Ashara & the mysteries of the Royal Children, explained

[tugela]

On ‎7‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 9:13 PM, Voice said:

 

No. It isn't my account, actually. It isn't even my theory. It's @superunknown5's. I recommend reading it though. Even if you do not find it convincing, it adds much and more to the discussion. Here's the link.

But, at least we have text that places Arthur at the tower of joy . . . the same cannot be said of Rhaegar.

 

We also have text showing the Kingsguard were there because they were supposed to be there. They were not MIA, they were performing their duty.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 hours ago, tugela said:

The most obvious place for her to have gone would be the tower of joy, since it was in Dorne, not far away, and her brother was there. She was probably impregnated by Rhaegar there as well.

She didn't know where her brother was, and nobody except Arthur, Oswell, and Gerald knew where Rhaegar was. 

The "tower of joy" was a rundown old what's-left-of-a-castle. If Ashara was making visits during the war that is not one of the places she would have thought to go, if she even knew of its existence. 

What is the distance between the ToJ and Starfall anyway? Do we know this?

4 hours ago, tugela said:

Silver hair and purple eyes are albino traits that result from a lack of melanin, and the Valyrians and other people who have these characteristics are albinos. The Daynes are not albino though, which means that their purple eyes have to come from a unique genetic makeup that is not human. They are not like other people, they are alien. Which is kind of weird when you consider their whole starfall origin story.

No, they are not. The Valyrians have magic tied into their blood. See the author's statements about that. Or maybe just recall that this is a fantasy series that has blood magic.

Albinos do not have purple eyes. They have red or pink ones. Albinos also have very pale skin which is not a Valyrian trait. Not once have we heard about Dany's sunburn problem because of her lack of melanin.

The Daynes are most likely Proto-Valyrian given that some of them have silver hair to go with the purple eyes. It's the sword that was made from the heart of a fallen star, not the Daynes themselves.

4 hours ago, tugela said:

Daenerys could not have been born 8-9 months after Jon, because then it would be impossible for Aerys to be her father, which everyone would have noted.

She was born at around the same time as Jon.

Please see this SSM to learn otherwise: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040  These are the words of the author, and as such are beyond contestation.

3 hours ago, tugela said:

There would not be any need to keep Jon's parentage secret unless he was Rhaegar's son. And the Kingsguard would not have been there protecting Lyanna unless her son was Rhaegar's.

Rhaegar was very much into the prophecies regarding the return of the Others and the man who would defeat them. If he decided that a Dayne and a Stark had to have a baby, he would have done everything he could to make that happen and make sure the baby was kept safe. Not saying I think it's likely, but it is technically possible.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

3 hours ago, tugela said:

We also have text showing the Kingsguard were there because they were supposed to be there. They were not MIA, they were performing their duty.

Adding to what tugela said...

Voice, why on earth would Rhaegar call it HIS Tower of Joy if he'd never been there? We have text placing Gerald Hightower there after King Aerys orders him to find the prince. Those two pieces are enough evidence to conclude that Rhaegar was indeed at the ToJ and for longer than just a quick nap.

[Makk]

5 hours ago, tugela said:

A more likely outcome of that scenario is that she would have her men at arms throw Ned from the Tower, not herself. That is what a hot blooded Dornish woman would do.

I assume you are joking about murder, but leaving that aside I accept it is entirely possible that some women would become much more angry than sad in these circumstances. Fair enough. Every women in Dorne? Probably not and we don't really have much insight into her character to give clues how she would react. My big problem with any theory that involves her living is where did she go and why does everyone believe she threw herself from a tower? I don't believe there is anything more to it, she was in the story to be a possible mother to Jon Snow and a figure of tragedy.

[J. Stargaryen]

On 7/25/2016 at 5:34 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'd say it is implied by the fact Doran is 52 and is Lewyn's sisters son. As I said with no implication at all that lewyn was decades younger than his sister we have no reason to think he was. I'd argue that saying Lewyn might have been decades younger than his sibling without any evidence to that sounds like wishful thinking. 

Because siblings are always close in age, like Rhaegar and Viserys.

Remind me, how many decades younger than his sister did I claim Lewyn was?

On 7/25/2016 at 5:34 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm not even sure as to what you are trying to say in the next part. The quotes I gave imply he knew both who Ashara's baby daddy was, and who Lewyn's paramour was. He's telling us that they were incredibly close. Of course he doesn't say who each was, both Ashara's baby daddy and Lewyn's paramour's identities are mysteries. Ashara's lover is implied to be a Stark, and the less astute reader thinks this is more evidence of her and Ned having been lovers, and the more astute realises Barristan's feelings about Ned do not chime with him having been the man who despoiled Ashara. 

As to him knowing who Lewyn's lover was, yes, it is implied he knows, he's literally telling us he kept his secrets. He also says Lewyn kept a paramour, which implies she was kept by him, as in he supported and housed her and paid her visits whenever he could discreetly do so. Which is an idea in line with what Arrianne tells us, because her chapter implies the woman is known to the Martell family and she has met her. From which it can be ascertained they supported her after his death.

