Jon and Rhaegar comparison- in songs, in blood, in tragedy

[Julia H.]

12 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

i still failed to see how that is connected. 

honestly, i don't feel their deaths are parallel. 

it is such a big stretch imho.

if this can work, then jon's death and cat's death and hoster's death and robb's death or pretty much everybody else's death are parallels as well. 

although i agree he abandoned NW for Arya, is an exact an parallel to rhaegar's abandoning his family for his lover, history repeats, father's son. and both deserved deaths. 

Wow, that's a harsh judgement. Besides, quite unjust. Jon didn't abandon the NW for Arya, he sent Mance to find her precisely so that he needn't abandon his post. But wanting to save your sister from certain death clearly means you deserve death.

On 2016. 07. 31. at 3:30 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

I have been meaning to add this one for a while, but time, time, time... see what's become of me

Jon and Rhaegar even "die" the same way. *Note* This comaprison is a tad more speculative because when Dany sees Rhaegar, it is during a vision at the HotU. It has been confirmed in the ASOIAF app that the name Rhaegar murmured was, you guessed it, Lyanna.

• A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

 

The last word Jon whispers is, "Ghost". Curiously, Jon then also fell face-first into the snow... kinda exactly like Bran does when he wargs into Summer or Hodor. I do think there is a chance that Jon is not dead-dead and he slipped into a released Ghost (Greywind refrence) and his body went limp like Bran's because this is the first time Jon consciously, purposely wargs into Ghost... which links back to history repeats itself, but with a twist ending the second time around.

Rhaegar dies, Jon does not.

Notice the similarities Jon has to Bran's situation, and yet, Bran survives because of a servant of the old gods and Summer is protecting him and he considers his warging options.

• A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

 

And for comparison to Bran:

• A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

The wights, Bran realized. Someone set the wights on fire.

Summer was snarling and snapping as he danced around the closest, a great ruin of a man wreathed in swirling flame. He shouldn't get so close, what is he doing? Then he saw himself, sprawled facedown in the snow. Summer was trying to drive the thing away from him. What will happen if it kills me? the boy wondered. Will I be Hodor for good or all? Will I go back into Summer's skin? Or will I just be dead?

The parallel between Jon and Bran is a wonderful catch. It seems  all three brothers - Bran, Robb and Jon - mentally reach for their wolves quite instinctively in a moment of mortal danger. For all we know, Robb may have warged into Grey Wind in the last moment, but Grey Wind was killed as well. (To be honest I wouldn't quite put it past GRRM to keep Grey Wind alive - the Freys may have sewn the head of any wolf onto Robb's body - there are plenty of wolves in the Riverlands. Only I'm not sure the story needs one more great direwolf on the loose in the Riverlands besides Nymeria; but who knows.) Bran is definitely protected by Summer and he survives. Jon may also sense that Ghost is near even if the readers are not told.

It is also interesting that they both fall "face-first into the snow". Robb, who went south ("the wrong way") and dies in a room, does not. Both Bran and Jon are associated with the North and the ice element very strongly. Jon is even called Snow, and, unlike Ramsay, he has fully embraced his "Snow" identity. In Greek mythology, there was a giant, Anteus, who remained invincible as long as he touched his mother Gaia (the earth). Falling face down into the snow and surviving may be a symbolic reference to the secret, magical resources these characters have.     

Regarding the idea that "Ghost" could be a stand-in for Val as Jon "last word", I'm not so sure about that, given that the bond between Ghost and Jon is strong enough in itself, and the parallel with Bran (or even with Robb) suggests an instinctive warging connection with their "other halves". Of course, a double meaning is always possible and "competing" interpretations can be equally valid. However, there are parallels between Val and Lyanna in that scene, apart from the above. When Rhaegar dies, Lyanna is in the Tower of Joy guarded by the Kingsguard - a very special force placed there by Rhaegar and loyal to him. Val (symbolically stolen by Jon) is in Hardin's Tower guarded by a very special guard - the giant Wun Wun, placed there by Jon Snow and having every reason to be loyal to him. For each girl there is an unwanted and unsuccessful marriage plan: Rhaegar stole Lyanna from her unwanted betrothed, Robert, while Wun Wun has just killed Ser Patrek of King's Mountain (another guy from the Stormlands), Val's royally "appointed" husband-to-be, thus fulfilling Jon's warning to Patrek about " a savage beating if he is caught by the woman’s kin, and worse than that if she herself finds him unworthy.”

The differences between Val and Lyanna are also interesting: Lyanna and Rhaegar consummated their relationship. Jon (in spite of "stealing" Val and being attracted to her) has resisted the temptation in the name of something more important. In Lyanna's story, Robert survived while Lyanna and Rhaegar died. In Val's story, Ser Patrek has already died... 

 

12 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon did not abandon the NW for Arya because she is his lover. Nope. About eight weeks ago George already said he dropped that before the first book was even finished. 

Whatever George is planning for the future of these characters, I refuse to accept the idea that Jon could feel anything romantic or sexual for Arya at this point. He has only ever seen Arya as a pre-teen child. Anything sexual in his relationship with her now would be something much, much worse than incestuous. And we know Jon is attracted to grown-up, independent women, even women slightly older than him.  

[The Fattest Leech]

@Julia H. the Stark boys definitely have strong similarities. I wonder how Rickon fairing? Besides dining on unicorns???

Clearly purple eyes was trying to claim I was making a Jon-Ghost love interest, for some odd reason. I had to expand Ghost into a person if that is what people need. But alone, as it stands now in the story, Ghost is who Jon called out for because of the bond and warg thing. Just like Robb in that situation. 

I'd be happy as all hells if Greywind turned out to be alive, but I don't think he is because, if I remember correctly, Jon senses Greywind is dead. I need to check that one out later. 

Yes. Jon sent Mance to save his sister. Inhave been thinking for a while now that the mutiny had something else behind it rather than just Marsh and Co. being pissed about the recent wildlings. 

[bemused]

8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yes. Jon sent Mance to save his sister. Inhave been thinking for a while now that the mutiny had something else behind it rather than just Marsh and Co. being pissed about the recent wildlings. 

Yes, like Bowen being afraid of being on the wrong side (Stannis).. the right side being Tywin ,at first, and now, TPTB in King's Landing. ... And like Thorne trying repeatedly to orchestrate Jon's death over the course of the series. Bowen is stupid and easily manipulated by Thorne , who doesn't care what happens to the watch. Jon isn't the only Stark he dislikes, just the one he's been able to work against. I think George has a backstory to reveal, maybe dating back to Ned not reaching KL before Tywin (in which case Thorne may not have been sent to the wall)..or, since he was fighting on the walls at KL, maybe he was in Aerys' retinue at Harrenhal, and somehow blames Lyanna as the initial source of his woes. He definitely resented Benjen.

[Golden Eyes]

On 7/30/2016 at 9:30 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

I have been meaning to add this one for a while, but time, time, time... see what's become of me

Jon and Rhaegar even "die" the same way. *Note* This comaprison is a tad more speculative because when Dany sees Rhaegar, it is during a vision at the HotU. It has been confirmed in the ASOIAF app that the name Rhaegar murmured was, you guessed it, Lyanna.

• A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

 

The last word Jon whispers is, "Ghost". Curiously, Jon then also fell face-first into the snow... kinda exactly like Bran does when he wargs into Summer or Hodor. I do think there is a chance that Jon is not dead-dead and he slipped into a released Ghost (Greywind refrence) and his body went limp like Bran's because this is the first time Jon consciously, purposely wargs into Ghost... which links back to history repeats itself, but with a twist ending the second time around.

Rhaegar dies, Jon does not.

Notice the similarities Jon has to Bran's situation, and yet, Bran survives because of a servant of the old gods and Summer is protecting him and he considers his warging options.

• A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

 

And for comparison to Bran:

• A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

The wights, Bran realized. Someone set the wights on fire.

Summer was snarling and snapping as he danced around the closest, a great ruin of a man wreathed in swirling flame. He shouldn't get so close, what is he doing? Then he saw himself, sprawled facedown in the snow. Summer was trying to drive the thing away from him. What will happen if it kills me? the boy wondered. Will I be Hodor for good or all? Will I go back into Summer's skin? Or will I just be dead?

I have been reading some stuff and I thnk this Val girl is growing on me a little. No comparison to Dany, in my opionion, but hse seems to tbe thr right girl for Jon. When I was reading some stuff again I also found this in Storm of swords. I thnk Tormund and Val will protect dead Jon.

Jon turned at the sudden sound of wings. Blue-grey feathers filled his eyes, as sharp talons buried themselves in his face. Red pain lanced through him sudden and fierce as pinions beat round his head. He saw the beak, but there was no time to get a hand up or reach for a weapon. Jon reeled backward, his foot lost the stirrup, his garron broke in panic, and then he was falling. And still the eagle clung to his face, its talons tearing at him as it flapped and shrieked and pecked. The world turned upside down in a chaos of feathers and horseflesh and blood, and then the ground came up to smash him.

The next he knew, he was on his face with the taste of mud and blood in his mouth and Ygritte kneeling over him protectively, a bone dagger in her hand. He could still hear wings, though the eagle was not in sight. Half his world was black. "My eye," he said in sudden panic, raising a hand to his face.

"It's only blood, Jon Snow. He missed the eye, just ripped your skin up some."

 

AND then I looked osme more and found this.

 

"She won't mind. Will you, girl?"

Val patted the long bone knife on her hip. "Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he's been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him."

"Har!" Tormund snorted again. "You hear that, Toregg? Stay away from this one. I have one daughter, don't need another." Shaking his head, the wildling chief ducked back inside his tent.

[dornishdame]

On 8/3/2016 at 3:52 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

I'd be happy as all hells if Greywind turned out to be alive, but I don't think he is because, if I remember correctly, Jon senses Greywind is dead. I need to check that one out later. 

Yes. Jon sent Mance to save his sister. Inhave been thinking for a while now that the mutiny had something else behind it rather than just Marsh and Co. being pissed about the recent wildlings. 

