how come old-Nan know so much

[gregg22]

1 hour ago, spauldo17 said:

 You have displayed an ad hominum fallacy, attacking the poster rather than the argument.  It's a classic tactic of someone who has nothing of import left to add. 

 

Point of order: its actually ad hominem fallacy. If you are going to try to use obscure words and phrases to sound smart you really have to nail it. Thanks for the definition though.

See what I did there? I could have called you recherché, or even a sesquipedalian, but we all prefer regular conversation here.

 

[cgrav]

Maybe someone should start an official wang measurement thread to keep the topic confined? Suffice it to say that this exchange is not advancing the discussion.

 

anyway.... 

Someone earlier said "literary device", which, while often a cop-out explanation, makes sense in regard to characters introduced so early in the story. Old Nan represents a foil to Maester Luwen. She introduces the main characters and the reading audience to the old, traditional "secret" knowledge, while Luwin is of course the new culture of knowledge. She doesn't need a specific background or relationship to other characters. She is there simply to let everyone know that the modern Westeros is not far removed from the time of folklore and magic, and that it lives on in some people. Example: the Ghost of High Heart, who visits the old gods and is compared to Old Nan's appearance by Arya.

 

[Brother Seamus]

6 hours ago, cgrav said:

And do we have any confirmation of what happened to Old Nan when Winterfell was taken? There's some implication that she may have been taken back to the Dreadfort, but I can't find anything specific. 

I've wondered if she's still alive, because she's never mentioned as being dead. I think there's a reference to various unidentified women and children being taken to the dreadfort but no reference to Nan, IIRC.

I doubt there's anything mystical or supernatural about her, she's just a repository for folk knowledge of the old north. I do hope she reappears and plays some helpful role at some point though.

[cgrav]

29 minutes ago, Brother Seamus said:

I've wondered if she's still alive, because she's never mentioned as being dead. I think there's a reference to various unidentified women and children being taken to the dreadfort but no reference to Nan, IIRC.

That's all I could find, too. And I assume Dreadfort =  dead. But her lack of specific mention has my hopes up that she suddenly shows up with some awesome revelations later. Maybe it's just gentler to think Faceless Nan than believe she's dead. Or maybe she's secretly Red Nan indoctrinating Bran into R'hllorism early on. Those are both cooler than dead Nan.

[Prince of the North]

4 minutes ago, cgrav said:

That's all I could find, too. And I assume Dreadfort =  dead. But her lack of specific mention has my hopes up that she suddenly shows up with some awesome revelations later. Maybe it's just gentler to think Faceless Nan than believe she's dead. Or maybe she's secretly Red Nan indoctrinating Bran into R'hllorism early on. Those are both cooler than dead Nan.

Nah!  Old Nan is really a Child of the Forest in disguise.  That's why she's been droppin' all that knowledge on the Stark kids all these years.  She's been getting them ready for the upcoming Battle for the Dawn all this time.  It's also how she can live so long.

And, hopefully, so there's no misunderstanding of my intent here...

[LiveFirstDieLater]

10 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

. 

She is kind of like a teacher. She says to Bran that she could tell him the story of Brandon the builder because it's his favourite. Bran actually denies this and it may have been another Brandon's favourite. What if it was actually Brans favourite in another past timeloop?

This is interesting, I always assumed that she just knew more about the story than Bran, and that the story she tells:

"Oh, my sweet summer child," Old Nan said quietly, "what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods."

"You mean the Others," Bran said querulously. 

"The Others," Old Nan agreed. "Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks." Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?"

And she goes on to tell the story of the Last Hero... I always assumed that's because Bran the Builder was the Last Hero, not that Nan was confused...

[cgrav]

28 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Nah!  Old Nan is really a Child of the Forest in disguise.  That's why she's been droppin' all that knowledge on the Stark kids all these years.  She's been getting them ready for the upcoming Battle for the Dawn all this time.  It's also how she can live so long.

And, hopefully, so there's no misunderstanding of my intent here...

So it's settled. Old Nan is a Red priestess conspiring with the Children of the Forest/3ER/Coldhands to make sure Bran fulfills his time loop and locates his secret cousin, Azor Ahai. And of course this conspiracy originates with Bran himself because he had to travel back in time to make the present happen.

[Prince of the North]

5 hours ago, cgrav said:

So it's settled. Old Nan is a Red priestess conspiring with the Children of the Forest/3ER/Coldhands to make sure Bran fulfills his time loop and locates his secret cousin, Azor Ahai. And of course this conspiracy originates with Bran himself because he had to travel back in time to make the present happen.

Yep.  That's about the size of it!

And, of course, Bran is his own great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great...well, you get the idea - grandfather

[Makk]

There could be something more about her but none of the less obvious ideas presented here sound convincing to me. I think she was added to the story largely to introduce the reader to historical information and also to show how the north is changing under Andal influence. It mirrors the decline of the nightswatch and the shift in focus from the Others to the Wildlings.