I think the way you use "implied" isn't really helpful, as it's possibly an intentional misdirection. I mean if we are led to believe one thing, but we aren't explicitly told that it is true-- isn't that exactly how red herrings often work?

On 7/25/2016 at 5:34 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

There is having a tragic life and then there is fucking yourself up so badly that in just 15 years you've lost your looks so much that you look rough as sticks. To be that ravaged that Arrianne can't see that she was once a great beauty she'd have had to be caneing the milk of the poppy like there was no tomorrow. Smoking her head off,chewing sourleaf by the barrel load, whilst laying in the sun permenantly with no scarf or shade. Have eaten herself to the size of Lord Manderly and possibly have gotten into self harm.  Seriously women of that age who were stunning don't just loose their looks by their mid thirties. This is a pointless argument. Tragic life sure, but not so tragic given the times they were living in, many ladies would expect to experience widowhood several times, and loose maybe even a dozen children over their lifetimes. Rhaella was still beautiful when she died, and she'd been through enough heartbreak and abuse to destroy most people. 

The amount of hyperbole in this paragraph hardly merits a response. However, the first chapter of the series provides a handy counter, describing Ned, who is most likely very close in age to Ashara, as appearing older than his years.

Bran’s father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. - AGoT, Bran I

I also think such arguments miss the point, which is: Arianne's line is straight forward and all but rules out Ashara, or it's not and doesn't. And that second part could cover a whole lot of ground.

I would like to add, though, that this idea that a twenty-something girl in the prime of her beauty could not possibly be insulting about an attractive woman in her 30s on the basis of her age, seems wrong to me.

On 7/25/2016 at 5:34 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

What you've missed though is that that speculation is made based on the text as opposed to based on the lack of anything to tell us directly otherwise. 

What I missed where? Is this what you mean?

"If there had been a Martell-Dayne child borne in the near past, wouldn't she recall that child? And her supposed death. And wonder if her baby with Darkstar might grow to look like that lost infant would have?"

Either L+A isn't a thing, or it is, but GRRM wasn't ready to reveal it just yet. It's that simple.

To say that I've built my case for L+A on unfalsifiable evidence (you can't prove it didn't happen!) is simply not true. Not only have I stated otherwise, but I've posted some of the circumstantial evidence that I believe supports L+A in this thread. I've repeatedly stated that Arianne's line and the HH stuff appear to be problems for the theory. However, in light of the circumstantial evidence, I think there's a decent chance that the apparent obstacles to the theory may not be as insurmountable as they appear.

On 7/25/2016 at 5:34 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

No it does not, because the only L+X theory that has textual evidence is L+R and it is a theory which stands up because it has evidence in the text. Her lovers identity is implied in the text all over the place, that is why it is such a well supported theory, There is nothing to support Lewyn & Ashara from the text other than them being in the same place at the same time. 

I guess I need to repeat myself. I came up with L+A before TWoIaF was released. Prior to its release we did not know that Lewyn came to court with Elia, or that he had become close with Rhaegar.

On 7/25/2016 at 5:34 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Arrianne has no reason to not contemplate it. She isn't hiding some great secret, isn't living a lie trying to cover up the fact her child is in fact that child, and directly day dreams about what her child with a Dayne might look like.  Of course I could be wrong and the reason she doesn't think about it could be some great plot point. But I'd say that chances are much higher, given the distinct lack of evidence. That she doesn't think about it because Lewyn & Ashara never so much as kissed, let alone had a child together. 

Sure she does, since you provide one just a couple of sentences later. Arianne isn't a real person. She's a conduit of information for GRRM. And as I said above, she didn't contemplate anything to do with L+A because it's not true, or it is but GRRM didn't want to reveal it just yet. You think the former is much more likely and, objectively speaking, it probably is. Still, I find the circumstantial evidence suspicious. And I've never been especially taken by any of the L+X or X+A theories.

---

Also, I want to clarify that I'm not asking you to prove negatives or anything like that. I despise those sorts of theories. I mentioned one possible hypothetical to OuttaOldtown, and it's become the focus of the discussion. It wasn't meant to be.

If you're interested, there was discussion about the identity of Prince Lewyn's paramour here. And the thread where I first mentioned the idea, which had already been suggested, is here.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

37 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Because siblings are always close in age, like Rhaegar and Viserys.

But I already said, that in the absence of any evidence that Lewyn's parents had the same sorts of fertility issues as Rhaella & Aerys, or that his and Doran's Martell parent was perhaps re married after many years. We simply have no reason to suspect a large age gap. And without that evidence I am reluctant to entertain the idea. As unless there was problems, a huge number of siblings or a second marriage we do not have any reason to think they would be significantly different in age. And we have nothing which indicates any of these things. 

Remind me, how many decades younger than his sister did I claim Lewyn was?

You have not, but in view that this is a consensual relationship, Ashara as a very young and stunningly beautiful woman would chose a man old enough to be her dad is unlikely. I have said it is possible. of course it is. But it is unlikely. 

I think the way you use "implied" isn't really helpful, as it's possibly an intentional misdirection. I mean if we are led to believe one thing, but we aren't explicitly told that it is true-- isn't that exactly how red herrings often work?