There is this quote from Jon's first chapter in Dance:

The wolf dreams had been growing stronger, and he found himself remembering them even when awake. Ghost knows that Grey Wind is dead. Robb had died at the Twins, betrayed by men he'd believed his friends, and his wolf had perished with him. Bran and Rickon had been murdered too, beheaded at the behest of Theon Greyjoy, who had once been their lord father's ward … but if dreams did not lie, their direwolves had escaped. At Queenscrown, one had come out of the darkness to save Jon's life. Summer, it had to be. His fur was grey, and Shaggydog is black. He wondered if some part of his dead brothers lived on inside their wolves. (Jon I in Dance)

I find the fact that he considers the possibility of Bran and Rickon living on through their wolves interesting, given the way in which his final Dance chapter ends.  

Regarding the mutiny: agree that there is likely to be more to it.  For all that Bowen Marsh is First Steward, he isn't a leader.  He comes across as far more likely to be taking orders regarding assassinating Jon than giving them.  

[The Fattest Leech]

On 8/5/2016 at 9:00 PM, Golden Eyes said:

I have been reading some stuff and I thnk this Val girl is growing on me a little. No comparison to Dany, in my opionion, but hse seems to tbe thr right girl for Jon. When I was reading some stuff again I also found this in Storm of swords. I thnk Tormund and Val will protect dead Jon.

Jon turned at the sudden sound of wings. Blue-grey feathers filled his eyes, as sharp talons buried themselves in his face. Red pain lanced through him sudden and fierce as pinions beat round his head. He saw the beak, but there was no time to get a hand up or reach for a weapon. Jon reeled backward, his foot lost the stirrup, his garron broke in panic, and then he was falling. And still the eagle clung to his face, its talons tearing at him as it flapped and shrieked and pecked. The world turned upside down in a chaos of feathers and horseflesh and blood, and then the ground came up to smash him.

The next he knew, he was on his face with the taste of mud and blood in his mouth and Ygritte kneeling over him protectively, a bone dagger in her hand. He could still hear wings, though the eagle was not in sight. Half his world was black. "My eye," he said in sudden panic, raising a hand to his face.

"It's only blood, Jon Snow. He missed the eye, just ripped your skin up some."

 

AND then I looked osme more and found this.

 

"She won't mind. Will you, girl?"

Val patted the long bone knife on her hip. "Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he's been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him."

"Har!" Tormund snorted again. "You hear that, Toregg? Stay away from this one. I have one daughter, don't need another." Shaking his head, the wildling chief ducked back inside his tent.

These are very good. Thanks.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, dornishdame said:

There is this quote from Jon's first chapter in Dance:

The wolf dreams had been growing stronger, and he found himself remembering them even when awake. Ghost knows that Grey Wind is dead. Robb had died at the Twins, betrayed by men he'd believed his friends, and his wolf had perished with him. Bran and Rickon had been murdered too, beheaded at the behest of Theon Greyjoy, who had once been their lord father's ward … but if dreams did not lie, their direwolves had escaped. At Queenscrown, one had come out of the darkness to save Jon's life. Summer, it had to be. His fur was grey, and Shaggydog is black. He wondered if some part of his dead brothers lived on inside their wolves. (Jon I in Dance)

I find the fact that he considers the possibility of Bran and Rickon living on through their wolves interesting, given the way in which his final Dance chapter ends.  

Regarding the mutiny: agree that there is likely to be more to it.  For all that Bowen Marsh is First Steward, he isn't a leader.  He comes across as far more likely to be taking orders regarding assassinating Jon than giving them.  

Exactly. Jon is doing a bit of learning on his own by the end of Dance. He is atleast becoming acute enough to certain situations that he is atleast wondering if they worth consideration. Jon Snow is learning something, as Ygritte tells him earlier in the series. So Jon is thinking about living inside wolves, Varamyr shows us his experience and we get this from Bran and the final questions Bran asks himself:

• A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

The wights, Bran realized. Someone set the wights on fire.

Summer was snarling and snapping as he danced around the closest, a great ruin of a man wreathed in swirling flame. He shouldn't get so close, what is he doing? Then he saw himself, sprawled facedown in the snow. Summer was trying to drive the thing away from him. What will happen if it kills me? the boy wondered. Will I be Hodor for good or all? Will I go back into Summer's skin? Or will I just be dead?

 

*Regarding the mutiny, we have already seen Thorne and Slynt gripe on Jon about supposed plotting against the NW. It seems to me that Thorne and Slynt's accusations were in part due to them being guilty of it themselves.

• A Storm of Swords - Jon IX

  "I don't know what your skull is stuffed with. My lord."
  "Lord Snow is nothing if not arrogant," said Ser Alliser. "He murdered Qhorin just as his fellow turncloaks did Lord Mormont. It would not surprise me to learn that it was all part of the same fell plot. Benjen Stark may well have a hand in all this as well. For all we know, he is sitting in Mance Rayder's tent even now. You know these Starks, my lord."
  "I do," said Janos Slynt. "I know them too well."

And then later Jon has this happen, this time with Slynt, Thorne and Yarwyck. I only wish Jon was more of a eaves dropper and stayed around to listen in longer. Missed opportunity Jon! (joking) But I am sure if he did then the books would be a lot different by now?

• A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

  "When has Stannis Baratheon ever had much good to say of anyone?" Ser Alliser's flinty voice was unmistakable. "If we let Stannis choose our Lord Commander, we become his bannermen in all but name. Tywin Lannister is not like to forget that, and you know it will be Lord Tywin who wins in the end. He's already beaten Stannis once, on the Blackwater."

  "Lord Tywin favors Slynt," said Bowen Marsh, in a fretful, anxious voice. "I can show you his letter, Othell. 'Our faithful friend and servant,' he called him."

Jon Snow sat up suddenly, and the three men froze at the sound of the slosh. "My lords," he said with cold courtesy.

"What are you doing here, bastard?" Thorne asked.

"Bathing. But don't let me spoil your plotting." Jon climbed from the water, dried, dressed, and left them to conspire.

 

But it does all sound very strange either way, almost as if some spell had been cast on them.

• A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

  "For the Watch." Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.
  Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

• A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

  "Ghost." Melisandre made the word a song.

  The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers.

  Jon let out a white breath. "He is not always so …"

   

  "… warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow." Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others. Jon had seen Ghost's eyes blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right. "Ghost," he called. "To me."

  The direwolf looked at him as if he were a stranger.

[dornishdame]

14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Exactly. Jon is doing a bit of learning on his own by the end of Dance. He is atleast becoming acute enough to certain situations that he is atleast wondering if they worth consideration. Jon Snow is learning something, as Ygritte tells him earlier in the series. So Jon is thinking about living inside wolves, Varamyr shows us his experience and we get this from Bran and the final questions Bran asks himself:

• A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

The wights, Bran realized. Someone set the wights on fire.

Summer was snarling and snapping as he danced around the closest, a great ruin of a man wreathed in swirling flame. He shouldn't get so close, what is he doing? Then he saw himself, sprawled facedown in the snow. Summer was trying to drive the thing away from him. What will happen if it kills me? the boy wondered. Will I be Hodor for good or all? Will I go back into Summer's skin? Or will I just be dead?

 

And Jon isn't just learning about warging; throughout Dance it is clear that he wants to understand more of the Free Folk and their history and culture (continuing the education he begun with Ygritte) and to get more information on the Others. Truly, he seems to be a fast learner - a quality he picked up from Rhaegar, though we also see that he learned well the lessons that his surrogate father, Ned, gave him.  What frustrates him is the inability of others to see the worth of that learning, and their insistence in remaining stuck in their ways. 

Iron Emmett grimaced. "Men are men, vows are words, and words are wind. You should put guards around the women."

"And who will guard the guards?" You know nothing, Jon Snow. He had learned, though, and Ygritte had been his teacher. If he could not hold to his own vows, how could he expect more of his brothers? But there were dangers in trifling with wildling women. A man can own a woman, and a man can own a knife, Ygritte had told him once, but no man can own both. Bowen Marsh had not been all wrong. Hardin's Tower was tinder waiting for a spark.  (Jon VII in Dance)

Truth be told, he would have been loath to part with Wun Wun. You know nothing, Jon Snow, Ygritte might say, but Jon spoke with the giant whenever he could, through Leathers or one of the free folk they had brought back from the grove, and was learning much and more about his people and their history. He only wished that Sam were here to write the stories down. (Jon VIII in Dance)

Septon Cellador paled. "Seven save us." Wine dribbled down his chin in a red line. "Lord Commander, wights are monstrous, unnatural creatures. Abominations before the eyes of the gods. You … you cannot mean to try to talk with them?"

"Can they talk?" asked Jon Snow. "I think not, but I cannot claim to know. Monsters they may be, but they were men before they died. How much remains? The one I slew was intent on killing Lord Commander Mormont. Plainly it remembered who he was and where to find him." Maester Aemon would have grasped his purpose, Jon did not doubt; Sam Tarly would have been terrified, but he would have understood as well. "My lord father used to tell me that a man must know his enemies. We understand little of the wights and less about the Others. We need to learn."

That answer did not please them. Septon Cellador fingered the crystal that hung about his neck and said, "I think this most unwise, Lord Snow. I shall pray to the Crone to lift her shining lamp and lead you down the path of wisdom." (Jon VIII in Dance)

The last of these three examples really shows the hostility at Castle Black to what Jon is trying to do.  While the contents of the Pink Letter and Jon's insistence that he will ride for Winterfell (asking for wildlings to join him) are ultimately the Casus Belli that the mutineers use, there has been opposition throughout Dance to Jon and his policies regarding the wildlings - something that erodes the goodwill of the men who voted for him, and hardens the attitudes of those who did not.  And there are more examples of Jon internally bemoaning the lack of understanding of the Free Folk.

"Gerrick is the true and rightful king of the wildlings," the queen said, "descended in an unbroken male line from their great king Raymun Redbeard, whereas the usurper Mance Rayder was born of some common woman and fathered by one of your black brothers."

