Jon and Rhaegar comparison- in songs, in blood, in tragedy

[The Fattest Leech]

This main post may get a little long because I am updating with the new info as it is presented in one easy to read spot. Feel free to add more to this post if you found something good. This was the Melancholy of Jon and Rhaegar, but we needed a title update

This thread is based on a "what if" type of analysis because I see many posters claim Jon and Rhaegar are "nothing alike" (IF RLJ).

If you would like to discuss the events around Jon and Rhaegar and the ToJ, etc, you may be interested in the R=L=J threads. If Jon and Rhaegar are not related... well, you may be in the wrong thread, but feel free to read and add anyway When necessary, please include book quotes or George SSM sources as often as necessary along with your discussion. https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

It is no secret that George is heavily inspired by history, classic fairytales, varied mythologies, comic books and even his previous books when developing his storylines and characters. The difference between being inspired and blatantly copying these stories is how George twists the ending, even in-universe where prophecies re-tell themselves on page. So, even though Jon and Rhaegar are incredibly similar, they are not carbon copies of each other and they should have different endings.

George has set the readers up to work for the story and clues because not everything is at it seems. You have to take the entire story into account. "You know nothing, Jon Snow," is more than a stupid internet meme. It is to tell Jon, and the reader, to look deeper because this is a clue, there is more to it beyond just these words. I once counted that phrase eight times on one page. I was like, "I get it. STOP saying that!!!!", and it was then I realized that I, the reader, understood what was being said, but Jon didn't because he had not yet killed the boy to let the man be born.

Ygritte, Val and Tormund all tell Jon, "he knows nothing". This includes things like not stealing a wife form your own village because it is an abomination, just like the readers learned that warging another human is an abomination. This includes the differences between what the people south of the wall misinterpret of wildings north of the wall. This includes how Mormont tells Jon that the Night's Watch has forgotten the meaning of it's vows (which Jon realizes when he tries to save the wildlings and the rest of the realm south of the wall). Jon learns better so he can then act better.

But Jon wasn't the first character created that thinks long and hard about his family, their origins, and the consequences of their actions. Rhaegar was. Let's discuss, compare and contrast:

Rhaegar:

1. Both are related to songs. Rhaegar with the music he plays and the woman that weep at his words, Jon in other, more symbolic ways.
   • Littlefinger to Sansa: "A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands." Rhaegar is associated with the harp, as Jon is with Longclaw and the bow later on. I expanded on this in a PG 4 post here.
   • dornishdame wrote an amazing song comparison piece on page 3 that is a must read.

   • “The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle” (Bran II in A Storm of Swords)

2. popular with the smallfolk
3. Poster GhostNymeria found this great connection to their "black hearts" in a PG 4 post.
   • AGOT/Ned X: "Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her." The king drained his cup.
   • ADWD/Jon VI: Dark dreams, he thought, and guilt. His thoughts kept returning to Arya. There is no way I can help her. I put all kin aside when I said my words. If one of my men told me his sister was in peril, I would tell him that was no concern of his. Once a man had said the words his blood was black. Black as a bastard's heart.
4. Both have a deep connection to rubies, which, in turn, is a link to blood. These posts on PG 3-4 show how. Basically, rubies are the real thing, the real blood, while garnets are imitation rubies, or bastards, like the garnet blood drop Ramsay Snow wears in his ear. This could be foreshadowing to why Jon won't end up with Longclaw in the end. Jon will go from garnets to rubies.
5. Both have dragons dreams. Rhaegar literally and symbolically. Thanks to Schwarze Sonne for pointing this out on page 3.
   • From the World book: "What became of the dream of dragons was a grievous tragedy born in a moment of joy. In the fateful year 259 AC, the king summoned many of those closest to him to Summerhall, his favorite castle, there to celebrate the impending birth of his first great-grandchild, a boy later named Rhaegar, to his grandson Aerys and granddaughter Rhaella, the children of Prince Jaehaerys."
6. acted against his father and perceived vows for the greater good.
7. dies in Robert's Rebellion
   • Robert thinks Rhaegar dishonored him by stealing Lyanna and Robert killed him for that.
   • Jaime, Feast 1  Rhaegar as he is riding out to the Trident sounds an awful lot like Jon's moments before the mutiny at Castle Black: "Then guard the king," Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey."
     Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."
     Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. So the Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom.
8. when trying to steal Lyanna
9. Rhaegar keeps his "queen" locked in a tower
10. Very intelligent and excelled at what he was taught
11. Born in Dorne
12. Dies when he crossed the Trident
13. Birthplace, Summerhall, burned to ruins, born in grief
    • A Storm of Swords - Daenerys IV: ". . . of doom. He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days."
      Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar's birth only once. Perhaps the tale saddened him too much. "It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?"
      >dornishdame expanded on this in a PG 4 post
    • Thanks to Ravenous Reader for this: In this context, it's interesting that Rhaegar is said to have been 'haunted' by Summerhall, in the same way that Ned is haunted by the Tower of Joy (we know this from the insistent shades of the dead which visit him at crucial moments) and Jon is haunted by his Winterfell crypt dreams.
    • If you look at the etymology of the word Summer-hall and Winter-fell, a synonym for hall is passage or transition, while a synonym for fell is a strong seam, as in the joining of two pieces of fabric.
14. Ned thought well of Rhaegar: There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.
15. Rhaegar was naturally good at whatever he attempted. We know Rhaegar preferred to read and only swung a sword when necessary, something that seemed natural to him. ¹ Thank you to Julia H. for the clarification. PAGE 2 for more info and comaprisons.
16. Rhaegar's first encounters with Lyanna are based on Rhaegar thinking he is going after a male (Knight ot Laughing Tree), but instead it is a female. Thanks to Dornishdame for this bit.
17. Rhaegar did his part to make and hide a prince that parallels Jon's experience with Dalla and Mance's "prince" boy.
    • "Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.
    • Many others that will be linked to on pg 3
18. Rhaegar did spend a lot of time contemplating his family and his existence, and yes, he seems sad:

