Ashara & the mysteries of the Royal Children, explained

[Ashes Of Westeros]

@Ser Ronan Storm Benjen was born in 267 AC or later, according to Wiki, while the Tourney at Harrenhal took place in 281 AC. I guess Benjen isn't our guy. According SSM, the reasons why Benjen took the black are unknown. But Starks always supported the NW, some where LCs.

But probably it will be revealed later.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

As to the parentage of fAegon. I'm a supporter of the brightfyre theory. 

That Varys & Serra were siblings, and that they descend from Aerion Brightflame Targaryen. And Serra is fAegon's mother, with Illyrio, who is a Blackfyre descendant is his father. This would unite both claims to the IT of the Targaryen bastard lines. Giving both Varys & Illyrio a real investment in the boy as ruler and fulfilling years of resentment at having been left out of the inheritance, and in Varys & serra's case being forced to live a life of destitution because of this. 

[The Ice Wolf of Loki]

9 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

What's in it for Varys? There are many possible answers to it. I see Varys as basically planting "Il Principe" in power, some machiavelistic idealism regarding how an empire should be run. Varys pretty much seems to owe Illyrio his life since he was very young.

 

Serra could be Varys' sister and they could both be Brightflames descendents of Aerion Targaryen. Illyrio could be a Blackfyre via the female line.

[sweetsunray]

27 minutes ago, The Ice Wolf of Loki said:

Serra could be Varys' sister and they could both be Brightflames descendents of Aerion Targaryen. Illyrio could be a Blackfyre via the female line.

Yeah, I know that's one of the forwarded possibilities (Varys as Serra's brother). I don't rule it out, but I don't think that's even necessary.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think it makes a lot more sense, Varys needs a reason to be truly invested in fAegon. Him being uncle to fAegon is a great reason, especially given that Varys can not father children, so Serra's son is the closet he will ever get. 

 

[Wayward Sand Star]

On 17/07/2016 at 10:23 PM, MizasterJ said:

You certainly make some good points. I acknowledge that the Blackfyres are probably a dangling plot that GRRM has up his sleeve,ready to bring back in a big way, I'd actually really enjoy it if young griff turns out to be a blackfyre, but the silver hair...the eyes, striking resemblances to Rhaegar. I know the BFs shared similar traits as they are of blood. So yah maybe, young Griff isn't Rhaegar or Ashara's.

This "resemblance" is merely sharing eye and hair colour, which we know is a hereditary trait of Targaryen ancestry. In that sense, Viserys and Daenerys 'strikingly resemble' Rhaegar just as much as fAegon does.

 

On 17/07/2016 at 10:23 PM, MizasterJ said:

 Anyhow, the biggest reason I believe Ashara's child is out there (& maybe Ashara herself) is that I believe Dawn=Lightbringer, and that her child is destined to inherit this sword. It is all part of the same prophecy that Rhaegar believed so dearly.

The mentions of Dawn are always sparse and intentionally vague, which contribute a lot to its mystique. (Which is actually true of House Dayne too. But more on that below.) There is really nothing in the books to substantiate such a claim.

 

On 17/07/2016 at 10:23 PM, MizasterJ said:

Now what if prophecy is all just a bunch of wishful thinking? Well then, this would be hardly as interesting of a story. As we are seeing with Cersei's children,some prophecies are bound to come true, either by fate or coincidence.

It should be mentioned here that GRRM's notion of prophecies, which he keeps mentioning in the context of ASOIAF, is that prophecy is very much a double-edged sword: a prophecy is driven by its subject and/or recipient as it drives its subject/recipient. This is pretty much how GRRM answers questions about whether a prophecy is true or not , or about whether the prophecies throughout the books are necessarily deterministic (and, you must admit, it's quite an elegant way to get out answering the question directly!).

Rhaegar, from what little we know of him, is a great example of this notion. It is even heavily implied when characters who were either close or familiar with him give us their account of Rhaegar. Specifically, it is suggested that Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecy of the Prince that Was Promised, and lead to believe that the prophecy could have been his motivation behind a lot of his actions, at the very least, leading up to, and during Robert's Rebellion; the consequences of which have had some rather fateful implications throughout the story so far. So is it the inevitability of a prophecy exerting its determinism, or the actions of agents catalysed by the notion of the prophecy? According to GRRM, it is a bit of both.

