Ashara & the mysteries of the Royal Children, explained

[MizasterJ]

Looking at the events described in the tale of the laughing knight and the tourney of harrenhal as well as the Tower of Joy scene: I want to analyze and possibly solve the Mysteries of Ashara Dayne, her death, her child, her allegiance,her lovers?

 

The idea that Ashara was" dishonored" is along the lines that GRRM is once again using the Unreliable Narrator trope. Why? because it goes along too well with her suicide. people that don't know the details logically create speculation to fill in the blanks of rumors they've heard. If the dead baby rumors were spread intentionally to mislead, then Im sure the suicide rumors and dishonored rumors were also intended to mislead. Dishonored implies rape, yet I think this is more along the lines of young adults fooling around and falling in love. However, I'm not completely going to rule out the possibility of rape. Rape is a common theme in ASOIAF. We have the "bear & the maiden fair" which is kind of a song about how "Rape" can transform into love.

Im quite certain that Ashara did indeed have a child. Also why would the author make a point to tell us this if the child died? Certainly not just to show us that Ashara was dishonored, but that there was something more at play, most likely a love triangle. Im 90% certain that Ned & Ashara were in love but that they knew they couldn't be together, because of obligations. Obligations such as Ned needing to marry Cat, and Ashara possibly needing to bare a child for Rhaegar & Elia. We have strong reason to believe that Rhaegar was trying to have a 3rd child who he believed would be The prince who was promised. No doubt his close friends Arthur Dayne, and Jon Connington would assist in finding him the perfect mother for this child to be. Also, Rheagar's wife Elia was close with Ashara.

I have no doubt that the origin of the child is a key piece of this whole story involving Ned, Lyanna,Rheagar, Ashara.Arthur and probably even Jon Connington and TPWWP. I think there is at least a 85% chance that Young Griff is Ashara's child, but is Rheagar the father, or Connington, or Ned? We may never know for certain as GRRM and many other authors prefer to keep things open to interpretation.

 

GRRM loves to play at mysteries. Most of the series is a play on the confusion of succession in feudalism, and the idea that inheritance law is sloppy at best. George is no doubt playing on the mystery "which one is the rightful king" once again. I believe there are at least 2 sons of Rheagar walking around alive and well within our story. Thus we will have to settle it with another "dance of dragons".

 

I am 95% certain that GRRM is setting up another DoDs and it will happen probably in the Winds of Winter. However, it most likely won't be because people think Jon Snow is Rheagar's son, I doubt that info will ever become public knowledge to the people of Planetos. This DoDs will feature Daenerys v Young Griff, which may very well lead to us fans discovering that they were both born in Dorne.

 

In conclusion: I believe young griff is Ashara's child. There's a strong chance that he is also Rheagar's son. I believe Ashara knew about Rheagar's other child w/ Lyanna (probably Jon) as many people were in on this grand scheme by Rheagar to fulfill the Prince who was promised prophecy. Ned & Ashara worked out a deal to each raise 1 child secretly, as if they were the result of their love for each other. Also keeping their heritage secret because if they knew each other had a claim to the throne war would break out. Finally, having said all this, I believe it lends a great amount of credence to the idea that the sword Dawn = Lightbringer, and that the son of Rheagar and /or Ashara will inherit it.

 

[Sansa Snow]

I also think that Ashara is Aegon's mother, but I believe she's dead herself and Septa Lemore could possibly be Wylla the wet nurse from Starfall. Ashara has to have some important meaning, she's been mentioned way too often for her to be just Jon's rumoured mother.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Wylla was Ned Dayne's wet nurse & still is in the Dayne family employ.

[OuttaOldtown]

1 hour ago, Sansa Snow said:

I also think that Ashara is Aegon's mother, but I believe she's dead herself and Septa Lemore could possibly be Wylla the wet nurse from Starfall. Ashara has to have some important meaning, she's been mentioned way too often for her to be just Jon's rumoured mother.

Once by Cat to Ned in AGoT, later by Cersei to Ned, both in reference to the aforementioned rumor. Edric mentions her to Arya and Selmy in regards to his little crush, that's two more times in four books which she's mentioned by name. She's also included in the story of the knight at the laughing tree, though not by name, but I'll count it. That's five chapters in five books, none of which are centered around her, that's not exactly what I'd call 'way too often'. I compile a list of characters mentioned more often but I'm afraid that would exceed the character limit..

[Sansa Snow]

1 hour ago, Winds of Winter blow cold said:

Wylla was Ned Dayne's wet nurse & still is in the Dayne family employ.

We don't know where she is now. We only hear from Edric how she's served the Daynes for many years.

