Jon and Rhaegar comparison- in songs, in blood, in tragedy

[The Fattest Leech]

55 minutes ago, GhostNymeria said:

Oh wow, thank you!

And I did some reasearch just now to make sure the phrase was unique to Jon and Rhaegar. It's actually used once more in AFfC, when Jaime confronts the Blackfish(no pun intended).

I couldn't find any other instances when the phrase was used (I searched through Google Books). I don't know if there's supposed to be a connection between all three characters. I don't know about Rhaegar and Jaime, but Jon and Jaime on the other hand have some heavy paralleling through out the story. Maybe it's connected to that. 

I did see that when I was pulling your quotes earlier.

To me, and I could be wrong, but it seems to link to a "black heart" being a "bastard heart." I guess that is good news for people who belive the Mad King is actually Jaime and Cersei's father, not Tywin???

Also, when Jon first sees Jaime at Winterfell, Jon thinks Jaime looks like what a king should be. So maybe a hidden connection there???

[GhostNymeria]

10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I did see that when I was pulling your quotes earlier.

To me, and I could be wrong, but it seems to link to a "black heart" being a "bastard heart." I guess that is good news for people who belive the Mad King is actually Jaime and Cersei's father, not Tywin???

Also, when Jon first sees Jaime at Winterfell, Jon thinks Jaime looks like what a king should be. So maybe a hidden connection there???

I guess it could be a clue to that. I wouldn't mind if Jaime is Aerys' bastard actually.  But on the other hand, it woud mean Cersei is as well and I really don't want her to be a secret Targaryan. 

Maybe Rhaegar, Jon and Jaime are all Azor Ahai/TPTWP/The last hero, or 3 key players in the war against the others? It's a little crackpot by just basing it on a phrase, but it could make sense. Al three characters have a heavy duty vs love theme going on, and all the sacrifices that comes with that for them. It could mean they all have made or will make sacrifices by turning away from from the people they love, to fight the others.

• Jon is making his duty to fight the others and will probably continue to do so through the long night. Grrm already commited him to that when Jon said his vows: "I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men". He sacrificed his family and Ygritte for his duty to the night's watch.  
• Rhaegar hated swordplay, but thought it was his duty after reading a prophecy. Probably about the long night/the others. We don't know either if his involvment with Lyanna was based on duty/prophecy, or love. If it was for duty/prophecy, the he sacrificed his family for the war against the others.
• Jaime is on a duty-themed redemption arc, turning away from love. Maybe it will lead up to him being a key factor in the war against the others, as well. His big sacrifice will probably be Cersei. Even though he doesn't love her as much anymore, he certainly have loved her all his life.

I know it's a little more complicated than this, because Jon kind of finally chose love over duty at the end of ADWD, and we don't really know Rhaegar's motivations. But I still think it could be a possibility. 

[The Fattest Leech]

On 1/14/2017 at 7:31 AM, GhostNymeria said:

~snipped~
 

• Rhaegar hated swordplay, but thought it was his duty after reading a prophecy.

This line you brought up in particular reminded me of something else that Jon and Rhaegar have in common... someone else will always be quicker and in each case it cost a life; one literal, one symbolic- Rhaegar when Robert got him at the Trident, and Jon later at his mutiny stabbing...

• A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

"My lord," said Iron Emmett, "he threatened your life, we all heard. He said that if he had a dagger—"

"He does have a dagger. Right there on his belt." There is always someone quicker and stronger, Ser Rodrik had once told Jon and Robb. He's the man you want to face in the yard before you need to face his like upon a battlefield.

• ADWD/Jon XIII: The mutiny stabbing seems to happen pretty quickly- "… away, he meant to say. When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. "Why?"

• A Storm of Swords - Daenerys I

"Swords win battles," Ser Jorah said bluntly. "And Prince Rhaegar knew how to use one."

"He did, ser, but . . . I have seen a hundred tournaments and more wars than I would wish, and however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next. A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory."

 

[GhostNymeria]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

~snip~

Great find! 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

"Swords win battles," Ser Jorah said bluntly. "And Prince Rhaegar knew how to use one."

"He did, ser, but . . . I have seen a hundred tournaments and more wars than I would wish, and however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next. A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory."

I also like to think that by this line Martin might be referensing to his theme, that no character is unbeatable or invisible in these books.

