Ashara & the mysteries of the Royal Children, explained

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

8 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

 

How do you know?

Kind of like how Jon's aunt Dany is 15-20 years older than he is?

For a certainty? Because I'm in my mid-30s, and based on my peers I can tell you that is not always the case. Not nearly. Having good bone structure, or nice features, does not stop the clock.

---

Listen, I agree that the line from Arianne would seem to make Ashara an unlikely candidate. I've always said so. But there's a decent amount of circumstantial evidence suggesting L+A. Briefly:

They're both Dornish characters with secret lovers. A fact which is mentioned on multiple occasions, in both cases. In ASoS, Arya has a long conversation about Ashara with Edric. Then in AFfC, she hears Dareon singing about a woman throwing herself from a tower because her prince had died. Now, there are two women in the series who supposedly threw themselves from towers; Bael's Stark girl, and Ashara. Well, Bael was no prince, but two princes did die on the Trident, which is shortly before Ashara was said to have jumped from the Palestone Tower.

In ADwD, Barristan thinks about both Lewyn and Ashara. How the former had a paramour, and how he loved the latter. But no good could come of that, because he was a KG. There is great potential for irony here.

In TWoIaF it says that Lewyn came to court with Elia, who would have been accompanied by her handmaidens. So, two Dornish characters, who both had secret lovers arrive at court at the same time. Lewyn becomes one of Rhaegar's most trusted allies, meaning he probably would have spent a good deal of time at Dragonstone, where Elia and her handmaidens lived. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if Lewyn was assigned to Elia as part of the marriage pact. Seems reasonable, right?

Well, if Lewyn became a KG at the same time as he came to court with Elia, and he had a paramour while he was a KG... do I need to spell it out? Two Dornish characters with secret lovers who were in the same place at the same time.

Again, I say the line from Arianne is not a great fit for Ashara. Especially at first blush. But there's a good circumstantial case to be made for L+A, so maybe that line is not as straightforward as it appears. Would that be such a huge shock coming from an author who has repeatedly tried to deceive us?

I'd say it is implied that Lewyn was an older man at the time of his death. And by that I mean 50+  I very much doubt he was significantly younger than his sister.  We are not given any information which implies this may be the case, not in the main series or the world book. IF we were told Doran's grandparent had been twice married. Or had had fertility issues such as Aerys & Rhaella's were a huge age gap would make sense I would consider this a probability. But are not. 

This quote leaves Lewyn off the list of "younger men" at court. 

Quote

 Prince Rhaegar's support came from the younger men at court, including Lord Jon Connington, Ser Myles Mooton of Maidenpool, and Ser Richard Lonmouth. The Dornishmen who had come to court with the Princess Elia were in the prince's confidence as well, particularly Prince Lewyn Martell, Elia's uncle and a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard. 

Barristan I think would have known who Lewyn's lover was, 

Quote

"Prince Lewyn was my Sworn Brother. In those days there were few secrets amongst the Kingsguard. I know he kept a paramour. He did not feel there was any shame in that."

Barristan is telling us that in there were few secrets between the sworn brothers. So her identity was likely known to him. 

And here another quote which implies Barristan and Lewyn were close. 

Quote

I swore no oath to Dorne, Ser Barristan told himself. But Lewyn Martell had been his Sworn Brother, back in the days when the bonds between the Kingsguard still went deep. I could not help Prince Lewyn on the Trident, but I can help his nephew now. 

He's telling us his bonds with Lewyn ran deep, and that loyalty and love for his brother in arms, now cause him to feel obligated to help Quentyn.  So I'd guess the man kept his secret and likely knew who she was. 

As to whether a woman in her 30's who was one of the most stunningly beautiful women of her age would still be beautiful. Of course! My god you'd have to have had a bloody rough life to loose your looks enough to fit Arrianne's assessment.  I mean seriously I know former skag heads that still look pretty in their mid 30's.  Arrianne's statement regarding Lewyn's former paramour implies the woman is old. 