32 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Once by Cat to Ned in AGoT, later by Cersei to Ned, both in reference to the aforementioned rumor. Edric mentions her to Arya and Selmy in regards to his little crush, that's two more times in four books which she's mentioned by name. She's also included in the story of the knight at the laughing tree, though not by name, but I'll count it. That's five chapters in five books, none of which are centered around her, that's not exactly what I'd call 'way too often'. I compile a list of characters mentioned more often but I'm afraid that would exceed the character limit..

Well, to me that's suspiciously often. Especially since GRRM has been very subtle with his hints in the books and the mysterious Ashara Dayne does come up quite a few times. If the writer didn't want to draw attention to this character, we wouldn't hear her name from so many different characters.

[Scorpion92]

I agree that there is more mystery to whole Ashara situation, but Rhaegar being father of her child is ABSURD.

If that was true, then I do not think Ned in his POVs will remember him without hate - not only escaping with sister which started the whole Rebellion, but also impregnating a woman he was in love with.

I believe that Ned and Ashara were deeply in love and he had all intentions of marrying her, but after Rebellion started, he had obligations as new Lord of Winterfell. I think that they had farewell sex at Starfall when he came to give Dawn back to Dayne family.

And the result of that farewell sex is Daenerys. Everything she knows of her childhood and heritage is through Viserys. And God knows, he is the most unreliable narrator ever. If there was some plot or attempts to give away Dany as a Targaryen, he probably would not notice.

So yeah, in my opinion, the reason Jon and Dany have so many parallels in the story is because they lived each other's lives - one a Stark bastard raised as Targaryen trueborn (Dany), another a Targaryen trueborn raised as a Stark bastard (Jon).

[IceFire125]

12 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

I agree that there is more mystery to whole Ashara situation, but Rhaegar being father of her child is ABSURD.

If that was true, then I do not think Ned in his POVs will remember him without hate - not only escaping with sister which started the whole Rebellion, but also impregnating a woman he was in love with.

I believe that Ned and Ashara were deeply in love and he had all intentions of marrying her, but after Rebellion started, he had obligations as new Lord of Winterfell. I think that they had farewell sex at Starfall when he came to give Dawn back to Dayne family.

And the result of that farewell sex is Daenerys. Everything she knows of her childhood and heritage is through Viserys. And God knows, he is the most unreliable narrator ever. If there was some plot or attempts to give away Dany as a Targaryen, he probably would not notice.

So yeah, in my opinion, the reason Jon and Dany have so many parallels in the story is because they lived each other's lives - one a Stark bastard raised as Targaryen trueborn (Dany), another a Targaryen trueborn raised as a Stark bastard (Jon).

I disagree with this thought.

There's no narrative sense at all in the current 5 books with Dany's "Fire and Blood" identity arc when she's in fact the fruit of a Stark and Dayne.

Your parallel situation should be Jon and fAegon--in terms with Rhaegar's son.

fAegon was raised knowing he is the true heir to throne, but is actually a bastard and low born; Jon was raised as a bastard and low born, but is actually the true heir to the throne.

Dany is full blooded Targaryen, she is the second phase of ASOIAF narrative that will bring Fire and Blood (as did with Aegon I) to Westeros.  Yes, she will culminate the resolution of Dance 2.0 + Blackfyre Rebellion of the nth time against fAegon.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

"Dishonored" does not imply rape. It implies that she got caught doing something she shouldn't and the guy didn't even offer for her hand to make it right. Could be something as simple as a makeout session that got interrupted by somebody with a big mouth. People tend to jump straight to sex on this, but in medieval culture a lady's honor could easily be damaged without going very far at all. 

The stillborn child doesn't necessarily relate to what happened at Harrenhal either. If she'd gotten pregnant there and lost her baby 8-9 months later, she wouldn't have waited until the war was over to kill her self. However...after she'd been dishonored it's possible that the dishonorable men around her decided she was fair game for being seduced and she did get pregnant some months after Harrenhal.

The paternity of the child (if there was one) is impossible to know. GRRM has stated that she "was not nailed down at Starfall" during the war, so she could have met up with the guy from Harrenhal, or she could have gone visiting in Dorne since there wasn't any fighting going on there, or she could have been back and forth to King's Landing half a dozen times. 

[Light a wight tonight]

24 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

 

I believe that Ned and Ashara were deeply in love and he had all intentions of marrying her, but after Rebellion started, he had obligations as new Lord of Winterfell. I think that they had farewell sex at Starfall when he came to give Dawn back to Dayne family.

