Ashara & the mysteries of the Royal Children, explained

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually, I find the personal blood tie for Varys' motivation jar with his political idealism. Sure, it's not actual democratic idealism, it's Il Principe idealism - how to create the right environment for a ruler that will have all the autocratic power while stripping all the lords of their feudal powers (anti Magna Carta). If it's for a nephew then why this elaborate crafting to implode the houses. If it's for Blackfyre, then why even bother claiming he's a Targ.

I can accept Serra being a Blackfyre descendant. Illyrio gains a son who's king of Westeros out of it, regardless of his own blood. Varys I see as on the one hand seizing hte opportunity to repay his best friend (emotional brother), while getting off at the feeling of behind-the-screen power he has for this elaborate political machiavelistic idealism of his. Him being Serra's brother makes it too base for me. The fact that he does it as a master-puppeteer just to be the master-puppeteer makes him far more dangerous and powerful imo. People who act and plan for decades out of such an idealism are rare, but they do exist. And they're usually more effective, because it allows them emotional flexibility.

Meh, nah. I don't see the point in Varys investing in a boy he has no blood tie to. If his motivation is being left out of what he perceives as his heritage ie: the IT. Then what is his motivation to place the child of a different Targ bastard branch on it?  I can see how you would be inclined to help, but he's not just helped out a bit on the principle that these two bastard branches have common cause. He's dedicated his entire life to it's aims, placing himself in a dangerous position at court where to be discovered is death. To risk your own life for a cause, you need a real tie to it. Not just being friends with the boys father.  I think he and Serra were siblings as it gives Varys some humanity, a real human reason to want the boy on the IT. I don't see Varys doing it just out of empathy for the Blackfyres. Varys isn't that altruistic. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

14 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Thank you for the compliment.

You are right I am suggesting that the Lyseni Noblewoman he may have procreated with could be a descendant of Saera T. Not many mothers would leave their children just look at the examples set by Gilly, Catlyn, even Cersei (in Marcella's case) but then you have Larra Rogare who left Aegon IV (her leaving may have led to his womanizing), Nerys and Aemon in Kingslanding to go back to Lys. Doran's wife Mellario went back to Norvos and left Arianne, Quentyn and Trystane in Dorne. I don't know Saera's character other than she ran away from a mother house and crossed the narrow sea but it seems like if motherhood didn't agree with her then she would have left.

I like the way you figured that Varys might be Aerion's great grandson. It parallels Renifer Longwater's story that he told Jaime about his great grandmother being a Targaryen Princess which we have come to find out is Eleana Targaryen. You know I have a weird suspicion that perhaps Varys and Serra may be Rogare's as well as Brightflames. The Rogare family ambition and ultimate downfall definitely fits what you suspect about Varys. I also suspect that Larra Rogare and perhaps Serenei of Lys might be descendants of Saera Targaryen. And these blood ties may it easier to find footholds in Westeros. And I know it would be terribly convenient for these women to be her descendants but blood ties are so obsessively exalted that it would not surprise me. But this is my own tin foil hat suspicions. 

See I thought the same thing and I read the thing about Blackfyre being in the chest but like you said GRRM edited that part out because it would make it too easy to figure out that Aegon was a fraud. However, I think giving him Blackfyre is way way too convenient as well. I was rereading the section in The World book about the Third Blackfyre Rebellion when Bittersteel crowned Heagon I, there is no mention of Heagon I nor Bittersteel giving up Blackfyre to the Targaryens. Then we have Bittersteel refusing to give Daemon II Blackfyre the sword as well. And there were no reports of Maelys the monstrous having the sword as well during the War of the Nine Penny Kings. All of this may point to the fact that the Golden Company has kept the sword in hiding but I don't think so because it goes against the very nature of House Blackfyre especially when you have little details such as Bittersteel refusing to give Daemon II the sword and Heagon I giving up his sword and being killed. Also a Valyrian steel sword is a formidable weapon and does a lot of damage especially in the hands of someone skilled and we know that the Blackfyre's need all the help they can get. 

I think Bloodraven recovered the sword during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion but didn't report it. The sword was more trouble then it was worth as a symbol plus his dreams may have led him to keep the sword. If my tin foil hat suspicions are correct about Varys and Serra being Rogares' then the Valyrian steel sword named Truth makes more sense especially if the Golden Company proclaims it to be Blackfyre. 