I think we have to look at the source, Barristan is a first hand source of information in this regard. He is telling us that the KG were as close as brothers, kept each others secrets and that still to this day he feels loyalty to Lewyn Martell, so much so that he feels compelled to assist his great nephew.  Of course it could be misdirection, but then you could say the same for any line in the text. What you have to do is take that information and examine it in relation to what else you know. So To take a clear misdirection, Ned & the Fisherman's Daughter. We are told the story, and that Jon is her son. But when we weigh the information given to Davos, it does not add up with what we know to be fact. That Jon & Robb are so close in age Cat can not be 100% sure Robb is the elder. If this fisherman's daughter were Jon's mother, he (Jon) would be significantly older than Robb, and more importantly Ned would not have cheated on her, and has no reason at all to let Cat believe he has. Now do we have anything which contradicts Barristan here? Anything to imply Lewyn was not as honest with his KG brothers as he thinks he was? Anything to imply Barristan is a fool to think the man truly shared his secrets? Because I can't think of a single thing.

The amount of hyperbole in this paragraph hardly merits a response. However, the first chapter of the series provides a handy counter, describing Ned, who is most likely very close in age to Ashara, as appearing older than his years.

Bran’s father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. - AGoT, Bran I

Ned has never been viewed as a great beauty, Cat tells us how unimpressed she was by his looks. And Ashara IF she were Lewyn's paramour has had no stress in the intervening 15 years, having simply "retired" from public life. Whereas Ned has lived a lie every day of his life.  And Bran is pointing out that the white in his beard specifically makes him look older. I doubt Ashara has a beard. 

I also think such arguments miss the point, which is: Arianne's line is straight forward and all but rules out Ashara, or it's not and doesn't. And that second part could cover a whole lot of ground.

I think it is straight forward and does rule Ashara out.

I would like to add, though, that this idea that a twenty-something girl in the prime of her beauty could not possibly be insulting about an attractive woman in her 30s on the basis of her age, seems wrong to me.

Of course she could be. But she isn't talking to someone and being a bitch, she's simply saying that she has been told she was once a great beauty.  Arrianne has no reason to be snide about her, such as Cersei is about Marge, because she is jealous of the girls youth. Arrianne is not coming over as jealous of the older woman, and she doesn't in general come over as a shallow bitch either. Therefore we have no reason to suspect she is being snide.

What I missed where? Is this what you mean?

"If there had been a Martell-Dayne child borne in the near past, wouldn't she recall that child? And her supposed death. And wonder if her baby with Darkstar might grow to look like that lost infant would have?"

Either L+A isn't a thing, or it is, but GRRM wasn't ready to reveal it just yet. It's that simple.

fair enough, but I think if it were a thing given his style, he'd offer at least a hint here. Something half thought of but pushed aside. But we get nothing. 

To say that I've built my case for L+A on unfalsifiable evidence (you can't prove it didn't happen!) is simply not true. Not only have I stated otherwise, but I've posted some of the circumstantial evidence that I believe supports L+A in this thread. I've repeatedly stated that Arianne's line and the HH stuff appear to be problems for the theory. However, in light of the circumstantial evidence, I think there's a decent chance that the apparent obstacles to the theory may not be as insurmountable as they appear.

And I disagree, To me the circumstantial evidence you present, is entirely un-compelling, because there is nothing in the text to support it. And for me the line from Arriane, and the HH stuff entirely exclude the possibility. Because there is nothing which contradicts them, no evidence to suggest Barristan is mistaken or Arrianne is no judge of beauty.

I guess I need to repeat myself. I came up with L+A before TWoIaF was released. Prior to its release we did not know that Lewyn came to court with Elia, or that he had become close with Rhaegar.

I'm sorry (this is genuine, not a sarky "I'm Sorry") But coming up with the theory prior to TWOAIF doesn't compel me to think it correct, There isn't anything that supports it in my mind. Them being in the same place, and coming to court at the same time doesn't a pair of lovers make. I need something to pin the possibility on. Some comment, a hint, some reason to suspect. But there isn't anything.  No body ever makes a connection between the two. And at this stage if you are going to reveal a pair of secret lovers there has to have been some foundation laid down. A recollection of how Ashara once said Lewyn was handsome. Someone remembering a look shared between the two once. but there isn't any, and there is evidence to suggest against the idea. 

Sure she does, since you provide one just a couple of sentences later. Arianne isn't a real person. She's a conduit of information for GRRM. And as I said above, she didn't contemplate anything to do with L+A because it's not true, or it is but GRRM didn't want to reveal it just yet. You think the former is much more likely and, objectively speaking, it probably is. Still, I find the circumstantial evidence suspicious. And I've never been especially taken by any of the L+X or X+A theories.

---I'm really NOT taken by the random couplings proposed by so many readers. the absence of any evidence is entirely off putting to me. If you are going to propose a pairing there has to be in text support. Ashara has in text support for Brandon, Rhaegar for Lyanna, Aerys for Joanna.  All the other theories I see have nothing. And even with evidence I'm not sure I truly believe all three of the above. Some of it is a bit scanty. 

