GRRM talks about what it means title Ice and Fire

[RumHam]

I think part of it is that the Dothraki didn't really exist during the Long Night. Some precursor races surely did, likely the same race that eventually became the Jogos Nhai. But I'd bet all I have that the Stallion prophecy is the Dothraki version of the Prince that Was Promised/ Azhor Ahai. They just don't have the whole "long night" thing as part of their cultural memory, so you can't expect their prophecies to draw on it. 

And then sometimes I think The Stallion that Mounts the World, and Daenery's subsequent vision of her son as adult taking a city are just meant to show us that prophecies aren't written in stone and can be forestalled or even prevented altogether. After all what fun is it if we know what's going to happen? 

 

 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

On 7/17/2016 at 9:15 PM, teej6 said:

There's nothing really new or revealing in this interview. Yes, we knew Dany and her dragons represent Fire and the Others represent Ice, nothing new here. The one thing that Martin did say that might be interpreted as revealing is when he states (paraphrasing) that people in KL and by extension Westeros are so consumed by their petty struggle for power that they fail to see the threats developing in the periphery. Now an argument can be made that by using the plural, Martin is implying that Dany and her dragons are a threat to Westeros just as the Others are.

As to the argument that the conflict between Ice and Fire is the Song of Ice and Fire, I believe GRRM uses "a dance" as a metaphor for war/conflict. "A song" in my opinion is a metaphor for a union/harmony of opposites, as in Rhaegar's statement that "his is the Song of Ice and Fire." So I don't think Song implies war instead I think it implies just the opposite, that is, the bringing together of two opposing forces, in this case two opposing natural elements -- Ice and Fire -- that are equally necessary for the survival of humanity.

Martin reiterates in this interview that he does not believe in pure evil (although I fail to see how he's going to make the Others' army of mindless zombies capable of making a distinction between good and evil) and most evil acts are done by people who believe they are doing righteous acts. So I doubt we are going to have a final battle where the forces of good team up and defeat the forces of evil in the traditional sense. There most likely will be a battle for dawn but who the players are and what their motives are is still anybody's guess.   

An excellent post, especially about the "Dance" and "Song" part of it. As is typical of Martin, rather than humanizing the Others, he's going to undermine the belief that the fire/dragons are the so-called "good" side. So what seems like a simplistic, traditional fantasy conclusion of "fire" triumphing over "ice" might actually revealed to be a balance/peace treaty/destruction of both dragons and Others.

Oh, and on the subject of dragons being "good",let's wait for Euron to get control over one of them and  see what happens....

I for one will be terribly disappointed if, after all the efforts and sacrifices of Jon, Sam, Bran, Bloodraven, Reeds, the Night's Watch etc. over the last 6 books to learn various ways and methods to combat the Others, Dany comes along and gets all the glory with  deus ex machina  dragons.  

[Lord Parker]

On 7/17/2016 at 0:12 PM, Red Helm said:

I'm more irritated by the Preston Jacobs narrative that A Song of Ice and Fire is intensely anti-war because it also happens to show the cost of war.

So I'm not the only one who hated that video?!? I could not STAND his interpretations of everything! It wouldn't be so bad if he didn't act like he was all high and mighty for figuring it out. 

[Drogonthedread]

Why TSWMTW is similar to TPTWP and AAr and why this three are important than others is because these three are the prophecies unlike LH which is a tale..

TSwMTW talks about coming of  promised PRINCE ( not khal) and it comes from Asshai as well... Dothraki have stories about ghost grass covering whole world ( winter long night) ...and stallion leading them to end of the world ..

Any guesses on Who will get the control of dothraki and also will be associated with this 3 prophecies..

Same goes for other names like hyrkoon,nyferian from essos...who is the one character whose followers exist from all cultures and peoples from essos and westeros..

Who gets different names from those people ..

And there is this girl with monkey tail which is similar to a girl riding dragon

Its really simple if you see the whole picture ..

 

And if any one thinks that dany coming with dragons is deux ex machina then they are not paying attention to the story at all

[tugela]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We'll have to wait and see whether that's going to happen. I'm not sure there will be a lot of raping and pillaging in the middle of winter.

Well, we will see when WoW is released in 2023.

[tugela]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

That doesn't make any sense and contradicts all the sources we have.

 

You got that direct from the Westerosi Seismological Survey?

[tugela]

11 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Not true at all. Daenerys was Viserys's heir.

 

According to people who want her to be a suitable wife for him, since Targaryens marry their sisters. Very convenient. Even though everything suggests that Daenerys is not who people presume she is. How many clues do people need?