No, Jon might have said, Gerrick is descended from a younger brother of Raymun Redbeard. To the free folk that counted about as much as being descended from Raymun Redbeard's horse. They know nothing, Ygritte. And worse, they will not learn. (Jon XIII in Dance)

And it is this inability - or rather, unwillingness - to learn that frustrates Jon most. 

The corpses. Jon had almost forgotten them. He had hoped to learn something from the bodies they'd brought back from the weirwood grove, but the dead men had stubbornly remained dead. "We need to dig those cells out." (Jon XIII in Dance)

Again, this goes back to Jon's desire to understand the Others and therefore the nature of their true enemy.  Although he doesn't realize it, and perhaps wouldn't necessarily categorize it in such a manner, Jon actually enjoys learning.  He finds the ways of the Free Folk a little alien in Clash and Storm, but by Dance he is firmly in a position where he wants to understand more about them, their culture and their history.  He tries to speak to Wun Wun as often as he can, and regrets that Sam is not there to record the tales that he hears from the Free Folk - something that sounds suspiciously like a bookish Rhaegar.  And then there are the Others.  Jon wants to study them in as much detail as possible.  Yes, he notes that Ned always said that a man must know his enemy to defeat them, but the actual work that this entails with the Others again sounds very like study.  I know there was discussion above about Jon's education at Winterfell.  Perhaps he did not like the classroom-style environment that Maester Luwin provided, but it is clear that he has a curious mind and is keen and quick to learn.  

15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

*Regarding the mutiny, we have already seen Thorne and Slynt gripe on Jon about supposed plotting against the NW. It seems to me that Thorne and Slynt's accusations were in part due to them being guilty of it themselves.

• A Storm of Swords - Jon IX

  "I don't know what your skull is stuffed with. My lord."
  "Lord Snow is nothing if not arrogant," said Ser Alliser. "He murdered Qhorin just as his fellow turncloaks did Lord Mormont. It would not surprise me to learn that it was all part of the same fell plot. Benjen Stark may well have a hand in all this as well. For all we know, he is sitting in Mance Rayder's tent even now. You know these Starks, my lord."
  "I do," said Janos Slynt. "I know them too well."

And then later Jon has this happen, this time with Slynt, Thorne and Yarwyck. I only wish Jon was more of a eaves dropper and stayed around to listen in longer. Missed opportunity Jon! (joking) But I am sure if he did then the books would be a lot different by now?

• A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

  "When has Stannis Baratheon ever had much good to say of anyone?" Ser Alliser's flinty voice was unmistakable. "If we let Stannis choose our Lord Commander, we become his bannermen in all but name. Tywin Lannister is not like to forget that, and you know it will be Lord Tywin who wins in the end. He's already beaten Stannis once, on the Blackwater."

  "Lord Tywin favors Slynt," said Bowen Marsh, in a fretful, anxious voice. "I can show you his letter, Othell. 'Our faithful friend and servant,' he called him."

Jon Snow sat up suddenly, and the three men froze at the sound of the slosh. "My lords," he said with cold courtesy.

"What are you doing here, bastard?" Thorne asked.

"Bathing. But don't let me spoil your plotting." Jon climbed from the water, dried, dressed, and left them to conspire.

 

But it does all sound very strange either way, almost as if some spell had been cast on them

There are definitely many suspicious things occurring regarding the mutiny. I am suspicious of Thorne in particular - as I said above, Bowen Marsh is not a leader, and I do not believe he would have acted without protection.  If we go back to Tyrion's visit to the Wall, we find the only information we have on Thorne joining the Watch:

"The Watch has no shortage of stableboys," Lord Mormont grumbled. "That seems to be all they send us these days. Stableboys and sneak thieves and rapers. Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander. He fought bravely at King's Landing."

"On the wrong side," Ser Jaremy Rykker commented dryly. "I ought to know, I was there on the battlements beside him. Tywin Lannister gave us a splendid choice. Take the black, or see our heads on spikes before evenfall. No offense intended, Tyrion." (Tyrion III in Game)

Although as readers we know that there were multiple justifiable reasons for the North, Vale and Stormlands to rebel beyond Lyanna Stark's disappearance - such as Aerys's gruesome executions of the likes of Brandon and Rickard Stark, and his demand that Jon Arryn send him Ned and Robert's heads - we do not know how much those loyal to Aerys knew.  Nor do we know their motives for remaining loyal to Aerys and the Targaryen regime.  Was that loyalty retained for the future? For Rhaegar the Dragon Prince that would bring a peaceful and bountiful era to Westeros when he came to the Iron Throne?  We do not know.  I tend to think that for someone like Ser Alliser, clearly loyal to the reigning Targaryens, there would be a sentiment that if only Lyanna Stark hadn't set her cap at Rhaegar, then war would never have broken out and he wouldn't have been sent to this frozen hell.  Perhaps that - and maybe some resentment at Benjen Stark becoming First Ranger (we do not know if Thorne was up for consideration for the role - and he and Benjen must have joined the Watch within months of each other) accounts for his dislike of Starks generally.  Certainly it seems deeply embedded in him.  Starks were to blame for him being in the Watch in the first place, and here they rose high above him.  

If Thorne's hatred of Jon and the Starks in general does link back to his loyalty to the Targaryens, then it would be deeply ironic if he ever discovered (though I do not believe he will) that Jon is actually Rhaegar's son. 

[The Fattest Leech]

@dornishdame, or anyone else who may know,

Do we know what books Rhaegar read that kept his nose in the pages so much? Or what scrolls changed his mind that made him become a better swordsman?

To me, this is closely related to the way Jon is using Sam to learn more from the books because Jon knows he has to become a better warrior to fight the Others. A good example of how history repeats itself, but not exactly.

This is from the wiki (I know), but it does give a good summary and is accurate:

As a child he read obsessively, to the point that jests were made about his habits. He became a noted warrior later in life, although he did not initially seem inclined to martial habits. However, apparently by something he had read, Rhaegar became motivated to become a warrior.

• A Storm of Swords - Daenerys I

  "I would hear it from you."
  "As you wish," said Whitebeard. "As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"
  "And he was!" said Dany, delighted.

[The Fattest Leech]

Ok. This just happened again. While looking for something else, I found more Jon and Rhaegar connections to add. I already posted it to my other thread, but felt it should be added here as well because of the other half of the relationship connections. The other thread is linked below.

Basically, Baelor the Blessed, whom Rhaegar was compared to, was known to raise a smith up to High Septon. The difference in history repeating itself this time is that Jon is relating himself to the Old Gods and the Free Folk and in doing so, that smith is known to work with iron, not stone. During AFFC and ADWD, Jon takes a room at the back of the armory, surrounded by iron. He hangs his sword and gloves there, and each morning he emerges from the armory/smith shop.

• A Storm of Swords - Daenerys I

"I would hear it from you."

"As you wish," said Whitebeard. "As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"

 

We already know that there are two celestial bodies that are linked to Jon, the Thief, which was linked to him when he "stole" Ygritte and Val who is Jon's Moonmaid, and the Ice Dragon. The Thief, or the Red Wanderer, is associated with The Smith... and guess where Jon has taken up residence at Castle Black...

• A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

  Outside his bedchamber a flight of steps descended to a larger room furnished with a scarred pinewood table and a dozen oak-and-leather chairs. With Stannis in the King's Tower and the Lord Commander's Tower burned to a shell, Jon had established himself in Donal Noye's modest rooms behind the armory. In time, no doubt, he would need larger quarters, but for the moment these would serve whilst he accustomed himself to command.

• A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

  "… would be a fine thing on the Wall." Jon put aside his wine cup and drew on his black moleskin gloves. "A pity that the sword that Stannis wields is cold. I'll be curious to see how his Lightbringer behaves in battle. Thank you for the wine. Ghost, with me." Jon Snow raised the hood of his cloak and pulled at the door. The white wolf followed him back into the night.

  The armory was dark and silent. Jon nodded to the guards before making his way past the silent racks of spears to his rooms. He hung his sword belt from a peg beside the door and his cloak from another.

 

Well, Nymeria has her own little bit of the stars as well and it is described as a "milky band" (the Milkwater in the north) and the ten thousand ships (the wildlings following her).

[dornishdame]

51 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@dornishdame, or anyone else who may know,

Do we know what books Rhaegar read that kept his nose in the pages so much? Or what scrolls changed his mind that made him become a better swordsman?

To me, this is closely related to the way Jon is using Sam to learn more from the books because Jon knows he has to become a better warrior to fight the Others. A good example of how history repeats itself, but not exactly.

This is from the wiki (I know), but it does give a good summary and is accurate:

As a child he read obsessively, to the point that jests were made about his habits. He became a noted warrior later in life, although he did not initially seem inclined to martial habits. However, apparently by something he had read, Rhaegar became motivated to become a warrior.

• A Storm of Swords - Daenerys I

  "I would hear it from you."
  "As you wish," said Whitebeard. "As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"
  "And he was!" said Dany, delighted.

I don't recall it specifically being stated anywhere which scrolls Rhaegar was reading, or what he encountered therein that made him believe he must be a warrior.  That said, I have read theories that he read something related to the coming of a second Long Night and/or the prophecy regarding The Prince that was Promised.

Note that in Feast, we find a little more information on the prophecy (or, specifically, Rhaegar's information on it) from Aemon:

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger." (Samwell IV in Feast)

Also in Feast, we hear mention of a book relating to both Targaryens and prophecy:

"Nuncle." She closed the door behind her. "What reading was so urgent that you leave your guests without a host?"

"Archmaester Marwyn's Book of Lost Books." He lifted his gaze from the page to study her. "Hotho brought me a copy from Oldtown. He has a daughter he would have me wed." Lord Rodrik tapped the book with a long nail. "See here? Marwyn claims to have found three pages of Signs and Portents, visions written down by the maiden daughter of Aenar Targaryen before the Doom came to Valyria. Does Lanny know that you are here?" (The Kraken's Daughter in Feast)

Speculation - but perhaps Rhaegar read elements of Daenys's prophecies and found reference to this fabled prince? Certainly when Sam meets Marwyn in Oldtown in the final chapter of Feast, the latter contemplates the possibility that Aemon is right, and Daenerys is the one that fulfills the terms of the prophecy. 

