illinifan Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 The scene where Jon passes judgment on Melisandre has gotten overshadowed by the KitN scene but I think that it might end up being more important to the endgame. Jon sides with Davos over Melisandre even though Mel brought him back to life. He seems horrified that the same god that brought him back demanded the sacrifice of a child. From a utilitarian perspective, Mel is very useful against the White Walkers but the scene suggests that there are things should not be done to win a war and that we should retain a sense of goodness and morality. Davos points out that if R'hllor orders the sacrifice of little girls, that he is evil. And there is a good argument to make that this is the case. What if R'hllor is both against the White Walkers and demands the burning of innocents to defeat them? So Jon saves Westros but burns more Shireens to do so. How is that a good thing? I want Jon to win so the Shireens of Westros will be protected. If he wins but surrenders his humanity and morality, that isn't a victory. So how does this play in the endgame. The story says that the Azor Ahai sacrificed his wife to forge Lightbringer. Let's suppose that Jon is told to sacrifice his wife, Dany, to forge lightbringer and he refuses because there are some sacrifices that aren't to be made. He does this in defiance of R'hllor because what is being asked is evil. Here is an interesting parallel... The binding of Isaac. Abraham's obedience is considered a good thing in the Bible but it is really a disturbing passage of the Bible. What if this sacrifice is defied and Jon says it isn't worth it to win the war and lose his humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Null Infinity Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I read an article saying that there is a possibility of foreshadowing in Melisandre leaving Jon that the death of Jon will be definitive next time, and like you said, I don't know until now who is the good god : R'hllor or the Great Other, if the prophecy of Azor Ahai and lightbringer must repeat itself and he refuses to do so the plot will give us another way to defeat the WW (but overall I think that it's dany is the azor ahai and not Jon, clearly she's the fire in the incoming war and not Jon) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drogonthedread Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 9 hours ago, illinifan said: So how does this play in the endgame. The story says that the Azor Ahai sacrificed his wife to forge Lightbringer. Let's suppose that Jon is told to sacrifice his wife, Dany, to forge lightbringer Or you know AAR did sacrifice her husband and foged lightbringer already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinifan Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 If Dany is the Azor Ahai, then she will be tempted in the same way. Unfortunately, we have seen Dany go down a dark path already so I am not sure she can stop herself. That is what is so interesting about revenge on the show. We aren't supposed to be rooting in favor of it. Dany, Arya, and Sansa all got a pass because they were killing horrible people and in Dany's case, she is superficially doing good things. From the utilitarian perspective, Mel's blood magic and even the Red Wedding did more to end the wars than the revenge killings we have rooted for. Jon hasn't gone down the path yet. He has shown anger and desire for revenge (i.e. the Battle for Winterfell, killing the mutineers), but it still really does affect him. Killing Olly despite it being a justified execution is the final straw for him with the Night's Watch and sets off his entire season's arc. And he retained his moral compass by siding with Davos on Shireen in the Winds of Winter. (Of course the thing Jon needs to learn is how to be a moral ruler without channelling Uncle Ned's stupidity.) As for the gods on the show, I don't think that any are a force for good. I think that both Martin and the showrunners have a negative view of religion in general. R'hllor is on the right side but R'hllor also demands that little girls be burned at the stake with blood magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinifan Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 4 minutes ago, Drogonthedread said: Or you know AAR did sacrifice her husband and foged lightbringer already. Yes. That is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump the Builder Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 i dont completely agree that making sacrifices aren't considered a victory. With the Nissa Nissa situation, as difficult as that must have been for AA to do, it was necessary in order for him to fight the darkness and win the war against the Others. While it may be considered immoral by many for him to sacrifice his wife, I can imagine that he did so in order to win a victory for the greater good. He sacrificed his loved one so that many could survive and that makes him a hero in my books... but perhaps thats only because it actually worked. Stannis looks pretty foolish having sacrificed his daughter and having nothing to show for it. Besides, Stannis made that sacrifice for what he thought was to win the war against the Boltons - which is completely different from doing it in order to win a war against an army of darkness which was threatening the lives of all mankind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinifan Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 What if Stannis' sacrifice had worked? Would that make burning a little girl acceptable? As Davos said, if your god demands the sacrifice of little girls to win a war, then your god is evil. If R'hllor is good, he should be for humanity and against the ice zombies and should not require a sacrifice. The more I think about it the more I suspect that the final test for either Jon, Dany, or both is to not make the sacrifice if that sacrifice harms others. The show has done so much to show the corrosiveness of violence even lawful executions, battle victories for the good guys (i.e. Winterfell), and righteous revenge (Frey pies) to make murder somehow okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onion Hound Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Dany sacrificed her baby for drago, then drago for drogon.....there's been enough sacrifice...Jon won't ever sacrifice anyone or ride a dragon...if that's means he's not aa than so be it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubicante Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 13 hours ago, Trump the Builder said: i dont completely agree that making sacrifices aren't considered a victory. With the Nissa Nissa situation, as difficult as that must have been for AA to do, it was necessary in order for him to fight the darkness and win the war against the Others. While it may be considered immoral by many for him to sacrifice his wife, I can imagine that he did so in order to win a victory for the greater good. He sacrificed his loved one so that many could survive and that makes him a hero in my