Just stating that two people come from dorne and went to KL at the same time and both had secret lovers could indeed give rise to suspicion on the readers part as to if they were lovers. But in text evidence implies otherwise. To me what is in the actual text is far more important that what might be supposed from some un fleshed out facts such as both from dorne, both had lovers. 

Ashara was likely very much younger than Lewyn. Does not rule out that they would be lovers but makes it less likely

It is implied her lover was a Stark (this is the biggy) 

Barristan likely knows both who Lewyn's paramour was and who got Ashara pregnant.  And his opinion of Lewyn does not match up to what we would expect had he been the father of Ashara's child. 

We are privy to some intimate discussion by members of House Martell concerning their family history and no where does it imply Ashara was Lewyn's paramour.

Think about Arrianne's contemplation that she and Gerold Dayne would have beautiful children. If there had been a Martell-Dayne child borne in the near past, wouldn't she recall that child? And her supposed death. And wonder if her baby with Darkstar might grow to look like that lost infant would have?

The absence of evidence to back up this theory to me outweighs by far the idea that well They might have been lovers because they were in the same place.  If you are going to say that you may as well put forth a theory that her child's father was some un-named house guard at Dragonstone whom no one has ever mentioned in the text. Because well, it might have been.

[Ygrain]

I used to consider Ashara as Lewyn's paramour quite intriguing, but as I've been re-thinking it, I don't think this was the case, because of the way Barristan thinks about the HH incident:

His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that all maidens are virgins as they are supposed to, but I don't think he would use the word if Ashara was someone's paramour.

Also, "not long at court" - Ashara was Elia's lady-in-waiting, at Elia normally stayed at DS. Correct me if I am wrong, but it was Dayne and Whent that were normally assigned to Rhaegar, so Lewyn Martell would be staying at KL, right?

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.

If Ashara was Lewyn's paramour, it would be very strange to speak about her dishonour like that - the way Barristan phrases it seems to imply a one-time event (at least to Barristan's knowledge). It would make sense if there was another man who Ashara had an affair with at HH - but that would make her unfaithful to Lewyn and even further contrasting with the use of "maiden". 

I believe that Ashara's arc is connected to the fire vs. mud musings, which is further repeated in the Arianne sample chapter and which has nothing to do with Lewyn Martell.

[OuttaOldtown]

12 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

It's one thing to have an open mind.  But there are too many theories based on nothing at all in the text and wishful thinking by the readers.  I can waste time reading them, note the lack of evidence and move on, but I'm not obliged to acknowledge they are valid theories just because somebody else wants them to be true.

This! I have an open mind when it comes to any well presented & thought-out ideas which can be presented with proof from the text. The ones which lack real evidence come off as written monologue based on the readers imagination, connecting dots when they can't even prove the dots exist. 

 

11 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

 

How do you know?

Kind of like how Jon's aunt Dany is 15-20 years older than he is?

For a certainty? Because I'm in my mid-30s, and based on my peers I can tell you that is not always the case. Not nearly. Having good bone structure, or nice features, does not stop the clock.

---

Listen, I agree that the line from Arianne would seem to make Ashara an unlikely candidate. I've always said so. But there's a decent amount of circumstantial evidence suggesting L+A. Briefly:

They're both Dornish characters with secret lovers. A fact which is mentioned on multiple occasions, in both cases. In ASoS, Arya has a long conversation about Ashara with Edric. Then in AFfC, she hears Dareon singing about a woman throwing herself from a tower because her prince had died. Now, there are two women in the series who supposedly threw themselves from towers; Bael's Stark girl, and Ashara. Well, Bael was no prince, but two princes did die on the Trident, which is shortly before Ashara was said to have jumped from the Palestone Tower.

In ADwD, Barristan thinks about both Lewyn and Ashara. How the former had a paramour, and how he loved the latter. But no good could come of that, because he was a KG. There is great potential for irony here.

