Legal systems in fantasy

[The Marquis de Leech]

I've just finished reading Ravenheart, by David Gemmell, which amongst other other things, featured a courtroom drama in a fantasy setting, with a teacher-turned-lawyer as an heroic character. It's since occurred to me how rare this is in the genre: we have Martin's trials by combat, and the show trial that is R. v. Lannister (which apparently forbids cross-examination, and which bizarrely allows Tywin to give Tyrion a second trial half-way through). Oh, and the revival of ecclesiastical courts later on. But there is no system of advocacy in Martin: Westeros' legal system comes across as a combination of kangaroo courts and palm-tree justice, where the likes of Joffrey have free rein to make completely arbitrary decisions.

Of  other authors I can think of, Rothfuss has Kvothe being tried for malign magic use, but has it off-screen. Rowling and Butcher have tribunals enforcing wizarding regulations for magic-users only. Urban fantasy sometimes has a collision between fantasy and the mundane legal system (Jacqueline Carey's Poison Fruit). Discworld has an undead lawyer character, but focuses much more on the policing aspect of law than on what happens to the accused later. But really that's about it. Which is interesting, since some of the root texts of fantasy (specifically the Icelandic sagas) have a fair bit of focus on court cases - see Njál's Saga.

Can anyone think of any others?  

[Jo498]

"Three parts dead" has a fusion of magic, religion and corporate law as a central plot point; I am still not sure if this is intended as parody to some extent. In any case it is specific enough that I as someone who is not at all familiar with anglo (or any other) corporate law found it somewhat confusing.

The fascinating thing about the sagas for me was that they have fairly elaborate means of de-escalation and some of the heroes (like Gunnar of Hlidarendi) are overly generous (like paying the double price after someone was killed) and they also always try to settle the cases in a way that each party can save/keep their face. But all this doesn't really help. The anger and the lust for revenge simply don't go away and next spring some guy is again killed because of some old grudge and the feuds escalate.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

I've just finished reading Ravenheart, by David Gemmell, which amongst other other things, featured a courtroom drama in a fantasy setting, with a teacher-turned-lawyer as an heroic character. It's since occurred to me how rare this is in the genre: we have Martin's trials by combat, and the show trial that is R. v. Lannister (which apparently forbids cross-examination, and which bizarrely allows Tywin to give Tyrion a second trial half-way through). Oh, and the revival of ecclesiastical courts later on. But there is no system of advocacy in Martin: Westeros' legal system comes across as a combination of kangaroo courts and palm-tree justice, where the likes of Joffrey have free rein to make completely arbitrary decisions.

Of  other authors I can think of, Rothfuss has Kvothe being tried for malign magic use, but has it off-screen. Rowling and Butcher have tribunals enforcing wizarding regulations for magic-users only. Urban fantasy sometimes has a collision between fantasy and the mundane legal system (Jacqueline Carey's Poison Fruit). Discworld has an undead lawyer character, but focuses much more on the policing aspect of law than on what happens to the accused later. But really that's about it. Which is interesting, since some of the root texts of fantasy (specifically the Icelandic sagas) have a fair bit of focus on court cases - see Njál's Saga.

Can anyone think of any others?  

The legal process in Harry Potter's world seems just as ropey as in Westeros.  It's a reasonable (if minor) criticism of George Martin's world building that a society which is pretty sophisticated economically, (basically, England or France c.1400) has a legal system which is completely primitive.  Westeros would need functioning courts in order to rule on disputes over land, shipping, trade, contracts, as well as criminal matters.

The world of The First Law clearly has quite a sophisticated legal system, with a High Justice and judges who are answerable to him.  But, it co-exists with the apparatus of a very modern police state, in which people can be whisked away to concentration camps at the whim of the Arch Lector.

Making Money by Terry Pratchett has a good sub-plot surrounding a dispute over an inheritance. 

[Talleyrand]

I liked the Legal battle at the end of Ravenheart, in fact I found it better than the actual battle in the book.

They're rare enough in fantasy (and Gemmell's work) but rarer still in it actually had the defence counsel appealing to legal precedent and previous cases which I don't think I've seen in any other fantasy novel.

[sologdin]

am fairly sure i started a similar thread years ago.  it's actually appalling, the dearth of law in these settings.  abercrombie has an attorney protagonist in red country, which is cool.

