GRRM talks about what it means title Ice and Fire

[Lady Blizzardborn]

He's said in the past that the Song of Ice and Fire is what they (population of Planetos) will call the story of all of the events of the novels in the future, and that there's more than one meaning to the series title. Yes Dany is fire, she's a Targaryen. Jon is very like half-fire and half-ice/cold because Lyanna Stark was his mother and Rhaegar was probably his father. The Others are ice, obviously. All the Stark children have the association with the north and cold, heck their words are "winter is coming" and the Long Nights, when they occur, are really bad winters. If Aegon is really who he thinks he is then he is fire as well.

There are multiple meanings.

And anyway Dany would not be "the" title character. She'd have to share that honor with the Others.

[Dorian Martell]

12 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

You realize he is saying the Others are Ice and Dany is Fire. She is not the Song of Ice AND Fire.

That is her nephew and future enemy/lover Jon Snow 

[teej6]

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@teej6

The idea that both and ice and fire are necessary for the survival of humanity in this world is also not really indicated by the text as far as I can see. Ice, cold, and winter are continuously presented as bad things. There is nothing inherently good in winter or cold. Fire isn't necessarily that great, either, of course, but in small doses it warms the body, cooks your food, sterilizes your wounds, gives you light at night, and so on. The sole positive thing ice does in the books is cooling down Pycelle's sweetened milk (and Ned doesn't even like that).

"Fire consumes, but cold preserves." Said by no less a character than Maester Aemon. I would call that a positive, wouldn't you? 

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 hours ago, teej6 said:

"Fire consumes, but cold preserves." Said by no less a character than Maester Aemon. I would call that a positive, wouldn't you? 

Sounds very similar to how Order and Chaos are described in the Recluce books. And as we know in that case, only a balance between the two can set things right. Too much of either is wrong, in the long term.

Note too that just like the Starks only endure the cold and are not part of it, so too Martin has repearedly said that Dany cannot survive fire either, and her emergence from the flames was a once off event.

So its not like she is a Fire elemental herself. She is merely associated with it, like the Starks are associated with Winter.

The Shadows in Mirri's tent already shows us that the Wolf is the opposite of the Man wreathed in Flames. Ice and Fire.

[joluoto2]

Ice and Fire will join in a duet of the elements and destroy everything in between.

[teej6]

21 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Sounds very similar to how Order and Chaos are described in the Recluce books. And as we know in that case, only a balance between the two can set things right. Too much of either is wrong, in the long term.

Note too that just like the Starks only endure the cold and are not part of it, so too Martin has repearedly said that Dany cannot survive fire either, and her emergence from the flames was a once off event.

So its not like she is a Fire elemental herself. She is merely associated with it, like the Starks are associated with Winter.

The Shadows in Mirri's tent already shows us that the Wolf is the opposite of the Man wreathed in Flames. Ice and Fire.

I haven't read the books in the Recluce series. But yes, I agree it appears that a balance between ice and fire is what will probably be the eventual outcome and not the total destruction of either one. And I feel "song" implies this balance. Dany is a conqueror, and I feel from her last chapter in ADWD, she will come to embody the destruction/uprooting of the prevailing order/status quo if you will, whether it be Essos or Westeros, which also fits her "dragons plant no trees" and the fire consumes themes. 

Like you said, just as the Targaryens are associated with fire, the Starks are associated with ice and winter, and as a poster up-thread stated the title of the series can allude to multiple storylines/arcs in the series. And one cannot dismiss Jon's connection to ice and fire and Rhaegar's reference to his child's song being the "Song of Ice and Fire."

[Drogonthedread]

4 hours ago, teej6 said:

"Fire consumes, but cold preserves." Said by no less a character than Maester Aemon. I would call that a positive, wouldn't you? 

“I mean… Fire is love, fire is passion, fire is sexual ardor and all of these things. Ice is betrayal, ice is revenge, ice is… you know, that kind of cold inhumanity and all that stuff is being played out in the books.”.

-George R.R. Martin

And this is from GRRm himself...I always took aemon's quote meaning that fire is what actually represents the life itself...

 

[Poupsi]

So, the "great good hero" at the end is no handsome super warrior ?! Who could that be ?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody ever believed that nonsense, anyway. You have to be crazy to even come up with the idea when George deliberately introduced a woman like Sybell Spicer who was both capable and determined to ensure that Robb's line would die with him.

