The dragons must die

[Wolfbynature]

Why must the dragons die? Some time ago, I forgot where, I read an interview with G.R.R. Martin. He gave some fact about the Ending of the Song of Ice and Fire away. No details, but that he wants to create a satisfying, bittersweet ending just like Tolkin did with his Lord of the Rings.

I had this facts since then in my mind. First I thought, Martin was announcing the dead of anouter beloved character, maybe Daenerys, Jon or Arya or all of them together.

But that will not create this magic Lord of the Rings feeling at the end.

What is so bittersweet in Lord of the Rings? The good side had won. The evil side has been defeated but - BUT all Magic is lost. The evil and also the good one. There were times of peace and prosperity ahead, but only for man.

I think this is what G.R.R. plans for the ending. There will be the ultimate clash between ice and fire. This two forces of nature will annihilate each other and the impact of man is what will give the scale the dicisive kick.

The white walker - gone, the children of the forrest - gone. The giants - gone, maybe Jon and Daenerys united but without her Dragons, they´re gone too. And without them, magic has left Westeros, Essos and the whole World. Wild Fire will be a green soup, that will not burn any better than the sum of it´s ingredients.

All what is left ist the World of mankind. Winter will follow Summer in a steady and predictable way.

What do you think, am I right?

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

There's a good chance you're right. It kills me, but the Gray Rats will probably win. I wonder if this means we'll witness the extinction of any other mythological beasts (ice dragons/krakens/unicorns/etc.)

[khal drogon]

I think this too. All the dragons and direwolves would be dead after the end. That would be bittersweet for me for sure.

But doubt magic will be gone. Will the Starks lose their warging powers? Will Bran, a magical being die? 

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

Bleh I don't like that kind of ending 

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

I agree 100%. 

It will propably be a lot more gruesome than in Tolkien. The others and the children will not just fade into the sunset like the elves did, they will all have to be killed. But I think the seasons are something different, something bigger. We already had a timeperiod of at least a century without dragons and magic, the glass candles just recently started working again. But the seasons never changed. 

I don´t think anything supernatural will be gone. Warging/Telepathy are likely genetic, not just magical, just like wildfire is basically science. But in the great scheme of things, Westeros will be much more like our world. Whatever has been holding it back from progressing out of the middle ages will be gone.

[khal drogon]

49 minutes ago, Ser Tristan Flowers said:

I agree 100%. 

It will propably be a lot more gr uesome than in Tolkien. The others and the children will not just fade into the sunset like the elves did, they will all have to be killed. But I think the seasons are something different, something bigger. We already had a timeperiod of at least a century without dragons and magic, the glass candles just recently started working again. But the seasons never changed. 

I don´t think anything supernatural will be gone. Warging/Telepathy are likely genetic, not just magical, just like wildfire is basically science. But in the great scheme of things, Westeros will be much more like our world. Whatever has been holding it back from progressing out of the middle ages will be gone.

Warging and greenseeing is magic though. So was wildfire and Valyrian Steel making. If they are not magical then dragons are just beasts. 

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

3 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Warging and greenseeing is magic though. So was wildfire and Valyrian Steel making. If they are not magical then dragons are just beasts. 

Well obviously there´s something magical about it, that doesn´t mean it´s not also genetic, since not everybody can do it and it favours certain families and bloodlines.  And we have no clue how wildfire is produced.

My point is I don´t think all magic will be gone since magic is a part of nature in this world.

[Nocturne]

2 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

Why must the dragons die? Some time ago, I forgot where, I read an interview with G.R.R. Martin. He gave some fact about the Ending of the Song of Ice and Fire away. No details, but that he wants to create a satisfying, bittersweet ending just like Tolkin did with his Lord of the Rings.

I had this facts since then in my mind. First I thought, Martin was announcing the dead of anouter beloved character, maybe Daenerys, Jon or Arya or all of them together.

But that will not create this magic Lord of the Rings feeling at the end.

What is so bittersweet in Lord of the Rings? The good side had won. The evil side has been defeated but - BUT all Magic is lost. The evil and also the good one. There were times of peace and prosperity ahead, but only for man.

I think this is what G.R.R. plans for the ending. There will be the ultimate clash between ice and fire. This two forces of nature will annihilate each other and the impact of man is what will give the scale the dicisive kick.

