Are Dany haters politically conservative?

[The Drunkard]

3 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Brandon the builder was a Republican.

"Winter is coming....you're fired"

"We're gonna build a wall, don't worry about it. We're gonna build a wall. It'll be a huge wall. Fabulous wall. And we're gonna make the Others pay for it."

[El Guapo]

7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

GRRM is that you?

I don't necessary disagree with you but the way you talk suggests that you know more than us mere mortals.

Ok. I will amend my statement and say there is 0.01% chance of this happening. Seriously though anyone who thinks one of the 2 main characters in the story is going to die a pointless death is kidding themselves.  The same thing applies to Jon. If one or both of these characters die it going to very impactful to the story.

[YorEmixam]

Did I dream the part where Dany sends the Shavepate to torture the winesellers daughters?  No matter what political side you're on, she's a cruel monster, the like of Tywin.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

I am not from the US, but if I was, I'd say I would be liberal.

I don't hate Dany as a person, but dislike her as a ruler. Ironically, she is actually a "young girl who knows little of the ways of governance and ruling".

Worst of all, if her last chapter in ADWD is any indication, she seems to be fed up with ruling itself and doesn't want to try anymore. 

Astapor was just like any of the other decisions she has made all along -  good intentioned, completely ill thought out, makes her feel like a glorious "dragon" while doing it, but has terrible consequences.

[W1NT3RF3LL]

I am more on the conservative side, however in no way have I ever compared my political views with what Danny has done in the series and decided to hate her for it.  I liked her very much at first, but her decisions as of late have been poor and have put her in a bad position. Never mind that her actions are hypocritical and in most cases goes against what she is trying to achieve.

[the trees have eyes]

@Hugorfonics  I sincerely doubt there is any real correlation.  A number of people seem to loathe Dany because of Astapor & Meereen.  As you have already seen in this thread the killings involved in the sack of Astapor and the crucifiction of the 163 Meereenese masters are viewed as unforgivable by some, even labelled as genocide.  So you might expect those who dislike her to be liberal humanitarian even libertarian types.  Except those same people paradoxically seem to turn a blind eye to the excessive cruelty and depraved savagery of what happens in Slaver's Bay to the extent that they argue that its part of their culture and thus somehow acceptable in some way rather than an unspeakable atrocity.  Let's remember that the author goes out of his way to show how vile it is and that the training of the Unsullied involves, inter alia wholelale castration, the murder of children who can't bear to kill their puppies or remember the name they draw from a pot each day and the requirement that each Unsullied take a new born infant from its mother's breast and kill the infant infront of its mother.  So these people want an end to slavery one imagines but they want it to happen in an entirely non-violent way which seems entirely unrealistic but there you go.  Dany gets shit because she kills people and that is what they can't accept.  Perhaps they are really pacifists?

For the record I'm slightly right of centre so I guess a mild conservative at heart and I like Dany.  On the other hand I despise Trump and pretty much everything that comes out of his mouth and think the US Republican party looks increasingly like a hardline reactionary party in denial.  If I was an American I would be a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat.

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

No it isn't; Genocide is  

She killed 163 people while she wasn't sure if they were the people who killed those children, just because they were slavers. In Slaver's Bay, slavery is a cultural aspect. So she killed them because of who they were and not what they have done. Also she ordered the death of 12 and older children who wear tokar just because of what they wear.

For example; she fights slavery and at ADWD she becomes a slaver.

The execution of the 163 Meereenese masters in no way resembles genocide.  The collective punishment of the Masters in retaliantion for the murder of 163 children is a tit for tat action that gets a lot of criticism, quite rightly.  But surely even you can see that if you want to label that genocide then you have to label the murder of the children genocide as well.  Neither act is genocidal though you may argue that both are crimes.

Astapor.  This has been debated to death.  She orders the Unsullied to kill the grand masters and then adds that they are not to kill any children.  Does 12 seem shockingly young to us from our perspective?  Sure, it does but bear in mind squires seem to be taken at about that age so from a Planetos perspective it's not so jarring.  At worst this amounts to a few teenagers who happened to have a tokar on and pull a sword out once the fighting started.

She allows former slaves desparate enough to sell themselves back into slavery to do so.  She does not in any way support the enslaving of any more free people, the conduct of the slave trade or the re-establishment of slave-owning as the underpinning of the Meereenese economy.

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Again; in Slaver's Bay slavery is a cultural aspect, it's in the effing name. She committed genocide because people in that specific area were doing what they used to do which wasn't illegal. It’s like the Westerosi killing all the Targs because of their incest which was illegal in Westeros.

Yeah, if the law says you can enslave children and murder them and murder babies for training as part of your cultural heritage you don't have much of an argument.  I know you don't like Dany but your arguments are really vile.