Ah, but people are numpties. Haha. I literally went from this post to look at the board selected a topic, and low and behold what did I spy. People proclaiming Jeyne to be with child. And then my right eye began to twitch. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Drogonthedread said:

“I mean… Fire is love, fire is passion, fire is sexual ardor and all of these things. Ice is betrayal, ice is revenge, ice is… you know, that kind of cold inhumanity and all that stuff is being played out in the books.”.

-George R.R. Martin

And this is from GRRm himself...I always took aemon's quote meaning that fire is what actually represents the life itself...

 

Hmmm. Seems to be that it is exactly this Fire of love, passion and yes, sexual ardor, that Jon's internal struggle is about giving more free reign, even if it runs counter to what some would call the "inhuman, cold" oaths of the Night's Watch.

In other words, Jon needs to balance the symbolic characteristics of Ice and Fire in his soul to be the man he needs to be. To represent the Song of Ice and Fire. Because you cannot be all about the chaos of passion, sexual ardor and love either. It needs to be balanced with the order that Ice brings to the table.

EDIT

Come to think of it, to borrow from Star Wars, those characteristics of Fire sound awfully similar to what drives people to the Dark side of the Force, compared to the detachment and order of the Light side. And in the end, as we all know, the aim in that particular fantasy Universe is once again to find balance between these two extremes. And the saviour is the one who brings about this balance.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, teej6 said:

"Fire consumes, but cold preserves." Said by no less a character than Maester Aemon. I would call that a positive, wouldn't you? 

I know that quote. What sort of cold do you think 'preserves' the wights? Ice magic, one assumes. And that's not positive.

3 hours ago, teej6 said:

I haven't read the books in the Recluce series. But yes, I agree it appears that a balance between ice and fire is what will probably be the eventual outcome and not the total destruction of either one. And I feel "song" implies this balance. Dany is a conqueror, and I feel from her last chapter in ADWD, she will come to embody the destruction/uprooting of the prevailing order/status quo if you will, whether it be Essos or Westeros, which also fits her "dragons plant no trees" and the fire consumes themes. 

 

We have to wait and see what exactly she is going to do there. But Dany is not very likely to destroy order in Westeros and cause chaos and mayhem there - it is already there. War is going to continue in Westeros throughout TWoW long before Dany even arrives, and unless everybody is happy and safe again in Westeros when she comes (which cannot be at this point) then there is no reason to see her as another force of destruction.

And even if she was - she certainly isn't on the same scale as the Others. Dany doesn't command an army of zombies who intend to kill everybody and transform the entire world into a desert.

3 hours ago, teej6 said:

Like you said, just as the Targaryens are associated with fire, the Starks are associated with ice and winter, and as a poster up-thread stated the title of the series can allude to multiple storylines/arcs in the series. And one cannot dismiss Jon's connection to ice and fire and Rhaegar's reference to his child's song being the "Song of Ice and Fire."

The Others are truly associated with ice and winter. The Starks aren't in the same manner. It is stupid to ignore that. This series is not about a fight between the Targaryens and the Starks. The big theme of the series, the climax/finale will be the fight against the Others. Ice against fire. And fire will win. In the game of throne there might be a middle ground, but in the fight against the Others there is most certainly none.

And from a narrative point of view one has to ask oneself why the hell George would give Dany the information about the promised prince and the Song of Ice and Fire when this was not all intricately interwoven with her. If Jon Snow was that guy wouldn't one then not assume he would have been given information about the prophecy and the savior so that he can recognize himself when he finally learns the truth about his heritage? He is completely unprepared for such a thing right now.

@Free Northman Reborn

There is no hint that some sort of balance can or should be achieved in this world. If that was the case then one would assume such a concept had either been introduced or alluded to by now. But there is nothing of this sort.

[blckp]

one more thing, since Daenerys is Azor Ahai then Stallion Who Mounts The World is same as PTWP,Yin Tar,Shadowchaser,Last hero , just dothraki version

 

The Last Hero - Westeros

Azor Ahai- Asshai

The Prince That Was Promised - Valyria/targaryen

in some other essos culture -Hyrkoon the Hero, Yin Tar, Neferion

The Stallion Who Mounts the World -Dothraki

[Free Northman Reborn]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I know that quote. What sort of cold do you think 'preserves' the wights? Ice magic, one assumes. And that's not positive.

