I think that the 'Younger and more beautiful' prophecy was already fulfilled

[Future Null Infinity]

"younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."
I think that the younger queen was Margaery and the prophecy was already fulfilled and it will not be Dany, Cersei held her children the dearest and there is nothing dearest for Cersei in this world more than her children :

• Joffrey was killed by one of Margaery's family (Olenna) because she feared for the safety of Margeary
• Joffrey's death led to a chain of events that in turn led to the death of Myrcella
• Tommen killed himself because of Margaery's death

 

[JonSnow4President]

While I don't think it is the case in the books, I think that may be the case in the show.  

However, I think it's important to note the phrasing.  The prophecy is "ALL that you hold dear," not "what you hold dearest." (And I will contend that book Cersei doesn't care for her children above her own power, but that is a discussion for a different place.) Show Cersei also clearly values power, although much less overtly than book Cersei.  So I'm not sure the Younger and More Beautiful Queen can be Marg, since she cannot take Cersei's power from her (being a crispy bit of ash and all).  

Just my $0.02 of course.

[Future Null Infinity]

1 hour ago, JonSnow4President said:

since she cannot take Cersei's power from her (being a crispy bit of ash and all).

but Margaery already cast Cersei down and took the power from her! Cersei will enjoy some days on the IT alone now before her death

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Nah Cersei chose vengeance and power over Tommen in the end.  I don't think her children have anything to do with the YMBQ.

the part of the prophecy about her children is quite separate from the part about the YMBQ taking all she holds dear:

Quote

 

C- I've been promised to the prince when will we marry? 

M- You will never wed the prince -- you'll marry the king.

C- But I will be queen?

M- Oh yes you'll be queen.  For a time.  Then comes another.  Younger.  More beautiful.  To cast you down and take all you hold dear.

C- Will the king and I have children?

M- No. The king will have 20 children, and you will have three. 

C- That doesn't make sense.

M- Gold Will be their crowns.  Gold, their shrouds! *laughs*

 

YMB will come when Cersei is queen, to cast her down, and take all she holds dear at that moment.  Since Cersei is still queen, that means that YMBQ has not yet come.  

What does Cersei currently hold dear?  

1. Power

2. Her life

2. Jaime (??)

there are three possibility still remaining, IMO.

1) Dany - seems highly likely.  If Jaime aligns himself with Dany and Tyrion then she is also taking Jaime away as well as her power.  In this case either Jaime or Tyrion could be Valonquar.  

2) Brienne - prophecy does noy specify that the YMB person is a queen.  Brienne is by far the most likely person to steal Jaime from Cersei.  She is called "Brienne the beauty" mockingly.  If Jaime is the Valonquor then Cersei may believe Jaime is killing her for Brienne. 

3) Sansa?  I suppose if Sansa comes south, and gets Jaime to abandon Cersei somehow. I'm not sure.  Maybe in combination with Brienne who is her sworn sword?  

4) I can't take credit for this one, someone pointed out technically the prophecy could refer to a guy. So maybe the younger and more beautiful person is actually Jaime who is also the Valonquar.

[Drogonthedread]

Cersei always held the power dear both in books and show..

What one must consider is that when YMBQ comes and take what she helds dear valnqor will strangle her..

Which didn't happen till now so it can't be Margery .

[A spoon of knife and fork]

19 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

but Margaery already cast Cersei down and took the power from her! Cersei will enjoy some days on the IT alone now before her death

Not at all.  Cersei has much more power now than she had either before Margaery came, or after. 

Before Margaery, she had no control over Joffery, hardly any influence.  And Tyrion followed by Tywin had more power than she ever did.  

After Margaery even less, but now she has much more power.  She finally is THE queen.  

[Drogonthedread]

3 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Nah Cersei chose vengeance and power over Tommen in the end.  I don't think her children have anything to do with the YMBQ.

the part of the prophecy about her children is quite separate from the part about the YMBQ taking all she holds dear:

YMB will come when Cersei is queen, to cast her down, and take all she holds dear at that moment.  Since Cersei is still queen, that means that YMBQ has not yet come.  

What does Cersei currently hold dear?  

1. Power

2. Her life

2. Jaime (??)

there are three possibility still remaining, IMO.