Not everyone has to, or should, have a secret identity or be more than they appear. If she does tie in any more I think it will be pretty straight forward and have something to do with Hodor or an event around Winterfell in the last 100 years.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

15 hours ago, cgrav said:

 

edit: just thought that if Old Nan is a wildling, maybe it's why she won't use regal titles. 

I begun a thread a while back but it never took any bites sadly. I talk about Nan being theorised as a Wildling. Check it out if you are interested in the topic. I'll say though, I try to find evidence against it, not for it but check it out if you fancy a read. 

@Seams I'll invite you to check it out to if you like mate.

 

[Lady Noble]

No name calling. I think we can all agree that at one point or another someone has said or thought something that seemed so ridiculous, but I'm sure we've all said or thought equally ridiculous things.

(For the longest time I thought sandwich was spelled sandwitch so you catch my drift, lol.)

Someone can have a far out theory and it doesn't have to be dumb... Can't it just be far out? ;).

Old Nan would not approve of the direction this thread has taken... 

[Dorian Martell]

On 7/19/2016 at 7:58 AM, cgrav said:

Maybe Old Nan's a wildling. Or has Children of the Forest blood, like the ghost of High Heart.

I have always thought this. She was a wildling a la Osha, in service to house stark after she was captured 

On 7/19/2016 at 11:14 AM, gregg22 said:

Point of order: its actually ad hominem fallacy. If you are going to try to use obscure words and phrases to sound smart you really have to nail it. Thanks for the definition though.

See what I did there? I could have called you recherché, or even a sesquipedalian, but we all prefer regular conversation here.

A man after my own heart 

[PrinceHenryris]

Fun Topic!

I actually wrote a paper about something similar years ago.  This was way before the ubiquitous internet so if it survives, it's probably only on a floppy disk somewhere or maybe a hard copy sitting in the bottom of some box in a storage locker.

The paper was a comparison between Herodotus and Thucydides.  Herodotus was willing to quote legends while Thucydides was factual.  I won't bore you folks with a long explanation, but I think it's relevant to say that Old Nan, like Herodotus, keeps the legends alive while the Maesters, like Thucydides only deal in what they can see.

[Macgregor of the North]

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

I have always thought this. She was a wildling a la Osha, in service to house stark after she was captured 

A man after my own heart 

I'm not disputing this notion outright so hopefully it doesn't come across that way and any following discussion gets silly and offensive as it regularly does on these forums.

But can you explain why you think this? 

If Nan was captured it means she never left the Wildlings on bad terms yeah? So why does she have such an utterly terrible view of her own free folk? She despises them if you go by the text. 

Also, how do you think she was captured, under what circumstances and by whom? 

Plus, while its no 100% way of proving she is not a Wildling, I think the dark wings dark words thread does help to debunk it slightly more.

 

[Dorian Martell]

33 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I'm not disputing this notion outright so hopefully it doesn't come across that way and any following discussion gets silly and offensive as it regularly does on these forums.

But can you explain why you think this? 

If Nan was captured it means she never left the Wildlings on bad terms yeah? So why does she have such an utterly terrible view of her own free folk? She despises them if you go by the text. 

Also, how do you think she was captured, under what circumstances and by whom? 

Plus, while its no 100% way of proving she is not a Wildling, I think the dark wings dark words thread does help to debunk it slightly more.

 

I think it because of her stories. she has a lot of knowledge via story and Old tradition that you hear from wildlings. and she has a general distain for the watch. it is pretty crackpot, but since we do not know her origins, we can see parts that fit. She would have been taken into servitude a long time ago.   

[Clegane'sPup]

Nan was going to tell Bran the story about a crow   “I know a story about a crow.” Unfortunately Bran was not in the mood to hear anymore stories.  Since Bran didn’t want to hear anymore stories, I the reader don’t get to read the story about the crow. If I read the context in chapter it appears to me she is placating Bran.

"Crows are all liars," Old Nan agreed, from the chair where she sat doing her needlework. "I know a story about a crow." "I don't want any more stories," Bran snapped, his voice petulant.

Notice Bran says hearth tales in the below quote. When it’s cold & snowy what better way to spend your time but around the hearth telling tales and sharing stories with visitors or strangers needing lodging or the servants other Lords have brought with them or information brought to WF by the NW. Entertainment.

He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.

In the next one she tells Bran about KL. The dragon head skulls had been removed after Robert took over the IT. In order for Nan to know about the skulls on the walls at KL she was either there or someone told her about it.

His father would be the Hand of the King, and they were going to live in the red castle at King's Landing, the castle the Dragonlords had built. Old Nan said there were ghosts there, and dungeons where terrible things had been done, and dragon heads on the walls. It gave Bran a shiver just to think of it, but he was not afraid.

Why does she knows so much? I would say Martin uses her to pass on the legends and oral histories to the reader.

 

Nan came to WF as a wet nurse for Rickard’s older half brother, Brandon.

Rickard’s mother was a Locke.

Brandon’s mother was a Glover.

Brandon died age 3 due to a summer chill and for some yet unknown reasons Nan stayed on at WF with her own children with no mention of a husband. Don’t know if she brought all her children with her or whether she birthed some of them at WF.