[AverageGuy]

I want to go the other way. Why is combat the only ordeal in fantasy? Fire, cold water and hot water are legitimate alternatives. 

[MisterOJ]

The obvious answer is the first book of the Fencer trilogy by K.J. Parker.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

23 minutes ago, AverageGuy said:

I want to go the other way. Why is combat the only ordeal in fantasy? Fire, cold water and hot water are legitimate alternatives. 

Combat is dramatically interesting. Most other types of trial by ordeal are really just executions by another name. 

[AncalagonTheBlack]

11 hours ago, Jo498 said:

"Three parts dead" has a fusion of magic, religion and corporate law as a central plot point;

The author has a nice piece on this: ‘Legal Systems in Genre and Why No One Paid Attention to Them… Until Now’ by Max Gladstone

 

12 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Can anyone think of any others?  

I don't remember from which site i saved this,but here are a few:

Quote

One of the major subplots of "Fortress in the Eye of Time" is the main character's attempts to legally marry his fiancee despite their religious differences. The sequel also has discussions of the definition of murder and some other things.

Another fantasy series that dips into legal matters is "The Liveship Traders," whose main plot is essentially about inheritance law, and which has another major subplot concerning democracy--the place where the book is set denies equal representation to immigrants, and a civil war breaks out over that.

China Mieville's New Crobuzon books deal with criminal justice; one of the running themes is the use of punitive labor as a criminal punishment, and how the utility of that labor corrupts the justice system by incentivizing the production of more laborers.

Kit Whitfield's book "Bareback" ('Benighted' in the US) is very legalistic. It's essentially an agency law fantasy, concerning the regulation of lycanthropes, individual and collective rights, criminal justice, access to courts, and many other legal topics.

Night Watch books by Lukyanenko - law in a very real, if magical world. The protagonists (and antagonists) are police officers, of a very unusual sort, and threats of arrest and punishment are common throughout the book, as are trials of a sort. As the books are set in Moscow, with a rather different view of legal norms, it adds another twist (i.e. most trials seem to be decided in advance).

Tooth and Claw, by Jo Walton, is a fantasy novel where the main plot is an inheritance dispute of Bleak-Housian proportions among a family of Dragons, though the author seems to be channeling Trollope more than Dickens.

P.C. Hodgell's Godstalker Chronicles is fantasy which leans heavily on law, and the difference between law and custom.

 

[beniowa]

11 hours ago, Jo498 said:

"Three parts dead" has a fusion of magic, religion and corporate law as a central plot point; I am still not sure if this is intended as parody to some extent. In any case it is specific enough that I as someone who is not at all familiar with anglo (or any other) corporate law found it somewhat confusing.

It might be more accurate to describe it as contract law, as corporate law is rather specific, and it's one of my favorite parts of Gladstone's Craft Sequence.  I think he intended it seriously since, as others have said, legal systems tend to be overlooked in fantasy.  In his world, magic reinforces the legal system rather than the other way around.  For instance, a god or a sorcerer can be contracted to provide electricity, water, defenses etc to individuals, corporations, a city, or even a whole region.  There are law firms and other legal entities just as numerous as in the real world.  And many of the sorcerers in the books are lawyers because magic is so central to the legal system. 

eta: Or one could just read Ancalagon's link. 

[Astromech]

48 minutes ago, AncalagonTheBlack said:

 

I don't remember from which site i saved this,but here are a few:

 

http://www.volokh.com/posts/1179774041.shtml Thanks for that, Ancalagon. It was quite helpful for recommendations.

[AverageGuy]

6 hours ago, NestorMakhnosLovechild said:

Combat is dramatically interesting. Most other types of trial by ordeal are really just executions by another name. 

Hey, Monty Python was able to do it.

[sologdin]

in the RSB, sorcery stands in for law insofar as sorcery is defined as:

Quote

Sorcery: The practice of making the world conform to language, as opposed to philosophy, the practice of making language conform to the world. […] Sorcery requires precise meanings. This is why incantations are always spoken in a non-native tongue: to prevent the semantic transformation of crucial terms due to the vagaries of daily usage. This also explains the extraordinary "double-think" structure of sorcery, the fact that all incantations require the sorcerer to say and think two separate things simultaneously. […] Though there are as many metaphysical interpretations of this structure as there are sorcerous Schools, the result in each case is the same: the world, which is otherwise utterly indifferent to the words of Men, listens, and sorcerous transformations of reality result.

that's a decent theoretical elaboration of what law is.