Now, in the context of Ahsara Dayne, @OuttaOldtown has already shown that her perceived significance can't be explained away by her being mentioned frequently (that just isn't true). Moreover, there is no textual support for the claim that she is somehow connected to the Prince That was Promised/Azohr Ahai prophecies. I think that Ashara's perceived significance stems only from the fact that she has always been mentioned in connection with Ned Stark (and, more specifically, in connection with Ned Stark's Big Secret).

Knowing what we now know about Jon Snow's parentage, we can surmise that Ashara played some kind of role in Ned Stark's Big Secret, and most likely it was her history with Ned and closeness to Princess Elia and news of the results of the Sack of King's Landing that made here into an accomplice in hiding Rhaegar and Lyanna's child from Robert and his court.

Personally, I have the feeling that her disappearance is significant, somehow, either as an end result of her ambivalence toward keeping Ned's secret, or else in connection to the Targaryen's reemergence in Westeros.   

 

[MizasterJ]

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 

Dany was born 8-9 months after Jon. I.e., long after Ashara's death.

Dany's origin is a bundle of confusion, contradictions, and mysteries. While the true intention of this post is not to call into question Dany's parentage, it is about unfolding the mystery of Ashara, while the two could be connected, I believe its too much of a long shot.

I am leaning rather heavily towards the Targ twins theory. Rhaegar had not 1, but two secret children, and they were probably swapped.

I believe Ned & Ashara felt they had an obligation to protect these children, whether or not they were actually theirs. 

[Ygrain]

52 minutes ago, MizasterJ said:

Dany's origin is a bundle of confusion, contradictions, and mysteries. While the true intention of this post is not to call into question Dany's parentage, it is about unfolding the mystery of Ashara, while the two could be connected, I believe its too much of a long shot.

I am leaning rather heavily towards the Targ twins theory. Rhaegar had not 1, but two secret children, and they were probably swapped.

I believe Ned & Ashara felt they had an obligation to protect these children, whether or not they were actually theirs. 

The only supposed contradiction is that frikkin' lemon tree in Braavos, and even that can be explained without twisting Dany's origin into a pretzel. Plus, the statement about approximately 8-9 months' age difference comes directly from GRRM.

[Ser Ronan Storm]

8 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

@Ser Ronan Storm Benjen was born in 267 AC or later, according to Wiki, while the Tourney at Harrenhal took place in 281 AC. I guess Benjen isn't our guy. According SSM, the reasons why Benjen took the black are unknown. But Starks always supported the NW, some where LCs.

But probably it will be revealed later.

Thank you! Currently my books are boxed up in storage (please don't Shame Nun me), so I'm a little fuzzy on some details.

[Scorpion92]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

The only supposed contradiction is that frikkin' lemon tree in Braavos, and even that can be explained without twisting Dany's origin into a pretzel. Plus, the statement about approximately 8-9 months' age difference comes directly from GRRM.

If George told otherwise regarding 8-9 months difference, then fans will instantly figure something fishy going on here, he needs to keep some information to himself until he publishes it in next books. Jon is listed Eddard Stark's bastard son in all books' official after-story index pages. Does not make it true though.

"Officially" Dany is 8-9 months younger than Jon and she was born on Dragonstone, but that is all according to her - the information she received from Viserys, very unreliable narrator based on everything we know about him.

[Pain killer Jane]

7 hours ago, Wayward Sand Star said:

This "resemblance" is merely sharing eye and hair colour, which we know is a hereditary trait of Targaryen ancestry. In that sense, Viserys and Daenerys 'strikingly resemble' Rhaegar just as much as fAegon does.

Sharing eye and hair color is one thing. But Jon Connington specifically thinks in his POV that Aegon does not have the quality of Rhaegar's eyes. This is extremely significant when you juxtapose the sand snakes that are vastly different in their hair, eye and skin color but are said to have the quality of Oberyn's eyes (for me that usually means the area around his eyes are strikingly similar; not to mention the widow's peek they also share). Now the true test will be when the Sand snakes meet Aegon will Jon Connington note a similarity between their eyes and Aegon because Elia and Oberyn were brother and sister. (I vote more for the sand snakes rather than Arianne as a true test. Just the poetic justice of bastards proving legitimacy is too tempting.) If not then we have another reason to doubt Aegon's identity. 

