Are Dany haters politically conservative?

[Hugorfonics]

I've got this theory that they are. Generally speaking, Dany haters are mad at her positions on destabilizing the economy, promoting a strong central government, and anti isolationism. These all seem like Republican ideals, so I'm curious, if you are Dany hater, are you politically conservative?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Republican ideals

Not all of us are from the US. Also not all of us hate her for the reasons you mention. Most of us hate her because she has commited terrible war crimes, like genocide, because she is a hypocrite and an idiot. Actually I haven't seen a Dany hater that feels like that for the reasons you have mention.

[spauldo17]

4 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Not all of us are from the US. Also not all of us hate her for the reasons you mention. Most of us hate her because she has commited terrible war crimes, like genocide, because she is a hypocrite and an idiot. Actually I haven't seen a Dany hater that feels like that for the reasons you have mention.

I'm interested to hear you break out those factors.  Can you give me examples?  My first reaction is to say you're wrong but I haven't looked at it from that view point yet.

I would also say to keep in mind the time period- war was a part of life.  And good rulers showed their resolve by committing extreme acts.  What may seem heinous to you (who lives in 2016) back then was normal, so try to shift your perspective.

Just off the top of my head though... Genocide?  Genocide is the wiping out of an entire species.  When did she do that?

War Crimes?  According to whom?  the Geneva conventions? (which didn't exist back then)

Hypocrite?  I'm interested to hear you explain that, though often times rulers are because they know what's best for their people

Idiot?  Well that's subjective so there's no argument

[Free Northman Reborn]

I find I have a distaste for the Pharaoh-like "more than a mere mortal" vibe that she not only presents to the world, but actively cultivates in her own mind.

She comes across not very differently to a Go'uld from the Stargate universe.

[Hugorfonics]

13 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Not all of us are from the US. Also not all of us hate her for the reasons you mention. Most of us hate her because she has commited terrible war crimes, like genocide, because she is a hypocrite and an idiot. Actually I haven't seen a Dany hater that feels like that for the reasons you have mention.

Word, that's why I asked if you guys were politically conservative. I assume that most conservatives are similar to Republicans.

Yet we all love Ned, who was an idiot and hypocrite, and if he didn't commit war crimes I'm sure his army did (like they did for his sons)

Anyway, just for the hell of it, do you consider yourself conservative or liberal?

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

20 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

Just off the top of my head though... Genocide?  Genocide is the wiping out of an entire species.  When did she do that?

No it isn't; Genocide is  

Quote

the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/genocide

She killed 163 people while she wasn't sure if they were the people who killed those children, just because they were slavers. In Slaver's Bay, slavery is a cultural aspect. So she killed them because of who they were and not what they have done. Also she ordered the death of 12 and older children who wear tokar just because of what they wear.

20 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

Hypocrite?  I'm interested to hear you explain that, though often times rulers are because they know what's best for their people

For example; she fights slavery and at ADWD she becomes a slaver.

20 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

Idiot?  Well that's subjective so there's no argument

No it isn't. If you can't see the idiocity of her actions while in Slaver's Bay that doesn't mean that what she did wasn't idiotic.

14 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I find I have a distaste for the Pharaoh-like "more than a mere mortal" vibe that she not only presents to the world, but actively cultivates in her own mind.

She comes across not very differently to a Go'uld from the Stargate universe.

You know Goa'uld. Take my respect Sir! But also I agree with you.

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word, that's why I asked if you guys were politically conservative. I assume that most conservatives are similar to Republicans.

Yet we all love Ned, who was an idiot and hypocrite, and if he didn't commit war crimes I'm sure his army did (like they did for his sons)

Only Dany has ordered those crimes. 

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Anyway, just for the hell of it, do you consider yourself conservative or liberal?

Actually I see no reason to discuss my political views because you think that everyone who disagree is conservative.

[the wolf that never was]

you seem like a sensible guy but its just stupid to assume everyone who hates or even dislikes is politically conservative.

I admit i hate Dany but i'm not willing to explain why. I've done that many times with many people and in many threads as have a LOT of others, many of whom are much more eloquent than me.

Plus i feel like most people on here including me really really don't know how to properly debate and often even when we think we're being rational, polite and open to different perspectives we're really not. 

Its like you mentioned most of the arguments here about dany(as well as other controversial subjects) are highly subjective making any attempts at even the politest of arguments futile, leading to never-ending and hate-filled threads.

You might just have the opened the floodgates my friend

[spauldo17]

2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

No it isn't; Genocide is  

She killed 163 people while she wasn't sure if they were the people who killed those children, just because they were slavers. In Slaver's Bay, slavery is a cultural aspect. So she killed them because of who they were and not what they have done. Also she ordered the death of 12 and older children who wear tokar just because of what they wear.

For example; she fights slavery and at ADWD she becomes a slaver.

No it isn't. If you can't see the idiocity of her actions while in Slaver's Bay that doesn't mean that what she did wasn't idiotic.