A birthmark and a sword have been used in fantasy to bestow legitimacy on characters. In ASOIAF, dragon eggs are used to prove Targaryen legitimacy as well. Dragons and swords are the symbols of House Targaryen and their weapons. Blackfyre is a symbol of bastards trying to tout being legitimate but that is because Blackfyre was the legitimate sword of kings. But Aegon VI is the murmur's dragon and giving him the sword Truth and having it be touted as Blackfyre just furthers his illegitimacy. Plus GRRM is undermining the penchant of humans using magical thinking by having Blackfyre going through this transforming journey and then tying it to the sword Truth would be an excellent way to underline the subjectivity of magical thinking. 

Haha, yes you are correct, of course I was just going with my own gut feelings as a mother. 

I like that catch with the Longwaters story. You have some interesting ideas regarding Saerra & the rogares, Serenei etc.  Hmm, I dunno re Blackfyre. I kinda hold that it is probably with Illyrio. I think we need that big reveal, that Oh My God moment, when it is revealed and the reader knows that the Blackfyres are back. And I think the sword will be his downfall. The red flag that tells Dany he is not her nephew. 

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Meh, nah. I don't see the point in Varys investing in a boy he has no blood tie to. If his motivation is being left out of what he perceives as his heritage ie: the IT. Then what is his motivation to place the child of a different Targ bastard branch on it?  I can see how you would be inclined to help, but he's not just helped out a bit on the principle that these two bastard branches have common cause. He's dedicated his entire life to it's aims, placing himself in a dangerous position at court where to be discovered is death. To risk your own life for a cause, you need a real tie to it. Not just being friends with the boys father.  I think he and Serra were siblings as it gives Varys some humanity, a real human reason to want the boy on the IT. I don't see Varys doing it just out of empathy for the Blackfyres. Varys isn't that altruistic

I didn't say Varys is altruistic or donig it out of "empathy". I see him as someone who has some ideal on shaping an empire. Some very cold, analytical ideal. Instead of writing a book about it, as Machiavelli did, he actually does it. Instead of a chyvasse board, Varys has Westeros as a board, and if he's going to help someone onto the throne then what would make that person on the throne the most powerful? He wants an autocrat on the throne who doesn't have to listen to the lords, because the common folk would distrust their own feudal lords, while following the king on the IT. Varys doesn't care about the common folk. If he did, he would not have stirred Aarys' paranoia, nor push Westeros into a civil war (twice). His aim imo has always been to break feudal trust and dependence between the lords and houses and the common folk. He's cutting out the middle man. That's exactly what Machiavelli proposed for a monarch with absolute power, with Borgia as example, and what Catherine Medici and Henry VIII used as guidance to make their reign over their kingdoms absolute. It's an ideal, but not an empathic or altruistic ideal at all. It's an absolute power ideal. Borgia, Catherine and Henry VIII weren't humanists. They slaughtered a lot of people.

And to pull it off, imo, Varys himself works better if he doesn't really care what stock that absolute monarch comes from, as long as he's made and formed for what is required. Tywin was also a Machiavellist, but so tied to his own family name that he made fatal mistakes because of it. If Varys is a Blackfyre he becomes a Tywin imo. If Varys isn't a Blackfyre he becomes even a more staggering cold player than either Tywin (for family) or Littlefinger (for greed and himself). It makes him the ultimate puppet-master and therefore the most dangerous. I personally like that idea a lot, because even with Aegon defeated it makes him extremely dangerous. Only his death would stop him from trying again.

[OuttaOldtown]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Meh, nah. I don't see the point in Varys investing in a boy he has no blood tie to. If his motivation is being left out of what he perceives as his heritage ie: the IT. Then what is his motivation to place the child of a different Targ bastard branch on it?  I can see how you would be inclined to help, but he's not just helped out a bit on the principle that these two bastard branches have common cause. He's dedicated his entire life to it's aims, placing himself in a dangerous position at court where to be discovered is death. To risk your own life for a cause, you need a real tie to it. Not just being friends with the boys father.  I think he and Serra were siblings as it gives Varys some humanity, a real human reason to want the boy on the IT. I don't see Varys doing it just out of empathy for the Blackfyres. Varys isn't that altruistic. 