[Scout]

I have thoroughly enjoyed this topic and am amazed at the talent and research all of you have contributed!  

Thank you!

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, Scout said:

I have thoroughly enjoyed this topic and am amazed at the talent and research all of you have contributed!  

Thank you!

Thanks! And I am sure every contributor in this thread would say the same thing. George has written an amazing series and the fandom is awesome. If you ever find anything to add, just post it here and I can update the main post.

[St Daga]

I was blessed to have just spent about two hours working on this post, to have lost it all. Poof! Gone! I could have cried, but I managed not to. I shall try again, but probably with less vigor than before.

Looking back at this post now, I am wondering how much of what is currently posted differs from your original post, not just the name. I will have to say that each reread (I'm on my third time through the books since your OP, with two prior) reveals different things to me, and the more I read, the less likely I see Rhaegar as Jon's father.  Now, RLJ might very well be the case, because I can see the possibility in the text, but I just am not as sure as so many people seem to be. I do think we see what we want to see, and I have done that over the course of multiple rereads. I have been fresh, and seen the idea of RLJ, I have read looking to prove RLJ, I have read looking to disprove RLJ, I have read look to prove Jon's parents are anybody by RLJ.

Maybe it's unfair of me to say, but I think your previous post had more facts, and less conjecture (until we get more books, many theories are based mostly on conjecture), although I very much appreciate the time and thought placed into the post. I am very guilty of conjecture in my own idea's and theorizing, and I know it's easy to do. I certainly don't mean to sound critical, but I think we all base what we want to see in the text rather than the facts in the text.

I always enjoy reading your posts, @The Fattest Leech because they are well thought out. I would like to play devil's advocate with you if I can, however. You always seem receptive to debate.

I still am very infatuated with the idea of Summerhall and Winterfell being symbolic representations in the story. Very smart! I know you use them for Rhaegar and Jon connection, and I did for a time as well. Now I see them as more Fire and Ice. I still think its a pretty great connection between two places were magic lives. We know that Winterfell is a special place, full of ice magic and power of the old gods. I think in time we will find out more of what happened at Summerhall, and what the "tragedy" actually entailed, but it seems it must have to do with fire magic. And maybe power of the old gods as well.

Songs:

On 7/16/2016 at 10:05 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Both are related to songs. Rhaegar with the music he plays and the woman that weep at his words, Jon in other, more symbolic ways.

• Littlefinger to Sansa: "A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands." Rhaegar is associated with the harp, as Jon is with Longclaw and the bow later on. I expanded on this in a PG 4 post here.
• dornishdame wrote an amazing song comparison piece on page 3 that is a must read.

• “The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle” (Bran II in A Storm of Swords)

 

Rhaegar is certainly associate with music, with singing, with the harp. That sounds more like Sansa to me than Jon.

According to Meera's story, Rhaegar's song made Lyanna cry. According to Jon Connington, Rhaegar could make an entire hall full of women cry. Rhaegar's song (maybe Jenny's song) has power, but I don't see that music connection much in Jon. Jon likes the song of swords, but that is more like Robert than Rhaegar.

On 7/16/2016 at 10:05 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Both are related to songs. Rhaegar with the music he plays and the woman that weep at his words, Jon in other, more symbolic ways.

• Littlefinger to Sansa: "A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands." Rhaegar is associated with the harp, as Jon is with Longclaw and the bow later on. I expanded on this in a PG 4 post here.
• dornishdame wrote an amazing song comparison piece on page 3 that is a must read.
• As a matter of fact, the first Jon chapter in AGOT has Jon weeping over songs: The sounds of music and song spilled through the open windows behind him. They were the last things Jon wanted to hear. He wiped away his tears on the sleeve of his shirt, furious that he had let them fall, and turned to go.

 

Jon was tearful at that point because he was drunk, he had just made an ass of himself in front of his uncle and a group of men he seemed to look up to, and is feeling sorry for himself because he isn't sitting with his family. The songs in the background didn't make him cry, nor the idea of music at all. 

Jon does appreciate when Ygritte sings to him, and he loves her for that, but he thinks she is silly to be so emotional over the "last of the giants".

Smallfolk:

On 7/16/2016 at 10:05 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

popular with the smallfolk

Was Rhaegar popular with the small folk? I think Viserys says so but his stories are hard to trust. Jon Connington thinks Rhaegar was popular with everyone but JonCon is a man blinded by love for his silver prince.