In TWoIaF it says that Lewyn came to court with Elia, who would have been accompanied by her handmaidens. So, two Dornish characters, who both had secret lovers arrive at court at the same time. Lewyn becomes one of Rhaegar's most trusted allies, meaning he probably would have spent a good deal of time at Dragonstone, where Elia and her handmaidens lived. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if Lewyn was assigned to Elia as part of the marriage pact. Seems reasonable, right?

Well, if Lewyn became a KG at the same time as he came to court with Elia, and he had a paramour while he was a KG... do I need to spell it out? Two Dornish characters with secret lovers who were in the same place at the same time.

 

I don't know, no one does at this time. It just seems like a bit of a stretch to call a woman of that age old, older, ok, but old in this story has tended to mean what it is. 

[J. Stargaryen]

19 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I used to consider Ashara as Lewyn's paramour quite intriguing, but as I've been re-thinking it, I don't think this was the case, because of the way Barristan thinks about the HH incident:

His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that all maidens are virgins as they are supposed to, but I don't think he would use the word if Ashara was someone's paramour.

I don't know if you've read anything I've written or not, but a key idea is that Barristan wouldn't have known Lewyn and Ashara were lovers.

19 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Also, "not long at court" - Ashara was Elia's lady-in-waiting, at Elia normally stayed at DS. Correct me if I am wrong, but it was Dayne and Whent that were normally assigned to Rhaegar, so Lewyn Martell would be staying at KL, right?

None of this precludes Lewyn from being assigned to Elia. In fact, if Lewyn became a KG as part of the marriage pact for R&E, it's not unreasonable to think that his being assigned to her was also a part of the deal.

19 hours ago, Ygrain said:

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.

If Ashara was Lewyn's paramour, it would be very strange to speak about her dishonour like that - the way Barristan phrases it seems to imply a one-time event (at least to Barristan's knowledge). It would make sense if there was another man who Ashara had an affair with at HH - but that would make her unfaithful to Lewyn and even further contrasting with the use of "maiden". 

I believe that Ashara's arc is connected to the fire vs. mud musings, which is further repeated in the Arianne sample chapter and which has nothing to do with Lewyn Martell.

I really don't know about the Stark/HH stuff. The only thing that is clear to me about it is that GRRM is not very forthcoming with the details. I mean, was she dishonored by a Stark and then turned to them, or dishonored by someone else? If so, why did she turn to the Starks?

20 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'd say it is implied that Lewyn was an older man at the time of his death. And by that I mean 50+  I very much doubt he was significantly younger than his sister.  We are not given any information which implies this may be the case, not in the main series or the world book. IF we were told Doran's grandparent had been twice married. Or had had fertility issues such as Aerys & Rhaella's were a huge age gap would make sense I would consider this a probability. But are not. 

This quote leaves Lewyn off the list of "younger men" at court.

Where is it implied? Because that reads to me like wishful thinking.

20 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Barristan I think would have known who Lewyn's lover was, 

Barristan is telling us that in there were few secrets between the sworn brothers. So her identity was likely known to him. 

And here another quote which implies Barristan and Lewyn were close. 

He's telling us his bonds with Lewyn ran deep, and that loyalty and love for his brother in arms, now cause him to feel obligated to help Quentyn.  So I'd guess the man kept his secret and likely knew who she was.

Well, if that's the case he never says so. And why not? Do you think maybe it's possible that it's because GRRM meant for it to be a secret, or dare I say, a mystery?

20 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

As to whether a woman in her 30's who was one of the most stunningly beautiful women of her age would still be beautiful. Of course! My god you'd have to have had a bloody rough life to loose your looks enough to fit Arrianne's assessment.  I mean seriously I know former skag heads that still look pretty in their mid 30's.  Arrianne's statement regarding Lewyn's former paramour implies the woman is old.

Not sure how you'd describe it, but I'd say Ashara did have a pretty tragic life.

20 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Just stating that two people come from dorne and went to KL at the same time and both had secret lovers could indeed give rise to suspicion on the readers part as to if they were lovers. But in text evidence implies otherwise. To me what is in the actual text is far more important that what might be supposed from some un fleshed out facts such as both from dorne, both had lovers. 