• A Storm of Swords - Daenerys IV

  Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar's birth only once. Perhaps the tale saddened him too much. "It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?"
  "Yes. And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved."

Jon:

1. Both are related to songs. Rhaegar with the music he plays and the woman that weep at his words, Jon in other, more symbolic ways.
   • Littlefinger to Sansa: "A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands." Rhaegar is associated with the harp, as Jon is with Longclaw and the bow later on. I expanded on this in a PG 4 post here.
   • dornishdame wrote an amazing song comparison piece on page 3 that is a must read.
   • As a matter of fact, the first Jon chapter in AGOT has Jon weeping over songs: The sounds of music and song spilled through the open windows behind him. They were the last things Jon wanted to hear. He wiped away his tears on the sleeve of his shirt, furious that he had let them fall, and turned to go.
   • She smiled again, a flash of white teeth. "And she never sung you the song o' the winter rose?"
     "I never knew my mother. Or any such song."
     "Bael the Bard made it," said Ygritte. "He was King-beyond-the-Wall a long time back. All the free folk know his songs, but might be you don't sing them in the south."
     • Funny how Jon was never told the tale or heard the song about the blue winter rose.
     • Also, how Jon seems to directly associate his mother with a song, "any such song."

   • There were tears on Ygritte’s cheeks when the song ended.

     “Why are you weeping?” Jon asked.  “It was only a song.  There are hundreds of giants, I’ve just seen them.”

     “Oh, hundreds,” she said furiously.  “You know nothing, Jon Snow.” (Jon II in A Storm of Swords)

   • Some are not good, as when Melisandre uses a spell to entrance Ghost into liking her to try and lure Jon in as well: “Ghost.”  Melisandre made the word a song. (Jon VI in A Dance with Dragons)
   • Some references are good ones. Dance, Jon VIII:
     [Jon] "I have heard you singing to him."
     [Val] "I was singing to myself. Am I to blame if he listens?" A faint smile brushed her lips. "It makes him laugh. Oh, very well. He is a sweet little monster."
2. popular with most of NW and most wildlings (smallfolk)
3. Poster GhostNymeria found this great connection to their "black hearts" in a PG 4 post.
   • AGOT/Ned X: "Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her." The king drained his cup.
   • ADWD/Jon VI: Dark dreams, he thought, and guilt. His thoughts kept returning to Arya. There is no way I can help her. I put all kin aside when I said my words. If one of my men told me his sister was in peril, I would tell him that was no concern of his. Once a man had said the words his blood was black. Black as a bastard's heart.
4. Both have a deep connection to rubies, which, in turn, is a link to blood. These posts on PG 3-4 show how.
5. Both have dragon dreams