I don't know if the small folk in general give two crap's about Rhaegar, all though the ones who heard him sing or were blessed by his presence might be, but that has to be a small portion of the small folk in the realm.

On 7/16/2016 at 10:05 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

popular with most of NW and most wildlings (smallfolk)

Jon was popular enough with many watch members to be elected Lord Commander, but some of that could be because he was the better choice at the time. Certainly Jon did prove leadership to many people during the wildling attack on the wall and when the Magnor attacked from the south. Undeniable! His connection to the Stark's, who have long supported the Watch probably helped. Sam's campaigning for him as well as the raven's helped also. But the longer Jon is Lord Commander, the less popular he feels he is with his own men. Whether his perception is correct is still to be seen, since we don't know how many watch members were involved with the attack/stabbing/assassination on Jon.

I am not so certain that Val or Tormund are entirely trustworthy, although I want them to be. The wildling's take Jon's "one apple, one onion or the pledge to the watch" business because they have to, but I don't know if they love him for it. They could easily blame Jon for what seems like starving them slowly. Mance seems to have some bitterness toward Jon when he beat's the tar out of him when in the "glamoured as Rattleshirt" fight. All is not well there, I don't think. 

Rubies:

On 7/16/2016 at 10:05 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Both have a deep connection to rubies, which, in turn, is a link to blood. These posts on PG 3-4 show how. Basically, rubies are the real thing, the real blood, while garnets are imitation rubies, or bastards, like the garnet blood drop Ramsay Snow wears in his ear. This could be foreshadowing to why Jon won't end up with Longclaw in the end. Jon will go from garnets to rubies.

Rhaegar certainly has imagery linked to rubies. I can't deny that at all. Melisandre is linked directly to rubies. It's Jon's connection that I question.

On a personal note, I am a nurse, and I have seen and cleaned up a lot of blood over the years. Fresh blood, flowing blood, depending on how oxygenated it may be can be very red, very bright, much like a ruby. Blood that is clotted, dried or poorly oxygenated is dark and deep and blackish, maybe even can be described as dull, like a garnet. A garnet isn't an imitation ruby, no matter how some people market it. A garnet is a gemstone all on it's own!

On 7/16/2016 at 10:05 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Both have a deep connection to rubies, which, in turn, is a link to blood. These posts on PG 3-4 show how.

Jon is directly linked to garnets, through Longclaw and Ghost. Now, Ghost's eyes are described in many ways, including blood and fire, (which I think is more of a link to the Targaryen possibility than rubies) and also weirwood sap but never rubies, I don't think. Ghost's eyes are once described as darker than garnet's, which is certainly not ruby-like at all. The garnet's of Ramsay's cloak are very much likened to drops of blood. As as Tywin says to Tyrion, "Garnets lack the fire." I interpret this to mean that Jon lack's fire, at least in an obvious Targaryen sense. 

Dragon dreams:

On 7/16/2016 at 10:05 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Both have dragons dreams. Rhaegar literally and symbolically. Thanks to Schwarze Sonne for pointing this out on page 3.

Do we know that Rhaegar had dragon dreams? Does is say that in the text? I am asking for my knowledge because I don't recall it. Rhaegar certainly was obsessed with prophecy, but to me that is not the same thing. 

On 7/16/2016 at 10:05 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Both have dragon dreams

• A Game of Thrones - Tyrion II

  "What good is that? There are no more dragons," the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.
  "So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own."
  "You did?" the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.....Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

 

I have always been thrown by how people interpret this passage from Tyrion's POV as proof of Jon having dragon dreams. Tyrion can't read Jon's mind, so he is guessing, or trying to plant an idea in Jon's head. Just because Tyrion interpret's Jon's response as suspicion, it doesn't mean Jon is suspicious, or if he is, why he would be suspicious. There is no proof in this for Jon, only Tyrion.

I mean, Tyrion is telling Jon his own boyhood dreams of dragons. In this same passage he is also telling Jon that he has dreamed/imagined the death of family members. I think Jon's reaction is to this statement. I imagine Jon has imagined the death of family, like Catelyn who was fairly awful to him and Jon was probably likely to imagine how his life at Winterfell might have been if Cat was dead, and I could even imagine that Jon wished Robb dead, even though he loved Robb, because Robb had so much of what Jon envied. We know from Jon's own POV that he imagined Benjen dead north of the wall, and he pictures it in his head a couple times.