Ashara was likely very much younger than Lewyn. Does not rule out that they would be lovers but makes it less likely

It is implied her lover was a Stark (this is the biggy) 

Barristan likely knows both who Lewyn's paramour was and who got Ashara pregnant.  And his opinion of Lewyn does not match up to what we would expect had he been the father of Ashara's child.

I like how in one paragraph you say that what's in the text is more important to you than speculation, but then speculate that Selmy knew who Lewyn's lover was, when the text never says that.

20 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

We are privy to some intimate discussion by members of House Martell concerning their family history and no where does it imply Ashara was Lewyn's paramour.

The lover's identity is not implied anywhere. Do you not realize that this argument works just as well against any L+X theory?

20 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Think about Arrianne's contemplation that she and Gerold Dayne would have beautiful children. If there had been a Martell-Dayne child borne in the near past, wouldn't she recall that child? And her supposed death. And wonder if her baby with Darkstar might grow to look like that lost infant would have?

Maybe for the same reason Ned never thinks about Lyanna being Jon's mom?

20 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

The absence of evidence to back up this theory to me outweighs by far the idea that well They might have been lovers because they were in the same place.

If you are going to say that you may as well put forth a theory that her child's father was some un-named house guard at Dragonstone whom no one has ever mentioned in the text. Because well, it might have been.

Uh, there's nothing wrong with saying that something might be possible, based on gaps in our knowledge. I've said that the Arianne line might not be as straight forward as it appears. Which doesn't seem unreasonable for ASoIaF. A series in which Ned seemingly replies to Robert that Wylla is Jon's mother, for example.

Yeah, because that's totally the same thing. For the record, I came up with L+A prior to TWoIaF's release. So, I already felt there was a case before I found out that they probably came to court together.

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I don't know if you've read anything I've written or not, but a key idea is that Barristan wouldn't have known Lewyn and Ashara were lovers.

Ah, I see, I missed that. But then your theory hinges on Barristan not knowing, because if he does, the paramour is definitely not Ashara because the way he thinks about her doesn't fit with her being anyone's paramour.

 

[J. Stargaryen]

43 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Ah, I see, I missed that. But then your theory hinges on Barristan not knowing, because if he does, the paramour is definitely not Ashara because the way he thinks about her doesn't fit with her being anyone's paramour.

Obviously. Part of the reason I think L+A could work is that GRRM might be setting up a potentially ironic situation with Barristan, who thinks that no good could have come from telling Ashara his feelings because he was a KG. Well, what if she were actually in love with a KG? Ouch, right? I don't know if he's meant to find out or not, but as an audience member you'd have to feel for him a bit.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

3 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Where is it implied? Because that reads to me like wishful thinking.

Well, if that's the case he never says so. And why not? Do you think maybe it's possible that it's because GRRM meant for it to be a secret, or dare I say, a mystery?

Not sure how you'd describe it, but I'd say Ashara did have a pretty tragic life.

I like how in one paragraph you say that what's in the text is more important to you than speculation, but then speculate that Selmy knew who Lewyn's lover was, when the text never says that.

The lover's identity is not implied anywhere. Do you not realize that this argument works just as well against any L+X theory?

Maybe for the same reason Ned never thinks about Lyanna being Jon's mom?

Uh, there's nothing wrong with saying that something might be possible, based on gaps in our knowledge. I've said that the Arianne line might not be as straight forward as it appears. Which doesn't seem unreasonable for ASoIaF. A series in which Ned seemingly replies to Robert that Wylla is Jon's mother, for example.

Yeah, because that's totally the same thing. For the record, I came up with L+A prior to TWoIaF's release. So, I already felt there was a case before I found out that they probably came to court together.

I'd say it is implied by the fact Doran is 52 and is Lewyn's sisters son. As I said with no implication at all that lewyn was decades younger than his sister we have no reason to think he was. I'd argue that saying Lewyn might have been decades younger than his sibling without any evidence to that sounds like wishful thinking. 

