My biggest problem with Ramsey inspiring fear

[Nocturne]

The guy doesn't have the equivalent of a kings guard with him at all times.

He is hated by a lot of people that serve him.

So how come nobody simply executes him? Would anyway really care if he is dead? Can you think of anyone that would go like: oh fuck no, you killed Ramsey, you bastard!...etc?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Well, he actually doesn't inspire much fear in the books. Other than amongst peasants, serving folk and his "playthings".

Roose having the support of the Iron Throne provides him the initial grudging allegiance of most of the Northern lords. But this is only while they assess the situation and position themselves best before deciding how to act next.

Their greatest ally - Lady Dustin - openly despises Ramsay. And doesn't make any secret about it. If Roose died I expect Ramsay would follow soon after. It is Roose who holds this power structure together, and this only because he is temporarily strong while the rest of the North is in comparative disarray.

 

[Nocturne]

16 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well, he actually doesn't inspire much fear in the books. Other than amongst peasants, serving folk and his "playthings".

Roose having the support of the Iron Throne provides him the initial grudging allegiance of most of the Northern lords. But this is only while they assess the situation and position themselves best before deciding how to act next.

Their greatest ally - Lady Dustin - openly despises Ramsay. And doesn't make any secret about it. If Roose died I expect Ramsay would follow soon after. It is Roose who holds this power structure together, and this only because he is temporarily strong while the rest of the North is in comparative disarray.

 

That's a good point that he hasn't taken the rains yet in the books, but there's tons of foreshadowing on Roose death. At which point he will probably declare himself as warden of the north.

Now when he does that, who will actually support his claim? Nobody.

Also the crown is very weak at the moment, if the northern lords would execute Roose now nobody down south is gonna care..well as long as they say something among the lines: we are still going to be part of the 7 kingdoms, we just hated that bloke. 

Its simply bad story telling in my book, like anything related to the Boltons...they have this larger then life plot armor. That house has somehow lasted trough generations after numerous attempts to destroy the Stark family.

[The Drunkard]

If Roose died and Ramsay just slid into his position with no big fuss that would be bad storytelling but that's probably not going to happen. Dustin hates him and openly insults him, people from the Hornwood lands would hate him, and the Cerwyns, Flints, Tallharts, etc, all probably hate him for what he did outside Winterfell. It's Roose keeping them together and if he goes things should fall apart. 

As to the other northern lords turning on the Boltons: Roose has the largest army, Frey reinforcements, and a number of hostages from many of the northern families held at the Twins. Even if the crown wouldn't care they're not in a good position to turn on Roose.

[Ruhail]

4 hours ago, The Drunkard said:

If Roose died and Ramsay just slid into his position with no big fuss that would be bad storytelling but that's probably not going to happen. Dustin hates him and openly insults him, people from the Hornwood lands would hate him, and the Cerwyns, Flints, Tallharts, etc, all probably hate him for what he did outside Winterfell. It's Roose keeping them together and if he goes things should fall apart. 

As to the other northern lords turning on the Boltons: Roose has the largest army, Frey reinforcements, and a number of hostages from many of the northern families held at the Twins. Even if the crown wouldn't care they're not in a good position to turn on Roose.

This.

[Lord Vance II]

In the books, I would say people more look at him with disdain than fear. He's a bastard off the bat, and that never helped someones cause. Everyone who's anyone in the North has at least heard stories of how sick and vile he is, and as others have mentioned, many houses outright hate him. His unpredictability is what makes people uneasy. 

But you can't just go kill off the heir of one of the most powerful houses in the North. It doesn't matter if Roose doesn't actually care, it wouldn't fly. 

4 hours ago, The Drunkard said:

As to the other northern lords turning on the Boltons: Roose has the largest army, Frey reinforcements, and a number of hostages from many of the northern families held at the Twins

I'm not saying your wrong but it could happen. Roose has the biggest army individually but if Manderly threw his weight in the other houses combined would have more. I don't remember how many Frey men are in the North. And if the Northmen seized top Freys they could probably trade for their people in captivity. Massive risk though, of course. 

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

Ramesy only needs to be feared when you´re in his custody. Apart from torturing and scheming, he´s certainly rather smart, I don´t see any reason why anyone should fear Ramsey. He´s not proven anything as a military commander or warrior and his disregard of allies show a lack of basic understanding of feudal politics.

You just don´t want to be his hostage. Ever.