For me I support the Brightfyre theory in terms of Aegon VI. Because first you have, the fact that Lys employs careful breeding in their bed slaves and the nobles do as well. You have Saera Targaryen (Daughter of Jaehaerys I Targaryen) crossing the narrow sea and probably becoming a whore in Lys first and then a madam in Volantis (The Black Pearl parallel- another one of Aegon IV's bastards). Then Aerion Brightflame spent a lot of time in Lys and possibly fathered children there. Second The Blackfyre pretenders only died out in the male line, the female line is still very much alive (and Targaryens practice selective breeding so why wouldn't the Blackfyres also practice the same thing). Third you have the Rogare family of Lys returning the lost prince Viserys (with his Rogare wife) back to Westeros and reaping massive rewards (Illaryio). 

A note about the sword, Blackfyre. I don't think the Golden Company has Blackfyre, my bet is that Bloodraven has both Blackfyre and Dark Sister with him. If the Golden Comapny does have a Valyrian Steel sword to give to Aegon then it is most likely the sword Truth, which belonged to the Lysene nobleman Moredo Rogare, the uncle of Aegon IV. 

[BalerionTheCat]

10 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

@Ser Ronan Storm Benjen was born in 267 AC or later, according to Wiki, while the Tourney at Harrenhal took place in 281 AC. I guess Benjen isn't our guy. According SSM, the reasons why Benjen took the black are unknown. But Starks always supported the NW, some where LCs.

But probably it will be revealed later.

IMO he took the Black because he knew something about Lyanna and Rhaegar, and could have prevented the affair if he had told their father. He was her only brother about her age. He was her partner in training with swords. All this means she probably knew Rhaegar would come for her.

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

If George told otherwise regarding 8-9 months difference, then fans will instantly figure something fishy going on here, he needs to keep some information to himself until he publishes it in next books. Jon is listed Eddard Stark's bastard son in all books' official after-story index pages. Does not make it true though.

The 8-9 months difference is not from the series but from a SSM in response to someone who was trying to figure out the timeline of AGOT and Jon's and Dany's name days. The person thought they were about a year apart, which GRRM narrowed down to 8-9 months "or thereabouts". So, no, fans didn't have a clue that it was supposed to be 8-9 months, it was information that GRRM yielded even though he didn't have to.

Plus, it's not like GRRM lies in his answers. If he wants to keep something secret, he goes "keep reading".

3 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

"Officially" Dany is 8-9 months younger than Jon and she was born on Dragonstone, but that is all according to her - the information she received from Viserys, very unreliable narrator based on everything we know about him.

You're forgetting that there was the whole garrison of Dragonstone who then surrendered to Stannis, do you claim that none of them had an idea that a baby was born to Rhaella? Or that the spies who were keeping an eye on Viserys and Darry wouldn't have reported a mysterious girl who is claimed to be Viserys' sister but no-one had ever heard about her?

Really, "the unreliable narrator" theorising sometimes goes way too far.

[Scorpion92]

21 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

The 8-9 months difference is not from the series but from a SSM in response to someone who was trying to figure out the timeline of AGOT and Jon's and Dany's name days. The person thought they were about a year apart, which GRRM narrowed down to 8-9 months "or thereabouts". So, no, fans didn't have a clue that it was supposed to be 8-9 months, it was information that GRRM yielded even though he didn't have to.

Plus, it's not like GRRM lies in his answers. If he wants to keep something secret, he goes "keep reading".

You're forgetting that there was the whole garrison of Dragonstone who then surrendered to Stannis, do you claim that none of them had an idea that a baby was born to Rhaella? Or that the spies who were keeping an eye on Viserys and Darry wouldn't have reported a mysterious girl who is claimed to be Viserys' sister but no-one had ever heard about her?

Really, "the unreliable narrator" theorising sometimes goes way too far.

1) I know that 8-9 months difference was George's response in one of the interviews. My point is, if someone asked George what is the timeline between Jon and Dany's births and he replied "Keep reading", that is already a giveaway to fans that there is something going on behind the scenes, otherwise, George would not have kept it a secret. He NEEDED to lie at that point in order to let it go unnoticed.

2) I understand it very clearly, and I do not deny that there WAS a baby at Dragonstone. But who is to confirm that THAT baby survived one of the worst storms of living memory? That garrison definitely can confirm that the baby was born, but after that, in Braavos? Maybe the baby died during voyage? And Braavos' weather is not an ideal place for an infant baby.