Also, I want to clarify that I'm not asking you to prove negatives or anything like that. I despise those sorts of theories. I mentioned one possible hypothetical to OuttaOldtown, and it's become the focus of the discussion. It wasn't meant to be.

Yes, sometimes a particular point takes over a thread. I get it. 

If you're interested, there was discussion about the identity of Prince Lewyn's paramour here. And the thread where I first mentioned the idea, which had already been suggested, is here.

I may check these out, thank you. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

14 hours ago, finger said:

It seems to me you look like the kind of person who disdain other people and their opinions without offering any better alternative. If you have any  idea of who was the father, and where, when, and how she got prenant, don't hesitate to share it. If else, I don't have any use for unasked contemptuous remarks.

I'm going to suggest that you re read the section of your previous post which I highlighted, and ask yourself what in that post would suggest to a person reading it that you were in fact; rather than presenting serious and intelligent, thought out arguments in favour of your theory, just trolling. 

And I do not disdain others without offering alternatives. I in fact have offered alternatives, in this and many other threads. That alternative being that Brandon Stark was Ashara's lover, and the father of her child. Conceived at Harrenhall during the Tourney  of the spring. 

It's conventional yes, But then perhaps that is because it makes sense, fits within the text we are given and is supported by numerous in world characters opinions and experiences. 

It fits with Brandon as a cad (evidence Barbrey Dustin), Brandon as sexy (evidence Catelyn Tully) Brandon as rash (evidence Ned Stark) Brandon as Impulsive,hot headed & passionate (Jaime Lannister, Ned Stark & Catelyn Tully & the recorded events; such as rushing to KL.) 

It fits with Barristan's thoughts and recollections. Who was a primary source of information for much of what he has said, and a secondary source with high motivation to discover the truth for other parts. Note: this does not mean I think everything Barristan tells us is automatically correct. But we can surmise from these facts his ability to know a certain amount regarding what happened. IE: that she got pregnant at Harrenhall and it was Stark who she had sex with. He as there, and paying close attention to her,and he had access to the overheard gossip and conversation of her fellow handmaids and the Princess Elia so given his motivation in regards to Ashara, it is believable that he knows who it was she slept with. We then piece together that with the fact Barristan does not think ill of Ned Stark, and we can conclude it was a different Stark, and that Brandon from what others tell us of him, fits the bill. 

But in regard to her suicide and the still birth, he only has second hand information sent from Starfall after the events. So we can ascertain that these facts may in fact be half truths. The official line from her family. That her baby was a daughter, and still born and that she committed suicide can all be questioned. But they do tell us a few things about what might have really gone on. Again we know given his feelings, he will have gone out of his way to discover what happened. We again know as a KG he is privy to secrets which would not be openly discussed outside of the ladies private chambers. So we ca ascertain he knows more than your average member of court. I'd hazard that there is some truth in these facts abut not necessarily the whole truth.

I think it likely Allyria Dayne is actually Ashara and Brandons daughter, but that her family chose to claim her as their own to save the child a bastards fate. This is supported historically as we all know it was/is a common practice in real world. And it is supported by the suspiciousness of Allyria's long engagement to Beric. Suggesting she is a lot younger than her siblings.

But of course this is a tenuous theory,scantilly supported at best. So I'd never argue it to the point of making stuff up, twisting time lines, discarding SSM's and making unsupported claims about rape in the text.  Or god forbid flippant slut shaming type remarks about women not knowing who the father is, or rape jokes. Because then someone may feel my credibility as a serious source of discussion was compromised, and that my theories lacked merit. 

[sweetsunray]

12 hours ago, tugela said:

Silver hair and purple eyes are albino traits that result from a lack of melanin, and the Valyrians and other people who have these characteristics are albinos. The Daynes are not albino though, which means that their purple eyes have to come from a unique genetic makeup that is not human. They are not like other people, they are alien. Which is kind of weird when you consider their whole starfall origin story.

I think you're taking the real world genetics too far here. Yes, George obviously does use dominant and recessive genes regarding certain traits, and it appears even magical traits are 'genetically' linked. The possibility though that magical traits such as warging or dragonriding is linked to particular families already suggests to throw out real world genetics. So does the preservation of such traits (certainly if recessive) for 8000 years or more within a family. 

As for your albino trait claims: @Lady Blizzardborn responded to this already. Actual albino's have red eyes, cannot stand the sun (for obvious lack of melanin reasons). Real world abinism allelles are present in every human population, but requires both parents to have the recessive allelle, and therefore appears more frequent in small comunities that only marry within that small community (such as within the Lacondon community in Chiapas, Mexico). That said, even two people from different communities can have a child with albinism if they both happen to have the recessive gene. If Valyrian traits were simply albino traits, then other communities of only a few thousand people intermarrying for hundreds-thousands of years would have an albino child once in a while. You'd occasionally have people with purple eyes and silver hair amongst the Mountain Clans of the Vale, in the North south of the Wall, .... while neither parent exhibits the visual traits.

There is an actual albino in the story: Brynden Rivers, aka Bloodraven... very pale skin, red eyes, and white hair - child of a Blackwood and Targ. Hence, George uses the same physical appearance for albinism on Planetos -> So, it's red eyes, white hair and milk white pale skin and not silver hair with purple eyes on Planetos, and the genes that can result in albinism are present in both Targs as well as First Men/Blackwoods.