The white walker - gone, the children of the forrest - gone. The giants - gone, maybe Jon and Daenerys united but without her Dragons, they´re gone too. And without them, magic has left Westeros, Essos and the whole World. Wild Fire will be a green soup, that will not burn any better than the sum of it´s ingredients.

All what is left ist the World of mankind. Winter will follow Summer in a steady and predictable way.

What do you think, am I right?

I really hope this is not the case, and he just doesn't simply copy paste LOTR universe. I understand that Westeros and the world itself cannot be stuck in the middle ages forever, but what if this is the story where magic helps progress the world in the end, not the other way around?

Most likely it will not though, the main reason for this is that there's no focus on wizzard, like anywhere. Instead we have the citadel that's like exactly the opposite.

 

[Wolfbynature]

There are another reasons why the Dragons must die. But they are not as compelling. First, Dragons under full control of Daenerys are like Superman without Kryptonite - boring.

Ok they look much better, but without serious opponent, the are the coffin nail to any bit of suspense. Hey another "Field of fire" who thought about that?

Suspense needs a serious opponent to the dragons. And serious means SERIOUS! A opponent that could kill Dragons.

Second, restored Targaryan rule with dragons is a full step back and not forward. This does not make sense to me.

 

But you are right, even with dead Dragons, some kind of Magig may survive. But I doubt that G.R.R. has that in mind because it´s not bitter enough. We are not talking about a real world, we are talking about the intension of G.R.R Martin.

[rhoynestar]

Probably true. Have been saying for some time that GRRM is showing signs of pulling a Tolkien and bringing about the waning of magic and its influence in the world. He may change his mind, however.

The interesting thing is we don't know how far the "wane" of magic will progress. Dragons I can see dying out, at least in Westeros and the part of Essos ASOIAF focuses on. As some have mentioned it is a "step backward" to have a ruling dynasty primarily relying on the power of dragons to defeat human soldiers, so to "step forward" (the inevitable course of modernity) dragons will likely disappear. Other forms of practicing magic, such as spells and sorcery, and glass candles, apparently see their power wane when dragons die out for a while, so it's likely they will go out too. And the WW will just have to be defeated for humans to survive.

But the powers used by religions, such as deities responding to blood sacrifice, resurrection, flaming swords (Beric), Faceless Men and their facechanging, even greensight and skinchanging, these things I don't know. Maybe if other sources of magic die out these will gradually disappear too. Or maybe they will live on in some isolated cases, when a particularly powerful/faithful practicioner (priest or such) is able to call it up again. 

Also if dragons disappear, what does that do for Dany and Targ rule in Westeros? Dany's authority will be much weaker if she has no dragons; she will have to consolidate power by other means before/after dragons are lost in order to hold onto power, which she may or may not pull off. If GRRM is going to bring about the end of dragons we might also see the end of a Targ dynasty and the magic in Old Valyria, or a modified dynasty with Targ blood but much more human and not linked to dragons. Possibly Jon is a candidate for the Iron Throne in that sense as well.

 

 

 

[RobbTheBoss]

LotR is written like a fictional prehistory (kinda like Conan for example). This is all at the end all of the magic had to disappear.
This is not the case (I think) for asoiaf. I do believe dragons, children and many other magical creatures may day out, not all of the magic will.
Martin also mentioned that the season will not be so long anymore .

[spauldo17]

I agree with you but only to an extent.  Even if "magic" must leave the world I don't think that impacts the dragons.  The dragons are just beasts like any other animal, there is nothing inherently magic about them. 

Making the children disappear would be an empty gesture, because in the beginning of the series they are already effectively disappeared.  they live underground beyond the wall, nobody ever sees them.  So it doesn't seem like a big deal if they disappear.

Maybe at the end the maesters do win and dispel all magic, but in the GoT world I don't think there are as many magical things as we think.

[Wolfbynature]

Maybe I am wrong, but then, what ist this Lord of the Rings like bittersweetness, that GRR want to create? The vanishing of the dragons and of all magic would fit perfectly. In my opinion better then leaving the iron thron unseated or killing major players.

[Wolfbynature]

You are right, the children of the forrest are nearly already gone. But they are only mentioned as example. Maybe not all of the magic creatures will die imediately. Nor was this the case in Lord ot the Rings after the final battle.