I'm not even sure as to what you are trying to say in the next part. The quotes I gave imply he knew both who Ashara's baby daddy was, and who Lewyn's paramour was. He's telling us that they were incredibly close. Of course he doesn't say who each was, both Ashara's baby daddy and Lewyn's paramour's identities are mysteries. Ashara's lover is implied to be a Stark, and the less astute reader thinks this is more evidence of her and Ned having been lovers, and the more astute realises Barristan's feelings about Ned do not chime with him having been the man who despoiled Ashara. 

As to him knowing who Lewyn's lover was, yes, it is implied he knows, he's literally telling us he kept his secrets. He also says Lewyn kept a paramour, which implies she was kept by him, as in he supported and housed her and paid her visits whenever he could discreetly do so. Which is an idea in line with what Arrianne tells us, because her chapter implies the woman is known to the Martell family and she has met her. From which it can be ascertained they supported her after his death.

And it would seem from what happens with Ellaria Sand that this would have been the case. Ellaria has no means to support herself and her daughters, as the unofficial partner to the brother of the Prince of Dorne she has no official title or role.  Yet after Oberyn's death in KL she is allowed to live at the Dornish court and her daughters are afforded every liberty and privilege they can be as bastard children of a Dornish prince.  Which all rather implies that Lewyn's unofficial partner would also have received such grace & favour. 

There is having a tragic life and then there is fucking yourself up so badly that in just 15 years you've lost your looks so much that you look rough as sticks. To be that ravaged that Arrianne can't see that she was once a great beauty she'd have had to be caneing the milk of the poppy like there was no tomorrow. Smoking her head off,chewing sourleaf by the barrel load, whilst laying in the sun permenantly with no scarf or shade. Have eaten herself to the size of Lord Manderly and possibly have gotten into self harm.  Seriously women of that age who were stunning don't just loose their looks by their mid thirties. This is a pointless argument. Tragic life sure, but not so tragic given the times they were living in, many ladies would expect to experience widowhood several times, and loose maybe even a dozen children over their lifetimes. Rhaella was still beautiful when she died, and she'd been through enough heartbreak and abuse to destroy most people. 

What you've missed though is that that speculation is made based on the text as opposed to based on the lack of anything to tell us directly otherwise. 

No it does not, because the only L+X theory that has textual evidence is L+R and it is a theory which stands up because it has evidence in the text. Her lovers identity is implied in the text all over the place, that is why it is such a well supported theory, There is nothing to support Lewyn & Ashara from the text other than them being in the same place at the same time. 

Arrianne has no reason to not contemplate it. She isn't hiding some great secret, isn't living a lie trying to cover up the fact her child is in fact that child, and directly day dreams about what her child with a Dayne might look like.  Of course I could be wrong and the reason she doesn't think about it could be some great plot point. But I'd say that chances are much higher, given the distinct lack of evidence. That she doesn't think about it because Lewyn & Ashara never so much as kissed, let alone had a child together. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

15 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Obviously. Part of the reason I think L+A could work is that GRRM might be setting up a potentially ironic situation with Barristan, who thinks that no good could have come from telling Ashara his feelings because he was a KG. Well, what if she were actually in love with a KG? Ouch, right? I don't know if he's meant to find out or not, but as an audience member you'd have to feel for him a bit.

 You've missed the point about why Barristan thinks No good could come of it. This isn't about Ashara and her potential to accept a KG as her lover. This is about Barristan and what he believes is the morally correct thing to do in life. He is telling us that he personally does not feel taking a high born maid as his lover whom he could never marry due to his vows, would be the correct thing to do.

 No good would come of it. ie: they could not wed. He is conflicted between his guilt; that had he declared his feelings she may not have turned to Stark.0 And the fact that had he declared his feelings he would still have been just as impotent in preventing her dishonour.

He as a KG could not have offered for her hand, and thus was unable to prevent the scandal of her pregnancy.  He only hopes that she may have looked to him instead, because Barristan knows he'd not have taken her maidenhead before giving her a cloak, but he also knows that as a KG he was unable to do so. 