And if Jon did imagine dragons as a child that could be different than dreaming of them, unsolicited, as Dany's dragon dreams seem to come to her. I would imagine half of the children of Westeros might have dreamed of dragons what with the Targaryen conquest of Westeros fresh in the minds of recent history. Dragon's mean strength and power! They also mean death and destruction but ...

We know Jon has dreams but they are not like the dragon dreams we see from Dany, what with fire, skin splitting open, sprouting wings, and flying. To me that is how I think of dragon dreams. Maybe I am thrown off by the characters who categorize their own dreams as "dragon" dreams or "crypt" dreams when they are just dreams?

Ladies in towers:

On 7/16/2016 at 10:05 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

• when trying to steal Lyanna
• Rhaegar keeps his "queen" locked in a tower

Do we really know for sure that Rhaegar locked Lyanna in a tower? I know the popular theory is of Lyanna in the Tower of Joy, but is that ever confirmed in the text? Or that Lyanna is Rhaegar's "queen"?  And if she was there, we can only speculate on why she might have been there. So much yet to be revealed in future books. Like if Lyanna was ever in a tower! Maybe she wasn't. That fever dream of Neddard's is tricky!

On 7/16/2016 at 10:05 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon keeps a potential queen/wildling princess locked in a tower

Jon is for sure keeping a fair wildling "princess" locked in a tower.

I am of the belief in interpreting that Jon may have "stole" Val when he protected her in Mance's tent, although he has not claimed her in a sexual way (yet), he certainly has locked her in a tower. Now, Jon's reason's for keeping Val in Hardin's Tower are two fold 1) to protect her from the kings men, the queens men, the nights watch men, etc,  and 2) he is keeping her under lock to keep her from fleeing. I don't 100% trust Val's motives with Jon. But I like the idea of Jon keeping Val if not directly for his own, but away from other men. And Jon did put her in Hardin's tower, which was the first place Jon lived in at Castle Black, so I think of Jon as "keeping" Val in his own tower.

Now, I think we are supposed to learn a lot about the past from current events, and vice versa, so there could be quite a beautiful symmetry here, if RLJ turns out to be be true. But RLJ is still a theory, based on conjecture, speculation and weaving together lot's of hints and crafty clues. I just can't help but keep in mind that GRRM is probably far craftier than the majority of his readers, and is also the King of Misdirection! 

Brothel/Whore:

On 7/16/2016 at 10:05 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Ned thought well of Rhaegar: There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

First of all, do we know that Ned thought well of Rhaegar? Ned doesn't seem to think bad thoughts of Rhaegar (he doesn't think of him much at all) but Ned doesn't think bad thoughts of Aerys, either, and we know that Ned probably had very few kind thoughts for the man that ordered the brutal deaths of his father and brother. All we really know from this thought of Neds is in comparison of Robert, who did frequent brothels, to Ned's assumption that Rhaegar did not frequent brothels.

On 7/16/2016 at 10:05 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

We know Jon has this very Rhaegar-like quality where he paid that whore for her time but never bedded her because of honor = not fathering a bastard.

This only happened in the show, I thought. I don't think this can be used to compare Jon and Rhaegar.

First meetings:

On 7/16/2016 at 10:05 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Rhaegar's first encounters with Lyanna are based on Rhaegar thinking he is going after a male (Knight ot Laughing Tree), but instead it is a female. Thanks to Dornishdame for this bit.

A lot of theory crafting is based on the idea/hope that Lyanna is the KOTLT. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. It's speculation based on hints and guesses, but with no confirmation. While Lyanna was reported to be an excellent rider, I still think there is more to jousting that riding well. Lyanna was probably smaller in stature, like Arya, and so I struggle with the idea of her having the strength to wield a heavy lance and unhorse three trained knights just because she rides well. But maybe she did ...

If Lyanna wasn't the KOTLT, then the idea of Rhaegar finding her and thinking she was a man initially kind of falls apart.

On 7/16/2016 at 10:05 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon's first encounter with a lover is when he thinks he is going after a male wildling and it turns out to be a female, Ygritte.