But after the Dragons, their vitality is gone and from this day on they will fade away. The world becomes more and more normal. Something like that.

[YOVMO]

10 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

Why must the dragons die? Some time ago, I forgot where, I read an interview with G.R.R. Martin. He gave some fact about the Ending of the Song of Ice and Fire away. No details, but that he wants to create a satisfying, bittersweet ending just like Tolkin did with his Lord of the Rings.

I had this facts since then in my mind. First I thought, Martin was announcing the dead of anouter beloved character, maybe Daenerys, Jon or Arya or all of them together.

But that will not create this magic Lord of the Rings feeling at the end.

What is so bittersweet in Lord of the Rings? The good side had won. The evil side has been defeated but - BUT all Magic is lost. The evil and also the good one. There were times of peace and prosperity ahead, but only for man.

I think this is what G.R.R. plans for the ending. There will be the ultimate clash between ice and fire. This two forces of nature will annihilate each other and the impact of man is what will give the scale the dicisive kick.

The white walker - gone, the children of the forrest - gone. The giants - gone, maybe Jon and Daenerys united but without her Dragons, they´re gone too. And without them, magic has left Westeros, Essos and the whole World. Wild Fire will be a green soup, that will not burn any better than the sum of it´s ingredients.

All what is left ist the World of mankind. Winter will follow Summer in a steady and predictable way.

What do you think, am I right?

Not just the dragons. Valar Murghis. Literally.

[Springwatch]

I also agree with the OP. If the dragons live on, the story can never end, because the dragons are so powerful and their Targ masters are so erratic - we'd know dramatic events are just round the corner and there would be no sense of a conclusion.

[Wolfbynature]

Another gess whats the fate of the dragons.

They are the hubris of house Targaryen. They are both greatness and doom.

The greatness is easy to understand. But they are also doom. Why?

To marry siblings is an unhealty custom. But essential, if the ability to control dragons is assiated with the purity of the bloodline.

Hence, House Targaryan has two choices. To intermarry with the lokal westeros great Houses, with the perspective of loosing the ability to ride dragons or to maintain the unhealthy habit of incest, which leads to madness and probably extinction. No lineage can survive endless incest.

Or with other words, to keep their dragons or to abandon them.

Maybe the dragons survive, but when Dany realises (or is counseled by Tyrion) what it means to have them, she decides to send them away.
That will be heartbreaking.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I do believe that the dragons have to die but not for the reasons you have mentioned. I believe that both the Others and the Dragons are enemies of the humanity. That is why I believe that in order for the balance two come both extremities have to be exterminated.

[Lion of the West]

On 2016-07-18 at 8:54 AM, Wolfbynature said:

Why must the dragons die? Some time ago, I forgot where, I read an interview with G.R.R. Martin. He gave some fact about the Ending of the Song of Ice and Fire away. No details, but that he wants to create a satisfying, bittersweet ending just like Tolkin did with his Lord of the Rings.

I had this facts since then in my mind. First I thought, Martin was announcing the dead of anouter beloved character, maybe Daenerys, Jon or Arya or all of them together.

But that will not create this magic Lord of the Rings feeling at the end.

What is so bittersweet in Lord of the Rings? The good side had won. The evil side has been defeated but - BUT all Magic is lost. The evil and also the good one. There were times of peace and prosperity ahead, but only for man.

I think this is what G.R.R. plans for the ending. There will be the ultimate clash between ice and fire. This two forces of nature will annihilate each other and the impact of man is what will give the scale the dicisive kick.

The white walker - gone, the children of the forrest - gone. The giants - gone, maybe Jon and Daenerys united but without her Dragons, they´re gone too. And without them, magic has left Westeros, Essos and the whole World. Wild Fire will be a green soup, that will not burn any better than the sum of it´s ingredients.

All what is left ist the World of mankind. Winter will follow Summer in a steady and predictable way.

What do you think, am I right?

Sounds reasonable and I really hope that it never happens. I really, really don't want to witness the end of the Westeros I've come to love so much.

[TheMachine]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I do believe that the dragons have to die but not for the reasons you have mentioned. I believe that both the Others and the Dragons are enemies of the humanity. That is why I believe that in order for the balance two come both extremities have to be exterminated.

This sounds a bit like the Force vs. Darkside to me. I like it!