   • A Game of Thrones - Tyrion II

     "What good is that? There are no more dragons," the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.
     "So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own."
     "You did?" the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.....Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."
6. acted against perceived vows for the greater good
7. "dies" in the mutiny (rebellion)
   • As it is written (the twist), Bowen Marsh thinks Jon dishonored his NW vows and "kills" him for that.
   • Jaime, Feast 1  Rhaegar as he is riding out to the Trident sounds an awful lot like the moments before Jon's mutiny at Castle Black: "Then guard the king," Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey."
     Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."
     Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. So the Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom.
8. when saving the wildlings*
   • There is some discussion that points to Jon stealing Val. In wildling to common tongue translation, to steal means to marry. Could this be proof that Rhaegar married Lyanna and Jon is legitimate = not a bastard?
9. Jon's potential queen/wildling princess is locked in a tower by a different dragon (Stannis).
10. Very intelligent and excelled at what he was taught
11. Born in Dorne.
12. Dies when the Free Folk/wildlings crossed the wall.
13. Ned carried (delivered?) Jon to Winterfell, Winterfell is the place that is Jon's home, burned to ruins, born in grief
    • Three examples from AGOT Eddard:  [Robert]"Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?" His voice was hoarse with remembered grief. "She deserved more than darkness …", and then again, " After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief.", and then this one, " It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing."
      >dornishdame expanded on this in a PG 4 post
    • Thanks to Ravenous Reader for this: In this context, it's interesting that Rhaegar is said to have been 'haunted' by Summerhall, in the same way that Ned is haunted by the Tower of Joy (we know this from the insistent shades of the dead which visit him at crucial moments) and Jon is haunted by his Winterfell crypt dreams.
    • If you look at the etymology of the word Summer-hall and Winter-fell, a synonym for hall is passage or transition, while a synonym for fell is a strong seam, as in the joining of two pieces of fabric. To fell is also to tear down, like Ned's request at the Tower of Joy.
14. We know Jon has this very Rhaegar-like quality where he paid that whore for her time but never bedded her because of honor = not fathering a bastard.
15. Jon is naturally good at most things he attempts. We know Jon does read, while not his favorite activity, he knows its worth and the value in knowledge and tasks Sam to read to learn everything he can about the Others. As a child, Jon also bested Robb at swordplay when they were kids and bested many of the NW new recruits when Jon arrived at Castle Black, and even though he lost to Iron Emmett the first few rounds, he learns and eventually bests him. Jon thinks this during a dream in Strom XII: "She [Cat] was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything."
16. Jon's first encounter with a lover is when he thinks he is going after a male wildling and it turns out to be a female, Ygritte.
17. Jon did his part to hide a prince that parallels his father's experience with Lyanna at the Tower of Joy.
    • "We will not kneel to you." - Mance to Jon during a parley.
    • Many others that will be linked to on pg 3
18. There are several instances of Jon thinking about Ned, Winterfell and all of his siblings... yes, even Sansa, and many make him sad. Jon thinks about, talks to or compares himself to Robb 74 times, 75 if you count the time he and Sam talked about Robb. It is double that of any other sibling, The term "father" comes up 230 times, but some of that is talk of other fathers, so I won't count that here:

• A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

Longclaw was not so long or heavy a sword as his father's Ice, but it was Valyrian steel all the same. He touched the edge of the blade to mark where the blow must fall, and Ygritte shivered. "That's cold," she said. "Go on, be quick about it."

He raised Longclaw over his head, both hands tight around the grip. One cut, with all my weight behind it. He could give her a quick clean death, at least. He was his father's son. Wasn't he? Wasn't he?

• This is an odd change of alliteration here. George usually asks things in three's. Here it is done just twice. Could it be one for Ned and one for Rhaegar?

1. A Storm of Swords - Jon III

   "If you kill a man, and never mean t', he's just as dead," Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever? He had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard's motherless bastard, with no more place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy. And even that he'd lost. When a man of the Night's Watch said his words, he put aside his old family and joined a new one, but Jon Snow had lost those brothers too.

2. A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

   ...The great stronghold of House Stark was a scorched desolation. All my memories are poisoned.