It seems to be saying far more about what Barristan thinks in regards to having sex with a woman whom you can not marry than it is about what Ashara as a woman would have been happy to do.  

In this thought process Barristan is discarding entirely Ashara as a person who can make autonomous choices. He's placing all the blame for her pregnancy on the man, and this is very much in line with our own thinking about young women and sex. That it is something done to them by a man, as opposed to something done in unison, we talk in terms of young women being cajoled and persuaded into sex. And see the male as always being the instigator. Barristan isn't even contemplating that Ashara may have been up for it. He's assuming that had he been the one she looked to, by nature of him having declared his feelings for her (again this is in line with the notion that women can't chase men, that we just wait modestly for a man to declare his feelings for us and either respond or not.) she may not have ended up being made pregnant by this man. 

But Barristan knows deep down she chose the other guy and chose to have sex outside of wedlock, because we get his Fire V's Mud theory. The man Ashara chose was Fire to his mud. Barristan feels regret, remorse, and guilt over Ashara. And as his idealised women he's placing the blame on the man involved. This creates conflict in him, because deep down he knows she wasn't coerced. 

 

If anything this idealisation of what a man ought and ought not do when faced with a maiden whom he desires, reflects on Rhaegar, whom we know Barristan views as having been an honourable man, but whom we suspect got Lyanna pregnant. I think it adds yet more weight to the idea that Rhaegar had in fact married Lyanna.  Also reflected in the way Barristan refers to Rhaegar as having loved HIS lady Lyanna. Implying ownership ie: a wife. 

[finger]

The question of fAegon being Ashara's son has been arisen. Septa Lemore is not Ashara, imo, but it still could be.

1. Ahsara at HH

It's stated that Ashara danced with BS, Brandon Stark, Ned and Oberyn. Then she was dishonored and "looked to Stark",whatever those means and not necessarily in this same order. BS knows who the man involved was and he's reluctant to talk about it (why?)

Suppose some common knight raped Ashara. What could have happened to him?

If BS, who was in love with Ashara, had known of the raping, and had found him, he'd kill him, unless...

She looked to Stark before he knew, and hot-tempered Brandon went off and killed the man, unless...

Lewin Martell, learning that one of his sister's ladies in waiting had been raped, found the man before, and killed him, unless...

Prince Rhaegar, for the same reason, found him before, or was around and it was him who killed the wretched, unless...

Arthur Dayne was the quickest or it was decided that he had the best claim to kill his sister's rapist, unless...

The rapist was King Aerys. It's known he was aroused with weird things, like burning people. That KOTLT thing might have had the same effect. After all, the asshole was quite mad.

2. Ashara's baby

Dishonor is an ambiguous concept, but it's thought it means raping because she got pregnant. The details are unknown, it could be a son or a daughter, stillborn or dead. It's pretty clear that those who knew did their best to conceal the story, and they did it just fine.

Ashara probably went with Elia to KL, where they both gave birth with little difference. Rhaegar's family were Mad Aerys' hostages, but he might have agreed to send his own son with his mother to Starfall. Remember some Gilly? The mothers swapped the babies (I could elaborate more), and Hightower (Sam) was sent to escort them, and summon Rhaegar. When Hightower (Sam) discovered the baby was Aegon (Mance's son, from royal blood) he thought it was his duty to guard the second heir. (Bwt, Sam fled in the company of a Targaryen.)

3. Second swap

Varys tells Aegon was swapped for some pisswater boy who got killed in his stead. If Varys did it, he sure sent the boy to Illyrio, where else? He did the same with Tyrion. Did he know it was Ashara's son? I don't think so.

And that's how Varys raised Aery's highbastard to claim his father's crown. He could take after his brother Rhaegar, or may be Viserys, his aunt Rhaella, his uncle Arthur, or even his father, who knows? It'd funnier if the boy's real name were Daeron.

4. Ashara's death

She's said to have thrown herself from a tower to the sea. Very proper so that the corpse cannot be found.