We have to wait and see what exactly she is going to do there. But Dany is not very likely to destroy order in Westeros and cause chaos and mayhem there - it is already there. War is going to continue in Westeros throughout TWoW long before Dany even arrives, and unless everybody is happy and safe again in Westeros when she comes (which cannot be at this point) then there is no reason to see her as another force of destruction.

And even if she was - she certainly isn't on the same scale as the Others. Dany doesn't command an army of zombies who intend to kill everybody and transform the entire world into a desert.

The Others are truly associated with ice and winter. The Starks aren't in the same manner. It is stupid to ignore that. This series is not about a fight between the Targaryens and the Starks. The big theme of the series, the climax/finale will be the fight against the Others. Ice against fire. And fire will win. In the game of throne there might be a middle ground, but in the fight against the Others there is most certainly none.

And from a narrative point of view one has to ask oneself why the hell George would give Dany the information about the promised prince and the Song of Ice and Fire when this was not all intricately interwoven with her. If Jon Snow was that guy wouldn't one then not assume he would have been given information about the prophecy and the savior so that he can recognize himself when he finally learns the truth about his heritage? He is completely unprepared for such a thing right now.

@Free Northman Reborn

There is no hint that some sort of balance can or should be achieved in this world. If that was the case then one would assume such a concept had either been introduced or alluded to by now. But there is nothing of this sort.

But we are told explicitly by various sources that Dragons represent destructions, Fire and Blood. Death, even.

A summer that never ends is as devastating as an eternal Winter. Jojen states that there is a strength in living wood that can withstand even the hottest flames. Bloodraven states that Darkness equates to security and safety.

Only Mellisandre and the Fire cult of R'hlorr seems to believe that Fire has to win this coming battle. And are we really going to side with the fanatics on this issue? In the Reeds' ancient oath to Winterfell they refer to various base elements that are intrinsic to the world. Earth and Water. Bronze and Iron. Ice and Fire.

We have seen a world dominated by Fire. It was the Valyrian Freehold, and it was awful. And if left unchecked, who knows what its end result would have been. The destruction of the world in a Siberian traps type decades long super eruption?

 

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

But we are told explicitly by various sources that Dragons represent destructions, Fire and Blood. Death, even.

But there is never a hint that dragons are going to devour the world or kill all the humans. Putting the dragons and the Others in the same box is just a false dichotomy. The dragons are animals, they do not plan to do anything. The Others are intelligent.

5 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

A summer that never ends is as devastating as an eternal Winter. Jojen states that there is a strength in living wood that can withstand even the hottest flames. Bloodraven states that Darkness equates to security and safety.

I'd challenge your claim that an eternal summer is as devastating as an eternal winter. Winter sucks, summer is great. And there is an eternal summer of sorts on earth, too, right? You know that there is nothing but continuous warmth and rain in the tropics, right? No winter of the sort there is elsewhere. Yet life flourishes in those regions as it does in nowhere else. And the Summer Islands also seem to be a region where there is either no winter under normal circumstances or no winter that is actually felt. Yet they have no problem with that, either.

5 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Only Mellisandre and the Fire cult of R'hlorr seems to believe that Fire has to win this coming battle. And are we really going to side with the fanatics on this issue? In the Reeds' ancient oath to Winterfell they refer to various base elements that are intrinsic to the world. Earth and Water. Bronze and Iron. Ice and Fire.

So what? I'm not saying ice is going to be annihilated. Nobody is going to melt the pole caps or something like that. I think fire as life force/the warmth of life is going to win the war.

5 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

We have seen a world dominated by Fire. It was the Valyrian Freehold, and it was awful. And if left unchecked, who knows what its end result would have been. The destruction of the world in a Siberian traps type decades long super eruption?

The slavery of the Valyrian Freehold was bad but the society and the dragons weren't 'evil'. Especially not in a metaphysical sense. They didn't deserve to be killed. Just as the US don't have to be eradicated because they gave the world nuclear weapons.

[Free Northman Reborn]

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But there is never a hint that dragons are going to devour the world or kill all the humans. Putting the dragons and the Others in the same box is just a false dichotomy. The dragons are animals, they do not plan to do anything. The Others are intelligent.