3. A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII

   The moment Jon set the letter aside, the parchment curled up again, as if eager to protect its secrets. He was not at all sure how he felt about what he had just read. Battles had been fought at Winterfell before, but never one without a Stark on one side or the other. "The castle is a shell," he said, "not Winterfell, but the ghost of Winterfell." It was painful just to think of it, much less say the words aloud. And still …

    

Jon, like Rhaegar, yearns to know his family and what could have been. He wants to know who is mother is most of all. Jon does think of Arya and often it is in close proximity to thinking of his mother. Jon knows nothing, like how Lyanna-like Arya is, and this creates a curious bond between the two. Jon and Arya are the two that look alike because Arya looks like Lyanna. Jon wants to know his mother and Arya, unbeknownst to him, is just like her. Here are just two of about a dozen examples:

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

"They were as close as brothers, once." Jon wondered if Joffrey would keep his father as the King's Hand. It did not seem likely. That might mean Lord Eddard would return to Winterfell, and his sisters as well. He might even be allowed to visit them, with Lord Mormont's permission. It would be good to see Arya's grin again and to talk with his father. I will ask him about my mother, he resolved. I am a man now, it is past time he told me. Even if she was a whore, I don't care, I want to know.

A Game of Thrones - Jon III

Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

 

 

And this brings us to Jon's last thoughts, which is of the life lesson he taught to Arya in how to use a blade/kill someone, "stick them with the pointy end", and then he says, "Ghost". Jon, who now realizes he and Ghost are one, and that he himself is more of a wildling First Man, calls out to Ghost. Is Ghost there to defend Jon as Greywind tried for Robb? Is Jon warging into Ghost to save his soul? What were Rhaegar's last thoughts?

"Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …"

 

This discussion thread is not intended as a "shipping" thread or in-depth history thread, however, I understand plotlines crossover when making your point, but please keep it relevant to the topic. I will update this main post as new info is added. Thank you to all who contribute.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Thanks for this great post. Got me quite immersed in Jon's journey all over again.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Thanks for this great post. Got me quite immersed in Jon's journey all over again.

Thank you I think now more than ever between books and hanging on to the mutiny, and the addition of the extra TWOW chapters, it is a good time to look to Jon. I admit, it is easy to get immersed in the mysteries of oily, black stone and can someone warg a dragon, and such, so sometimes a re-visit is needed.

[Lady Lark of the NorthWood]

Excellent post! I'm on my second re-read, and one thing that struck me, and, it may just be me that's noticed, but I think this whole series has an undertone of sadness, or melancholy. 

[The Fattest Leech]

19 minutes ago, Lady Lark of the NorthWood said:

Excellent post! I'm on my second re-read, and one thing that struck me, and, it may just be me that's noticed, but I think this whole series has an undertone of sadness, or melancholy. 

Thank you. Congrats on the second re-read. I have read a few times and listen to the audiobooks as well. I am still surprised at what new info and tidbits I come find each time. 

[Julia H.]

9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

<snip>

It's a very nice post full of exciting insights into how Rhaegar as his biological father is relevant to Jon's story.  

I would suggest two corrections if you don't mind.

9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

            Born in Dorne

           Birthplace, Winterfell, burned to ruins

One is that Winterfell is technically not Jon's birthplace (while Summerhall is literally where Rhaegar was born). It is the first home he remembers and the true home of his childhood, and I think the parallel still works, only the wording is not precise.

The other one is about Jon and books.

9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

We know Jon does read and he puts a lot of importance on Sam to read to learn everything he can about the Others. Jon also bested Robb at swordplay when they were kids and bested many of the NW new recruits when Jon arrived at Castle Black, and even though he lost to Iron Emmett the first few rounds, he learns and eventually bests him.

While it seems that Jon was a good student of Maester Luwin, we don't really see him reading early on. He even wonders why Tyrion reads so much. At the beginning of ACoK, when he goes to the library of Castle Black to fetch Sam, he doesn't seem to be thrilled by the books.

“You‟d be surprised. This vault is a treasure, Jon.”

“If you say so.” Jon was doubtful. Treasure meant gold, silver, and jewels, not dust, spiders, and rotting leather

Later, as Lord Commander, he is indeed very intent on finding information hidden in old or rare books. Apart from relying on Sam, he himself starts looking at books. I think he has learned to truly appreciate books and learning by this time. It still parallels Rhaegar's story but with a twist: Rhaegar was originally bookish and decided to become a swordsman when he deemed it necessary for an important purpose. Jon originally loves the song of swords, he likes practising swordplay as a sport and competing with others. He recognizes the true value of books when he needs them for an important purpose. It shows perhaps that they both can be very purpose-oriented - what must be done must be done despite the difficulties.   

[The Fattest Leech]

@Julia H. oh my goodness. You are correct. That's not quite what I wanted to say so I am changing that now. I was rushing earlier. 