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Killing all (non-slave) males over the age of 12 in Astapor might not be technically genocide, but surely is unjustified mass murder.

You are aware this didn't happen.  She ordered the Unsullied to kill the masters, the soldiers and any man who carried a whip or wore a tokar.  She then qualifies that they are to harm no children in case tokars come in child sizes too.  If you think this amounted to a few hundred of the elite then you are probably ok with it.  If you interpret it as ordering the murder of every adult citizen in Astapor then you have to label it genocide as that would be what it was.  Perhaps you meant to qualify the bolded part of the above statement?

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Again; in Slaver's bay slavery wasn't illegal, it was their culture. You would be ok with the Westerosi killing the Targ because of their incest?  Becaue incest is illegal in Westeros, so they would be right if they wanted to kill those abominations.

Not really. Anyone who has profit from slave trading is a slaver. 

Lol! That is the best joke I have heared in a long time.  Thank you! In any case I see no reason to continue talking after that.

You are really pretty vile with this stuff.  As Yunkai shows she does not harm a soul for slave-owning so long as they release the slaves.  She destroys the regime in Astapor because of the unspeakably vile way it brutalizes and murders tens of thousands of children but all your sympathy is with the slavers it seems.  And she punishes the Meereenese for their calculated cruelty and mocking challenge in crucifying 163 slave children.  Stop fucking going on about their "culture" as if this is somehow ok and stop pretending she punishes people for owning slaves rather than butchering children.

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

I have never liked Dany as a character either. It is insane to think that 25 years and thousands of pages of character building and political intrigue would be ended by a cocky girl with dragons. I really see dany dying in a very pointless way. she doesn't belong in the story.

Come again?  GRRM has written an awful lot about the Targaryens, Dany herself specifically, the hatching of the dragons and Dany's bond with Drogon.  I get that some people don't like her or the Meereenese arc but it's really odd to say she doesn't belong in the story when she is one of the central characters and GRRM has put so much into her arc and her character development.

[Golden Eyes]

Hell no. My silver queen can do what she wants and there is noting more free then thta.

I feel like Jon fans are conservative with all the stark honor stuff that just gets them killed. It is like a lesson or something. Liberal live, conservative die.

[BricksAndSparrows]

4 minutes ago, The Drunkard said:

"We're gonna build a wall, don't worry about it. We're gonna build a wall. It'll be a huge wall. Fabulous wall. And we're gonna make the Others pay for it."

"I'm gonna WARG the shit out of em'"

It's funny. I never made a political association. I'm sure it's there, though.

[YOVMO]

Just now, the trees have eyes said:

Come again?  GRRM has written an awful lot about the Targaryens, Dany herself specifically, the hatching of the dragons and Dany's bond with Drogon.  I get that some people don't like her or the Meereenese arc but it's really odd to say she doesn't belong in the story when she is one of the central characters and GRRM has put so much into her arc and her character development.

I really want to get away from the term "don't like her"

 

I love her. She is an amazing character. I don't want to say the books would have been better without her because that is objectively incorrect. And yes, there is a lot about Targs, Dany, the hatching and character arcs. But arcs are just that, they are arcs and they have a starting point and an end. GRRM is a master and Dany's arc has been brilliant. However, I feel that it is coming to it's conclusion.

Further, one over arching theme that has superseded even major character arcs, is to me...the bleak reality and nihilism in the world. How in the end, honor, rights, blood, decency, etc. etc.   it all means exactly nothing. Valar Murghulis.

This is how I read the story and is a large part of why I love it. I would find that after all this build up, an enraged Victarion just berserking out and killing dany with his bare hands after finding out he has been boning Euron through Euron's warging of the dusky woman would be amazing. Just Dany's lifeless body and her entire arc laying there on a stone floor motionless. So bleak and beautiful in my opinion.

 

Now, I do not want to go down the path of pretending I can even imagine how George will write this all out and I am sure it will be terrific and no matter what I think it won't be exactly the same. However, I would respond to you by saying that you are 100% correct and that just makes me feel that an ignomious death would be perfect for Dany.

The idea of Dany riding Drogon in westeros recreating the field of fire and uniting westeros under new targ leadership just like Aegon I would be the absolute worst thing I could possibly imagine.

[Tucu]

4 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

My point is Dany is no worse than anyone else in the books.  Even those regarded as honorable have done terrible things ( Jon snow hanged a child, and the only reason it's not in the books is cuz GRRM is incapable of writing in an appropriate time frame)

Or because the character doesn't exist in the book...and he prefers beheadings to hangings.

[spauldo17]

Just now, Tucu said:

Or because the character doesn't exist in the book...and he prefers beheadings to hangings.