[J. Stargaryen]

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

But I already said, that in the absence of any evidence that Lewyn's parents had the same sorts of fertility issues as Rhaella & Aerys, or that his and Doran's Martell parent was perhaps re married after many years. We simply have no reason to suspect a large age gap. And without that evidence I am reluctant to entertain the idea. As unless there was problems, a huge number of siblings or a second marriage we do not have any reason to think they would be significantly different in age. And we have nothing which indicates any of these things. 

Curiously... The app states that: "[Doran's] mother repeatedly miscarries or gives birth to children who fail to live out the year." Which is why he is nine years older than his oldest sibling, Elia. And we know that Elia has a difficult time with births. Maybe it runs in the family.

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Anything to imply Lewyn was not as honest with his KG brothers as he thinks he was? Anything to imply Barristan is a fool to think the man truly shared his secrets? Because I can't think of a single thing.

Oh, come on. Anything to imply that Lewyn was stupid enough to blab about who he was breaking his vows with?

“Prince Lewyn was my Sworn Brother. In those days there were few secrets amongst the Kingsguard. I know he kept a paramour. He did not feel there was any shame in that.” - ADwD, The Discarded Knight

All Barristan says is that he knows he kept a paramour.

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Ned has never been viewed as a great beauty, Cat tells us how unimpressed she was by his looks. And Ashara IF she were Lewyn's paramour has had no stress in the intervening 15 years, having simply "retired" from public life. Whereas Ned has lived a lie every day of his life.  And Bran is pointing out that the white in his beard specifically makes him look older. I doubt Ashara has a beard. 

Once again, this seems to veer off into arguing hypothetical details about hypothetical scenarios. But since we're here, I think you're way off base saying Ashara wouldn't have had any stress after faking her death... Which would be a lie she would have lived every day of her life. You got me on the beard, though. But she probably does have hair, which could lose its color. And she definitely has a face, which could have wrinkles.

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And I disagree, To me the circumstantial evidence you present, is entirely un-compelling, because there is nothing in the text to support it. And for me the line from Arriane, and the HH stuff entirely exclude the possibility. Because there is nothing which contradicts them, no evidence to suggest Barristan is mistaken or Arrianne is no judge of beauty.

I suppose everybody is entitled to their own definition of textual support. For example, I think the song Arya hears Dareon singing in Bravos during AFfC could reasonably be interpreted as a clue about Ashara. Which might seem kind of random until you recall that Edric talks about his aunt to Arya in ASoS. - Link

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm sorry (this is genuine, not a sarky "I'm Sorry") But coming up with the theory prior to TWOAIF doesn't compel me to think it correct, There isn't anything that supports it in my mind. Them being in the same place, and coming to court at the same time doesn't a pair of lovers make.

I guess I just find it that strange that you acknowledge the evidence presented in TWoIaF, but nothing beforehand. Even though there are various L+A discussions predating its release.

[OuttaOldtown]

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm going to suggest that you re read the section of your previous post which I highlighted, and ask yourself what in that post would suggest to a person reading it that you were in fact; rather than presenting serious and intelligent, thought out arguments in favour of your theory, just trolling. 

And I do not disdain others without offering alternatives. I in fact have offered alternatives, in this and many other threads. That alternative being that Brandon Stark was Ashara's lover, and the father of her child. Conceived at Harrenhall during the Tourney  of the spring. 

It's conventional yes, But then perhaps that is because it makes sense, fits within the text we are given and is supported by numerous in world characters opinions and experiences. 

It fits with Brandon as a cad (evidence Barbrey Dustin), Brandon as sexy (evidence Catelyn Tully) Brandon as rash (evidence Ned Stark) Brandon as Impulsive,hot headed & passionate (Jaime Lannister, Ned Stark & Catelyn Tully & the recorded events; such as rushing to KL.) 

It fits with Barristan's thoughts and recollections. Who was a primary source of information for much of what he has said, and a secondary source with high motivation to discover the truth for other parts. Note: this does not mean I think everything Barristan tells us is automatically correct. But we can surmise from these facts his ability to know a certain amount regarding what happened. IE: that she got pregnant at Harrenhall and it was Stark who she had sex with. He as there, and paying close attention to her,and he had access to the overheard gossip and conversation of her fellow handmaids and the Princess Elia so given his motivation in regards to Ashara, it is believable that he knows who it was she slept with. We then piece together that with the fact Barristan does not think ill of Ned Stark, and we can conclude it was a different Stark, and that Brandon from what others tell us of him, fits the bill. 

I also believe this is the most likely scenario, I'll add that Selmy is telling us the man who 'dishonored' her was someone who contributed to the grief that caused her suicide:

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"""""If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty …

Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter …

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.""""

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It points directly to a 'Stark', no mention of Lewyn and I believe if there was a connection this would've been the place. Also, if you consider this possibility that she looked to Brandon and he dishonored her leaving her with child, its nearly the opposite reaction to what we see Robb do with Jeyne, who chose to honor the one he slept with and broke the oath arranged by his mother. Brandon was promised to Cat, and from what we're told was ready to marry her. If its true that the Stark was Brandon that sets the scene for the 'dishonor' aspect, his choice to instead honor the arrangement with Cat and then his horrible death would be a clear cause for grief for Ashara. 