Absolutely Jon thinks Ygritte is initially a man, and they later become lovers. This connection holds with Jon and Rhaegar only IF Lyanna was the KOTLT, and IF Rhaegar thought she was a man on first meeting, and IF Rhaegar and Lyanna became lovers. It's three big IF's.

Had several more thoughts, but I lost them on my first attempt at posting some of these points, things that I am not sure are connections between Rhaegar and Jon. I am certain my previous idea's were expressed much better than this, but since that work is lost, this is what I have.

Maybe the revised OP is more similar than to the first OP than I remember and my idea's and thoughts are what has changed, and my ideas have altered in the last year. I admit to seeing so many possibilities in the text, I feel like I could argue my own idea's into a hole in the ground.

Hoping to address a few of the other posts in this thread, because it is full of great discussion pieces but I am paranoid (like Mad Aerys) that I will lose my work again, and then be so angry I will want to set things on fire, that I am posting this now. Better a half formed post than burning my computer!

[The Fattest Leech]

Great feedback. Thank you. Yeah, this thread is really just a way to see what connections there are, and where, if they exist. Book text should always be used to back up a claim (I feel anyway), but there is always that grey area of different interpretation. But hey, that is what discussion is for.

I only have a few minutes before I have to run off to work, so I will just hit on a few points first, and maybe more later when I have uninterrupted time.

24 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I was blessed to have just spent about two hours working on this post, to have lost it all. Poof! Gone! I could have cried, but I managed not to. I shall try again, but probably with less vigor than before.

That sucks! I hate when that happens because the first time is gold, while the second write up feels more like tin.

24 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Looking back at this post now, I am wondering how much of what is currently posted differs from your original post, not just the name. I will have to say that each reread (I'm on my third time through the books since your OP, with two prior) reveals different things to me, and the more I read, the less likely I see Rhaegar as Jon's father.  Now, RLJ might very well be the case, because I can see the possibility in the text, but I just am not as sure as so many people seem to be. I do think we see what we want to see, and I have done that over the course of multiple rereads. I have been fresh, and seen the idea of RLJ, I have read looking to prove RLJ, I have read looking to disprove RLJ, I have read look to prove Jon's parents are anybody by RLJ.

Oh yeah, I have agreed in other threads that the idea of someone other than Rhaegar being Jon's blood father is possible, and sometimes tempting as hell based on what the books could possibly be hinting at. I don't mind questioning the status quo of popular theories. Sometimes joining the bandwagon of group think can close off other (possibly correct) options.

I guess on the same note, if I had to pick a daddy option, I admit that Big Bobby B would be at the bottom of my own list.

24 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Maybe it's unfair of me to say, but I think your previous post had more facts, and less conjecture (until we get more books, many theories are based mostly on conjecture), although I very much appreciate the time and thought placed into the post. I am very guilty of conjecture in my own idea's and theorizing, and I know it's easy to do. I certainly don't mean to sound critical, but I think we all base what we want to see in the text rather than the facts in the text.

Yup. Until we read the words, "The End," it is all speculation. All we can do in the meantime is parse out possible hints and clues. I am sure George won't answer every single question by story's end either. I think he intends to leave a few things as fan mysteries.

Thanks George

 

24 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I still am very infatuated with the idea of Summerhall and Winterfell being symbolic representations in the story. Very smart! I know you use them for Rhaegar and Jon connection, and I did for a time as well. Now I see them as more Fire and Ice. I still think its a pretty great connection between two places were magic lives. We know that Winterfell is a special place, full of ice magic and power of the old gods. I think in time we will find out more of what happened at Summerhall, and what the "tragedy" actually entailed, but it seems it must have to do with fire magic. And maybe power of the old gods as well.

There is a chance that Jon is the song of ice and fire because of this same type of idea. Rhaegar born at Summerhall (fire), and Lyanna born at Winterfell (ice), and in this line of thinking, the song would come from the song of the sword in battle, ie, the joining of through sex and the song as the result.

 

24 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Jon was tearful at that point because he was drunk, he had just made an ass of himself in front of his uncle and a group of men he seemed to look up to, and is feeling sorry for himself because he isn't sitting with his family. The songs in the background didn't make him cry, nor the idea of music at all. 

Jon does appreciate when Ygritte sings to him, and he loves her for that, but he thinks she is silly to be so emotional over the "last of the giants".