Sam hesitated a moment, then told his tale again as Marywn, Alleras, and the other novice listened. "Maester Aemon believed that Daenerys Targaryen was the fulfillment of a prophecy . . . her, not Stannis, nor Prince Rhaegar, nor the princeling whose head was dashed against the wall."

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ." (Samwell V in Feast)

Marwyn seems to dismiss it initially, but the hesitancy at the end suggests that he is considering it.  If Rhaegar believed - as Aemon said he did - as a boy that he was this fabled prince, destined to lead Westeros through a second Long Night, then it would account for a desire in him to become a warrior; to believe that he is destined to be a warrior.  And that feeds back into the point you made about Jon wanting to become a better warrior (in this case, I think rather a smarter warrior) in order to fight the Others.  

Of course, there is no reason to believe that Daenys made any sort of prophecy regarding The Prince that was Promised (after all, the original seems to be thousands of years old and the Doom of Valyria occurred less than 500 years before the start of A Game of Thrones) but that does not preclude her setting down either a similar prophecy or one that either complemented the original or expanded upon it.  This is a little bit more guess work than anything else - really just based on Rhaegar's interest in the prophecy in his correspondence with Aemon and the reference to it in Daenerys's vision of him in the House of the Undying - and it may just be coincidence that Daenys's book is mentioned in relation to Marwyn in the same book as we receive more information on the prophecy and it's connection to Rhaegar.  Sidebar: I really, really, really want to read Signs and Portents. 

Hmmm..........I seem to have written quite a lot on a theory I am not entirely convinced of, but think is worth further consideration - I clearly have far too much time on my hands!!!

[The Fattest Leech]

9 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

~snipped~

Of course, there is no reason to believe that Daenys made any sort of prophecy regarding The Prince that was Promised (after all, the original seems to be thousands of years old and the Doom of Valyria occurred less than 500 years before the start of A Game of Thrones) but that does not preclude her setting down either a similar prophecy or one that either complemented the original or expanded upon it.  This is a little bit more guess work than anything else - really just based on Rhaegar's interest in the prophecy in his correspondence with Aemon and the reference to it in Daenerys's vision of him in the House of the Undying - and it may just be coincidence that Daenys's book is mentioned in relation to Marwyn in the same book as we receive more information on the prophecy and it's connection to Rhaegar.  Sidebar: I really, really, really want to read Signs and Portents. 

Hmmm..........I seem to have written quite a lot on a theory I am not entirely convinced of, but think is worth further consideration - I clearly have far too much time on my hands!!!

Hahaha. I totally agree about wanting to read the in-world books. I still get freaked out when Sam drops pages of Targaryen... Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons and pictures of Balerion in the watery mud.

I don't doubt that Dany may share a portion of the PtwP prophecy. Sometimes I wonder if the reason for the female/male translation issue is that it means it could be both Dany and Jon to each respective degree??? Just an idea. No real proof beyond what we already know.

Jon was smart to recognize the value in the history books. Samwell's citadel experience is high on my list for first reads when Winds comes out. Both what Sam learns and what impact Euron will have.

[dornishdame]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hahaha. I totally agree about wanting to read the in-world books. I still get freaked out when Sam drops pages of Targaryen... Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons and pictures of Balerion in the watery mud.

I don't doubt that Dany may share a portion of the PtwP prophecy. Sometimes I wonder if the reason for the female/male translation issue is that it means it could be both Dany and Jon to each respective degree??? Just an idea. No real proof beyond what we already know.

Jon was smart to recognize the value in the history books. Samwell's citadel experience is high on my list for first reads when Winds comes out. Both what Sam learns and what impact Euron will have.

Regarding the prophecy, Daenerys has already been reborn in a sense, walking out from the flames in which she woke literal dragons from stone; Jon will likely have to be reborn (or reborn into his body, more accurately, based on my Winds predictions) in which case he will be a metaphorical dragon woken from stone. 

I was wondering earlier why it was that Rhaegar was considered Baelor the Blessed reborn. That led to thoughts regarding Aerys I being more interested in arcane scrolls than Baelor was (well, unless they were related to the Faith of the Seven).  This in turn led to thoughts of Dunk and Egg, and this reference to Aerys I and his literary researches:

The fat man drank his wine and rattled on. "As for Aerys, His Grace cares more for old scrolls and dusty prophecies than for lords and laws. He will not even bestir himself to sire an heir. Queen Aelinor prays daily at the Great Sept, beseeching the Mother Above to bless her with a child, yet she remains a maid.

Aerys keeps his own apartments, and it is said that he would sooner take a book to bed than any woman." He filled his cup again. "Make no mistake, 'tis Lord Rivers who rules us, with his spells and spies. There is no one to oppose him. Prince Maekar sulks at Summerhall, nursing his grievances against his royal brother. Prince Rhaegal is as meek as he is mad, and his children are . . . well, children. Friends and favorites of Lord Rivers fill every office, the lords of the small council lick his hand, and this new Grand Maester is as steeped in sorcery as he is. The Red Keep is garrisoned by Raven's Teeth, and no man sees the king without his leave." (The Sworn Sword)

I did wonder momentarily if, perhaps, the scrolls Rhaegar read that led him to his determination that he must become a warrior were brought to the Red Keep by Aerys I or perhaps by Bloodraven, who shared his love of the arcane? And to bring this back to Rhaegar and Jon - as I am aware that I am heading drastically off topic - might that, in some way link up the scrolls to the discovery Jon and Ghost made at the Fist of the First Men? History repeating itself in a sense, but not truly? 

Jon brushed the loose soil away to reveal a rounded bundle perhaps two feet across. He jammed his fingers down around the edges and worked it loose. When he pulled it free, whatever was inside shifted and clinked. Treasure, he thought, but the shapes were wrong to be coins, and the sound was wrong for metal.

A length of frayed rope bound the bundle together. Jon unsheathed his dagger and cut it, groped for the edges of the cloth, and pulled. The bundle turned, and its contents spilled out onto the ground, glittering dark and bright. He saw a dozen knives, leaf-shaped spearheads, numerous arrowheads. Jon picked up a dagger blade, featherlight and shiny black, hiltless. Torchlight ran along its edge, a thin orange line that spoke of razor sharpness. Dragonglass. What the maesters call obsidian. Had Ghost uncovered some ancient cache of the children of the forest, buried here for thousands of years? The Fist of the First Men was an old place, only . . .

Beneath the dragonglass was an old warhorn, made from an auroch's horn and banded in bronze. Jon shook the dirt from inside it, and a stream of arrowheads fell out. He let them fall, and pulled up a corner of the cloth the weapons had been wrapped in, rubbing it between his fingers. Good wool, thick, a double weave, damp but not rotted. It could not have been long in the ground. And it was dark. He seized a handful and pulled it close to the torch. Not dark. Black.

Even before Jon stood and shook it out, he knew what he had: the black cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch. (Jon IV in Clash)

Jon quickly identifies that the cloak has been left there recently - and that it belonged to a member of the Night's Watch.  The number of people who could have left that cloak there are limited, and I won't go too much into theories regarding Benjen working with the Children of the Forest and/or Bloodraven, but the idea of Bloodraven guiding things from a distance is very much a theme in Jon's chapters (in fact, I am currently - slowly - putting together an essay of sorts on the parallels between Jon and Bloodraven and the way Bloodraven helps Jon from a distance and so to see a potential link with Rhaegar too is interesting).  Perhaps Bloodraven brings in an arcane scroll for Aerys (and for himself, though I think Aerys would be the excuse for procuring it from whomever had it before) and years later Rhaegar reads it and determines he must become a warrior; and perhaps years later Bloodraven leaves a cache of weapons to enable Rhaegar's son to become that warrior? 

Again, I have little to no proof of this and am compiling some random thoughts that many will consider to be ludicrous, but I seem to have found them interesting enough to write down. It is really more speculation and thinking out loud than anything else.  As I said above, I clearly have too much time on my hands!! 

Also regarding Jon/Rhaegar parallels generally, I do think that Rhaegar/Lyanna's first meeting had a lot of similarities with that of Jon/Ygritte.  Jon VI in Clash is the chapter in which they first meet - a chapter which is full of Bael and Blue Rose references. I won't quote the entire passage of Ygritte's story, but...............

"North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.'"

"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain." (Jon VI in Clash)

"Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign o' Bael or this maid. For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o' Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child's cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast." (Jon VI in Clash)

Ultimately, the story is one of a Stark maiden who disappears with a singer, her family calling it kidnap, and she reappears around a year later with a child - the singer's child.  Sound familiar? In any case, it is telling us to pay attention to the story of Lyanna and Rhaegar, the modern Bael and his Stark maiden. 

"That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end." (Bran II in Storm)

This is Meera's retelling of the Knight of the Laughing Tree in Storm; all we are told is that the Dragon Prince (Rhaegar) only found the Knight of the Laughing Tree's shield.  Given that Lyanna is the most likely thematic and logical candidate for the role, what we see in her crowning is Rhaegar acknowledging her skill and bravery - and he would only know to do that if he had, in fact, unmasked her as the Mystery Knight.  That takes us back to Jon, and his capture of Ygritte. Or rather, to him letting her go.

"Strike hard and true, crow, or I'll come back and haunt you."

Longclaw was not so long or heavy a sword as his father's Ice, but it was Valyrian steel all the same. He touched the edge of the blade to mark where the blow must fall, and Ygritte shivered. "That's cold," she said. "Go on, be quick about it."

He raised Longclaw over his head, both hands tight around the grip. One cut, with all my weight behind it. He could give her a quick clean death, at least. He was his father's son. Wasn't he? Wasn't he?

"Do it," she urged him after a moment. "Bastard. Do it. I can't stay brave forever." When the blow did not fall she turned her head to look at him.

Jon lowered his sword. "Go," he muttered.

