killed these 2 grown men.  Chopped up their bodies, put in a meat grinder, made a pie, gave it to Walder. Then Let him eat some and kill him with a creepy grin??  Yuck.  This is like some Dexter level shit now.  

Well she may still turn a corner.  But thinking its disturbing isn't wrong IMO.  same with Trant but less extreme. 

well giving the opportunity if someone did that to my brother i would have end up doing something even worse.. form arya POV like she said every time she closes her eyes she see her family butchered. so the revenge of such an extreme level come from extreme hatred.

what i found disturbing is how someone can sacrifice her own flesh and blood for such a superficial thing. sansa who is unable to see the difference between house and home. dany well i dont have to say anything.. if arya is psycho by your definition. there is no way dany and sansa are not.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

12 minutes ago, dancinglion said:

well giving the opportunity if someone did that to my brother i would have end up doing something even worse.. form arya POV like she said every time she closes her eyes she see her family butchered. so the revenge of such an extreme level come from extreme hatred.

I don't think most people are capable of such personal violence like carving up someone's dead body.  No matter how much rage they have.

12 minutes ago, dancinglion said:

what i found disturbing is how someone can sacrifice her own flesh and blood for such a superficial thing. sansa who is unable to see the difference between house and home. dany well i dont have to say anything.. if arya is psycho by your definition. there is no way dany and sansa are not.

Sansa was protecting herself.  With Ramsey alive she cant ever be safe or free.  Also, Jon decided to fight of his own free will and Sansa warned him that maybe they shouldn't with so few men.  

Not sure what you mean about Dany.  I don't recall her cutting up anyone's dead body with her own hands and making food out of it.  Or stabbing out someone's eyes with a knife and watching them bleed out on the floor.  Giving an order to kill someone or watching them die with a small is no where near the same level.

 

22 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Well it's true that Arya's manner of killing Frey might have been over the top, but let's keep this in the context of what we have seen:

1. Ned killed Arthur Dayne after it was clear Dayne couldn't resist anymore.

Is there a maester behind that rock?  Dayne was already dead.  Mercy kill.

22 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

2. Brienne killed some guy after he surrended. She also killed Stannis and then went around acting like she did the most awesome justice ever.

It was justice, even Stannis said so "do your duty".  I don't recall her crowing about it particularly.

22 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

3. Sandra had a big old fat smirk while watching men dying in combat. She also smirked after feeding a guy alive with dogs.

She finally felt safe knowing Ramsey was dead.  I'd smile.

22 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

4. Sandor killed some guys and then made jokes about it.

"He ran.  Not very fast"

22 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

5. Dany killed some guy and didn't care if he was innocent. She also made a speech to the Dothraki that you would expect to hear at a Nuremburg rally.

She used Drogo's words to get the Dothraki riled up.  She specifically left out all the parts from Drogo's speech re: Raping and other gross stuff. 

22 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

So am I prepared to conclude that Arya is turning psycho at this juncture. No, I am not. Particularly if you compare her to other characters in GOT. Plus the fact she left the FM because she didn't want to kill without good reasons.
 

I agree, I think it was very werid considering she the Lady Crane stuff for her to go so over the top.  And yeah it was probably due to them wanting frey pie but wanting to use an existing character.  STill Trant alone is pretty disturbing.  

[OldGimletEye]

45 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Is there a maester behind that rock?  Dayne was already dead.  Mercy kill.

Was he? Could Ned have been sure he was a goner? Why not and bandage him up and at least try to save his life.

And if you want to see how a mercy killing is done, see Sandor and Arya with the archer guy. That was no mercy killing. It was purely vindictive on Ned's part.
 

45 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Is there a maester behind that rock?  Dayne was already dead.  Mercy kill.

And just who in the North empowered and authorized Brienne to carry out executions. Who in the fuck gave her that right? Nobody in the North ever swore to Renly Baratheon. And did Brienne ever consider that there might have been a legitimate dispute between Stannis and Renly over the crown? And did it ever enter her extremely thick skull, that Stannis was fighting the Boltons, the enemies of the lady she was trying to protect?

And yeah, she did go around like she did awesome justice there. And then she starts fucking with Davos. She's going to be like one of those Japanese soldier guys, after WW2, stranded on some island, and who 50 years later doesn't know the war is over.

45 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

She finally felt safe knowing Ramsey was dead.  I'd smile.

Smile after feeding a guy to dogs? Why not a simple beheading or hanging. Look, I hate Ramsay Snow, and I don't think Ramay's manner of execution makes Sansa evil. Still, it was a bit much.

Plus the fact that watching her smirk while watching hundreds of wildlings being killed or wounded is pretty off putting, even if she wants to pat herself on the back for bringing the Vale forces to the battle.

45 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

"He ran.  Not very fast"

I wasn't referring to that one. 

45 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

She used Drogo's words to get the Dothraki riled up.  She specifically left out all the parts from Drogo's speech re: Raping and other gross stuff.   

She seemed to make the killing of people in Westeros and the destruction of their fortresses look like it was going to be a really good time. Like it was going to be the best old time ever.

[dancinglion]

46 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I don't think most people are capable of such personal violence like carving up someone's dead body.  No matter how much rage they have.

maybe not from treehuggers and hippie camp.. but most people are even capable of worse... sansa feed a person to his dogs alive. and enjoy his screaming.. and get a kick out of it..

 

46 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Sansa was protecting herself.  With Ramsey alive she cant ever be safe or free.  Also, Jon decided to fight of his own free will and Sansa warned him that maybe they shouldn't with so few men.

if sansa only care about herself and have no problem killing her two brother whom she supposed to love and was just pretended.. and was manipulating everyone for her personal goals. she is the perfect example of psychopath..

 

46 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Not sure what you mean about Dany.  I don't recall her cutting up anyone's dead body with her own hands and making food out of it.  Or stabbing out someone's eyes with a knife and watching them bleed out on the floor.  Giving an order to kill someone or watching them die with a small is no where near the same level.

seeing her brother skull melt while being alive and feeling no remorse but actually rejoice .. burning people alive that is ISIS shit right there. so no that not on same level dany is thousand time worse..

[Cragen]

2 hours ago, illinifan said:

Arya's actions are not just or right.  Neither were Sansa's actions.  Arya reminds me of a child soldier.  I am sure the boys recruited into armies in Africa thought they were also exacting justice for those who murdered their families.  I am sure that ISIS fighters have their own kill lists like Arya and feel that the club goers and fireworks watchers have wrone them.  I am sure the black men who killed cops in the US think they are extracting justice against an unjust system.  An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.  

And Sandor showed how ugly and screwed up the system was.  But how do you fight such a system.  How do you win?  Is it even worth winning if you become the become the monster you destroyed?

This is what I don't understand, why is Arya monster? Killing Walder Frey in any way don't make her monster. Especially after she saw her death brother with his wolf's head attached to him. When you talking about child soldiers, do you think that they are damaged beyond redemption, do you think that non of them are able to become decent humans? I'm really tired of people who are amazed by Jamie redemption, Sandor redemption, people who can find good personality quality in Cersie, but when it comes to Arya then she is gone, she is monster.