[tugela]

2 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

An excellent post, especially about the "Dance" and "Song" part of it. As is typical of Martin, rather than humanizing the Others, he's going to undermine the belief that the fire/dragons are the so-called "good" side. So what seems like a simplistic, traditional fantasy conclusion of "fire" triumphing over "ice" might actually revealed to be a balance/peace treaty/destruction of both dragons and Others.

Oh, and on the subject of dragons being "good",let's wait for Euron to get control over one of them and  see what happens....

I for one will be terribly disappointed if, after all the efforts and sacrifices of Jon, Sam, Bran, Bloodraven, Reeds, the Night's Watch etc. over the last 6 books to learn various ways and methods to combat the Others, Dany comes along and gets all the glory with  deus ex machina  dragons.  

Euron won't get control over a dragon, because in order to do so you would need to blow the horn, and be sufficiently fire resistant so as to not be fried in the process. Euron can blow on the horn to get control of a dragon, but he will die from his burns two minutes later, after which the dragon will be free to do as it pleases again.

[tugela]

11 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Not true at all. Daenerys was Viserys's heir.

 

Nope. The Targaryens practiced agnatic primogeniture, which means that all male heirs take precedence over any female heirs. After Viserys, Robert was next.And after him Joeffrey. Then Tommen. Daenerys was not a heir at all.

[Nictarion]

1 hour ago, tugela said:

Nope. The Targaryens practiced agnatic primogeniture, which means that all male heirs take precedence over any female heirs. After Viserys, Robert was next.And after him Joeffrey. Then Tommen. Daenerys was not a heir at all.

This again? There is no way a distant relation like a second cousin from a completely different house would come before the daughter of the previous king. And Daenerys was introduced to us as Princess of Dragonstone at the start of the story, she was absolutely Viserys' heir.

[tugela]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

I know that. But this was still accomplished by magic not a regular earthquake.

Or it means that she is the person Rhaegar was looking for all along. The promised princess.

Well, then cite them, please, and also give me those who put him on equal footing with Daenerys.

She doesn't hear a voice, she just sees Jon Snow. But those visions aren't working precisely as she wants them to. You are presupposing that the fire/R'hllor/whatever wanted to show Melisandre Jon Snow because he is Azor Ahai. But that doesn't have to be the case. Besides, I'm not denying that Jon Snow is one of the dragon heads.

Right now she with Khal Jhaqo of the Dothraki. She could return soon to Slaver's Bay - but that doesn't seem to be the case because George has already said that Dany and Tyrion's stories will only eventually intersect in TWoW, making it very unlikely that they are going to meet in the near future. You also know that lots of chapters are covering the Meereen battle already, and that there are lot of plots left dangling in that city - Hizdahr, the Harpy, Quentyn's people, Daario, the Tattered Prince, the two dragons, Victarion's fate. Afterwards the Volantene fleet and army are going to come, and with it possibly another battle.

In addition we do know that the slaves in Volantis (and possibly in all the other Free Cities) are wanting to be freed, too, so Dany will help them with that before she goes to Westeros. She most certainly will go to Volantis on her way to Westeros and take over that city, too.

All of that is going to take a lot of time, especially if Dany is actually returning to Vaes Dothrak first. Realistically it would be even surprising if Dany returned from Vaes Dothrak to Slaver's Bay in the next book considering the vast distance and all the other stories that have to be continued in the next book as well.

That is based on the rather problematic assumption that there will only be two books. There will be as many books as there are needed to conclude this series. Originally there were only supposed to be three books - but there were much more. What makes you believe that George is going to be able to conclude the series in two books if the finale is literally nowhere near in sight. Not even the prelude to the finale.

The description of the end of the arm of doom are entire consistent with an earthquake. However, lacking understanding of what an earthquake actually is, the stone age/bronze age peoples involved would have thougth it as being magical in nature. It would still be an earthquake however.

Rhaegar was looking at his child and talking to the mother when he was talking about the prince that was promised and the song of ice and fire. He only looked up at Daenerys when talking about the dragon needing three heads. Read the book.

aSoS, Jon 12; GoT Jon 4; GoT Jon 8; aCoK Jon 1; aCoK 7; probably others as well.

She does hear a voice: "The flames crackled slowly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name "Jon Snow" ". Along with a whole bunch of images related to Jon and Jon himself.

Daenerys is with the Dothraki now, but it won't take all that long to get back to Mereen. After all, it only took one or two chapters for her to cross all the way across slavers bay. There will be one chapter with her and the Dothraki, then she will return to Mereen. who said she is going to Vaes Dothrak? Everything will be in WoW, and she will be back in Westeros in the end. There is nothing to suggest that she will be looking to free all the slaves before she leaves. The only reason she is in slavers bay in the first place is to find an army and ships. Freeing slaves is a consequence of that, not a primary objective. When she has what she needs she will leave to Westeros.