I'd challenge your claim that an eternal summer is as devastating as an eternal winter. Winter sucks, summer is great. And there is an eternal summer of sorts on earth, too, right? You know that there is nothing but continuous warmth and rain in the tropics, right? No winter of the sort there is elsewhere. Yet life flourishes in those regions as it does in nowhere else. And the Summer Islands also seem to be a region where there is either no winter under normal circumstances or no winter that is actually felt. Yet they have no problem with that, either.

So what? I'm not saying ice is going to be annihilated. Nobody is going to melt the pole caps or something like that. I think fire as life force/the warmth of life is going to win the war.

The slavery of the Valyrian Freehold was bad but the society and the dragons weren't 'evil'. Especially not in a metaphysical sense. They didn't deserve to be killed. Just as the US don't have to be eradicated because they gave the world nuclear weapons.

Arguably global warming is as bad as global cooling. The opposite of snowball Earth is a Venus type planet. Taking it to its logical extreme, Fire left unchecked leads to the oceans boiling away eventually. Just like Winter left unchecked leads to an entire world covered by glaciers with a single frozen ocean covering the world.

The balmy temperatures you are referring to as the ideal situation is a proper balance between Ice and Fire.

[Lord Varys]

38 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Arguably global warming is as bad as global cooling. The opposite of snowball Earth is a Venus type planet. Taking it to its logical extreme, Fire left unchecked leads to the oceans boiling away eventually. Just like Winter left unchecked leads to an entire world covered by glaciers with a single frozen ocean covering the world.

The balmy temperatures you are referring to as the ideal situation is a proper balance between Ice and Fire.

Well, there is no hint that a bunch of dragons leads to global warming or the oceans boiling away. There is no war between fire and ice in that sense. There is no fire power equal to the power of the Others in this world. If such a power existed you theory would make some sense.

Eternal summer doesn't necessarily mean a desert or a lot of heat. People do dream about an eternal summer in Westeros, meaning the kind of summer they have continuing indefinitely. If there can be summers stretching on for years and years then there is no reason not to assume that this could go on forever without doing any harm.

And a tropical climate isn't even necessary for such a summer.

Speaking about that, there is no agency on the human side to try to mess with the seasons or create some sort of eternal summer. But the Others are trying to create an eternal winter with magical means. That is bad. If the dragons have any effect then they are sort of interfering with that plan inadvertently but nobody actually created dragons on purpose to fight the Others - at least to our present knowledge. It might very well turn out that this is the case.

But think about it - George could have made the Targaryens/dragonlords actually fire demons or fiery people (of the sort Mel is). Then they could have been as twisted as the Others. But they aren't.

[DMC]

The most notable aspect of this interview for me is serving as a reminder David Shuster still has a job at Al Jazeera.  The questions were clearly staff-prepared (to the point Shuster has trouble reading off one of them late in the clip given by the OP), and Martin's answers are pretty run-of-the-mill.  Knowing his background, I strongly suspect Shuster viewed an interview with a fantasy author as beneath him.  Also, a 5 second google search tells us the interview took place in late 2014, presumably to market the World Book.

As for the debate on the title, I've assumed its meaning will always be left complex and ambiguous.  To imply one character, whether Jon or Dany, is the primary aspect of ASOIAF goes against the entire construction of the narrative.

[Free Northman Reborn]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, there is no hint that a bunch of dragons leads to global warming or the oceans boiling away. There is no war between fire and ice in that sense. There is no fire power equal to the power of the Others in this world. If such a power existed you theory would make some sense.

Eternal summer doesn't necessarily mean a desert or a lot of heat. People do dream about an eternal summer in Westeros, meaning the kind of summer they have continuing indefinitely. If there can be summers stretching on for years and years then there is no reason not to assume that this could go on forever without doing any harm.

And a tropical climate isn't even necessary for such a summer.

Speaking about that, there is no agency on the human side to try to mess with the seasons or create some sort of eternal summer. But the Others are trying to create an eternal winter with magical means. That is bad. If the dragons have any effect then they are sort of interfering with that plan inadvertently but nobody actually created dragons on purpose to fight the Others - at least to our present knowledge. It might very well turn out that this is the case.

But think about it - George could have made the Targaryens/dragonlords actually fire demons or fiery people (of the sort Mel is). Then they could have been as twisted as the Others. But they aren't.