Further reasons I doubt the idea of her being Lewyn's paramour is that in The Discarded Knight when he brings the subject of paramours in Dorne to Quentyn its in reference to Daario, the conversation also involves Dany's rejection of Quentyn. Why doesn't the thought of Lewyn's paramour spark thoughts of Ashara as he did with his thoughts about the Tourney at Harrenhal in The KIngbreaker? 

[Kal-L]

On 28/7/2016 at 7:32 AM, Ygrain said:

That's an interesting take! And it fits - Ned tells us that Brandon always knew what to do, so a little manoevering like that would be in character.

Well, he appears as smarter (or maybe more cunning) I believed him to be.

[finger]

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

skip. 

Actually, my deliberately exaggerated comment that's in the root of this awkward interchange only pretended to be sarcastic. I might have expressed it a bit loudly, but it's not out of the tone used in this forum, and it shouldn't be read as praising rape, or the sort. My point is that the man who dishonored her was no secret.

Here's the quote

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

I think it's Ned Stark he's thinking, and this should be coherent with WF's rumors. As I told, Brandon was looking for a convenient match for Ned, and getting him near Rhaegar was convenient for Brandon. Tourneys were also meant for politics. And this is not coherent with Brandon having sex with a girl who's more useful as his brother's wife, more so when it should cause him trouble. Otoh, Ned didn't dishonored anyone in his whole life, that's out of question.

These reckons found the possibility of rape. This is not my idea, and it's around this forum for a while. My addition is that the only known rapist who could get away with it is Aerys. But he's just another candidate. I think he's more feasible than Brandon, and much more than a Ser Pate of the Pebbles , who happened to pass by at the right moment.

[Voice]

21 hours ago, tugela said:

We know that she had a still born child shortly before killing herself,

Actually, we don't.

Granted, it is a very fair assumption to make, but we are never told that Ashara killed herself shortly after her baby was born.

And again, her own sister does not believe that was the cause of her death.

Might it have been? Certainly.

Do we know that was the case? Certainly not.

 

21 hours ago, tugela said:

which Barristan surmises was in part due to memory of the main who dishonored her (implying that he was recently deceased).

Barristan never once implied the man who dishonored Ashara was dead, let alone that he died near the time Ashara committed suicide.

 

21 hours ago, tugela said:

We also know that Ned returned Dawn specifically to her (so she must have been the ranking Dayne at Starfall at the time).

We know that people like Catelyn think Ned returned Dawn to Ashara-specifically. But Catelyn also thinks that Jon is Ashara's son. Thus, Catelyn was likely wrong about her assumptions, no?

What we do know without need for speculation is that Ashara Dayne's elder brother was alive when Ned returned Dawn to Starfall. We know this because he had yet to sire Edric.

 

21 hours ago, tugela said:

All of that implies that she had her child at around the same time Lyanna had hers, and that her love died around that time as well. Short list. The only possibilities are that her love was either at ToJ, or Ned brought news of his death when he returned the sword.

That is never really implied at all, nor is ANY chronology for Ashara's pregnancy. But I do agree that she likely died following news from Ned. I would not go so far as to say that those are the only possibilities. 

All we know for certain is that Ashara was rumored to have had a child, and that if she did, she was likely alive when it occurred as her death is never attributed to childbirth.

Ashara could have committed suicide years after Ned's visit. We simply do not know. All we know is that her sister had reason to tell her nephew that Ashara died of a broken heart caused by Ned Stark. 

 

21 hours ago, tugela said:

There is also the bard song that Arya heard, which refers to a lady who threw herself from a tower in grief after her prince was killed. I believe that song was about Ashara.

I agree. I pointed out that song upthread as well.

It fits the notion of Rhaegar+Ashara being an item quite perfectly, as the woman killed herself because her "prince" was killed.

Interestingly, the promiscuous Dareon is confronted by a very angry and large man who is tossed into a canal. Reminds me of the Trident a bit, but in reverse.

 

21 hours ago, tugela said:

Jon presumably was newborn, since Lyanna was referred to being in a bed of blood, and died weak from fever. Unless she had Ebola, she had just given birth. If Jon is older than that, then there must be another baby out there.

Agreed.

[Voice]

21 hours ago, tugela said:

We also have text showing the Kingsguard were there because they were supposed to be there. They were not MIA, they were performing their duty.

I never suggested they were not performing a duty. What that duty was, of course, remains up for speculation. 

 

17 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Adding to what tugela said...

Voice, why on earth would Rhaegar call it HIS Tower of Joy if he'd never been there?

 

Well, firstly, Rhaegar never called it HIS Tower of Joy, did he. Here is the actual quote:

Quote

It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory.

 

The grammar is ambiguous, but the capitalization really is not. I have many shoes. Some of my shoes are destined for the beach. Some are downright presidential. One pair, seems to attract debris of all sorts. They are old shoes, but are by far the most comfortable. I have done a lot of cool things in those shoes. They have chased children and dogs. They been to countless sporting events and concerts, often proving to be good luck. And yes, they are shoes of joy.