If Varys has no siblings can you think of a better candidate to be fAegon? I disagree that a blood tie is absolutely necessary..

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I don't see it, Varys is imo a Targaryen/Targaryan bastard. the clues are there, and as such he is tied to the IT through blood, But he can not sit it, as he can not provide an heir. fAegon is perfect, in that he combines the two bastard lines blood in serra & Illyrio, and has Vary's backing as his uncle, his wealthy fathers money and the GC of course.  

LF  is the one who wants absolute power and to smash the lords power. He goes about it by seeking to be the power behind the throne and manipulates people to get there. But he has no blood tie to it. He is the one smashing social boundaries to grasp ultimate power. 

Two unrelated men using the same motivations doesn't work. It is LF who doesn't care what stock the monarch comes from, only that he be the power behind them. 

I don't think Varys is a Blackfye, I think he is a Brightflame, either descended from Aerion's bastard line, or perhaps even true born. We only know Aerion married once he returned from Exile, but he could easily have wed first in Lys. And left his first wife and their child/children there. IMO that works better as it means he has truly got cause for a great sense of injustice. Especially if as Pain Killer Jeyne suggests that wife was a Rogare or saerra Targaryen descendant. In fact there is something totally stomach droppingly awful about the idea that Aerion wed a relative in Lys and then abandoned her. You could totally see Varys & Serra holding huge resentment over this and teaming up with the last of the Blackfyre's as a result in order to exact revenge.   There is a trail that hints at Varys being a Targ either true or not. And that trail leads to Lys.  

[MizasterJ]

GRRM tells us Dany was born 8-9 months after Jon. Isn't that suspicious 8-9 months is just about how long it takes to have a child.

If we assume that Jon was born very close to the time when Ned arrived at the TOJ, and not that Jon was already over a month old (Highly unlikely IMO)  then Ned goes to see Ashara and boom 8-9 months later Dany is born? coincidence?  AND we have reports of not only Ashara having a child but her suicide as well...awfully suspicious. the timing would be pretty on point.

The idea that the stillborn child and the suicide rumors are linked says to me that they happened around the same time ( Im guessing under a month in between events). Now granted we dont know when the stillbirth rumors started circulating or when the suicide report did, but..

The fact that barristan says "she looked to Stark." leads me to believe she was in love with Ned. The fact that Ned didnt stay long with her at Starfall points to her not being suicidal, as I seriously doubt would leave her, at least not so soon, if he felt she was feeling miserable. No I believe they made a plan that involved secretive child raising. The plan seemed to call for extreme discretion, thus we have Ashara faking her death. 

[Pain killer Jane]

2 hours ago, MizasterJ said:

GRRM tells us Dany was born 8-9 months after Jon. Isn't that suspicious 8-9 months is just about how long it takes to have a child.

Actually it is 10 months or 40 weeks. I know nitpicky but that is the official time span. 

[Pain killer Jane]

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Haha, yes you are correct, of course I was just going with my own gut feelings as a mother. 

I like that catch with the Longwaters story. You have some interesting ideas regarding Saerra & the rogares, Serenei etc.  Hmm, I dunno re Blackfyre. I kinda hold that it is probably with Illyrio. I think we need that big reveal, that Oh My God moment, when it is revealed and the reader knows that the Blackfyres are back. And I think the sword will be his downfall. The red flag that tells Dany he is not her nephew. 

Yeah I know about those gut feelings and I agree with you. It is so odd for me to try to understand why a mother would leave their child but that is the beauty of the spectrum of characters GRRM has created. 

I know and you are probably right about Blackfyre. I suspect a lot but can't prove it. 

 

[Pain killer Jane]

19 hours ago, Voice said:

Prince Lewyn had the paramour. But yes, if Ashara really did throw herself from a tower over Arthur, then I too would assume they were sleeping together. It's a really weird tale. Postpartum depression makes more sense, but coupled with the loss of the child's father, it would help me understand it a bit more.

Considering Jaime+Cersei and Targ incest, it isn't all that tin foil.

Thanks for the support.  