And the result of that farewell sex is Daenerys. Everything she knows of her childhood and heritage is through Viserys. And God knows, he is the most unreliable narrator ever. If there was some plot or attempts to give away Dany as a Targaryen, he probably would not notice.

One problem is the fact that Dany was able to hatch the dragon eggs. Neither Daynes nor Starks have been shown to have an ability to work with dragons.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

What if it was Aerys...and Ashara? 

[norwaywolf123]

Moonboy is the father for all i know.

[MizasterJ]

1 hour ago, Sansa Snow said:

We don't know where she is now. We only hear from Edric how she's served the Daynes for many years.

Well, to me that's suspiciously often. Especially since GRRM has been very subtle with his hints in the books and the mysterious Ashara Dayne does come up quite a few times. If the writer didn't want to draw attention to this character, we wouldn't hear her name from so many different characters.

Exactly. When the character or event is explicitly important and any details could easily spoil the story GRRM keeps it very hush hush. To this day George refuses to answer just about any question regarding Ashara. The fact that it happened in the past, she died, and yet Barristan talks about it is even further evidence. I can understand why Cat or Cersei would mention it, as they were of close association with Ned, but Barristan? why? Why would the author make a point in later books to have yet another character fixate on her if she was just a mislead / red herring.  I'm not saying she is alive, but her I'm willing to bet her child is. 

Also with the Arianne's POV and the emergence of Darkstar of house dayne kidnapping Myrcella, we have house dayne once again thrust into the spotlight.

[MizasterJ]

let me clarify that, I still believe in R+L=J.  Also I highly doubt Connington is young griff's bio father, and that I seriously doubt he ever had any relations with Ashara but, I do believe that Rhaegar & probably Elia too were considering Ashara as a mother to the 3rd child. The timing of which could have been ruined when Rhaegar realised Lyanna was destined to be the mother of TPWWP. This could also be the cause of Ashara's death, when she realised her child with Rhaegar (which very few knew about) would not be King and would be a threat to Lyanna's child when Ned brought the baby to Starfall.

Now I admit pairing Rhaegar with Ashara is a little awkward and would require some backflips to accept. The timing of which would be hard to establish. She didn't dance with Rhaegar at harrenhall, so we have nothing to assume she ever had relations with him other than her being close with Elia and her bro Arthur. However, the dragon has 3 heads..3 children, 3 Targs...3 mothers??? GRM loves things in 3s.

Jon, Dany, young griff, what are the chances they are all children of Rhaegar?

 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

[Curled Finger]

An interesting premise.   It never occurred to me that Aegon could be the mysterious child of Ashara Dayne.  This idea that Rhaegar was openly soliciting a woman to bear his 3rd child is also a new one to me.  There are many "children" of an age who could fit the bill for Ashara's child.   With only +/- a year at play in the ages, any of them could serve in theory.   Still, as @Light a wight tonight offered, Dany has hatched dragons, a feat which to the best of our knowledge, only Targs can pull off.   There is the small matter of Varys' and Illirio's interventions in the matters of Dany and Aegon.   It's obvious to me that they are both completely aware of Aegon's identity and have been active in his rearing.   Varys' impassioned speech to Kevan in the prologue of ADWD is glaring proof.   Not that it leads me any closer to Aegon's true identity, but it cements Varys' knowledge for me.   I think this is important here.   Why would Illyrio and Varys back Rhaegar's bastard when they've got the real deal in Dany? Let's not forget that once Viserys and Dany landed in Illyrio's care he was the one to mastermind the marriage to Khal Drogo and perhaps Varys arranged for Jorah Mormont to make Dany's acquaintance.   Further, it seemed to be very important (to Illyrio & Varys) to get Tyrion to Aegon.   Why?   

There is obviously some sort of agenda going on with Aegon though the major players are all well aware of Dany's existence and power.  At this point we don't know if Aegon has any Targ power with dragons.   What Aegon does have is political pull with a bunch of exiles and 2 shady advisors.  Aegon may have the support of The Stormlands and Dorne in TWOW, but that remains to be seen.    I'm not sure if Aegon isn't a smokescreen front to pave the way for Dany as the puppet masters seem to have their bloody hands in both camps.  

I know none of this brings us any closer to solving the mystery of the fates of Ashara Dayne and her child.  It's only posted to illuminate the multiple layers of design in the fates of these children.   I'm at a loss to make the connection with Varys & Illyrio via Ashara Dayne and her possible Targ bastard.    

[MizasterJ]

12 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

  There is the small matter of Varys' and Illirio's interventions in the matters of Dany and Aegon.   It's obvious to me that they are both completely aware of Aegon's identity and have been active in his rearing.   Varys' impassioned speech to Kevan in the prologue of ADWD is glaring proof.   Not that it leads me any closer to Aegon's true identity, but it cements Varys' knowledge for me.   I think this is important here.   Why would Illyrio and Varys back Rhaegar's bastard when they've got the real deal in Dany?