I've said that, just now... lol. Thus, hearsayers can factually state:

Quote

It was said that Voice had named that pair the shoes of joy.

 

They are actually an old pair of Jordans. Yes, they are awesome. But "awesome" is not their name.

Read more: http://thelasthearth.com/thread/918/crown-blue-winter-roses#ixzz4Fpdz20Uw

 

17 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

We have text placing Gerald Hightower there after King Aerys orders him to find the prince. Those two pieces are enough evidence to conclude that Rhaegar was indeed at the ToJ and for longer than just a quick nap.

 

Agreed, those two pieces certainly constitute enough evidence to draw that conclusion. But that is far from being the only conclusion that one could draw ... unless you intend to suggest that Gerold was still going about that order after the sack, and that Gerold only ever camped at places Rhaegar went in following that order, and that Rhaegar only ever complimented places he stayed.

And yes, "tower of joy" is an expression of praise, but it is not a proper name.

Off the top of my head, another conclusion that could be drawn from those two pieces of evidence is that, like Ned, Gerold went south. On the way, he heard that Rhaegar had named some tower in the Red Mountains of Dorne as being one of joy. Acting upon that rumor, Gerold sought out the tower.

Ned found him, acting upon the same rumors.

Plausible, no?

[OuttaOldtown]

6 hours ago, finger said:

Actually, my deliberately exaggerated comment that's in the root of this awkward interchange only pretended to be sarcastic. I might have expressed it a bit loudly, but it's not out of the tone used in this forum, and it shouldn't be read as praising rape, or the sort. My point is that the man who dishonored her was no secret.

Here's the quote

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

I think it's Ned Stark he's thinking, and this should be coherent with WF's rumors. As I told, Brandon was looking for a convenient match for Ned, and getting him near Rhaegar was convenient for Brandon. Tourneys were also meant for politics. And this is not coherent with Brandon having sex with a girl who's more useful as his brother's wife, more so when it should cause him trouble. Otoh, Ned didn't dishonored anyone in his whole life, that's out of question.

These reckons found the possibility of rape. This is not my idea, and it's around this forum for a while. My addition is that the only known rapist who could get away with it is Aerys. But he's just another candidate. I think he's more feasible than Brandon, and much more than a Ser Pate of the Pebbles , who happened to pass by at the right moment.

One question, you don't find it the least bit curious that Ned never once thinks of Ashara? We have precedent for other POV characters beyond Selmy thinking of past loves that got away or never were, Cat thinks of Brandon, Tyrion thinks about Tysha, even Cersei thinking of Rhaegar,. I ask because this is my biggest area of doubt..

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 hours ago, Voice said:

<snip

Well, firstly, Rhaegar never called it HIS Tower of Joy, did he. Here is the actual quote:

 

The grammar is ambiguous, but the capitalization really is not. I have many shoes. Some of my shoes are destined for the beach. Some are downright presidential. One pair, seems to attract debris of all sorts. They are old shoes, but are by far the most comfortable. I have done a lot of cool things in those shoes. They have chased children and dogs. They been to countless sporting events and concerts, often proving to be good luck. And yes, they are shoes of joy.

I've said that, just now... lol. Thus, hearsayers can factually state:

 

They are actually an old pair of Jordans. Yes, they are awesome. But "awesome" is not their name.

Read more: http://thelasthearth.com/thread/918/crown-blue-winter-roses#ixzz4Fpdz20Uw

 

 

Agreed, those two pieces certainly constitute enough evidence to draw that conclusion. But that is far from being the only conclusion that one could draw ... unless you intend to suggest that Gerold was still going about that order after the sack, and that Gerold only ever camped at places Rhaegar went in following that order, and that Rhaegar only ever complimented places he stayed.

And yes, "tower of joy" is an expression of praise, but it is not a proper name.

Off the top of my head, another conclusion that could be drawn from those two pieces of evidence is that, like Ned, Gerold went south. On the way, he heard that Rhaegar had named some tower in the Red Mountains of Dorne as being one of joy. Acting upon that rumor, Gerold sought out the tower.

Ned found him, acting upon the same rumors.

Plausible, no?

Certainly. However by your own analogy, the shoes of joy are shoes in which you have spent a lot of time. So why would Rhaegar name any tower a tower of joy if it wasn't connected to his joy?

Sorry I remembered the quote wrong.

Gerold going to the Tower to find Rhaegar rather does indicate that Rhaegar was there, and Gerold somehow knew it or learned it. Factoring in travel time--particularly if GH had to hunt for information first--by the time The White Bull could arrive at his destination and warn the prince that daddy was callling him clearly Rhae Rhae had been there for a while. LC Hightower staying at the ToJ after Rhaegar leaves for King's Landing has no bearing on that point.

The capitalization is just for ease of reference. "Tower of Joy" stands out better in posts than does "tower of joy."

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

14 hours ago, finger said:

Actually, my deliberately exaggerated comment that's in the root of this awkward interchange only pretended to be sarcastic. I might have expressed it a bit loudly, but it's not out of the tone used in this forum, and it shouldn't be read as praising rape, or the sort. My point is that the man who dishonored her was no secret.