19 hours ago, Voice said:

I lean towards the idea that Ashara was the "stupid lady" in Dareon's song:

Now that you mention this and that Prince Lewyn was the one with a paramour. Lewyn was in the kingsguard and was present in Kingslanding during Ashara stay there and Selmy did say he had a paramour. And Lewyn was a Prince. 

Sounds like I am grasping at straws and trust me this is purely an exercise in speculation. 

But perhaps that's probably why Ashara is tied to these happenings. Two knights that were Princes died on the Trident, one in black armor and the other in white armor. Isn't Ashara supposed to have dark hair with purple eyes and Lyanna with dark hair and grey eyes? 

19 hours ago, Voice said:

...which would make sense if Ashara were Rhaegar's paramour. If you dig that sort of thing, you might like this theory.

I think Arthur sired Jon with Lyanna, but that is another theory.   Still, I do agree that Jaime is a good example, along with Arys Oakheart and Prince Lewyn, that Kingsguard knights were typically not celibate. And Barristan was only celibate because Ashara didn't look to him.

Thanks for the theories they were good reads. I like to read differing points of view. 

[Makk]

4 hours ago, MizasterJ said:

The fact that barristan says "she looked to Stark." leads me to believe she was in love with Ned. The fact that Ned didnt stay long with her at Starfall points to her not being suicidal, as I seriously doubt would leave her, at least not so soon, if he felt she was feeling miserable. No I believe they made a plan that involved secretive child raising. The plan seemed to call for extreme discretion, thus we have Ashara faking her death. 

I think the fact he didn't stay long in Starfall was more likely he had to get back to the North and it would have been incredible awkward.

I see something like this hypothetical situation. Ned has already told her months ago, by raven, that they can no longer be together, honour and duty has compelled him to wed Catelyn Tully. He turns up at Starfall to return Dawn, and although angry with him, she is excited to see him again. But he tells her of her brothers death which horrifies her. She then asks who this young child is and he lies saying it is his bastard and the mother is dead. She is extremely hurt because she tried to seduce Ned earlier and he told her to wait until they were wed. She now feels spurned not only by him wedding Catelyn (which she could at least understand), but for sleeping with some unknown camp follower (which she cannot understand). She tells him to begone and that they will never see each other again.After he leaves, with many of her closest friends and family dead, and her view of the man she loved in tatters, she throws herself from the tower in grief.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

5 hours ago, MizasterJ said:

GRRM tells us Dany was born 8-9 months after Jon. Isn't that suspicious 8-9 months is just about how long it takes to have a child.

Is it suspicious that Dany was born to Queen Rhaella just about 8-9 months after she was forced into having sex with her husband the Mad King?

Darn tootin' it is.

[Voice]

22 hours ago, teej6 said:

There's a huge flaw in your thinking of Arthur siring Jon with Lyanna, which is Ned's thoughts of Arthur being the finest knight. I doubt Ned would think so highly of Arthur if he had got Lyanna knocked up.

 

Is that a flaw?

As a man, and as a father, it sure makes sense to me. Do you have kids?

You're raising a child... his face looks like your own (and, like your beloved dead sister's).

The boy calls you Father. You name him Jon, after the man who took you to ward, and raised you.

Either you personally killed this boy's father . . . or, your best friend/foster-brother personally killed this boy's father.

Do you...

A.  not think about the boy's father for years at a time?
B.  speak of the boy's father as the finest knight you ever saw, and feel sad? 

Do you randomly find yourself remembering the boy's father, dispassionately?

Or, does the boy's father's face burn clearly in your dreams, even now, fourteen years later?

 

Think about it.

 

22 hours ago, teej6 said:

Also, why would Rhaegar take the fall for Arthur?

 

BFF's
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

 

 

Rhaegar and Arthur were besties.

 

22 hours ago, teej6 said:

So by your account Rhaegar is just whiling his time away while Arthur and Lyanna are romancing in the ToJ. Makes petfect sense. 

 

No. It isn't my account, actually. It isn't even my theory. It's @superunknown5's. I recommend reading it though. Even if you do not find it convincing, it adds much and more to the discussion. Here's the link.

But, at least we have text that places Arthur at the tower of joy . . . the same cannot be said of Rhaegar.