Ygritte stared.

"Now," he said, "before my wits return. Go." (Jon VI in Clash)

In both cases, I think we have a man sent off by his superior to bring about justice who then pauses when they find out that it is a woman, not a man, that they have captured.  Ultimately, Rhaegar returns with only the shield of the Mystery Knight and Jon spares Ygritte by setting her free against Qhorin's orders.  Both couples part after a short encounter and are then later reunited.  The constant references to Bael and Blue Rose imagery throughout Jon VI in Clash links the two couples thematically.  Both encounters are also fateful; had Rheagar not met and unmasked Lyanna, and truly only found the shield, would he still have crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty? Would he still have run off with her? I doubt it - and then Brandon does not ride south and set in motion the course of events that leads to a declaration of war.  Similarly, would Ygritte have joined Tormund's group if Jon hadn't been there? She says to him that she's had enough of Rattleshirt, but would she have picked Tormund over all others had Jon not been there too?  And would she have gone off to climb the Wall with Jarl and ultimately been involved on the attack on Castle Black as a result? I doubt it. 

Also interesting to note that the first person Ygritte reminds Jon of is Arya - the niece said to most resemble Lyanna Stark. 

[dornishdame]

Perhaps further Rhaegar/Lyanna and Jon/Ygritte parallels - again slightly history repeating itself but not precisely - in Storm, when Jon is conflicted between the vow he swore to the Gods and his feelings for Ygritte (as perhaps Rhaegar was conflicted by the marriage vows he swore before the Seven and Lyanna).

It may be Ned that Jon thinks of, but it works pretty well for Rhaegar too:

The proving had been so sweet, though, and Ygritte had gone to sleep beside him with her head against his chest, and that was sweet as well, dangerously sweet. He thought of the weirwoods again, and the words he'd said before them. It was only once, and it had to be. Even my father stumbled once, when he forgot his marriage vows and sired a bastard. Jon vowed to himself that it would be the same with him. It will never happen again.

It happened twice more that night, and again in the morning, when she woke to find him hard. The wildlings were stirring by then, and several could not help but notice what was going on beneath the pile of furs. Jarl told them to be quick about it, before he had to throw a pail of water over them. Like a pair of rutting dogs, Jon thought afterward. Was that what he'd become? I am a man of the Night's Watch, a small voice inside insisted, but every night it seemed a little fainter, and when Ygritte kissed his ears or bit his neck, he could not hear it at all. Was this how it was for my father? he wondered. Was he as weak as I am, when he dishonored himself in my mother's bed? (Jon III in Storm)

They shared the same sleeping skins every night, and he went to sleep with her head against his chest and her red hair tickling his chin. The smell of her had become a part of him. Her crooked teeth, the feel of her breast when he cupped it in his hand, the taste of her mouth . . . they were his joy and his despair. Many a night he lay with Ygritte warm beside him, wondering if his lord father had felt this confused about his mother, whoever she had been. Ygritte set the trap and Mance Rayder pushed me into it. (Jon V in Storm)

Soon the Wall. He pictured his friends drinking mulled wine in the common hall. Hobb would be with his kettles, Donal Noye at his forge, Maester Aemon in his rooms beneath the rookery. And the Old Bear? Sam, Grenn, Dolorous Edd, Dywen with his wooden teeth . . . Jon could only pray that some had escaped the Fist.

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body . . . and the look on her face as she slit the old man's throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he'd left Jon's mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night's Watch. (Jon VI in Storm)

The third of these instances of Jon's inner conflict specifically likens the NW vow to that of marriage.  And it is not just in Jon's internal thoughts in these chapters that we see references to Jon and Rhaegar:

"Harma and the Bag of Bones don't come raiding for fish and apples. They steal swords and axes. Spices, silks, and furs. They grab every coin and ring and jeweled cup they can find, casks of wine in summer and casks of beef in winter, and they take women in any season and carry them off beyond the Wall."

"And what if they do? I'd sooner be stolen by a strong man than be given t' some weakling by my father." (Jon V in Storm)

And, ultimately, whether Lyanna was complicit in her disappearance or not, in the eyes of the world Rhaegar "stole" her as Jon did Ygritte.  And as Ygritte says, it is better to be taken by a man than given to one.  

[The Fattest Leech]

@dornishdame my quoter has starting acting weird. It is typing everything backwards???

What I wanted to say was, take your time and write up your theories because I would love to read them. We seem to share a few things in common and that is refreshing when things can easily go the other way online.

Jon has tons of thoughts about his siblings and his father... which father?... and even Cat once or twice. This is deeply sad in my eyes. But also another Rhaegar connection.

I agree and it is something I have written about in other threads, the southron interpretation of the wildlings is highly skewed because of the wall and the lack of communication, including translation issues. Stealing is "wildling" for marriage. The Free Folk actaully give their woman more rights and equality than the southron people do... which is hysterically ironic. Women can be warriors, and leaders, and healers and get the last say on whether they are married or not and to who.

Because of all this, I think the southroners are using the idea that Rhaegar "stole" Lyanna is the southron sense, and in reality, Lyanna chose Rhaegar and they were married somehow... I am assuming in front of one of the many weirwoods and Bran will see this in his training and hopefully will be able to relay this back to Jon. Just ideas, though.

Oh, and I added the Lyanna/Ygritte male mix up to the OP and gave you the credit.

[The Fattest Leech]

There is something oddly connective about this quote from Jaime in AFFC.

Jaime seems to think of Rhaegar as being a king and that crows had feasted on him. I am sure this is another example of double meaning in George's words with the use of "crows feasting", meaning it is a reference to people scavenging for fallen rubies, but also a connection to what is happening at the wall at the end of ADWD.

• A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

  Jaime's phantom fingers twitched as he said, "Get Osney and Osfryd down here and clean up this mess you've made. And the next time my sweet sister commands you to kill a man, come to me first. Elsewise, stay out of my sight, ser."
  The words echoed in his head in the dimness of Baelor's Sept. Above him, all the windows had gone black, and he could see the faint light of distant stars. The sun had set for good and all. The stench of death was growing stronger, despite the scented candles. The smell reminded Jaime Lannister of the pass below the Golden Tooth, where he had won a glorious victory in the first days of the war. On the morning after the battle, the crows had feasted on victors and vanquished alike, as once they had feasted on Rhaegar Targaryen after the Trident. How much can a crown be worth, when a crow can dine upon a king?
   

[dornishdame]

On 8/8/2016 at 9:42 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

@dornishdame my quoter has starting acting weird. It is typing everything backwards???

What I wanted to say was, take your time and write up your theories because I would love to read them. We seem to share a few things in common and that is refreshing when things can easily go the other way online.

Jon has tons of thoughts about his siblings and his father... which father?... and even Cat once or twice. This is deeply sad in my eyes. But also another Rhaegar connection.

I agree and it is something I have written about in other threads, the southron interpretation of the wildlings is highly skewed because of the wall and the lack of communication, including translation issues. Stealing is "wildling" for marriage. The Free Folk actaully give their woman more rights and equality than the southron people do... which is hysterically ironic. Women can be warriors, and leaders, and healers and get the last say on whether they are married or not and to who.

Because of all this, I think the southroners are using the idea that Rhaegar "stole" Lyanna is the southron sense, and in reality, Lyanna chose Rhaegar and they were married somehow... I am assuming in front of one of the many weirwoods and Bran will see this in his training and hopefully will be able to relay this back to Jon. Just ideas, though.

Oh, and I added the Lyanna/Ygritte male mix up to the OP and gave you the credit.

Thank you!!! I have a few things I am working on at the moment (mainly Jon-related) and I will write them up properly when I get a chance to.  Regarding the misinterpretation of wildling customs, I would also add that while south of the Wall Targaryen inter-marriage was a tolerated practice for centuries, the wildlings are far less accommodating (and rightly so!):

In Storm, Jon is curious about Ygritte's first lover (admitting at the same time that she was his):

"Who was he?"

"A boy at a feast, five years past. He'd come trading with his brothers, and he had hair like mine, kissed by fire, so I thought he would be lucky. But he was weak. When he came back t' try and steal me, Longspear broke his arm and ran him off, and he never tried again, not once."

"It wasn't Longspear, then?" Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.

She punched him. "That's vile. Would you bed your sister?"

"Longspear's not your brother."

"He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters." (Jon III in Storm)

Perhaps the last part is also a reference to the nickname that Val gives Gilly's son?

"It makes him laugh. Oh, very well. He is a sweet little monster."

"Monster?"

"His milk name. I had to call him something. See that he stays safe and warm. For his mother's sake, and mine. And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires." (Jon VIII in Dance)

Also, back to the Lyanna/Rhaegar and Ygritte/Jon parallels - I did post in another thread about the similarities between Rhaegar's attraction to Lyanna and Jon's attraction to Ygritte.  I think Jon's love for Ygritte and Rhaegar's for Lyanna stem in part from the fact that Ygritte and Lyanna are unlike any woman they have ever met. While Jon compares Ygritte to Arya at times, he also repeatedly thinks of her as being 'wildling to the bone'. She is, in so many ways, unlike any girl he encountered at Winterfell. Similarly, Rhaegar was raised at Court, where women were either well-bred ladies or obedient servants. And then he meets Lyanna.......the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Elia Sand's notoriety as the 'Lady Jouster' or 'Lady Lance' shows us that it is very uncommon for a woman to be involved in such a sport.  And Rhaegar happens to meet one that has proven herself worthy of praise and admiration for her skill (after all, the three knights Lyanna defeated had to win tilts themselves to become champions for her to challenge them). 

19 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

There is something oddly connective about this quote from Jaime in AFFC.

Jaime seems to think of Rhaegar as being a king and that crows had feasted on him. I am sure this is another example of double meaning in George's words with the use of "crows feasting", meaning it is a reference to people scavenging for fallen rubies, but also a connection to what is happening at the wall at the end of ADWD.