Nan had come to the castle as a wet nurse for a Brandon Stark whose mother had died birthing him. He had been an older brother of Lord Rickard, Bran's grandfather, or perhaps a younger brother, or a brother to Lord Rickard's father. Sometimes Old Nan told it one way and sometimes another. In all the stories the little boy died at three of a summer chill, but Old Nan stayed on at Winterfell with her own children. She had lost both her sons to the war when King Robert won the throne, and her grandson was killed on the walls of Pyke during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion. Her daughters had long ago married and moved away and died. All that was left of her own blood was Hodor, the simpleminded giant who worked in the stables, but Old Nan just lived on and on, doing her needlework and telling her stories.

If Nan came to wet nurse Rickard’s older half brother and Rickard's birth date is based between 230 & 249. Making Rickard’s age at death between 33-52.  Me the reader doesn’t know how old Nan was when she arrived at WF.

She’s been in WF long enough to hear all the old tales and I don’t know how old she was when she got to WF, nor do I know from whence she came. She knew the tale of the dragon skulls hanging on the walls at KL though.

My guess is that most people who live at WF perform some type of service to pay for their keep. Nan’s function would most likely be as caretaker to Stark children, as in nanny. Eddard told Bran that Nan was old even when he was a boy.

 

The mystery for me is that after Brandon, Rickard’s older half brother died , Nan, stayed in WF and raised her two sons & numerous daughters and now only her grandson Hodor is left. Supposedly two sons died during Robert’s Rebellion. A grandson died during the Greyjoy rebellion. Her daughters moved south and died. Hodor is supposedly all that is left. How old do you think Hodor is, maybe about the same age as Eddard or older?

After Brandon’s death at the age of 3, who mostly likely was off the teat, why did the Starks keep her around? Rickard had no siblings other than his deceased half brother Brandon. Why would Nan stay on at WF after the boy she was brought there to nurse was off the teat and died of a summer chill? She stayed there raised at least 4 children, who produced at least 2 grandsons. There is enough mystery there.

 

Martin’s description of Nan:  She was a very ugly old woman, Bran thought spitefully; shrunken and wrinkled, almost blind, too weak to climb stairs, with only a few wisps of white hair left to cover a mottled pink scalp. No one really knew how old she was, but his father said she'd been called Old Nan even when he was a boy.

She was old. I mean old old, and remember this, each 70-100 year old person you come across, is a living history book who can with the proper motivation tell stories and tales of times long past. So I will give Martin thumbs up for including Nan in his tale.

[Macgregor of the North]

On 23 July 2016 at 11:32 AM, Dorian Martell said:

I think it because of her stories. she has a lot of knowledge via story and Old tradition that you hear from wildlings. and she has a general distain for the watch. it is pretty crackpot, but since we do not know her origins, we can see parts that fit. She would have been taken into servitude a long time ago.   

Nans stories and lore cover areas all over Westeros, in the south to. Unusual for a Wildling I suppose.

And I don't think Nan shows genuine disdain for the nights watch. In her stories she always says things like the wall will stand as long as the nights watch stays true etc. Kind of showing she respects their cause and thinks that they are holding true. And I've never heard her bad mouth the watch. She was gonna tell us a story about a crow once which im gutted Bran didn't wanna hear. 

She does once say all crows are liars but this is a strange one and may not mean the watch. I always found it strange myself because Bran doesn't even mention the crow but Nan says crow anyway. Unless he had told her previously but he certainly never mentioned the crow in that exchange between the two.

I agree though that we can always find parts that fit if we place her origin in a certain spot. I look forward to it being cleared up.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Clegane'sPup on when Nan was born I'd hazard a guess at mid 190'sAC. 

After as much research as I could possibly do I think Willam needed the wet nurse around early 210'sAC. 

Nan possibly in later teens, having had at least one child when she arrived. If she had one upon arrival she would have to have had another before Brandon died as she stays on with her 'children'. 

If not, then she had two(maybe more but I don't think so personally) when she arrived.

This may be another thing that points away from Nan being a captured Wildling.

[The Commentator]

There is an old theory that Old Nan can read the data stored on the weirwoods just like a Green Seer can.  If the ability varies greatly among Green Seers, it could be that Old Nan is on the lower end of the talent scale.  It could also be a different talent that allows her to read the memories stored on the trees. 

[Clegane'sPup]

11 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

After as much research as I could possibly do I think Willam needed the wet nurse around early 210'sAC. 

Thanks for clearing that up. I got my Starks mixed up. Never could follow the family tree things.

As to Nan, I don't have a firm opinion how she got there, when she got there or where she came from. All I know is that she was a wet nurse to Brandon. I got no theory. She can be whatever a person wants her to be. She can be a wildling, a person from the North, a person from the South or magical old woman.

There is some media speculation that the readers are supposed to find out why Hodor Hodor's so maybe her back story will be revealed then. I don't believe the time travel stuff. That is a firm opinion.