 

22 hours ago, teej6 said:

Or why would Arthur being Jon's dad be a secret that Ned needs to keep from Catelyn? Arthur being Jon's dad makes no sense from a narrative perspective or based on Ned's thoughts and actions. 

 

Why would Rhaegar being Jon's dad be a secret that Ned needs to keep from Catelyn?

I would argue that Rhaegar being Jon's dad is plausible, but Ned's thoughts and actions regarding Arthur seem more like what a man would have for his nephew's father. Ned thinks of Rhaegar only sporadically. And when he finds himself remembering Rhaegar, it seems rather nonchalant. That is strange if Ned is bearing the weight of raising the dead prince's child, isn't it?

[Voice]

7 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Thanks for the support.  

Anytime. I'll never understand why conversations like these can become so heated and dogmatic. In 1997, it would have sounded rather tin foil to suggest that LF and Lysa had poisoned Jon Arryn. The straightforward interp was that Cersei and Jaime poisoned him.

GRRM tends to make his mysteries a bit harder to figure out than that, and lo and behold, the obvious answer was not the right answer. This is how I view R+L=J, and the skepticism that surrounds the possibility that Arthur had fathered a child, or that Ashara's child might be alive and well and a main POV character.

The Sword of the Morning has been a vacant title for 17 years. Jon is 17 years old.

Dany looks like two people:  Rhaegar & Ashara.

We can dismiss speculation on such matters in favor of more obvious interpretations, but rarely does GRRM make such matters obvious.

 

7 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Now that you mention this and that Prince Lewyn was the one with a paramour. Lewyn was in the kingsguard and was present in Kingslanding during Ashara stay there and Selmy did say he had a paramour. And Lewyn was a Prince. 

Sounds like I am grasping at straws and trust me this is purely an exercise in speculation. 

But perhaps that's probably why Ashara is tied to these happenings. Two knights that were Princes died on the Trident, one in black armor and the other in white armor. Isn't Ashara supposed to have dark hair with purple eyes and Lyanna with dark hair and grey eyes? 

 

Great points!

There were indeed two princes that died at the Trident.

Prince Lewyn may well have been sleeping with Ashara, or even Lyanna. Might explain why book-Jon looks Dornish.

 

7 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Thanks for the theories they were good reads. I like to read differing points of view. 

 

  That's the spirit. An open mind cannot help but grow.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

12 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Actually it is 10 months or 40 weeks. I know nitpicky but that is the official time span. 

Not nit picking, it bugs me how people just round it down to try to prove Rhaella might not be her mother. I always want to say well a pregnancy actually lasts anywhere from 38-42 weeks sometimes 43 even.  So 8-9 months after the birth of Jon accounts for her having been in the first weeks of her pregnancy on her departure from KL.  

[J. Stargaryen]

On 7/17/2016 at 7:20 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

How about this shiny bit of tinfoil...

Ashara's was the paramour Ser Lewyn Martell. Wait! Don't throw tomatoes at me yet. Hear me out, and THEN dismiss the idea.  Ashara got pregnant with Lewyn's child and couldn't hide that fact, but couldn't name the father for obvious reasons. Ned not only brought news of her brother's death but also that her Ser Lewyn had been killed on the Trident. She couldn't marry anyone in Westeros because her reputation was shot and her side (Targ) lost the war; if she loved Lewyn she might have decided she would never love again; if she loved Ned he was lost to her anyway; so she faked her death and assumed a false identity. It is she Arianne refers to when she mentions that Ser Lewyn had a paramour who was a great beauty once. Now Ashara wouldn't be "old" by my standards, but Arianne is rather on the young side and I could easily see her thinking someone from the previous generation (especially one whose looks have perhaps been ravaged by the stress of tragedies endured throughout the period of the war) as old.

This has been my take for a couple of years now, inspired by the song Arya hears Dareon singing. And it was only strengthened by what was revealed in TWoIaF.

The Dornishmen who had come to court with the Princess Elia were in the prince’s confidence as well, particularly Prince Lewyn Martell, Elia’s uncle and a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard. - The Year of the False Spring

It makes it seem like Prince Lewyn spent a good deal of time with Rhaegar. Which means he would have been around Elia and her handmaidens as well. So, on top of all of the other evidence, they were also likely in close proximity at the time in question.