AFAIK there are only two books left. Martin will not need any more since story arcs will converge as the story closes, which means that far fewer chapters will be needed. Things got bloated in books 3 and 4 because story lines were diverging, and consequently many more chapters were required.

[tugela]

12 minutes ago, Nictarion said:

This again? There is no way a distant relation like a second cousin from a completely different house would come before the daughter of the previous king. And Daenerys was introduced to us as Princess of Dragonstone at the start of the story, she was absolutely Viserys' heir.

Robert is not from a completely different house. He is the second cousin of Rhaegar. They share a common great grandfather in Aegon V. Other than Rhaegar, Aegon and Viserys, there are no other male heirs ahead of him.

Daenerys may have been introduced as Rhaella's daughter, but Jon Snow was introduced as Ned's son. Sometimes an apparent parent is not the real parent. If you are adamant that Daenerys is Rhaella's daughter, just because someone said so, then you must equally well be adamant that Jon is Ned's son, because he says so, and, unlike Rhaella, he is not dead.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 hour ago, tugela said:

According to people who want her to be a suitable wife for him, since Targaryens marry their sisters. Very convenient. Even though everything suggests that Daenerys is not who people presume she is. How many clues do people need?

Well some would be good.

[Nictarion]

15 minutes ago, tugela said:

Robert is not from a completely different house. He is the second cousin of Rhaegar. They share a common great grandfather in Aegon V. Other than Rhaegar, Aegon and Viserys, there are no other male heirs ahead of him.

Daenerys may have been introduced as Rhaella's daughter, but Jon Snow was introduced as Ned's son. Sometimes an apparent parent is not the real parent. If you are adamant that Daenerys is Rhaella's daughter, just because someone said so, then you must equally well be adamant that Jon is Ned's son, because he says so, and, unlike Rhaella, he is not dead.

Robert Baratheon isn't from a different house? Ok.

[tugela]

7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

Barristan thinks that her EYES remind him of Ashara, because Ashara had purple eyes, and Targaryens have purple eyes. Not that Dany looks like Ashara in general. Dany is said to look like her great-great-great-great-grandmother Naerys, mother of the first Daenerys who married into House Martell. But Dany does have Dayne blood through Maekar I's wife.

Then why is it Daenerys who is called "child of three?" in the books and not Jon?  She is the one being addressed in the visions. 

Usually doesn't apply here. This is a fantasy series, and the author goes out of his way to keep things vague. What takes creative thinking is deciding that what the Undying call Daenerys is actually them calling someone else that. I'm all for creative thinking, by the way, I just disagree with you on this.

Dany being younger than Jon presents a problem for you as Rhaegar doesn't have a whole lot of time between impregnating Lyanna and fighting a war to have a fling with Ashara Dayne.

The books make it abundantly clear that Meera has the looks typical of crannogs folk: short in height, brown hair, green eyes. Howland Reed is her father. So she can't be Jon's twin unless Howland is his father.

If Jon DOES have a twin it would be either Aegon or Daenerys. Either way the twin with the Targaryen looks has to be smuggled out of the country in secret to protect it from Robert. Ned's already going to Starfall to return Dawn to the Daynes, so he has the perfect opportunity to place the Targ-looking twin with a pro-Targ house that has the ability and connections to secret the baby safely anywhere else. Ashara's alleged death could easily cover up her taking Lyanna and Rhaegar's other child to Essos/Dragonstone. I could easily see her taking little Aegon to Varys and being sent to Illyrio in Pentos. That makes Aegon a fake, but a real fake, and explains Illyrio's attachment to him, having had him since he was a baby.

 

Barristan knew what Targaryen eyes looked like, he served them. He said Daenerys's eyes looked like Ashara's, not like Taegaryens (who are albinos, which may have violet or lilac eyes due to them being albino).

Daenerys is called child of three, which refers to her parentage. How exactly that would work is not clear, but mechanisms have been suggested. But clearly she is not child of two, which would have to be the case if Rhaella and Aerys were her parents. Her parentage is obviously more complicated than a simplistic interpretation of what she thinks is the case.

Daenerys is not younger than Jon. She would have been born at approximately the same time as him.

Meera was a petite slim 14 year old girl. Jon is lean too. She has brown hair. So does Jon. We don't know the color of her eyes. Jojen has green eyes. A female version of Jon is Arya (also mentioned in the books). She is described as skinny and athletic with brown hair. That is pretty close to the description of Meera as well.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Targs are not Albino. 