Actually, she might have descended from some Starfall tower to a boat on the sea, to flee east with Aegon, to Asshai by the Shadow, as Mormont proposed long time after, under different circumstances, to a different Targaryen. We'll eventually know, specially if Grrm finds in himself whatever he needs to end up writing the series.

Enjoy

 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Why are people so obsessed with Ashara being raped?

[OuttaOldtown]

Why would she feel the need to fake a suicide in order to head east to Essos? 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

14 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Why are people so obsessed with Ashara being raped?

Exactly. Being dishonored for a woman in Medieval ethic included being envolved with a man who's not this woman's husmand or betrothed. So that is what we know: Ashara became envolved with some man, got pregnant and it became known. Aparently she couldn't marry this guy for some reason: he was rather married/promised or he made an oath (f.e. KG).

[Maester Crypt]

Didn't Lewyn become KG as a part of the Rhaegar/Elia marriage? If so, wouldn't his paramour had been someone he brought to KL with him, someone he had known before he was in the KG?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

3 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Exactly. Being dishonored for a woman in Medieval ethic included being envolved with a man who's not this woman's husmand or betrothed. So that is what we know: Ashara became envolved with some man, got pregnant and it became known. Aparently she couldn't marry this guy for some reason: he was rather married/promised or he made an oath (f.e. KG).

Exactly! the dishonour is simply having pre-marital sex. And given that Barristan feels he may have prevented the tragedy of her pregnancy and subsequent suicide, had he only revealed his feelings for her. I'd say that points away from rape and into a consensual encounter. He's thinking if only I had been able to distract her from this dishonourable man with my own suit she may not have fallen.  Except that, he knows he could do no such thing, as he was of the Kings Guard and sworn not to take a wife. We know he would not have simply had her as a lover, because he says Lewyn had a lover and he saw no shame in that. Implying that whilst barristan and his brothers kept the Prince of Dorne's secrets they or at least he never really approved. And when contemplating what might have been had he won the tourney and named Ashara QoL&B. He admits No good could come of that, ie: he knows he would not have been able to give Ashara what she wanted. He would not have made love to her because of his views. He could not marry her because of his vows. 

This obsession with rape is nothing more than a way to make completely implausible men her child's father. Nothing in Barristan's recollections imply she was raped.  And I think also we have to take Cersei into account. Cersei was at court at the time and she seems to refer to Ashara as though she knew the woman. 

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Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

She refers to her as The Lady Ashara, where I note Catelyn who had never met her always refers to her by her full name, the only people who refer to her just by her first name are those who knew her or were family. I think by referring to her by her first name only Cersei implies they were acquainted. And it stands to reason that they would be. If Ashara had been raped it would have been the gossip around the Red Keep. And Cersei would be privy to that gossip. She definitely doesn't imply to Ned in this quote that she thinks he might have been responsible for raping Ashara. But she was clearly privy to the gossip that Ashara had had a baby out of wedlock, and the father might have been Eddard Stark. And given that she is besmirching Ned's so called honour here; if she'd heard even a hint at him being a rapist she'd be throwing that at him. 

Nor does any single character at any point ever hint that Ashara was raped.  Throwing it round as an explanation for whatever unsupported theory people have is just proof that they have pulled the idea out of their arse. 

[maudisdottir]

^Thank you, it bothers me whenever someone starts a theory with dishonoured=definitely raped.  Obviously they've never read any Jane Austen.

I'm a bit slow on the uptake and didn't pick R+L=J until I'd seen 3 seasons and read 3.5 books, and only then because I saw it online.  But reading about HH it seemed really obvious to me that Ned was too shy for Ashara and bad-boy Brandon was the one she "looked to".  It's that old story of the hot guy who plays wingman and ends up with the girl himself.  I've seen people argue that Brandon wouldn't do that to his own brother, but he totally would.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Oh, he would. lol. I think Lady Dustin's description of Brandon tells us everything we need to know of the man. 