Barristan never says he knows who Lewyn's paramour is, so there is no reason to think he does. Also, I find it curious that GRRM has Barry thinking about Lewyn's paramour, and Ashara's lover. THEY TOTALLY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER YOU GUYS!

Imagine for a second that they were lovers while reading the passage below.

[Ashara] died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings.

Ouch, right? As bad as you might have felt for Ser Barristan when first reading that passage, about an old man lamenting past regrets. How bad do you feel now? How much more impact is added by the possibility/knowledge that Ashara was actually in love with a KG?

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 7/20/2016 at 6:47 PM, Voice said:

<snip

Just to add one more wrinkle to the discourse, I might also add that we do not know how old Jon was when Ned found him. A baby surely, but how old?

We know nothing, even with the 8-9 month age difference SSM.

This is another piece of conjecture but...

If Lyanna dead of "childbed fever" Jon could not have been more than two weeks old. Puerperal fever tends to strike quickly after childbirth, the most famous example I can recall at the moment being Jane Seymour who died within two weeks of Edward's birth.

If she died of some other kind of fever that changes things but we should remember that with the setting we have she wouldn't have lingered too long with that fever. I'd argue that a non-birth-related fever means she was giving birth or had just given birth while Ned and company were outside fighting, which makes Jon a deal younger.

The 8-9 months does give us something though, if GRRM wasn't being deliberately vague. As the known timeline stands currently, Dany was born exactly nine months after the siege of King's Landing. Still gives us a couple months' leeway because Ned had to learn where Lyanna was and get there, but it narrows things a bit for us. I guess that means we know slightly more than nothing.  

[OuttaOldtown]

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

This has been my take for a couple of years now, inspired by the song Arya hears Dareon singing. And it was only strengthened by what was revealed in TWoIaF.

The Dornishmen who had come to court with the Princess Elia were in the prince’s confidence as well, particularly Prince Lewyn Martell, Elia’s uncle and a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard. - The Year of the False Spring

It makes it seem like Prince Lewyn spent a good deal of time with Rhaegar. Which means he would have been around Elia and her handmaidens as well. So, on top of all of the other evidence, they were also likely in close proximity at the time in question.

Barristan never says he knows who Lewyn's paramour is, so there is no reason to think he does. Also, I find it curious that GRRM has Barry thinking about Lewyn's paramour, and Ashara's lover. THEY TOTALLY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER YOU GUYS!

Imagine for a second that they were lovers while reading the passage below.

[Ashara] died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings.

Ouch, right? As bad as you might have felt for Ser Barristan when first reading that passage, about an old man lamenting past regrets. How bad do you feel now? How much more impact is added by the possibility/knowledge that Ashara was actually in love with a KG?

 

But Selmy states that that she had not been at court long, I'll quote it:

Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided.

His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions

Also why not connect her to Lewyn instead of suggesting the connection to a Stark?

No good came from silence either.

If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark

[Lady Blizzardborn]

12 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

<snip

Also why not connect her to Lewyn instead of suggesting the connection to a Stark?

Why do people keep insisting that "looked to Stark" is supposed to indicate any kind of relationship? Why do so few ever consider the possibility that Barristan is talking about her looking to someone for help?

If she was "dishonored" by Lewyn Martell of the Kingsguard, she might have qualms about going straight to the Targaryens or any member of the KG for help. She might have decided she wanted a powerful family to back her up and sought out Brandon, Ned, or even Lyanna to see if any of them or their father would take her side if she decided to report Ser Lewyn. This is particularly possible with Ashara having been "not long at court" as you pointed out. You don't just go to the princess you barely know and say "hey your uncle in the KG seduced/whatever me."

If she was already involved with Lewyn by the time whatever happened at Harrenhal happened, and was dishonored by someone else entirely, she might have wanted to keep Lewyn from finding out who it was who bothered her. The Martells are rather passionate people, and she might have feared that Lewyn would hunt the guy down and kill him or worse. That would bring their affair to light and ruin both their reputations. 

[J. Stargaryen]

15 hours ago, Voice said:

Anytime. I'll never understand why conversations like these can become so heated and dogmatic. In 1997, it would have sounded rather tin foil to suggest that LF and Lysa had poisoned Jon Arryn. The straightforward interp was that Cersei and Jaime poisoned him.