[The Fattest Leech]

@Julia H. There is a quote that I did not include because of length that explains how Cat was irritated to some degree that Jon also bested Ribb at studies. I should add that back in when I get home. 

[Julia H.]

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@Julia H. There is a quote that I did not include because of length that explains how Cat was irritated to some degree that Jon also bested Ribb at studies. I should add that back in when I get home. 

It was not Lord Eddard’s face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn’s. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything.

Yes, that's why I said "it seems that Jon was a good student". (He apparently bested Robb often enough to make Catelyn annoyed.) Nevertheless, the things he enjoyed doing were apparently sports like practicing with swords, riding and hunting and maybe other outdoor activities, especially activities that he and Robb could do together, and not reading or studying. He could be a bright student, who learned quickly, and still be interested in sporty activities. There are boys like that. Rhaegar, on the other hand, may have been bookish, but I'm sure as a child he had received full training with a master-at-arms, and he was probably skillful enough even then, only it wasn't his favorite activity. His decision to become a knight didn't come from absolutely nowhere.

I would also add that being a warrior was the common expectation regarding a castle-born young man (and perhaps it was even more so in the North than in the South). Rhaegar, as a very privileged young man, a Crown Prince, could afford to defy conventions. Jon, with his bastard status, wanted to show that he was fully up to standard, so he probably enjoyed being successful in martial activities, regarded as manly, more than being successful in his studies. In addition, if their academic progress was supervised by Catelyn, it only made Jon uncomfortable. At the same time, Catelyn was less likely to be present at various martial activities, and Eddard obviously praised him without resentment, as he would praise all his sons. These things could also contribute to why Jon preferred sports to reading despite being intelligent and quick to learn. It may also be that he generally preferred practical knowledge, so the above quotation mentions "sums". At the same time, we know he wonders why Tyrion likes reading about dragons now extinct. He truly starts appreciating history when he realizes that it can be useful.  

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

It was not Lord Eddard’s face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn’s. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything.

Yes, that's why I said "it seems that Jon was a good student". (He apparently bested Robb often enough to make Catelyn annoyed.) Nevertheless, the things he enjoyed doing were apparently sports like practicing with swords, riding and hunting and maybe other outdoor activities, especially activities that he and Robb could do together, and not reading or studying. He could be a bright student, who learned quickly, and still be interested in sporty activities. There are boys like that. Rhaegar, on the other hand, may have been bookish, but I'm sure as a child he had received full training with a master-at-arms, and he was probably skillful enough even then, only it wasn't his favorite activity. His decision to become a knight didn't come from absolutely nowhere.

I would also add that being a warrior was the common expectation regarding a castle-born young man (and perhaps it was even more so in the North than in the South). Rhaegar, as a very privileged young man, a Crown Prince, could afford to defy conventions. Jon, with his bastard status, wanted to show that he was fully up to standard, so he probably enjoyed being successful in martial activities, regarded as manly, more than being successful in his studies. In addition, if their academic progress was supervised by Catelyn, it only made Jon uncomfortable. At the same time, Catelyn was less likely to be present at various martial activities, and Eddard obviously praised him without resentment, as he would praise all his sons. These things could also contribute to why Jon preferred sports to reading despite being intelligent and quick to learn. It may also be that he generally preferred practical knowledge, so the above quotation mentions "sums". At the same time, we know he wonders why Tyrion likes reading about dragons now extinct. He truly starts appreciating history when he realizes that it can be useful.  

Excellent. Thank you. This is just what I wanted to pull together here. I am still away from my computer to make any main post changes but should be back there tonight. 

[Drekinn]

Huh, didn't even think of the wildling queen in the tower... But you're right. A lot of his traits are very similar with Rhaegar. He's also wild at times, like Lyanna was described. Talking back to authority figures would be one.

[St Daga]

Thanks for this insightful look at Jon and the comparisons to Rhaegar! Jon's chapters are my favorite in the books and he is without doubt my favorite character.

Some of my favorite things about Jon, though, are things I consider Stark-like behaviors. I have always associated Jon's temper with the wolf's blood of the Starks and not the dragons blood of the Targaryens. I also really enjoy that Jon is a smart ass, mostly in his head, but sometimes right out loud. I think it demonstrates his intelligence and his ability to recognize that society's standards are not always correct.