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He would hate that." She pulled off her glove and touched his knee, pale flesh against dark stone. "Brandon loved his sword. He loved to hone it. 'I want it sharp enough to shave the hair from a woman's cunt,' he used to say. And how he loved to use it. 'A bloody sword is a beautiful thing,' he told me once."

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My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain.

And when Jaime and Catelyn discuss him, Jaime tells her Brandon was more like him, with Blood in his veins instead of cold water (he's implying Ned had this) 

Cat denies Brandon was anything like Jaime, but I think they both know the truth here. There is a lot of sexual tension in this scene with Jaime. With him telling her when he was brought to Riverrun to meet Lysa as a potential wife, he much preferred Catelyn. And him comparing himself to her former fiance. Whom She herself reflects later she was more sexually attracted to than Ned. 

All rather implies Brandon was a sexy man, who liked the women and was very able to charm them. On every recollection of him Cat comes across as having been very much delighted with the match, and not just because of his position as heir to the north. She remembers him as being charming, funny, and gallant. Much more liable to be rash,and act on instinct& passions than Ned was. In fact the description she gives of her and Neds first intercourse sounds very much like a man loosing his virginity who really doesn't have much idea as to what he's doing at all and feels rather awkward. 

 

 

[Maester Crypt]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 In fact the description she gives of her and Neds first intercourse sounds very much like a man loosing his virginity who really doesn't have much idea as to what he's doing at all and feels rather awkward. 

 

 

I read it as a man who had no love for this woman, whom he just met and was forced to marry so he could get her fathers men to fight in a war. He was just doing what duty required as a husband. She certainly looks favourably upon his skills after Robertès feast in WF, then again 15yrs have past and love is strong in their relationship.  

[maudisdottir]

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If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

Barristan wished he'd been the hero who beats Rhaegar, stopping him from choosing Lyanna and avoiding all the tragedy that came after.  But he also wanted to catch Ashara's eye with a grand romantic gesture, which would have swept her off her feet so she wouldn't look to Stark (thereby avoiding her own tragedy).

Why would Barristan feel he needed to do something so dramatic if his competition was the Shy Wolf?  If Ned didn't have to unhorse Rhaegar to win Ashara's love, why would Barry feel that's what he needed to do?

Maybe because it was hotshot Brandon he was competing with, not dull Ned.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

17 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

But reading about HH it seemed really obvious to me that Ned was too shy for Ashara and bad-boy Brandon was the one she "looked to".  It's that old story of the hot guy who plays wingman and ends up with the girl himself.  I've seen people argue that Brandon wouldn't do that to his own brother, but he totally would.

I think everything points on Brandon Stark. He asked the most popular girl in the room to dance with his shy brother, but fell for the girl himself. Earlier Brandon slept with Lady Dustin. So Ashara wasn't the first noble girl whom Brandon "dishonored". Apparently Lady Dustin's affair mit Brandon didn't become known, while the affair with Ashara did, because she got pregnant. Brandon couldn't marry her, because he was promised to Cat.

In this case even Ashara's suicide seems plausible: she lost her lover, her child and her brother.

[finger]

Brandon is all but discarded. The information received by Arya while with the BwB confirms that there was something between Ned and Ashara at HH. People from WF knew about it and that must be the source of the rumor on Jon's mother. They must have thought that if Ned came from Starfall with a son, it has to be Ashara's. Not a word of Brandon. He was acting as a lord-to-be, before his king, in the Riverlands, where his bethroted's father was Lord Paramount. He could have hot blood, but it's never stated that he was completely stupid; he was looking for a convenient match for his brother, and the sister of the Crown Prince's closest friend was such a good match.

Nor was Ned, either. If he had dishonored Ashara, he'd had married her on the spot, as his son Robb did years after, at a great cost. After all, she was good match, as I told.

Finally, BS's reluctancy to talk about it is most telling. He doesn't say the bloody slut laid half a dozen knights and their squires, as a resentful man could. He admits ruefully that she was dishonored and refuses to give details. It's his attitude that hints rape.

The raping can't be told for sure, but one thing is certain, it there was a raping, the rapist was Aerys, and this also fits BS's reluctancy.