I do wonder about this because George likes to reuse his own themes, but he does change them a bit each time to suit the character. So, while the item/thing/event might be different, the theme is still there. I can see what you are saying about these differences. I am halfway there with you because I still see a possible theme, but I am also trying to be cautious as to not putting everything in the same pot and calling it done. I see other posters do this, A LOT, and it kinda drives me crazy because just it dulls the characters and makes them all the same.

24 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Smallfolk:

Was Rhaegar popular with the small folk? I think Viserys says so but his stories are hard to trust.

There were some quotes, but I will have to find them later. And yeah, I trust Viserys opinion as much as I trust a maester to teach me about magic

 

24 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Mance seems to have some bitterness toward Jon when he beat's the tar out of him when in the "glamoured as Rattleshirt" fight. All is not well there, I don't think. 

Mance also had a chance to kill, or at least stab and injure, Jon during that fight. Remember the threat that Mance/shirt made about stabbing Jon, and then someone else said that would be treason (? or whatever) and Mance/shirt should be locked up, and Jon pointed out that he could have because he did, in fact, have that extra knife. That fight seems more like a test from Mance to Jon... but this is another thread, and I think there was a recent one on just this topic.

24 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Rubies:

Rhaegar certainly has imagery linked to rubies. I can't deny that at all. Melisandre is linked directly to rubies. It's Jon's connection that I question.

Mel's rubies are curious. As you described below, old blood is dark. Mel's rubies are described as dark. Again, I am limited with time so I will have to pull quotes later. It seems to go along with what I was mentioning above, not all things are the same. Not every ruby is a ruby.

24 minutes ago, St Daga said:

On a personal note, I am a nurse, and I have seen and cleaned up a lot of blood over the years.

I know the feeling. I was in vet school for years and worked hands on for years in a hospital and farms. The smell, color, and consistency of blood is a first in diagnosis, if even just at the cursory level.

24 minutes ago, St Daga said:

 

Fresh blood, flowing blood, depending on how oxygenated it may be can be very red, very bright, much like a ruby. Blood that is clotted, dried or poorly oxygenated is dark and deep and blackish, maybe even can be described as dull, like a garnet. A garnet isn't an imitation ruby, no matter how some people market it. A garnet is a gemstone all on it's own!

Exactly. The book quotes seem to be clearly describing a difference in the two stones. Some people, Ramsay, may be using a garnet as an imitation ruby because it makes him look better, more true born. This is fantasy and George uses a lot of imagery and symbolism often, even above real world knowledge, to help tell a story. I think the term he uses is that he "sprinkles" it in (which always gives me a George in Tinkerbell costume image).

24 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Jon is directly linked to garnets, through Longclaw and Ghost. Now, Ghost's eyes are described in many ways, including blood and fire, (which I think is more of a link to the Targaryen possibility than rubies) and also weirwood sap but never rubies, I don't think. Ghost's eyes are once described as darker than garnet's, which is certainly not ruby-like at all. The garnet's of Ramsay's cloak are very much likened to drops of blood. As as Tywin says to Tyrion, "Garnets lack the fire." I interpret this to mean that Jon lack's fire, at least in an obvious Targaryen sense. 

Very well could be, and that is a really good point to keep in mind for the next book.

This ruby-garnet comparison is also one that should be watched in the next book. What I was meaning with the comparison in the thread is juts that. Keep an eye on the stones and their relation to Jon to see if there is a change and he switches stones from the "bastard" garnet, to a "true born" ruby.

 

24 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Hoping to address a few of the other posts in this thread, because it is full of great discussion pieces but I am paranoid (like Mad Aerys) that I will lose my work again, and then be so angry I will want to set things on fire, that I am posting this now. Better a half formed post than burning my computer!

Burning your computer is bad luck! It brings the grumkins out from the closet at night.

I do like the discussion. I know I have had my mind changed by reading what others have parsed out, in addition to rereads. I think it is necessary (and fun) in a fan base like this.

[The Fattest Leech]

@St DagaJust one more...

Ok, because I could not rest until I got this off of my mind, I do question if Mel uses actual rubies in her glamours. They do not act like any other rubies we have seen in-story. I think she might be using red dragonglass instead, but to other people they assume it is a ruby... or they are using the word ruby as a synonym for "red". We do know that dragonglass comes in other colors and I always wondered why and this may be it.