• A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

  Jaime's phantom fingers twitched as he said, "Get Osney and Osfryd down here and clean up this mess you've made. And the next time my sweet sister commands you to kill a man, come to me first. Elsewise, stay out of my sight, ser."
  The words echoed in his head in the dimness of Baelor's Sept. Above him, all the windows had gone black, and he could see the faint light of distant stars. The sun had set for good and all. The stench of death was growing stronger, despite the scented candles. The smell reminded Jaime Lannister of the pass below the Golden Tooth, where he had won a glorious victory in the first days of the war. On the morning after the battle, the crows had feasted on victors and vanquished alike, as once they had feasted on Rhaegar Targaryen after the Trident. How much can a crown be worth, when a crow can dine upon a king?
   

Regarding Jaime, I think there is a sense in his inner thoughts that Rhaegar's line was the true one (and that could yet come into play in the text, either with f/Aegon or with Jon).  There is the weirwood dream he has in Storm that I love reading, and which opens up so many avenues for exploration:

He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them.

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

"You don't frighten me," he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. "I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out."

"I swore an oath to keep him safe," she said to Rhaegar's shade. "I swore a holy oath."

"We all swore oaths," said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.

The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. "He was going to burn the city," Jaime said. "To leave Robert only ashes."

"He was your king," said Darry.

"You swore to keep him safe," said Whent.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. "I left my wife and children in your hands."

"I never thought he'd hurt them." Jaime's sword was burning less brightly now. "I was with the king . . ." (Jaime VI in Storm)

I haven't quoted the entire dream, only this passage that reminds me so much of Jon.  Firstly, there is the idea that the Kingsguard were armored in snow.  The word choice is interesting, given that Kingsguard protect the king, and snow is the last name Jon was given by Ned. Armored also, I think gives the idea of protection.  Secondly, Jaime describes Rhaegar as Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.  Does he mean then or now? In that any child of Rhaegar's would be the rightful heir? He may have to answer that question himself in Winds.  Thirdly, I find the three colors mentioned to be intriguing - white, red, dark (black?).  All three are very much associated with Jon; the white fur and red eyes of Ghost (who Jon repeatedly tells us is part of him) and the black cloak of the NIght's Watch.  Fourthly and finally, the lightness of Jaime's sword falters when Rhaegar reproaches Jaime about Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys.  The one thing I think that Jaime genuinely regrets in his life is his failure to protect Rhaegar's wife and children.  Again, this could have an impact later on in the story with f/Aegon and Jon.  Can he - will he try to - right that wrong by protecting someone he believes to be Rhaegar's son? 

[ravenous reader]

On 7/16/2016 at 0:05 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

"You know nothing, Jon Snow," is more than a stupid internet meme. It is to tell Jon, and the reader, to look deeper because this is a clue, there is more to it beyond just these words. I once counted that phrase eight times on one page. I was like, "I get it. STOP saying that!!!!", and it was then I realized that I, the reader, understood what was being said, but Jon didn't because he had not yet killed the boy to let the man be born.

Nice thread Leech, filled with wonderful insights about the characters!

I think Seams has previously pointed out the pun/rhyme of 'Snow' with 'Know/s.'  The phonetic inclusion of the word 'know' within his name 'Snow,' together with the eternal repetition of the tongue-twister 'John Snow knows nothing' should be sufficient clues, as you've said, from GRRM to the reader that Jon's is a quest for knowledge, specifically self-knowledge.

In light of GRRM's fondness for punning and other wordplays, I was wondering whether 'Jon Snow' might be a play on 'John Doe,' or even 'Jo Schmo'...

A 'John Doe' is a generic placeholder name given to someone whose identity is unknown, particularly to a corpse or hospital patient who has as yet been unclaimed by relatives who also therefore remain unknown.  Alternatively, 'John Doe' may also be applied in cases where revealing someone's true name might be compromising for legal or other reasons.  Importantly, this label is supposed to be a temporary measure until such time as a more comprehensive disclosure of identity is feasible, and the label can be lifted.  As you can see, both these senses of 'John Doe' might be applicable to 'Jon Snow.'  In the first case, the repetition of 'you know nothing, John Snow,' in addition to tipping off the reader to put on his or her extra-strength prescription Myrish lenses, indicates most of all that Jon Snow is unaware of his true identity, which necessarily entails ignorance (through no fault of his own) of the nature of his paternity and maternity.  Considering he ends up as either a corpse or in need of hospitalization at the end of ADWD, depending on ones particular interpretation and inclination, there is a further layer of applicability!  Figuratively speaking, as you highlighted, a corpselike 'John Doe' identity is a stage on the spiritual journey that Jon needs to pass through, to 'kill the boy so that the man can be (re)born.'  In the second case, the reader may surmise that Ned may have deliberately withheld the baby's true name and identity in order to protect him-- even severely compromising his own reputation 'his good name,' particularly in his relationship to his wife, in the process.  Sullying Jon's 'good name' by giving him a bastard name instead of his birthright, Ned also in a way sullied his own good name!  Since the 'John Doe' label is intended to be temporary, likewise we can also expect the mysteries surrounding Jon to be cleared up at some point, when the time is right.  

Regarding a potential 'Jo Schmo' reference, while this is a 'long shot,' it's worth considering that a 'Jo Schmo' is a regular 'everyman' from whom little is expected.  As 'schmo' is derived from the Yiddish for 'idiot' -- i.e. someone who knows nothing! -- there is definitely a slightly negative connotation to the moniker, implying that such an individual in addition to coming from 'nowhere' is unlikely to amount to anything much in life -- i.e. he is 'a nobody' -- and as such might even be worthy of society's disparagement, as for a 'bastard.'  Basically a Jo Schmo fails to distinguish himself; in other words, he fails to 'make a name' for himself.  Playing around with this kind of connotation would also appeal to GRRM, as the everyman-nobody from whom no-one expects anything who nevertheless ends up being the unlikely underdog hero who gives everything to everyone saving the day is basically how GRRM likes his heroes, even if he pretends he doesn't.  Initially I had intended to say that GRRM was subverting some trope, but in actual fact this is a commonplace hero archetype.  Think of Luke Skywalker-- supposed orphan 'nobody' (he also knew nothing!) grows up in dustbowl on fringes of the galaxy and ends up as the great hope and savior-- and in a surprise twist actually turns out to be royalty!

@The Fattest Leech

I too enjoyed the pick-up of the Summerhall-Winterfell parallel!  With such allusive wordplay, GRRM urges us in turn to play with the words in our own minds, without perhaps realising it, to give for example 'Summer-fall' and 'Winter-hell' with the transposition of just one letter!  

Throughout the history of literature, the dichotomy of good vs. bad fortune has been represented by the seasons, namely Summer and Winter respectively. For example, consider the opening of Shakespeare's Richard III, which GRRM has surely read, especially considering his fixation on the Wars of the Roses and how that plays out in his concept of the ASOIAF saga:

 

Quote

Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this sun of York;
And all the clouds that lour'd upon our house
In the deep bosom of the ocean buried...

...

But I, that am not shaped for sportive tricks,
Nor made to court an amorous looking-glass;
I, that am rudely stamp'd, and want love's majesty
To strut before a wanton ambling nymph;
I, that am curtail'd of this fair proportion,
Cheated of feature by dissembling nature,
Deformed, unfinish'd, sent before my time
Into this breathing world, scarce half made up,
And that so lamely and unfashionable
That dogs bark at me as I halt by them;
Why, I, in this weak piping time of peace,
Have no delight to pass away the time,
Unless to spy my shadow in the sun
And descant on mine own deformity:
And therefore, since I cannot prove a lover,
To entertain these fair well-spoken days,
I am determined to prove a villain
And hate the idle pleasures of these days.
Plots have I laid...

Shakespeare -- Richard III Act I Scene I

Likewise, Tyrion the analogous misshapen conniver in GRRM's saga says something similar, musing on the seasons (and his failure as a lover/husband):

Quote

ASOS - Tyrion

The way she [Sansa] looked at him, her stiffness when she climbed into their bed . . . when he was with her, never for an instant could he forget who he was, or what he was. No more than she did. She still went nightly to the godswood to pray, and Tyrion wondered if she were praying for his death. She had lost her home, her place in the world, and everyone she had ever loved or trusted. Winter is coming, warned the Stark words, and truly it had come for them with a vengeance. But it is high summer for House Lannister. So why am I so bloody cold?

So the particular 'season' in which a House finds itself represents that House's corresponding fortune.  Here Tyrion reflects that it is 'high summer for House Lannister' in contrast to the Winter -- one might say a 'winter hell'-- that has befallen House Stark.  Despite his House's rise, however, he's a pariah in his own family and rejected by his new wife to boot, so he's feeling a bit 'left out in the cold'! 

Before the Lannister rise to power via the Baratheon usurpation of the throne, similarly it had been 'high Summer' for the Targaryens once.   Thus, 'Summerhall' -- taking residence in Summer -- is a metaphor for the Targaryen ascendance and consolidation of power, which met its end in a reversal of fortunes beginning with the destruction of Summerhall -- in other words the fall of Summer, i.e. 'Summerfall.'

In a similar reversal of fortune, the Starks once presiding masters over Winter in Winterfell, now find themselves in a Winterhell:

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard IV

Eddard Stark dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell.

 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion X

Penny's mouth was frozen in a rictus of a smile. Well trained for your amusement. Her father had a deal to answer for, in whatever small hell was reserved for dwarfs.

"Twelve hundred." The leviathan in yellow. A slave beside him handed him a drink. Lemon, no doubt. The way those yellow eyes were fixed upon the block made Tyrion uncomfortable.

The ruin of ones House is literally and symbolically demonstrated by the ruins of its monuments to power.  As you pointed out, Summerhall and Winterfell are both burnt out shells of what they once were, and with their destruction their names have become ironic.  As Shakespeare so eloquently showed, one man's winter can be another man's summer, and vice versa, so that Shakespeare's protagonist, like Tyrion, feels he's caught in 'summer's shadow.'