GRRM tends to make his mysteries a bit harder to figure out than that, and lo and behold, the obvious answer was not the right answer. This is how I view R+L=J, and the skepticism that surrounds the possibility that Arthur had fathered a child, or that Ashara's child might be alive and well and a main POV character.

The red herrings in these mysteries are Ned is the father, and The Lannisters killed Jon Arryn. RLJ being obvious to lots of hardcore fans twenty years later does not equate it to the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn red herrings.

The obvious answer to Jon's parentage is N+X=J. First Ashara, then Wylla. Because that's what it says in the books. Just like the books claim that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn. First Cersei, then Tyrion. Notice how in both cases we're given contradictory information that should make us question what we're being told. Yet that info falls within the general parameters of the overall red herring.

15 hours ago, Voice said:

Prince Lewyn may well have been sleeping with Ashara, or even Lyanna. Might explain why book-Jon looks Dornish.

Book-Jon doesn't look Dornish though.

6 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

But Selmy states that that she had not been at court long, I'll quote it:

Rhaegar and Elia lived on Dragonstone. They probably didn't spend a lot of time at court, but we know they were there to present the king and queen with Rhaenys when she was born. It's probably fair to say that Elia wasn't "long at court," tbh.

6 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Also why not connect her to Lewyn instead of suggesting the connection to a Stark?

Because he didn't know that Lewyn was her lover, as I said in my post. Barristan says he knew Lewyn had a paramour, but he never says who.

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Just want to point out, in case it's not clear, that we have two Dornish characters with secret lovers, who likely would have been around each other a good deal. Lewyn became close with Rhaegar, who lived on Dragonstone with Elia and her handmaidens, of which Ashara Dayne was one.

[OuttaOldtown]

3 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Why do people keep insisting that "turned to Stark" is supposed to indicate any kind of relationship? Why do so few ever consider the possibility that Barristan is talking about her turning to someone for help?

If she was "dishonored" by Lewyn Martell of the Kingsguard, she might have qualms about going straight to the Targaryens or any member of the KG for help. She might have decided she wanted a powerful family to back her up and sought out Brandon, Ned, or even Lyanna to see if any of them or their father would take her side if she decided to report Ser Lewyn. This is particularly possible with Ashara having been "not long at court" as you pointed out. You don't just go to the princess you barely know and say "hey your uncle in the KG seduced/whatever me."

If she was already involved with Lewyn by the time whatever happened at Harrenhal happened, and was dishonored by someone else entirely, she might have wanted to keep Lewyn from finding out who it was who bothered her. The Martells are rather passionate people, and she might have feared that Lewyn would hunt the guy down and kill him or worse. That would bring their affair to light and ruin both their reputations. 

 

1 minute ago, J. Stargaryen said:

The red herrings in these mysteries are Ned is the father, and The Lannisters killed Jon Arryn. RLJ being obvious to lots of hardcore fans twenty years later does not equate it to the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn red herrings.

The obvious answer to Jon's parentage is N+X=J. First Ashara, then Wylla. Because that's what it says in the books. Just like the books claim that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn. First Cersei, then Tyrion. Notice how in both cases we're given contradictory information that should make us question what we're being told. Yet that info falls within the general parameters of the overall red herring.

Book-Jon doesn't look Dornish though.

Rhaegar and Elia lived on Dragonstone. They probably didn't spend a lot of time at court, but we know they were there to present the king and queen with Rhaenys when she was born. It's probably fair to say that Elia wasn't "long at court," tbh.

Because he didn't know that Lewyn was her lover, as I said in my post. Barristan says he knew Lewyn had a paramour, but he never says who.

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Just want to point out, in case it's not clear, that we have two Dornish characters with secret lovers, who likely would have been around each other a good deal. Lewyn became close with Rhaegar, who lived on Dragonstone with Elia and her handmaidens, of which Ashara Dayne was one.

I find it unlikely since Arianne seems to know her, the whole conversation with Arys seems to be suggesting that she was his Paramour for a long period of time and remained with the Martells after he died. Given that he is Doran's uncle I think its safe to bet he was in KG long before Ashara was even born...