And who is to say what was the purpose of Willem Darry and Oberyn Martell's meeting in Sealord of Braavos' presence? Ashara was Elia's handmaiden and danced with Oberyn at Harrenhal, plus Arthur Dayne and Lewyn Martell were Aerys' Kingsguards, so there is a big connection between Daynes and Martells. I would not be surprised if Martells were involved in baby swapping if, for example, disguised Ashara comes to seek out Oberyn's help (who already traveled a lot in Free Cities and familiar with continent). Yes, everyone thinks that the reason for meeting was Arianne and Viserys' betrothal, but Doran and Oberyn are much more cunning than they lead on.  

Of course, I might be very wrong about this, and I do not rule out such possibility, but I am very skeptic about Dany's background, and I believe there is a reason why George included that "lemongate" memories for us fans.

[Voice]

21 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Benjen didn't get sent to the Wall. He volunteered. Part of Meera's story is how interested the young wolf pup is in the guys from the Night's Watch and what they have to say. He waited until the war was done (he was the Stark in Winterfell while Ned was off fighting), and Ned was established with a son and a healthy wife who would most likely bear him more sons, and then he joined the Watch as he'd planned to. There's not even a tiny iota of indication that Benjen had to take the black. 

 

She danced with Oberyn, who is known for fathering bastard girls. Just saying.

I think Benjen's volunteerism is on the mark, but I wish we had something more concrete than Meera and Jojen's story to base it upon.

 

And agreed re: Oberyn.

 

 

21 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

What's important about Ashara's mystery death/child/scandal etc in a plot sense is that she's a literary foil for Jon's parentage. And I don't think we need to search more behind it really.

For a first time reader (not a re-reader) who doesn't go looking for theories and doesn't have to wait years and years in between books, Jon's supposed to be the son of Ned and a mystery mother. Both Wylla and Ashara are presented as foils for the truth to the reader from very early on. Meera's tale about shy Ned not daring to ask Ashara for a dance at the HH Tourney, Barristan's "dishonored" and "turn to a Stark" and "dead child" further serve to keep the reader in believing that that Ned and Ashara had some affair and that she's Jon's mother. 

If we ever learn more about Ashara and her child it will imo turn out to be completely irrelevant, if she even had a child, and the father is no-one truly significant for the plot. Ashara and her child are foils. That's why she's truly dead imo.

 

 

I think it's premature to label Ashara a literary foil. She could end up being Jon's mother. She could end up being Dany's mother. She could end up being Aegon's mother. She could end up being a much needed sacrifice for some ritual. Who knows.

Ned could be a literary foil for Jon's father, or not. We do not yet know.

It should be noted that Dany is nothing like Aerys, and happens to look a lot like Rhaegar & Ashara. And Ashara was Rhaegar's best friend's sister, from a kingdom with a custom of keeping paramours.

And take note of Rhaegar's gaze:

Quote

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

 

Dany looks like the two most beautiful people of the previous generation: Rhaegar and Ashara. In the scene above, Rhaegar has just sired his son, Aegon, who is the prince that was promised. He goes on to say that there must be one more and the dragon has three heads.

Aegon the Conqueror had two sister-wives.

Thus Rhaegar believes there must be one more, because his son, Aegon, has but one sister at this time.

I propose that Rhaegar looked up and into the doorway and saw the beautiful Ashara Dayne, Elia's lady-in-waiting, and spoke these words to her:  "There must be one more. The dragon has three heads."

Dany is standing in her mother's shoes.

 

I might also add that Dareon's song fits no one as well as Rhaegar+Ashara:

Quote

He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead.

 

Autodefenestration isn't the most common of deaths in ASOIAF. And we only have one such instance that occurs on the heels of the death of a prince.

 

 

18 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Dany was born 8-9 months after Jon. I.e., long after Ashara's death.

 

This doesn't work.

We do not know when Ashara died, relative to Jon's birth.

 

9 hours ago, MizasterJ said:

Dany's origin is a bundle of confusion, contradictions, and mysteries. While the true intention of this post is not to call into question Dany's parentage, it is about unfolding the mystery of Ashara, while the two could be connected, I believe its too much of a long shot.

I am leaning rather heavily towards the Targ twins theory. Rhaegar had not 1, but two secret children, and they were probably swapped.

I believe Ned & Ashara felt they had an obligation to protect these children, whether or not they were actually theirs. 

 

It isn't as much of a long shot as you might think. I could not agree more that Dany's origin is rather contradictory. I highly recommend you check out this thread on the topic.

 

 

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

The only supposed contradiction is that frikkin' lemon tree in Braavos, and even that can be explained without twisting Dany's origin into a pretzel. Plus, the statement about approximately 8-9 months' age difference comes directly from GRRM.