[Heartofwinter]

The whole concept and idea of fear isn't supposed to be rational to begin with. Why is half the population afraid of spiders when people are 10,000 times their size? People seem more scared of the Dreadfort and the legacy of flaying than they do of Ramsay. People are more afraid of Roose, the only people scared of Ramsay are the ones that he has control of.

[The Drunkard]

25 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

I'm not saying your wrong but it could happen. Roose has the biggest army individually but if Manderly threw his weight in the other houses combined would have more. I don't remember how many Frey men are in the North. And if the Northmen seized top Freys they could probably trade for their people in captivity. Massive risk though, of course. 

Roose has about 4100 men under his own command (3500 from the south + Ramsay's 600) and 2000 Freys, and you'd need almost every northern lord working in tandem to beat that. So it could happen, but it would require a lot of coordination and bravery from all the different lords that I don't think is there. Even with Stannis at the gates with >5000 men they've been unwilling to jump ship.

[Lord Vance II]

2 minutes ago, The Drunkard said:

So it could happen, but it would require a lot of coordination and bravery from all the different lords that I don't think is there.

It's all timing and Manderly is patient. If Roose loses a chunk of his infantry to Stannis and the false beacon it might be enough to spur the Northmen to action. 

[The Drunkard]

1 minute ago, Lord Vance II said:

It's all timing and Manderly is patient. If Roose loses a chunk of his infantry to Stannis and the false beacon it might be enough to spur the Northmen to action. 

That's true, I was more talking about what they'd be willing to do on their own initiative. If it looks like he's going down there's no reason for them to stay loyal.

[Adam Yozza]

36 minutes ago, The Drunkard said:

Roose has about 4100 men under his own command (3500 from the south + Ramsay's 600) and 2000 Freys, and you'd need almost every northern lord working in tandem to beat that. So it could happen, but it would require a lot of coordination and bravery from all the different lords that I don't think is there. Even with Stannis at the gates with >5000 men they've been unwilling to jump ship.

Your numbers about Roose's own Dreadfort troops is a little off. The garrison of Winterfell is 3500 Bolton's and Karstark's, with the majority being Bolton's so maybe 3000. He then has 2000 Frey's, 600 men raised by Ramsay and another 500 Karstark's in Stannis' host.

On the other hand, you have another 500 men from Robb's host, 300 Manderly's, 400 Umber's and an unknown number of Dustin, Tallhart, Cerwyn and Hornwood men. Then you've got 1500 southerners with Stannis, 3000 clansmen, about 1000 from the Mormonts and Glover and another 400 Umber's.

So it's a little more probable that the Bolton's could get ganged up on. I would also say that Manderly has a lot more men in reserve than we've seen, so of the Lords allied with Roose, it he alone joining Stannis could be enough to topple the Flayed Man.

As for the lords not being brave enough to jump ship; Wyman Manderly is working toward putting a Stark back in Winterfell and the other lords, including Lady Dustin, might be on board with that (Great Northern Conspiracy). Whoresbane is only on side with the Bolton's as long as Walder Frey holds the GreatJon (which he no longer does, as Jaime just demanded the transferal of all Frey prisoners to KL). The Frey's are about to get wiped out by the environment (Nightlamps theory) and leaving Ramsay in a blizzard to deal with a host of 5-6000 men with only 600 men of his own. Not to mention that we've seen nothing from Lord Reed yet to indicate where he might be. He's might be arranging for an assassin to take out Roose for all we know.

[Lord Vance II]

1 hour ago, Adam Yozza said:

So it's a little more probable that the Bolton's could get ganged up on. I would also say that Manderly has a lot more men in reserve than we've seen, so of the Lords allied with Roose,

I have no proof, but I've always liked the theory that Manderly's army is camped outside Winterfell, presumably with troops from the other houses too, and the scouts that never come back are being killed by these troops OR they're sending messages out. If there really are a couple thousand Manderly troops on hand, it swings things way more against Roose. 

 

 

[Adam Yozza]

1 hour ago, Lord Vance II said:

I have no proof, but I've always liked the theory that Manderly's army is camped outside Winterfell, presumably with troops from the other houses too, and the scouts that never come back are being killed by these troops OR they're sending messages out. If there really are a couple thousand Manderly troops on hand, it swings things way more against Roose. 

 

 

Entirely possible. I personally believe that Robett Glover has the Manderly army in the Neck with the Reed's, Maege Mormont and his brother Galbart, gathering the remnants of Robb's army that didn't march back North with Roose.