Here's the quote

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

I think it's Ned Stark he's thinking, and this should be coherent with WF's rumors. As I told, Brandon was looking for a convenient match for Ned, and getting him near Rhaegar was convenient for Brandon. Tourneys were also meant for politics. And this is not coherent with Brandon having sex with a girl who's more useful as his brother's wife, more so when it should cause him trouble. Otoh, Ned didn't dishonored anyone in his whole life, that's out of question.

These reckons found the possibility of rape. This is not my idea, and it's around this forum for a while. My addition is that the only known rapist who could get away with it is Aerys. But he's just another candidate. I think he's more feasible than Brandon, and much more than a Ser Pate of the Pebbles , who happened to pass by at the right moment.

Please don't be so patronising as to tell me how I should take your comments. If a reader misunderstands your tone, the polite way to handle that is to apologise, explain and reflect upon how you might get your intended tone over better in the future. And just because others use the same crass disregard for other forum users when they make jokes and flippantly discuss the topic of rape. That doesn't make it right.  I found your references highly distasteful and showing a total lack of respect for the topic.  And in doing so you came across as taking the piss.  So in turn I couldn't take your posts seriously. 

I agree that the man whom she had sex with isn't a huge secret, Amongst certain circles.  ie: within the ladies chambers, and those privy to their whispers. Barristan as a Kings Guard would be privy to these whispers. He had access to both the Princess Elia ,her hand maids, their quarters, and their staff. And he had the motivation to seek out the truth about Ashara's pregnancy. 

I don't dispute the possibility that Brandon used the excuse of seeking out a good match for his younger brother to get close to Ashara. But from what we know of him, I wouldn't at all put it past him to seduce the potential bride himself.  Him having sex with a woman whom was a potential wife for his brother is not at all at odds with using the tourney to conduct politics. As far as any knight or lord having sex with a Lady at a Tourney, no one is looking to advertise that. Everyone engaging in non marital relations would be looking to keep it hush hush. And anyone caught doing so would be courting trouble. 

We know Brandon is not adverse to risk taking, we know he loves the look of a maidens blood on his cock, and we know he doesn't give a shit about keeping himself for Catelyn. And I get the impression from Ned that his older brother tended to take whatever he wanted. 

There is literally nothing whatsoever which indicates a rape in Ashara's story. Yes it is an idea which is floated in the forums, but it's one plucked from thin air. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

8 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

One question, you don't find it the least bit curious that Ned never once thinks of Ashara? We have precedent for other POV characters beyond Selmy thinking of past loves that got away or never were, Cat thinks of Brandon, Tyrion thinks about Tysha, even Cersei thinking of Rhaegar,. I ask because this is my biggest area of doubt..

indeed we even get Jaime reflecting on Lysa! but Ned never thinks of Ashara. Not once.

[finger]

10 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

One question, you don't find it the least bit curious that Ned never once thinks of Ashara? We have precedent for other POV characters beyond Selmy thinking of past loves that got away or never were, Cat thinks of Brandon, Tyrion thinks about Tysha, even Cersei thinking of Rhaegar,. I ask because this is my biggest area of doubt..

The quick answer is the author has decided to conceal Ned's thoughts: if he'd reveal too much, he'd ruin the mystery. But, going beyond the obvious, it's worth considering if it fits the character.

Ned is dutiful if anything. When Brandon died, he put himself dutifully into his brother shoes (well, boots), took WF's lordship and married his betrothed. He was dutiful even making love to her and planting a heir into her. He left his former life behind, and he only thinks about Lyanna because she forced him to left aside his strict code for one time, with those unwanted consequences we all know.

Let's imagine there was a romance between Ned and Lyanna Ashara (upps) at HH. I think he wouldn't indulge in longing for his lost love. He's always acting the stern Lord Warden of the North, who can never slip anyhow. It could explain his hot, disproportionate rebuke to Cat when she only asked if Ashara was the mother of that Ned's bastard she had to swallow. He's not fair or just, he's flawless, and I guess Cat hit the spot. I wouldn't say this prove the said romance, but at least it's in line with it. Moreover, I guess he felt guilty for whatever happened at HH, that made him angry too..

Otoh, he thinks about Brandon and his wolf blood that caused trouble sometimes. He never thinks of him like a bully who mistreated his siblings or stole his girl. In fact, he made Brandon buried in the crypts. This doesn't match with his answer to Cat.

[Maester Crypt]

16 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

One question, you don't find it the least bit curious that Ned never once thinks of Ashara? We have precedent for other POV characters beyond Selmy thinking of past loves that got away or never were, Cat thinks of Brandon, Tyrion thinks about Tysha, even Cersei thinking of Rhaegar,. I ask because this is my biggest area of doubt..

Well if Ned Dayne had some courage, we wouldn't have need to answer that question.

“I know. I saw him at the Hand’s tourney. I wanted to go up and speak with him, but I couldn’t think what to say.” Ned shivered beneath his cloak, a sodden length of pale purple.

What a conversation that would have been to read!