 

That lemon tree is fairly odd though, isn't it? And it is far from being the only contradiction. For example, why does Dany speak perfect High Valyrian, and why doesn't Viserys?

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

1) I know that 8-9 months difference was George's response in one of the interviews. My point is, if someone asked George what is the timeline between Jon and Dany's births and he replied "Keep reading", that is already a giveaway to fans that there is something going on behind the scenes, otherwise, George would not have kept it a secret. He NEEDED to lie at that point in order to let it go unnoticed.

2) I understand it very clearly, and I do not deny that there WAS a baby at Dragonstone. But who is to confirm that THAT baby survived one of the worst storms of living memory? That garrison definitely can confirm that the baby was born, but after that, in Braavos? Maybe the baby died during voyage? And Braavos' weather is not an ideal place for an infant baby.

And who is to say what was the purpose of Willem Darry and Oberyn Martell's meeting in Sealord of Braavos' presence? Ashara was Elia's handmaiden and danced with Oberyn at Harrenhal, plus Arthur Dayne and Lewyn Martell were Aerys' Kingsguards, so there is a big connection between Daynes and Martells. I would not be surprised if Martells were involved in baby swapping if, for example, disguised Ashara comes to seek out Oberyn's help (who already traveled a lot in Free Cities and familiar with continent). Yes, everyone thinks that the reason for meeting was Arianne and Viserys' betrothal, but Doran and Oberyn are much more cunning than they lead on.  

Of course, I might be very wrong about this, and I do not rule out such possibility, but I am very skeptic about Dany's background, and I believe there is a reason why George included that "lemongate" memories for us fans.

No. GRRM absolutely didn't need to lie. His SSM reply to the timeline issues is pretty extensive, he goes about a pain in the ass of the switching PoVs and messy timelines, he could have told the person that there will be some details released later that would eventually refine the timeline, and that would be it. No need to lie.

Plus, as a matter of fact, GRRM stated "I am no liar" once, so claiming that he lied in order to mislead the readers is pretty offensive.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

@BalerionTheCat Probably, there is no mistery here:

Quote

Once, serving on the Wall was honor and a sign of selfless devotion to duty, with many knights, honorable men, and nobles taking the black voluntarily. The Night's Watch is now often seen only as a way to avoid punishment, suitable less for knights than for the dregs of Westeros. These men are salvaged from dungeons by traveling recruiters known as wandering crows. Disgraced nobles, bastards, and even the unwanted legitimate offspring of nobles are “encouraged” to take the black, making many of today’s Watch a surly and dissatisfied lot.

So said WIKI. I guess the Starks still consider the NW a honorable pass for a knight and benjen joined the NW because he felt like this. With Ned having  several sons, Benjen won't inherit much.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Any theory which relies upon calling the author a Liar is a non starter. 

 

[MizasterJ]

As much as I hate to oppose the idea of Ashara & Rhaegar being the parents of either Jon, or Dany,I just have to point out that the song Dareon sings in Braavos about the woman throwing herself from the tower over distraught of her prince...Thats a reference to the bael the bard story, which is in itself a reflection of Rhaegar & Lyanna. In the song, the girl that fell from the tower was a Stark, hence a reference to Lyanna's death. It is interesting though that it parallels Ashara quite literally and metaphorically if you consider her lover to have been her "prince" as in the way any woman might romanticize her significant other. Except that she wasn't a Stark and none of her would be suitors could be described as a bard save for Rhaegar. But again, we have Rhaegar paired with Lyanna making it pretty difficult at least from a time frame perspective for him to get with Ashara as well, especially due to war breaking out.

For me Ashara being the mother of Young Griff without Rhaegar being the father is much more likely than Jon, or Dany being her child.

Illyrio & Varys could just be pushing him towards the throne because he is the only candidate that matches in look and age, and once I&V have control of the throne..who knows what their true plan will be. Now I admit that it would be much more satisfying if Aegon was a blackfrye,which is why I am very much open to other ideas regarding Ashara...Quaithe?

. 

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

13 hours ago, Voice said:

<snip

This doesn't work.

We do not know when Ashara died, relative to Jon's birth.

 

Actually we do. It's known that she didn't hurl herself from that tower until after Ned had returned Dawn, thus it was after Jon was born. Barristan's musings on the subject give us that information. What's not known is whether the alleged suicide took place while Ned was there or after he had left to return to Winterfell.