 

[Drogonthedread]

2 hours ago, tugela said:

The description of the end of the arm of doom are entire consistent with an earthquake. However, lacking understanding of what an earthquake actually is, the stone age/bronze age peoples involved would have thougth it as being magical in nature. It would still be an earthquake however.

Rhaegar was looking at his child and talking to the mother when he was talking about the prince that was promised and the song of ice and fire. He only looked up at Daenerys when talking about the dragon needing three heads. Read the book.

aSoS, Jon 12; GoT Jon 4; GoT Jon 8; aCoK Jon 1; aCoK 7; probably others as well.

She does hear a voice: "The flames crackled slowly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name "Jon Snow" ". Along with a whole bunch of images related to Jon and Jon himself.

Daenerys is with the Dothraki now, but it won't take all that long to get back to Mereen. After all, it only took one or two chapters for her to cross all the way across slavers bay. There will be one chapter with her and the Dothraki, then she will return to Mereen. who said she is going to Vaes Dothrak? Everything will be in WoW, and she will be back in Westeros in the end. There is nothing to suggest that she will be looking to free all the slaves before she leaves. The only reason she is in slavers bay in the first place is to find an army and ships. Freeing slaves is a consequence of that, not a primary objective. When she has what she needs she will leave to Westeros.

AFAIK there are only two books left. Martin will not need any more since story arcs will converge as the story closes, which means that far fewer chapters will be needed. Things got bloated in books 3 and 4 because story lines were diverging, and consequently many more chapters were required.

For someone who goes on to great length to explain HOTU and rhaegar ..

How can you miss the part Mel specifically thinks about jon and her sister before jon appears in her flames..

I don't even want to get into the whole dany parentage thing..

But her claim to the throne is acknowledged by Robert himself and people of westeros( read AFFC PROLOGUE) where they drink in the name of their true queen daenerys

[Drogonthedread]

1 hour ago, Nictarion said:

Robert Baratheon isn't from a different house? Ok.

Wonder what will Robert have to say about that 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

3 hours ago, tugela said:

Barristan knew what Targaryen eyes looked like, he served them. He said Daenerys's eyes looked like Ashara's, not like Taegaryens (who are albinos, which may have violet or lilac eyes due to them being albino).

Daenerys is called child of three, which refers to her parentage. How exactly that would work is not clear, but mechanisms have been suggested. But clearly she is not child of two, which would have to be the case if Rhaella and Aerys were her parents. Her parentage is obviously more complicated than a simplistic interpretation of what she thinks is the case.

Daenerys is not younger than Jon. She would have been born at approximately the same time as him.

Meera was a petite slim 14 year old girl. Jon is lean too. She has brown hair. So does Jon. We don't know the color of her eyes. Jojen has green eyes. A female version of Jon is Arya (also mentioned in the books). She is described as skinny and athletic with brown hair. That is pretty close to the description of Meera as well.

Targaryens are not albinos. Albinos have pink or red eyes. The only Albino Targaryen is Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven. What Targaryens ARE is of Valyrian ancestry. Silver, gold, and silver-gold hair and purple eyes in varying shades are Valyrian traits. The fact that the Daynes also have purple eyes and sometimes have silver hair most likely indicates a Proto-Valyrian origin.

Daenerys was cared for when young by Ser Willem Darry. There's your third parent-figure. He kept her safe the way Ned kept Jon safe, just not for as long a time.

Daenerys IS younger than Jon, per the author's statements. When asked if she was a full year younger than Jon he replied that it would be "closer to 8-9 months younger." If they turn out to be twins that statement would the closest GRRM has come to actually lying to fans, which so far he has not done. He can be evasive as all get-out, but he hasn't lied about anything.

Meera's eyes are green and her hair is a light or medium brown, and she is short even for a 14 year old girl. The text specifically says that she has the look of the crannogmen which means: short, brown hair, green eyes. The ninth chapter of ASoS (Bran's first chapter in that particular book) mentions her eyes being green. She also has the abilities of the crannogmen. Clearly one of her parents is from the crannogs. Jon's hair is a dark brown. Arya's eyes are gray, and her hair is dark--she has the typical Stark looks as does Jon. 

[El Guapo]

5 hours ago, tugela said:

Nope. The Targaryens practiced agnatic primogeniture, which means that all male heirs take precedence over any female heirs. After Viserys, Robert was next.And after him Joeffrey. Then Tommen. Daenerys was not a heir at all.

Yes. A male Targaryens would come before Dany.  Robert however, is not a male Targaryen.  He is a Baratheon whose claim comes derives from a female Targaryen.  So, no he wouldn't come before Dany at all in fact the same precedent that people use to try to deny Dany's claim invalidates Robert's claim as well.