You know Goa'uld. Take my respect Sir! But also I agree with you.

Only Dany has ordered those crimes. 

Neither. Also in my country we don't actually have those terms for our political parties.

Genocide is typically killing people based on ethnicity.

Also- I find it ironic that you dislike her for her "war crimes" yet what she was doing was ending slavery... which is a crime against humanity.  So kind of a pot meet kettle situation eh?  And she didn't kill them for "who they were" she killed them because they were engaged in slavery.

As far as her becoming a slaver, can you give more detail? Just stating she became a slaver is not proof

and yes, calling some an idiot is 100% a subjective comment.  Idiocy is based on how you see the world, what is idiocy to you isn't to someone else. 

And regardless, I repeat that you must look at this through the eyes of someone in that time.  Not your own.  You must be able to see how futile it is to apply your understanding of your own socially progressive world to a world completely different from your own.  In Westeros Hypocrisy abounds (every ruler ever) , war crimes are committed daily (the traditional raping of women after a battle) , as is "genocide"  (Robert killing every targaryen he can find based on family ties)

 

[spauldo17]

12 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

No it isn't; Genocide is  ....

 

also:  Genocide is the intentional action to systematically eliminate an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group. The word is a combination of "genos" (race, people) and "cide" (to kill).^[1] The United Nations Genocide Convention defines it as "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group".

Killing groups of people based on ethnicity.  Dany killed a group of people based on their prior actions (slavery.)  She had no intent to destroy their ethnic group, she was eradicating slavery

[The Marquis de Leech]

Genocide means seeking to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group (note that it is technically possible to commit genocide without actually killing anyone: forced sterilisation, et cetera). Daenerys has never done this - slavers are not a "national, ethnic, racial, or religious group"; they are a social/cultural class.

I'd also point out that political conservatives outside the US have little in common with US Republicans. 

[Hugorfonics]

4 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Only Dany has ordered those crimes. 

Neither. Also in my country we don't actually have those terms for our political parties.

Only Dany has ordered war crimes? Not Tywin or Vargo, Gregor, Ramsay?

 

7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Neither. Also in my country we don't actually have those terms for our political parties.

Sure you do! And, I assume you have some political views. From what ive gathered Greece has a wide variety of parties, but whatever, it's cool if you don't.

 

10 minutes ago, the wolf that never was said:

you seem like a sensible guy but its just stupid to assume everyone who hates or even dislikes is politically conservative.

I admit i hate Dany but i'm not willing to explain why. I've done that many times with many people and in many threads as have a LOT of others, many of whom are much more eloquent than me.

Plus i feel like most people on here including me really really don't know how to properly debate and often even when we think we're being rational, polite and open to different perspectives we're really not. 

Its like you mentioned most of the arguments here about dany(as well as other controversial subjects) are highly subjective making any attempts at even the politest of arguments futile, leading to never-ending and hate-filled threads.

You might just have the opened the floodgates my friend

I agree, its a far fetched theory, welcome to westetos.org lol

The number of Dany haters is overwhelming (I estimate over 50%) Word, I don't wanna discussion about Dany. You don't have to give your reasons, but I'd appreciate it if you could say whether you dislike her for the reasons stated above, espically if you consider yourself rightwing.

I feel like I don't know how to debate either, though I also feel like I improved. I defiantly always want to come off polite, if I gave a sense of disrespect or closeminded, that was never an intention.

Lol, it seems like you can debate, idk how to respond to that.

I love the floods

4 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

I'd also point out that political conservatives outside the US have little in common with US Republicans. 

Hmmm, I've been getting that a lot. Seems my theory is dead in the water

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, spauldo17 said:

Also- I find it ironic that you dislike her for her "war crimes" yet what she was doing was ending slavery... which is a crime against humanity.  So kind of a pot meet kettle situation eh?  And she didn't kill them for "who they were" she killed them because they were engaged in slavery.

Again; in Slaver's Bay slavery is a cultural aspect, it's in the effing name. She committed genocide because people in that specific area were doing what they used to do which wasn't illegal. It’s like the Westerosi killing all the Targs because of their incest which was illegal in Westeros.

4 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

As far as her becoming a slaver, can you give more detail? Just stating she became a slaver is not proof

Quote

 

 “In Astapor the city took a tenth part of the price, each time a slave changed hands,” Missandei told her. “We’ll do the same,” Dany decided. Wars were won with gold as much as swords. “A tenth part. In gold or silver coin, or ivory. Meereen has no need of saffron, cloves, or zorse hides.”

 

So she maked money from slave trading.

Actually you know what? 

15 minutes ago, the wolf that never was said:

I admit i hate Dany but i'm not willing to explain why. I've done that many times with many people and in many threads as have a LOT of others, many of whom are much more eloquent than me.

This.

I see no reason to explain my opinion when I have already done it countless times before.