I also recognize that Rhaegar stole Lyanna (first man marriage) and I think Jon stole Val, and Jon knows it, even if he denies it because of his vows to the Nights Watch!

I have never thought of the similarities of Summerhall and Winterfell, both being burned shells of a better time, but also in the symmetry of the names! It's really amazing how great GRRM's writing is!

5/18/17 Looking back at this post now, I am wondering how much of what is currently posted differs from your original post, not just the name. I will have to say that each reread (I'm on my third time through the books since your OP, with two prior) reveals different things to me, and the more I read, the less likely I see Rhaegar as Jon's father. 

Maybe it's unfair of me to say, but I think your previous post had more facts, and less conjecture (until we get more books, many theories are based mostly on conjecture), although I very much appreciate the time and thought placed into the post.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

53 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Thanks for this insightful look at Jon and the comparisons to Rhaegar! Jon's chapters are my favorite in the books and he is without doubt my favorite character.

Some of my favorite things about Jon, though, are things I consider Stark-like behaviors. I have always associated Jon's temper with the wolf's blood of the Starks and not the dragons blood of the Targaryens. I also really enjoy that Jon is a smart ass, mostly in his head, but sometimes right out loud. I think it demonstrates his intelligence and his ability to recognize that society's standards are not always correct.

I also recognize that Rhaegar stole Lyanna (first man marriage) and I think Jon stole Val, and Jon knows it, even if he denies it because of his vows to the Nights Watch!

I have never thought of the similarities of Summerhall and Winterfell, both being burned shells of a better time, but also in the symmetry of the names! It's really amazing how great GRRM's writing is!

I love Jon's Stark behaviors as well. Jon is very "First Man" without even realizing it, and this is also something he subconsciously desires in a partner.

I think lots of other people share your feelings about Jon and Val, however, I don't think Jon actually realizes he stole (married) her... yet. I dunno, maybe he does and that is why he protests so much when Stannis tries to pair her with other suitors???

Through the course of the story so far, we learn that the "new" way, the way of the Seven pointed star and the septons, measters, etc shows us that removing the magic from the world is possible causing the chaos we see. Or at least adding a considerable amount to it. The real knowledge comes from the old gods, the woods and warrior witches, the Children of the Forest, etc.

George is very good at giving us the information we need, we just have to find it and translate it properly

12 hours ago, Drekinn said:

Huh, didn't even think of the wildling queen in the tower... But you're right. A lot of his traits are very similar with Rhaegar. He's also wild at times, like Lyanna was described. Talking back to authority figures would be one.

Re-reads are good stuff in my book.

I know Lyanna was described as wild, but I don't remember an actual talking back time. I am sure it is just me because my brain can be like Swiss cheese sometimes! There is definitely the horse riding link to Jon and his mother

@Julia H. Thanks again for contributing earlier.

[Julia H.]

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

@Julia H. Thanks again for contributing earlier.

You're welcome.  It was my pleasure. 

Great OP! I especially love the Summerhall - Winterfell parallel. 

[The Fattest Leech]

I have been meaning to add this one for a while, but time, time, time... see what's become of me

Jon and Rhaegar even "die" the same way. *Note* This comaprison is a tad more speculative because when Dany sees Rhaegar, it is during a vision at the HotU. It has been confirmed in the ASOIAF app that the name Rhaegar murmured was, you guessed it, Lyanna.

• A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

 

The last word Jon whispers is, "Ghost". Curiously, Jon then also fell face-first into the snow... kinda exactly like Bran does when he wargs into Summer or Hodor. I do think there is a chance that Jon is not dead-dead and he slipped into a released Ghost (Greywind refrence) and his body went limp like Bran's because this is the first time Jon consciously, purposely wargs into Ghost... which links back to history repeats itself, but with a twist ending the second time around.

Rhaegar dies, Jon does not.

Notice the similarities Jon has to Bran's situation, and yet, Bran survives because of a servant of the old gods and Summer is protecting him and he considers his warging options.

• A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

 

And for comparison to Bran:

• A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

The wights, Bran realized. Someone set the wights on fire.

Summer was snarling and snapping as he danced around the closest, a great ruin of a man wreathed in swirling flame. He shouldn't get so close, what is he doing? Then he saw himself, sprawled facedown in the snow. Summer was trying to drive the thing away from him. What will happen if it kills me? the boy wondered. Will I be Hodor for good or all? Will I go back into Summer's skin? Or will I just be dead?