• "On Dragonstone, where I had my seat, there is much of this obsidian to be seen in the old tunnels beneath the mountain," the king told Sam. "Chunks of it, boulders, ledges. The great part of it was black, as I recall, but there was some green as well, some red, even purple.

Ok, now I have to get to work!

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Oh yeah, I have agreed in other threads that the idea of someone other than Rhaegar being Jon's blood father is possible, and sometimes tempting as hell based on what the books could possibly be hinting at. I don't mind questioning the status quo of popular theories. Sometimes joining the bandwagon of group think can close off other (possibly correct) options.

I guess on the same note, if I had to pick a daddy option, I admit that Big Bobby B would be at the bottom of my own list.

Well, I doubt the Robert is Jon's father but I see it's a possibility, just based on some of Jon's behaviors, though certainly not his looks, as "the seed is strong" Baretheon seed is no where to be seen in Jonno. Robert is certainly not my preference, not that I get one of those, I suppose. With my last several rereads I can't shake how much Jon is like Ned. SO MUCH!!! Of course, that might be me seeing what I want to see!

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yup. Until we read the words, "The End," it is all speculation. All we can do in the meantime is parse out possible hints and clues. I am sure George won't answer every single question by story's end either. I think he intends to leave a few things as fan mysteries.

Thanks George

I actually hope that he leaves some things open to interpretation. The debate is fun! And it makes the people involved look at the text in different ways then they would if all the answers are laid before us. 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

There is a chance that Jon is the song of ice and fire because of this same type of idea. Rhaegar born at Summerhall (fire), and Lyanna born at Winterfell (ice), and in this line of thinking, the song would come from the song of the sword in battle, ie, the joining of through sex and the song as the result.

It could be, Maybe I have lived with the idea of RLJ for too long. After my first read of the series (I didn't even know about the huge online community and boards until I made it through all the published novels) I felt it was a strong possibility. Then, I see how strongly some people felt about it, and all the minute textual details that can be isolated from the books, and how popular the idea was, and I felt a bit convinced of my deduction skills by the confirmation of other like minded fans. But then, it occurred to me, that none of us really know. And so I was open to possibilities, because there are lot's of things layered into the text. Especially since last fall, I have really tried to look at Jon and Dany's parentage in a open way, as well as a few other characters. like Aegon and Tyrion or the incest twins.  GRRM has left many trails behind in his books, but so far we don't know which one leads to the prize!

Something is ice and something is fire, and what the song is, who knows! Maybe it is the children of fire vs the children of ice? Is it a balance that will save the world of Planetos? Or must it be a union? Time will tell ... hopefully!

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

Jon was tearful at that point because he was drunk, he had just made an ass of himself in front of his uncle and a group of men he seemed to look up to, and is feeling sorry for himself because he isn't sitting with his family. The songs in the background didn't make him cry, nor the idea of music at all. 

Jon was hearing music in this case (like Lyanna) not playing (like Rhaegar).

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I do wonder about this because George likes to reuse his own themes, but he does change them a bit each time to suit the character. So, while the item/thing/event might be different, the theme is still there. I can see what you are saying about these differences.

So, if this idea of Jon being tearful as music is the case, and I am not saying it is not, then it draws a parallel to the possibility of  Lyanna as Jon's mother, rather than the possibility of Rhaegar as Jon's father! That connection I can see.

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

There were some quotes, but I will have to find them later.

I feel like those came from JonCon, who was love struck, and so I don't trust his thoughts on the paragon that he thinks Rhaegar was, and Barriston Selmy, whose opinion on Rhaegar, while is very favorable, I doubt that he really would say much bad. I mean, Barriston was perfectly happy to support Joffrey as King until Cersei kicked him to the curb, and Barriston might have even found nice things to say about Joffrey if he wanted too. He supported Robert for 15 years. Maybe there are more instances, and I would welcome some help finding them. Rhaegar is very interesting to me, because what we know of him changes from extremes, based on who's opinion or POV we are getting, and the fact that we really know very little about Rhaegar, his idea's, his goals, his whereabouts, etc. He is a huge mystery to me! Lyanna really is too. Such pivotal characters to the story and we are nearly blind to their true selves.

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And yeah, I trust Viserys opinion as much as I trust a maester to teach me about magic

Marwyn I might trust, and maybe even Qyburn, although he is creepy as hell! Viserys, nope! Haha!