Because they can't control Dany, shes off doing her own thing. They tried to rear her back in but she has proven to be somewhat of a wildcard if not stubborn. Her ideals for ruling might not be in tune with Varys & Illyrios. If in fact young griff is bastard born, it makes no matter as they are already selling him as the legit son of Rhaegar. It seems pretty damn likely that Ashara's child is out there and is pretty damned important. young Griff has her eyes. Who else could fit the bill? 

[Curled Finger]

19 minutes ago, MizasterJ said:

Because they can't control Dany, shes off doing her own thing. They tried to rear her back in but she has proven to be somewhat of a wildcard if not stubborn. Her ideals for ruling might not be in tune with Varys & Illyrios. If in fact young griff is bastard born, it makes no matter as they are already selling him as the legit son of Rhaegar. It seems pretty damn likely that Ashara's child is out there and is pretty damned important. young Griff has her eyes. Who else could fit the bill? 

Could be, MizasterJ.   Still, V & I have kept their hands in every possible Targ resurgence they are aware of.   Targaryan words are Blood and Fire.  Dany's ideals are completely in line with the words.   We don't yet know if Aegon's are.   I think they are playing both ends against the middle with Dany and Aegon.    V & I are setting up a very nasty confrontation between Aegon and Dany.   Though I have to say that selling Aegon as the trueborn son of Rhaegar is a stroke of diabolical genius.   

I know a great deal is made of Aegon's eye color and please note that I use the name Aegon not fAegon.  I will hold judgement until I am satisfied with his identity.  Still the fact that Aegon's eyes match the description of Ashara's eyes doesn't make him Rhaegar's bastard.   It only makes him a likely Dayne.   I think a lot of Targaryan truth lies in the ability to control dragons.  We need to see this boy's magic before we can be certain.   

[BalerionTheCat]

Aegon is most likely the son of Illirio and Serra. There are quite some evidences of that. How else to explain the interest of an Essos cheese monger for Aegon and the IT? Ashara had a child. Maybe she did not die. But there is no evidence of that. Or who she (or he) is. But there is zero mystery concerning who Daenrys and Jon mothers are. And barely any for their father.

[MizasterJ]

26 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I know a great deal is made of Aegon's eye color and please note that I use the name Aegon not fAegon.  I will hold judgement until I am satisfied with his identity.  Still the fact that Aegon's eyes match the description of Ashara's eyes doesn't make him Rhaegar's bastard.   It only makes him a likely Dayne.   I think a lot of Targaryan truth lies in the ability to control dragons.  We need to see this boy's magic before we can be certain.   

Then how would you explain his silver hair? According to the westeros.org wiki, his hair is silver as noted by Tyrion in chapter 18 ADWDs.

Tyrion is 99% convinced he is the trueborn son of Rhaegar, and Tyrion is no fool. I'm not really doubting he is the son of Rhaegar, I'm just thinking of ways he might be Ashara's son. 

What would V&I have against Rhaegar or Ashara for that matter? Yes, I understand they would probably rather have a Blackfyre sitting on the throne, but that is kind of a topic for another day. 

Ashara remains the biggest mystery to me in the series other than the origin of the wall. I just find it extremely hard to believe that Ashara is just an elaborate mislead.

[MizasterJ]

34 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Aegon is most likely the son of Illirio and Serra. There are quite some evidences of that. How else to explain the interest of an Essos cheese monger for Aegon and the IT? Ashara had a child. Maybe she did not die. But there is no evidence of that. Or who she (or he) is. But there is zero mystery concerning who Daenrys and Jon mothers are. And barely any for their father.

You certainly make some good points. I acknowledge that the Blackfyres are probably a dangling plot that GRRM has up his sleeve,ready to bring back in a big way, I'd actually really enjoy it if young griff turns out to be a blackfyre, but the silver hair...the eyes, striking resemblances to Rhaegar. I know the BFs shared similar traits as they are of blood. So yah maybe, young Griff isn't Rhaegar or Ashara's.

 Anyhow, the biggest reason I believe Ashara's child is out there (& maybe Ashara herself) is that I believe Dawn=Lightbringer, and that her child is destined to inherit this sword. It is all part of the same prophecy that Rhaegar believed so dearly.

Now what if prophecy is all just a bunch of wishful thinking? Well then, this would be hardly as interesting of a story. As we are seeing with Cersei's children,some prophecies are bound to come true, either by fate or coincidence.