Similarly, Rhaegar is said to have been afflicted with melancholy on account of having been born 'in the shadow of Summerhall.'  Jon's presumed birthplace at the Tower of Joy is equally ironic, having been the site of much cause for sorrow, including fierce fighting and his mother's death in childbirth following on the heels of his father's demise in the war.  As Jon was born in summer, towards the end of Robert's Rebellion in the height of Robert's metaphorical summer, he like Rhaegar can be said to have been born under a summer shadow.  As befell Summerhall and Winterfell, the Tower of Joy was razed and reduced to rubble serving as a graveyard for the fallen.  

In this context, it's interesting that Rhaegar is said to have been 'haunted' by Summerhall, in the same way that Ned is haunted by the Tower of Joy (we know this from the insistent shades of the dead which visit him at crucial moments) and Jon is haunted by his Winterfell crypt dreams:

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A Game of Thrones - Jon IV

"Do you ever find anyone in your dream?" Sam asked.

Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That's when I always wake." His skin cold and clammy, shivering in the darkness of his cell. Ghost would leap up beside him, his warmth as comforting as daybreak. He would go back to sleep with his face pressed into the direwolf's shaggy white fur. "Do you dream of Horn Hill?" Jon asked.

For what -- or more importantly whom -- is Jon looking for in the ruins/crypts of Winterfell?  Although Jon is not as academic as Rhaegar or Sam (I think Jon takes after Lyanna, who I imagine probably preferred wielding a sword on the sly or riding a horse in the open to being in the library), like Rhaegar scouring the prophesies Jon's searching for answers in dreams.  Rhaegar was looking for a 'what' -- namely an indication of how to pre-empt the next 'Doom' -- which led him to a 'whom' -- 'the prince that was promised'.  If Jon follows this paradigm, then his quest is likely to have a similar objective, even if he ends up following this path and objectives unknowingly (after all, the dramatic irony dictates that he 'knows nothing'!).  Should Jon turn out to be the embodiment of the prince who was promised, then he would essentially be searching for himself!

Speculations aside, my favorite part of the passage is how Ghost leaps up on the bed to comfort him after his ghostly nightmare.  One ghost haunts him; the other heals!  The white direwolf found in the snow who spoke to him in a frozen voice clear as ice is the emblem of Winter -- but paradoxically 'his warmth is as comforting as daybreak.'  In answer to summer's shadow, Ghost is winter's sun.

Finally, the conclusion of this passage is another example of Jon's selflessness, how no matter how steeped in his own melancholy he never dwells on himself and his woes to the extent of forgetting the needs and rights of others.  This consideration of others -- a rarity in Westeros -- is evidenced at the end of recounting his harrowing dream, when most people might have become excessively self-absorbed, when he still remembers to ask Sam about his own dreams and aspirations.  I think his kindness and consideration of others, regardless of his own circumstances, is Jon's finest quality.  Of course it's also what gets him killed!

On 7/16/2016 at 0:05 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

He wants to know who is mother is most of all. Jon does think of Arya and many times it is in close proximity to thinking of his mother. Jon knows nothing, like how Lyanna-like Arya is, and this creates a curious bond between the two. Jon and Arya are the two that look alike because Arya looks like Lyanna. Jon wants to know his mother and Arya, unbeknownst to him, is just like her. Here are just two of about a dozen examples:

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

"They were as close as brothers, once." Jon wondered if Joffrey would keep his father as the King's Hand. It did not seem likely. That might mean Lord Eddard would return to Winterfell, and his sisters as well. He might even be allowed to visit them, with Lord Mormont's permission. It would be good to see Arya's grin again and to talk with his father. I will ask him about my mother, he resolved. I am a man now, it is past time he told me. Even if she was a whore, I don't care, I want to know.

A Game of Thrones - Jon III

Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

 

 

And this brings us to Jon's last thoughts, which are of the life lesson he taught to Arya in how to use a blade/kill someone, "stick them with the pointy end", and then he says, "Ghost".

I love the poignancy of this irony best of all.  He doesn't know anything about his mother, yet he is the one who knows and understands Arya best, not least by giving her the gift of Needle, allowing her to be and become who she is and was always meant to be.  Ned says of Lyanna:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Arya II

"Needle wouldn't break," Arya said defiantly, but her voice betrayed her words.

"It has a name, does it?" Her father sighed. "Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."

Unlike Lyanna who was forbidden from carrying a sword openly, Arya is allowed and encouraged by Jon (seconded by Ned) to follow her heart.  In this series, giving someone a sword, and receiving one, can equally be an act of love (e.g. Jaime to Brienne; the Nissa tale) as one of death. Let's trace the history of swords and hearts:  First Rickard forbids Lyanna from carrying a sword.  Then Lyanna carries one anyway (because she's like Arya and won't take no for an answer!), except she has to do this undercover.  Then, while sticking someone who'd deserved it with the pointy end in her guise of 'knight of the laughing tree,' her strength of character and swords(wo)manship is recognised by Rhaegar, which must have meant the world to her considering this was frowned upon in her own family.  Then, many years later, in a similar gesture, Lyanna's son Jon gifts a sword to Lyanna's 'reincarnation' Arya, thus indirectly acknowledging his mother's identity in a way neither her brothers nor her father was prepared to do in their time-- essentially, Jon's gesture of love and validation is reminiscent of that of his father Rhaegar to his own mother.   Then as Jon lies dying in the snow, he invokes the triple wolfblooded presences of Lyanna and Arya (thinking of 'the pointy end'), and Ghost.

Jon needs to discover he's Targaryen, in order to know he's a Stark.

4 hours ago, dornishdame said:

I haven't quoted the entire dream, only this passage that reminds me so much of Jon.  Firstly, there is the idea that the Kingsguard were armored in snow.  The word choice is interesting, given that Kingsguard protect the king, and snow is the last name Jon was given by Ned. Armored also, I think gives the idea of protection.  Secondly, Jaime describes Rhaegar as Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.  Does he mean then or now? In that any child of Rhaegar's would be the rightful heir? He may have to answer that question himself in Winds.  Thirdly, I find the three colors mentioned to be intriguing - white, red, dark (black?).  All three are very much associated with Jon; the white fur and red eyes of Ghost (who Jon repeatedly tells us is part of him) and the black cloak of the NIght's Watch.  Fourthly and finally, the lightness of Jaime's sword falters when Rhaegar reproaches Jaime about Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys.  The one thing I think that Jaime genuinely regrets in his life is his failure to protect Rhaegar's wife and children.  Again, this could have an impact later on in the story with f/Aegon and Jon.  Can he - will he try to - right that wrong by protecting someone he believes to be Rhaegar's son? 

Beautiful interpretation!  Perhaps the colors you mentioned also have a certain significance with reference to Jaime's life trajectory.  For example, first he wears the white cloak of the Kingsguard, then the red of House Lannister, and finally the black armor of House Targaryen in which Rhaegar is always depicted riding to battle.  Jaime's transition -- the evolution of his allegiances -- has been foreshadowed via this color-coding:

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn X

She nodded as the woods grew still around them. In the quiet she could hear them, far off yet moving closer; the tread of many horses, the rattle of swords and spears and armor, the murmur of human voices, with here a laugh, and there a curse.

Eons seemed to come and go. The sounds grew louder. She heard more laughter, a shouted command, splashing as they crossed and recrossed the little stream. A horse snorted. A man swore. And then at last she saw him … only for an instant, framed between the branches of the trees as she looked down at the valley floor, yet she knew it was him. Even at a distance, Ser Jaime Lannister was unmistakable. The moonlight had silvered his armor and the gold of his hair, and turned his crimson cloak to black. He was not wearing a helm.

He was there and he was gone again, his silvery armor obscured by the trees once more. Others came behind him, long columns of them, knights and sworn swords and freeriders, three quarters of the Lannister horse.

Your observation that Jaime's sword light falters at the naming of Rhaegar's children is so intriguing.  Perhaps it may shed light on Cersei's equivocal statement in the same dream:

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime VI

The steel links parted like silk. "A sword," Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all. She buckled it around her thick waist. The light was so dim that Jaime could scarcely see her, though they stood a scant few feet apart. In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought. In this light she could almost be a knight. Brienne's sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more.

"The flames will burn so long as you live," he heard Cersei call. "When they die, so must you."

"Sister!" he shouted. "Stay with me. Stay!" There was no reply but the soft sound of retreating footsteps.

If 'the burning flames' represent Rhaegar's children (and burning flames is an apt image for the children of dragons!), Jaime will not outlive Jon.  Perhaps he'll even die giving his life for him.

[bemused]

5 hours ago, dornishdame said:

 Thirdly, I find the three colors mentioned to be intriguing - white, red, dark (black?).  All three are very much associated with Jon; the white fur and red eyes of Ghost (who Jon repeatedly tells us is part of him) and the black cloak of the NIght's Watch.

I can see this, but I've always associated white, red and dark with Bloodraven, who is to my mind, influencing the dream. His presence is also shown by "ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders"  and Rhaegar "crowned in mist and grief " 

From the wiki Bloodraven entry (because I don't have time to search the exact quote)..   He typically wore the colors of "blood and smoke", with smoke being a dark grey that was mottled and streaked with black. Because his skin was sensitive to light, he usually went about cloaked and hooded. ... Black is dark but dark isn't always black. Cloaked and hooded figures prodded Jaime deeper into the dream.

And of course, George often rolls multiple meanings into his clues. .. So I love the "armoured in snow" connection to Jon.. and also purely as a connection to winter, which works in more than one way, probably coming back around to Jon via his "Kings of Winter" heritage.. These men who were heroes to Jaime are now armoured in something Jamie equates with the north and Ned Stark.. who he remembers as being so coldly judgemental of him .. He thinks, in fact, it's Ned approaching, at first. Now he feels the same judgement from his heroes.. and they reinforce his own deep misgivings about the problematic nature of oaths, and his own failure to protect the innocent.

I love the wealth of meaning in his thought after he's awakened..  The moonlight glimmered pale upon the stump where Jaime had rested his head. The moss covered it so thickly he had not noticed before, but now he saw that the wood was white. It made him think of Winterfell, and Ned Stark’s heart tree. It was not him, he thought. It was never him. But the stump was dead and so was Stark and so were all the others, Prince Rhaegar and Ser Arthur and the children. And Aerys. Aerys is most dead of all.