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Mance also had a chance to kill, or at least stab and injure, Jon during that fight. Remember the threat that Mance/shirt made about stabbing Jon, and then someone else said that would be treason (? or whatever) and Mance/shirt should be locked up, and Jon pointed out that he could have because he did, in fact, have that extra knife. That fight seems more like a test from Mance to Jon... but this is another thread, and I think there was a recent one on just this topic.

I will have to look for that thread. Mance is interesting to me, because his goals are questionable, and his statements lead me to think that he is leaving large amounts of information out, or just flat out misleading people. He had to know very shortly after arriving in Winterfell that Arya was fake, certainly he seems to want to destabilize the Bolton's but his goal ultimately lies in the crypts, and he used Jon's love of his sister to get himself freed from Castle Black and back inside Winterfell. Third time that we know of ...

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This ruby-garnet comparison is also one that should be watched in the next book. What I was meaning with the comparison in the thread is juts that. Keep an eye on the stones and their relation to Jon to see if there is a change and he switches stones from the "bastard" garnet, to a "true born" ruby.

I see what you are saying here, I just don't view one stone as superior to another. And Jon doesn't need to be true born to be a great man. As a matter of fact, if Jon overcomes his bastard birth, he could dispel much of the way people seem to think of bastards as being inferior, evil, untrustworthy. Jon is none of those things, but he could still be illegitimate. Littlefinger is true born, I think, and he is all of those unsavory things. Ramsay is all of those things, and also illegitimate. Joffrey was a terrible shit, bastard born hiding behind a veil of legitimacy, but Joffrey is a product of Cersei's lack of discipline and guidance and became an awful person. Nothing can clear the stain from Ramsay or Littlefinger or Joffrey, as far as I am concerned. Behavior wins out over birth, and Jon is a million times the man the three of them are. 

My birthstone is a ruby, and my Mom's is a garnet, and I much prefer hers. A garnet is deeper, darker, true red, where as rubies are weak colored and almost pink (eesh), so some of my personal opinions are filtering in to this ruby vs garnet idea, I admit!

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I do like the discussion. I know I have had my mind changed by reading what others have parsed out, in addition to rereads. I think it is necessary (and fun) in a fan base like this.

Discussion is great! People see the same words, same idea's so differently, and GRRM is an amazing enough writer that things are vague and left open to questions. I love it! And am thankful for new ideas, new looks at old ideas and though provoking discussion. 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Burning your computer is bad luck! It brings the grumkins out from the closet at night.

Hahaha! Well, I don't want grumkins ... or snarks, for that matter! 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Just one more...

Ok, because I could not rest until I got this off of my mind, I do question if Mel uses actual rubies in her glamours. They do not act like any other rubies we have seen in-story. I think she might be using red dragonglass instead, but to other people they assume it is a ruby... or they are using the word ruby as a synonym for "red". We do know that dragonglass comes in other colors and I always wondered why and this may be it.

• "On Dragonstone, where I had my seat, there is much of this obsidian to be seen in the old tunnels beneath the mountain," the king told Sam. "Chunks of it, boulders, ledges. The great part of it was black, as I recall, but there was some green as well, some red, even purple.

That is a really interesting idea! Certainly there is something special about the stones that Mel wears and uses! I think that obsidian is opaque, however, where as a ruby should be translucent or semi-transparent! And honestly, Melisandre is very opaque as a character, and I do know now what she is truly about, so the idea of magic red dragon glass that is hard to see through (read) is very like the Red Woman. I will have to ponder this idea some! Thanks!

 

[The Fattest Leech]

@St Daga if you want to start a Jon-Ned comparison thread, well, I may have something to add to that parallel. I just started another reread/listen a few days ago and I just heard some interesting things pop up. 

[St Daga]

20 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

@St Daga if you want to start a Jon-Ned comparison thread, well, I may have something to add to that parallel. I just started another reread/listen a few days ago and I just heard some interesting things pop up. 

 

I love Jonno and the Neddard! That sounds very interesting, but I am not sure I have the discipline needed to start it. I tend to come to the board in fits and starts and then stay away for a bit. I will give it some thought. I would certainly love to contribute to something like that, however.

I have only ever read the books, but I have considered trying to listen, to see if I may comprehend things differently in that way. Usually audio books just make me want to sleep, though.

I am actually giving this a serious "think it over" and I might do it. Sounds fun!