 

1 minute ago, spauldo17 said:

also:  Genocide is the intentional action to systematically eliminate an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group. The word is a combination of "genos" (race, people) and "cide" (to kill).^[1] The United Nations Genocide Convention defines it as "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group".

Killing groups of people based on ethnicity.  Dany killed a group of people based on their prior actions (slavery.)  She had no intent to destroy their ethnic group, she was eradicating slavery

Is that a joke? Wikipedia? 

[spauldo17]

Just now, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Genocide means seeking to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group (note that it is technically possible to commit genocide without actually killing anyone: forced sterilisation, et cetera). Daenerys has never done this - slavers are not a "national, ethnic, racial, or religious group"; they are a social/cultural class.

I'd also point out that political conservatives outside the US have little in common with US Republicans. 

100% agree. 

I think that people who dislike Dany do so because they want to.  Not because of anything she has actually done.  Her actions are no worse than any other character in the entire show.  Most main characters have done something heinous, that's the nature of the world in which they live - (Tyrion- patricide, Cersei - incest, murder of hundreds, Stannis- murdered his daughter, sand snakes - murdered many including a young child...)

Some people have a very narrow view of things, and look at it through their own lens.  You must look at it through their lens to understand it. It's called ethical relativism.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

Stannis- murdered his daughter, sand snakes - murdered many including a young child.

Never happened. You are talking about D&D's fan fiction and not the books.

[spauldo17]

1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Again; in Slaver's Bay slavery is a cultural aspect, it's in the effing name. She committed genocide because people in that specific area were doing what they used to do which wasn't illegal. It’s like the Westerosi killing all the Targs because of their incest which was illegal in Westeros.

 

So she maked money from slave trading.

Actually you know what? 

This.

I see no reason to explain my opinion when I have already done it countless times before.

 

Is that a joke? Wikipedia? 

Umm That's the United Nations official definition.... if that isn't enough for you nothing will be.  

Again, the people in slavers bay were committing slavery, this is why she killed them.  It may have been a part of their culture but that doesn't make it genocide. 

She didn't become a slaver, she took a cut as the queen.  There is a difference, though a small one.  Being a "slaver" implies owing a slave. 

[Lady Noble]

I hate Dany, but because of how she treated her dragons not because of how she rules. I support most of what she does, politically, but I think she was given a great gift (DRAGONS) and she got too caught up in ruling and people he dragons were neglected.

[Tucu]

6 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

Umm That's the United Nations official definition.... if that isn't enough for you nothing will be.  

Again, the people in slavers bay were committing slavery, this is why she killed them.  It may have been a part of their culture but that doesn't make it genocide. 

She didn't become a slaver, she took a cut as the queen.  There is a difference, though a small one.  Being a "slaver" implies owing a slave. 

Killing all (non-slave) males over the age of 12 in Astapor might not be technically genocide, but surely is unjustified mass murder.

[spauldo17]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Never happened. You are talking about D&D's fan fiction and not the books.

Ok, so those two examples didn't happen.  Those were examples off the top of my head.  You know an argument is won when the other person tries to pick apart specific examples. 

If you are trying to claim that most main characters haven't done heinous things, you will be incorrect. 

In fact, Dany is probably the most moral of them all.  Taking a cut of slavery profits actually shows this.  She used ethical relativism to understand that she needed to assimilate herself to a new culture and she did so, while also improving said culture.  She worked to end slavery...that's pretty morally sound

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 hour ago, spauldo17 said:

Again, the people in slavers bay were committing slavery, this is why she killed them.  It may have been a part of their culture but that doesn't make it genocide. 

Again; in Slaver's bay slavery wasn't illegal, it was their culture. You would be ok with the Westerosi killing the Targ because of their incest?  Becaue incest is illegal in Westeros, so they would be right if they wanted to kill those abominations.

1 hour ago, spauldo17 said:

She didn't become a slaver, she took a cut as the queen.  There is a difference, though a small one.  Being a "slaver" implies owing a slave. 

Not really. Anyone who has profit from slave trading is a slaver. 

1 hour ago, spauldo17 said:

Ok, so those two examples didn't happen.  Those were examples off the top of my head.  You know an argument is won when the other person tries to pick apart specific examples. 

If you are trying to claim that most main characters haven't done heinous things, you will be incorrect. 

In fact, Dany is probably the most moral of them all.  Taking a cut of slavery profits actually shows this.  She used ethical relativism to understand that she needed to assimilate herself to a new culture and she did so, while also improving said culture.  She worked to end slavery...that's pretty morally sound

Lol! That is the best joke I have heard in a long time.  Thank you! In any case I see no reason to continue talking after that.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

We had another thread "are Stannis fans Conservative" quite a while ago, the conclusion seemed to be that there was a mixed bag, with a lean to liberal/left ideals, in line with this board in general.

So I suspect the answer is "no", in general I think there is limited correlation between real world beliefs political views and character sympathies in the books, though I would like to see a poll that tested this.