Well, we are told that Dragons are unnatural creatures by Septon Barth. And the Seasons are certainly unnatural as well. Whatever causes the imbalance of the Seasons on Planetos does not only cause Long Winters. It causes equally long Summers. Who knows what impact the rise of the Valyrian Freehold would have had on a Planet that did not already have the Others to neutralize their escalation of Fire Magic in the world? Gradually hotter and hotter temperatures perhaps, leading to runaway global warming?

Remember that the Children are not masters of Ice magic. They are masters of Earth magic. Those who sing the songs of the Earth. So whatever they did to create the Others, if they indeed did so in the books, was achieved by tapping into the existing elemental magic of Ice, which occurs naturally in the Far North of the world. Just like the dragon creators tapped into existing Fire elemental magic to create the Dragons, originally.

Perhaps the Others in themselves are a hybrid between humans and "Ice Spiders", similar to how Dragons are a hybrid of Wyverns and Fire wyrms".

The Others just happened to have been hybridized with intelligent creatures (humans) with a mastery over greenseer magic. By contrast, the Dragons were hybridized with non-intelligent wyverns, thus not giving them the sentience associated with the Others.

[teej6]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I know that quote. What sort of cold do you think 'preserves' the wights? Ice magic, one assumes. And that's not positive.

We have to wait and see what exactly she is going to do there. But Dany is not very likely to destroy order in Westeros and cause chaos and mayhem there - it is already there. War is going to continue in Westeros throughout TWoW long before Dany even arrives, and unless everybody is happy and safe again in Westeros when she comes (which cannot be at this point) then there is no reason to see her as another force of destruction.

And even if she was - she certainly isn't on the same scale as the Others. Dany doesn't command an army of zombies who intend to kill everybody and transform the entire world into a desert.

The Others are truly associated with ice and winter. The Starks aren't in the same manner. It is stupid to ignore that. This series is not about a fight between the Targaryens and the Starks. The big theme of the series, the climax/finale will be the fight against the Others. Ice against fire. And fire will win. In the game of throne there might be a middle ground, but in the fight against the Others there is most certainly none.

And from a narrative point of view one has to ask oneself why the hell George would give Dany the information about the promised prince and the Song of Ice and Fire when this was not all intricately interwoven with her. If Jon Snow was that guy wouldn't one then not assume he would have been given information about the prophecy and the savior so that he can recognize himself when he finally learns the truth about his heritage? He is completely unprepared for such a thing right now.

@Free Northman Reborn

There is no hint that some sort of balance can or should be achieved in this world. If that was the case then one would assume such a concept had either been introduced or alluded to by now. But there is nothing of this sort.

Maester Aemon's quote does not simply imply that cold preserves the wights. When it suits your views, you seem to have a very narrow interpretation of things. If you read that entire paragraph, it implies that Aemon has figured out something that he thinks Jon does not know. Well, we know Jon knows about ice preserving wights. And Aemon regrets having left the Wall once he has this knowledge. So is that him just thinking about preserving wights? No. And Aemon is not rambling, he's quite lucid and aware in this instance. 

If you argue that the Starks are not associated with ice and winter, then I can make the argument that Dany and the Targs are not truly associated with fire, instead that's their dragons. You can't have your cake and eat it too. 

As to why Dany is given the information about the promised prince and the Song and Ice and Fire, it's because she is at the HotU and having the vision and will eventually have to figure out that this implies to her actual nephew, Jon. Why does she have her other visions? For example, why does she see the red wedding? Was she there? Does it relate to her? No. Her visions in the HotU is just Martin's way of narrating future events to the reader, some of which will have an impact on Dany's story. You can twist yourself as much as you want and argue to the contrary but it's very intuitive and self evident to a lot of people that one of the meanings of the title is the bloodline of Jon. And I  believe that "song" implies balance not conflict. 

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But there is never a hint that dragons are going to devour the world or kill all the humans. Putting the dragons and the Others in the same box is just a false dichotomy. The dragons are animals, they do not plan to do anything. The Others are intelligent.

In TWoW, Teora Toland narrates her dream and notes that "everywhere the dragons danced, the people died." I would say that this is a strong indication of the future destruction and mayhem that dragons are going to inflict on the people of Westeros. Are they going to be as destructive as the Others? Probably not. But then here we are down to arguing the magnitude of destruction. Does it matter if it's 10,000 people dying instead of 50,000?