books... but perhaps thats only because it actually worked. Stannis looks pretty foolish having sacrificed his daughter and having nothing to show for it. Besides, Stannis made that sacrifice for what he thought was to win the war against the Boltons - which is completely different from doing it in order to win a war against an army of darkness which was threatening the lives of all mankind. To make it even worse in the show, the Boltons were not even threatening Stannis until he advanced on them. So basically he sacrificed his daughter to win a battle against house that wasn't even the aggressor. The sacrifice of Shireen by Stannis will be different in the books. The Others will force his hand. This still doesn't justify the act, but at least it's not as ludicrous as what was presented on the show. I think it would be really interesting if Stannis chose to willingly sacrifice himself, but that wouldn't be carrying out the Nissa Nissa story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Sometimes I wonder if Jaime killing Cersei would satisfy a Nissa Nissa/Lightbringer connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump the Builder Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 7 hours ago, Lord Lannister said: Sometimes I wonder if Jaime killing Cersei would satisfy a Nissa Nissa/Lightbringer connection. im not really sure the type of relationship that AA had with Nissa Nissa, but I don't get the same kind of feeling if Jaime were to "sacrifice" Cersei. It seemed to me that Nissa Nissa was an innocent that was sacrificed for a greater good, but killing Cersei would be a great thing for a lot of people in itself - not really making it much of a sacrifice. At this point, even Jaime seems done with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 10 minutes ago, Trump the Builder said: im not really sure the type of relationship that AA had with Nissa Nissa, but I don't get the same kind of feeling if Jaime were to "sacrifice" Cersei. It seemed to me that Nissa Nissa was an innocent that was sacrificed for a greater good, but killing Cersei would be a great thing for a lot of people in itself - not really making it much of a sacrifice. At this point, even Jaime seems done with her. I always got the feeling that Nissa Nissa was more of a personal sacrifice than an innocent sacrifce, but it could be either or both. As for Jaime being done with her, I'm not sure that he is. He knows she's bad for him now, but I think he's like a man with a drug habit and wont be able to stay away once it's in front of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump the Builder Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 2 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said: I always got the feeling that Nissa Nissa was more of a personal sacrifice than an innocent sacrifce, but it could be either or both. As for Jaime being done with her, I'm not sure that he is. He knows she's bad for him now, but I think he's like a man with a drug habit and wont be able to stay away once it's in front of him. you could be right about Nissa Nissa - maybe she wasn't necessarily innocent - i just can't really find much about her in the lore of Westeros to know for sure how their relationship was and how AA even felt about the sacrifice he had to make. i was going purely based on the look that Jaime gave her when he got back to KL and the shock on his face when he saw half the town burning to the ground when he got back from the RIverlands. Maybe its just me being too optimistic, but I'm hoping that he finally gets it and swears her off. It seems like he really wants to turn the corner and do what is right (but keeps coming back to her like u mentioned), BUT I think that him knowing what Cersei did to KL and that Jaime sacrificed his entire reputation to protect it from happening once before may be the straw that finally breaks the camel's back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blondiesnow Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 On 7/19/2016 at 9:16 AM, Trump the Builder said: While it may be considered immoral by many for him to sacrifice his wife, I can imagine that he did so in order to win a victory for the greater good. If you rem back to S1, our favorite Grand Maester said to Ned, "Is it not better sacrifice one for the sake of thousands" (paraphrase) when talking about killing Dany. Ned said no of course. But the point is two-fold. Jon is Ned. He's the guy that sacrifices his life. The guy that runs after his brother on battlefield. He's not his father, but he's more Ned Stark than Robb. He has his heart. The Great Question has always been, "What is honor?" Aemon posed it to Jon. What is honor to the feel of a newborn baby son or a woman's love. Jon has always chosen honor. At every turn. To see all the death and find out the only thing that can stop the Night King, is a sword made of fire — maybe he slays a dragon and it doesn't work. Maybe then he knows it has to be Dany. Fire made flesh. She's pure Targ. So, he has to then again make the choice. A I the sword in the darkness, the protector of realm of men? "Is it not better sacrifice one for the sake of thousands." And he has to do it. That's where illinifan comment is 100% irony foreshadowing. I'll say something crazy. But there is a released image from S6, of Knight King, and a ball of fire. A flame. There is an image inside. Many see it when I point it out. Others think I'm nuts. But they've released images at HBO has hints. And that one is us as Mel, "looking into the flames, best interpreting what we see." But it's Jon, slaying a dragon in the heart. It's going down, one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 On 7/19/2016 at 8:25 PM, Onion Hound said: Dany sacrificed her baby for drago, then drago for drogon.....there's been enough sacrifice...Jon won't ever sacrifice anyone or ride a dragon...if that's means he's not aa than so be it..... Arguably. She certainly sacrificed Mirri Maz Duur to hatch the dragon eggs. Was that righteous punishment of a traitor, or a very dark form of magic which will ultimately rebound on Dany? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Matt Dayne Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 On 7/19/2016 at 11:04 AM, Future Null Infinity said: I read an article saying that there is a possibility of foreshadowing in Melisandre leaving Jon that the death of Jon will be definitive next time, and like you said, I don't know until now who is the good god : R'hllor or the Great Other, if the prophecy of Azor Ahai and lightbringer must repeat itself and he refuses to do so the plot will give us another way to defeat the WW (but overall I think that it's dany is the azor ahai and not Jon, clearly she's the fire in the incoming war and not Jon) I thought banishing Mel was just a means of making Jon vulnerable again to the viewer. I don't expect Jon to die again. If he does I wouldn't expect it until the series finale....and in the last 15/20 mins on top of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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