Fair point.  Either way wouldn't you say that every character (either protagonist or antagonist depending on your view)  has done things one might consider awful?  It's the beauty  of GRRM writing, the heroes all have flaws.

[The Wolves]

8 minutes ago, Golden Eyes said:

Hell no. My silver queen can do what she wants and there is noting more free then thta.

I feel like Jon fans are conservative with all the stark honor stuff that just gets them killed. It is like a lesson or something. Liberal live, conservative die.

Leave Jon out of this. This discussion isn't about Jon, stick to Dany. 

[Golden Eyes]

Just now, The Wolves said:

Leave Jon out of this. This discussion isn't about Jon, stick to Dany. 

I was using a comparison. No harm.

[OuttaOldtown]

I feel like people do mental gymnastics in order to associate the characters they do not like with whatever political ideals they don't like..

[YorEmixam]

9 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

Saying that anyone who profits from x is x doesn't make any sense.  I own stock in tesla, I profit from tesla stock going up, so now I'm Elon Musk?  Anyone who profits from an investment doesn't, themselves, represent that investment.   Your logic is flawed.

 

YOUR logic is flawed, how can you compare owning Tesla stock with slavery? More like if you make money out of drug deals, you're involve in the drug deal. If you buy stuff that comes from buisness that employ children or underpaid persons, you are part of it too, yes.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

20 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Ok. I will amend my statement and say there is 0.01% chance of this happening. Seriously though anyone who thinks one of the 2 main characters in the story is going to die a pointless death is kidding themselves.  The same thing applies to Jon. If one or both of these characters die it going to very impactful to the story.

As I said before, I don't disagree with you.

18 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

snip

If that is what you want to believe. My point still stands, no matter how awful it is in Slaver's Bay slavery is in their culture and she killed them for that even if they had no opportunity or way to change a thousands years old culture. The fact that they were awful and despicable human beings doesn't mean that what she did was right, two wrongs don't make a right. Those twelve years old, if they were 12 years old and not younger, who she ordered to die were born and raised in this culture and she killed them because of what they were wearing. You know what else I find vile? Brother sister incest. 

14 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

Jon snow hanged a child, and the only reason it's not in the books is cuz GRRM is incapable of writing in an appropriate time frame

Since something isn't in the books doesn't belong here. 

14 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

snip

The only thing I understand from everything you have written so far is that everyone who disagree with you obviously is wrong. So as I said before; 

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

 I see no reason to continue talking after that.

This.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

It is hilarious that how people are arguing that it is alright to have killed every tokar-wearing person in Astapor over 12.

Dany was 12-13 when she was living in Illyrio's manse and being taken care of by slaves, wasn't she? Did she have the power to do anything about it then?

Or when she was married into the Dothrakis, whose entire culture is based on raiding, pillaging and yes, taking slaves? In fact, in AGOT, she thinks:

Slaves, Dany thought. Khal Drogo would drive them downriver to one of the towns on Slaver's Bay. She wanted to cry, but she told herself that she must be strong. This is war, this is what it looks like, this is the price of the Iron Throne.

Many argue she had no power to stop the Dothraki from doing this during this instance, although she was uncomfortable with it. 

So why does Dany get slack for this but the 12-16 year olds in Astapor deserve to be killed?

[spauldo17]

1 minute ago, YorEmixam said:

YOUR logic is flawed, how can you compare owning Tesla stock with slavery? More like if you make money out of drug deals, you're involve in the drug deal. If you buy stuff that comes from buisness that employ children or underpaid persons, you are part of it too, yes.

I guess we just fundamentally disagree on that.  I think if you do those things you are involved in some shady business, but it doesn't make you a drug dealer/ child trafikker

[Tucu]

7 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

Fair point.  Either way wouldn't you say that every character (either protagonist or antagonist depending on your view)  has done things one might consider awful?  It's the beauty  of GRRM writing, the heroes all have flaws.

Not many characters in the series have ordered a massacre of civilians as big as what happened in Astapor. Maybe Tywin is the only direct comparison.

[Hugorfonics]

24 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

He really isn't.

For starters, he derives his "mandate" from Robert Baratheon. A King. Communists don't believe that hereditary aristocrats should care for those beneath them.

But he doesn't. It wasn't even Robert who ordered them, and Roberts dead, along with Ned. The king ordered him to lay down his arms and swear fealty, he did not. 

24 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

 They don't believe in hereditary aristocrats, full stop.

Which is why, despite his oaths and upbringing, Harwin kidnapped Arya. Betic plays all sides, except his land which he gave up. All for the people. All are knights, from foreign priests, to smallfolk to basterds. And Thoros wears red.