... and that... his head was pounding where he’d pillowed it against the stump... (something had been pounded into his head ?)

It was not Ned's, never Ned's, judgement that was so cutting. That only reflects his own inner judgement of himself.. And it can simultaneously refer to the fact that Ned is not Jon's father. The seed of that knowledge has been planted, and Jaime may be set to act as protector, whether he knows it or not. (It may just seem the right thing to do.)

And I think it will be Jon he will try to defend ... I have a .. theory?.. feeling?.. that the very old magical / first men bloodlines will come together to support Jon , and I can't help noticing that near the beginning of his dream, Jaime asks... “What place is this?”
“Your place.” The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who’d lived at the dawn of days.

It will be "his place" to try to defend Rhaegar's child, and the magic will be drawing him in that direction. It's also been deeply impressed that the right thing for him to do is not just to rescue Brienne from the bear, but to set her free and give her a sword (Ned's steel). This act might ultimately ensure that he lives to answer the call .. that his flame, which goes out in his dream, will be rekindled.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Nice thread Leech, filled with wonderful insights about the characters!

Wow! Thank you for the great response. I happened to be reading your most recent post in the Bran growing powers thread when you popped up with a message to me! Just a quick note, I am going to pick out just a few things to comment on, but your entire post is wonderfully written. And you gave great canon examples... which wins me over every time!

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I think Seams has previously pointed out the pun/rhyme of 'Snow' with 'Know/s.'  The phonetic inclusion of the word 'know' within his name 'Snow,' together with the eternal repetition of the tongue-twister 'John Snow knows nothing' should be sufficient clues, as you've said, from GRRM to the reader that Jon's is a quest for knowledge, specifically self-knowledge.

In light of GRRM's fondness for punning and other wordplays, I was wondering whether 'Jon Snow' might be a play on 'John Doe,' or even 'Jo Schmo'...

A 'John Doe' is a generic placeholder name given to someone whose identity is unknown, particularly to a corpse or hospital patient who has as yet been unclaimed by relatives who also therefore remain unknown.  Alternatively, 'John Doe' may also be applied in cases where revealing someone's true name might be compromising for legal or other reasons.  Importantly, this label is supposed to be a temporary measure until such time as a more comprehensive disclosure of identity is feasible, and the label can be lifted.  As you can see, both these senses of 'John Doe' might be applicable to 'Jon Snow.'  In the first case, the repetition of 'you know nothing, John Snow,' in addition to tipping off the reader to put on his or her extra-strength prescription Myrish lenses, indicates most of all that Jon Snow is unaware of his true identity, which necessarily entails ignorance (through no fault of his own) of the nature of his paternity and maternity.  Considering he ends up as either a corpse or in need of hospitalization at the end of ADWD, depending on ones particular interpretation and inclination, there is a further layer of applicability!  Figuratively speaking, as you highlighted, a corpselike 'John Doe' identity is a stage on the spiritual journey that Jon needs to pass through, to 'kill the boy so that the man can be (re)born.'  In the second case, the reader may surmise that Ned may have deliberately withheld the baby's true name and identity in order to protect him-- even severely compromising his own reputation 'his good name,' particularly in his relationship to his wife, in the process.  Sullying Jon's 'good name' by giving him a bastard name instead of his birthright, Ned also in a way sullied his own good name!  Since the 'John Doe' label is intended to be temporary, likewise we can also expect the mysteries surrounding Jon to be cleared up at some point, when the time is right.  

I definitely agree with the name "Jon Snow" being a placeholder name. Chances are good that Lyanna gave Ned Jon's birth name, which Jon may or maynot use because he does feel very connected to Ned as his father and the Stark kids as his siblings.

Plus, we have seen cases where other people, bastards mostly, have changed or adjusted their last names from, ex; Waters to Longwaters, or even Blackfyre. Jon may see that he is a special snowflake and decide to create something that is both ice and fire related??? Or, he could keep Stark if he does end up at Winterfell because there needs to always be a Stark in Winterfell. We have to wait and read for that one.

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@The Fattest Leech

I too enjoyed the pick-up of the Summerhall-Winterfell parallel!  With such allusive wordplay, GRRM urges us in turn to play with the words in our own minds, without perhaps realising it, to give for example 'Summer-fall' and 'Winter-hell' with the transposition of just one letter!  

I love this play on words with the Summer/Winter and hall/fell. There is something else I discovered about this while working on my Nymeria thread. I swear, every time I work on something in this world, something else comes screaming at me unexpectedly. Another ice and fire relation from the World book:

• Archmaester Brude, who was born and raised in the shadow city that huddles beneath the crumbling walls of Sunspear, once famously observed that Dorne has more in common with the distant North than either does with the realms that lie between them. "One is hot and one is cold, yet these ancient kingdoms of sand and snow are set apart from the rest of Westeros by history, culture, and tradition. Both are thinly peopled, compared to the lands betwixt. Both cling stubbornly to their own laws and their own traditions. Neither was ever truly conquered by the dragons. The King in the North accepted Aegon Targaryen as his overlord peaceably, whilst Dorne resisted the might of the Targaryens valiantly for almost two hundred years, before finally submitting to the Iron Throne through marriage. Dornishmen and Northmen alike are derided as savages by the ignorant of the five 'civilized' kingdoms, and celebrated for their valor by those who have crossed swords with them."

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In this context, it's interesting that Rhaegar is said to have been 'haunted' by Summerhall, in the same way that Ned is haunted by the Tower of Joy (we know this from the insistent shades of the dead which visit him at crucial moments) and Jon is haunted by his Winterfell crypt dreams:

This is a great find and relation. I may add this to the main post. Thank you.

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Speculations aside, my favorite part of the passage is how Ghost leaps up on the bed to comfort him after his ghostly nightmare.  One ghost haunts him; the other heals!  The white direwolf found in the snow who spoke to him in a frozen voice clear as ice is the emblem of Winter -- but paradoxically 'his warmth is as comforting as daybreak.'  In answer to summer's shadow, Ghost is winter's sun.

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Finally, the conclusion of this passage is another example of Jon's selflessness, how no matter how steeped in his own melancholy he never dwells on himself and his woes to the extent of forgetting the needs and rights of others.  This consideration of others -- a rarity in Westeros -- is evidenced at the end of recounting his harrowing dream, when most people might have become excessively self-absorbed, when he still remembers to ask Sam about his own dreams and aspirations.  I think his kindness and consideration of others, regardless of his own circumstances, is Jon's finest quality.  Of course it's also what gets him killed!

Exactly! Jon is never selfish, especially after Noye gave a good what-for in the beginning. Jon learned more and did better after that incident. I think Jon's willingness to think of others comes both from his blood father and his bonded father. Jon was lucky in that aspect.

True, it is what lead to the NW mutiny, but I am tempted to start another thread () that shows that Thorne has been planning something against Jon and the Starks since back in Storm of Swords. @bemused shares this idea and has a great thread on it. I have to also admit that I do not think Jon is dead-dead and he has some worthy healers around him to help him both physically and spiritually.

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I love the poignancy of this irony best of all.  He doesn't know anything about his mother, yet he is the one who knows and understands Arya best, not least by giving her the gift of Needle, allowing her to be and become who she is and was always meant to be.  Ned says of Lyanna:

Unlike Lyanna who was forbidden from carrying a sword openly, Arya is allowed and encouraged by Jon (seconded by Ned) to follow her heart.  In this series, giving someone a sword, and receiving one, can equally be an act of love (e.g. Jaime to Brienne; the Nissa tale) as one of death. Let's trace the history of swords and hearts:  First Rickard forbids Lyanna from carrying a sword.  Then Lyanna carries one anyway (because she's like Arya and won't take no for an answer!), except she has to do this undercover.  Then, while sticking someone who'd deserved it with the pointy end in her guise of 'knight of the laughing tree,' her strength of character and swords(wo)manship is recognised by Rhaegar, which must have meant the world to her considering this was frowned upon in her own family.  Then, many years later, in a similar gesture, Lyanna's son Jon gifts a sword to Lyanna's 'reincarnation' Arya, thus indirectly acknowledging his mother's identity in a way neither her brothers nor her father was prepared to do in their time-- essentially, Jon's gesture of love and validation is reminiscent of that of his father Rhaegar to his own mother.   Then as Jon lies dying in the snow, he invokes the triple wolfblooded presences of Lyanna and Arya (thinking of 'the pointy end'), and Ghost.

Yes. Jon thinks about his Stark siblings often throughout the books. He compares himself to Robb way more often than I remembered on first read.

Jon thinks of his mother often and it is mostly in relation to Arya. This is so sad to me because he yearns to know his mother, doesn't care if his mother is a "whore", he just wants to know her. And little does he know he has a "little mother" all along.

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Jon needs to discover he's Targaryen, in order to know he's a Stark.

Yes, yes, yes! I have a feeling he will be conflicted and confused at first, but then he will see the honor in Ned and Lyanna's decision and he will remember the Starks as his family. Ned had that much of an impression on him to be so.

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Beautiful interpretation!  Perhaps the colors you mentioned also have a certain significance with reference to Jaime's life trajectory.  For example, first he wears the white cloak of the Kingsguard, then the red of House Lannister, and finally the black armor of House Targaryen in which Rhaegar is always depicted riding to battle.  Jaime's transition -- the evolution of his allegiances -- has been foreshadowed via this color-coding:

Your observation that Jaime's sword light falters at the naming of Rhaegar's children is so intriguing.  Perhaps it may shed light on Cersei's equivocal statement in the same dream:

The contribution by @dornishdame was amazing. It really helped move things along. I am only now realizing how important Jaime will be to the story ending and it will be for a bigger cause, and not that horrible iron monstrosity in KL.

ADDING: Jaime being still alive and possibly working his way north, or at least into Arya in the Riverlands, is a great possible connection to Rhaegar.

Come back and join in anytime