[Darth Richard II]

Max Gladstone fucking rocks and if you haven't read him yet shame on you.

[SeanF]

13 hours ago, AncalagonTheBlack said:

The author has a nice piece on this: ‘Legal Systems in Genre and Why No One Paid Attention to Them… Until Now’ by Max Gladstone

 

I don't remember from which site i saved this,but here are a few:

 

Those are good examples.  In Hobb's stories, law features quite prominently.  Not just inheritance law, but the law of contract, and treaties.  In Bingtown, the Rain Wilds, and the Six Duchies, the law is something that exists independently from the will of the powerful.

I enjoyed that piece by Max Gladstone, although (English) law is nothing like as mysterious as he indicates.  IMO, any fairly intelligent person could master the basics of contract, inheritance, property, crime, and be a competent lawyer.  A lawyer's main function is client management.

Finance is far more like magic.

 

[SeanF]

Come to think of it, there's quite a lot of law in Tolkien's Middle Earth.

The argument between Bard and Thorin is couched in very legalistic terms.  The contract between Bilbo and the Dwarves is plainly intended to be binding on both sides, and enforceable by Bilbo's heirs if he's killed.  The Shire itself clearly has detailed laws concerning inheritance (a will has to be signed in red ink and witnessed by seven people), auctions, and the sale of real property.  There's a postal service and paid shiriffs and border guards.  It's never made clear who rules on legal disputes, but presumably, it would be the Thain, or the Master of Buckland - who would likely be bound by precedent, rather than just making it up as they go along. 

Gondor and Numenor plainly have legal systems that exist independently of the will of the King or Queen.  Tar Palantir's father would have liked to disinherit him in favour of his younger son, but the law prevented him from doing so.   Ar-Pharazon broke the law to wed his cousin and usurp her Throne.   The Stewards of Gondor aren't Kings, because the law states that Gondor is still a monarchy, and the Stewards are only Regents, until an agreed claimant to the Throne emerges.  Arvedui made his claim to Gondor sui iuxoris, and the claim was considered in detail by a Council, before being rejected.  Aragorn's claim to Gondor rests on being a descendant of Elendil, Onodher, and Firiel. 

There must be detailed laws to govern relations between the Elves of Mirkwood, the Men of Laketown and Dale, and the Dwarves under the Mountain, given the amount of trade that takes place between them.

[Callan S.]

On 7/19/2016 at 7:48 PM, SeanF said:

The legal process in Harry Potter's world seems just as ropey as in Westeros.  It's a reasonable (if minor) criticism of George Martin's world building that a society which is pretty sophisticated economically, (basically, England or France c.1400) has a legal system which is completely primitive.  Westeros would need functioning courts in order to rule on disputes over land, shipping, trade, contracts, as well as criminal matters.

They likely do have functional courts - someone who has a hand in running the courts and thinks the courts are functional AND has the loyalty of enough men with pointy metal in their hands that they really don't care if you don't think the court is functional.

[Jo498]

Sure, but this is to my knowledge not even a crude caricature of the actual legal systems and practices in the past. Westeros seems tribal in its court practice, neither like classical Athens nor Rome nor medieval Island or England or so. And even a "primitive tribe" would often not simply have the chieftain serving as as willful judge but some council or elders or priests having a say in at a tribunal.

[The Marquis de Leech]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Arvedui made his claim to Gondor sui iuxoris, and the claim was considered in detail by a Council, before being rejected.  Aragorn's claim to Gondor rests on being a descendant of Elendil, Onodher, and Firiel. 

Technically, Aragorn took power via a Gandalf-led coup while the Steward (Faramir) was out of action. Tolkien's drafts have Denethor living, and things getting very complicated.

(In theory, the Stewards ruled because the last King of Gondor, Eärnur, had not returned). 

[SeanF]

22 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Technically, Aragorn took power via a Gandalf-led coup while the Steward (Faramir) was out of action. Tolkien's drafts have Denethor living, and things getting very complicated.

(In theory, the Stewards ruled because the last King of Gondor, Eärnur, had not returned). 

That's interesting.  How was the succession resolved in those drafts?