[bemused]

On 7/30/2016 at 6:30 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Then he saw himself, sprawled facedown in the snow. Summer was trying to drive the thing away from him. What will happen if it kills me? the boy wondered. Will I be Hodor for good or all? Will I go back into Summer's skin? Or will I just be dead?

@The Fattest Leech ..Well, WOW!... How many times have I read past that and not noticed ??? ..I'd already concluded Jon is not dead, but this is likely to be a perfect comparison and bit of foreshadowing. ...(Mind you, I suspect Jon will be able to get back up, since we've already see him be able to fight while not in his conscious mind..which is farther than most people would be willing to project ). I fully expect to see Ghost on the scene when George takes up the action in TWoW. 

Don't have time to respond in the detail I'd like, but I like the Summerhall / Winterfell resonance, too.

(And thumbs up to Julia's post.) 

 

[purple-eyes]

On ‎7‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 8:30 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

I have been meaning to add this one for a while, but time, time, time... see what's become of me

Jon and Rhaegar even "die" the same way. *Note* This comaprison is a tad more speculative because when Dany sees Rhaegar, it is during a vision at the HotU. It has been confirmed in the ASOIAF app that the name Rhaegar murmured was, you guessed it, Lyanna.

• A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

 

The last word Jon whispers is, "Ghost". Curiously, Jon then also fell face-first into the snow... kinda exactly like Bran does when he wargs into Summer or Hodor. I do think there is a chance that Jon is not dead-dead and he slipped into a released Ghost (Greywind refrence) and his body went limp like Bran's because this is the first time Jon consciously, purposely wargs into Ghost... which links back to history repeats itself, but with a twist ending the second time around.

Rhaegar dies, Jon does not.

Notice the similarities Jon has to Bran's situation, and yet, Bran survives because of a servant of the old gods and Summer is protecting him and he considers his warging options.

• A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

 

And for comparison to Bran:

• A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

The wights, Bran realized. Someone set the wights on fire.

Summer was snarling and snapping as he danced around the closest, a great ruin of a man wreathed in swirling flame. He shouldn't get so close, what is he doing? Then he saw himself, sprawled facedown in the snow. Summer was trying to drive the thing away from him. What will happen if it kills me? the boy wondered. Will I be Hodor for good or all? Will I go back into Summer's skin? Or will I just be dead?

So lyanna is comparable and parallel to ghost?

by the way, is ghost a male or female?

 

[The Fattest Leech]

14 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

So lyanna is comparable and parallel to ghost?

by the way, is ghost a male or female?

 

I was waiting for this question. Thank you. 

First, I know you know Ghost is male, but the subtext is both called out to who they love.

If you want to relate it to a person, Jon has already identified himself as being of the old gods, and Ghost is of the old gods, and he and Ghost are one... And there is someone else he says is like Ghost, that they look like they belong together. 

Hint: Jon doesn't call out to Sansa, Arya, Meera, silver-haired Queen he hasn't met yet or even Wylla Manderly. 

[purple-eyes]

40 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I was waiting for this question. Thank you. 

First, I know you know Ghost is male, but the subtext is both called out to who they love. Jon has already identified himself as being of the old gods, and Ghost is of the old gods, and he and Ghost are one... And there is someone else he says is like Ghost, that they look like they belong together. 

Hint: Jon doesn't call out to Sansa, Arya, Meera, silver-haired Queen he hasn't met yet or even Wylla Manderly. 

i still failed to see how that is connected. 

honestly, i don't feel their deaths are parallel. 

it is such a big stretch imho.

if this can work, then jon's death and cat's death and hoster's death and robb's death or pretty much everybody else's death are parallels as well. 

although i agree he abandoned NW for Arya, is an exact an parallel to rhaegar's abandoning his family for his lover, history repeats, father's son. and both deserved deaths. 

[The Fattest Leech]

11 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

i still failed to see how that is connected. 

honestly, i don't feel their deaths are parallel. 

it is such a big stretch imho.

if this can work, then jon's death and cat's death and hoster's death and robb's death or pretty much everybody else's death are parallels as well. 

although i agree he abandoned NW for Arya, is an exact an parallel to rhaegar's abandoning his family for his lover, history repeats, father's son. and both deserved deaths. 

How do you see every death being a parallel to the other. All of the other deaths you listed are different from each other while Jon and Rhaegar's was incredibly similar. 

Jon did not abandon the NW for Arya because she is his lover. Nope. About eight weeks ago George already said he dropped that before the first book was even finished.