1) Dany - seems highly likely.  If Jaime aligns himself with Dany and Tyrion then she is also taking Jaime away as well as her power.  In this case either Jaime or Tyrion could be Valonquar.  

2) Brienne - prophecy does noy specify that the YMB person is a queen.  Brienne is by far the most likely person to steal Jaime from Cersei.  She is called "Brienne the beauty" mockingly.  If Jaime is the Valonquor then Cersei may believe Jaime is killing her for Brienne. 

3) Sansa?  I suppose if Sansa comes south, and gets Jaime to abandon Cersei somehow. I'm not sure.  Maybe in combination with Brienne who is her sworn sword?  

4) I can't take credit for this one, someone pointed out technically the prophecy could refer to a guy. So maybe the younger and more beautiful person is actually Jaime who is also the Valonquar.

I never heard of that one LOL ..this fandom really comes with some crazy ones..

Havings said that I think its pretty clear its going to be dany ..people may not like it but that's how its going to be 

[kimim]

41 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

but Margaery already cast Cersei down and took the power from her! Cersei will enjoy some days on the IT alone now before her death

The novel Cersei is a one-dimensional villain who loves only herself. Her desire for power is an extension of her radical narcissism.

The show Cersei is not one dimensional. Unlike the novel Cersei, she loves someone other than herself: Her kids, Jaime. Like the novel Cersei she wants power, but this isn't the only thing that means something to her. Loss drives her to complete madness; she doesn't start at that point, the way the novel Cersei does.

Thanks to her one-dimensional nature, a single person can take away what the novel Cersei holds dear, as the novel Cersei only holds a single thing dear: Herself. So, in the novels, the prophecy works, in that the prophecy states a single person, "younger, more beautiful" than she is, will take all she holds dear.

I'm not sure if the prophecy works for the show Cersei, in that there are multiple people involved in her tragedy, including herself: Tyrells and LF killed Joff. Tyrion and Doran moved Myrcella to Dorne, where Ellaria killed her. Tyrion killed Tywin, moving Cersei into power, which she then used to harm herself through an unwise deal with the HS, who then forces the Walk of Shame. Marg's plotting, in combination with Cersei's growing madness, drove Tommen to suicide. There is no single, all-purpose nemesis here that the prophecy seems to be calling for.

Cersei is now the mad queen. The only person left whom she might love is Jaime. SHE is going to force Jaime to strangle her (imo). Jaime is younger, but he's not responsible for all the other disasters that have befallen her; on top of that, at this point Cersei might welcome a good strangling. Dany might take away the last thing Cersei valued: Power, the IT. Like Jaime, though, she is not responsible for all the disasters Cersei has suffered.

Cersei has multiple enemies. Prophecy doesn't work.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

@kimim

i don't see a problem, if you consider the exact quote and use the present tense.

"Oh yes you'll be queen.  For a time.  Then comes another.  Younger.  More beautiful.  To cast you down and take all you hold dear."

So, Cersei will be queen for a time, THEN comes another to cast her down and take all she (at that point in time) holds dear.  So at the moment Cersei is cast down, and finally is no longer queen we will know who the YMBQ is.  Cersei is still queen, and has been queen for ~18 years, ergo YMBQ is not yet come.  

[JonSnow4President]

3 minutes ago, kimim said:

The novel Cersei is a one-dimensional villain who loves only herself. Her desire for power is an extension of her radical narcissism.

[snip for length]

I disagree that she is one dimensional, although I wholeheartedly agree that she is a villain and not accidentally one of the more sympathetic characters like what the show has spawned.  There is a certain love for her children, although I don't think it's a "pure" maternal love like that of Catelyn, but one that is heavily influenced by them as her link to power.  She also has a pretty damn big inferiority complex going on, and struggles against the sexist institutions of her time (not that she is a feminist).  I don't think one dimensional quite fits, although I agree in that I think one person fits better in the novels.  I would attribute that to greater attention to detail in the writing, but to each their own.

[Future Null Infinity]

44 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

After Margaery even less, but now she has much more power.  She finally is THE queen.

but before Joffrey she was THE QUEEN and she enjoyed be the queen for a long time, now she's just a ghost of herself, just a crazy monster awaiting to be slayed, I think the proof that's Margaery is she cast Sansa for Margaery because she thought that Sansa is too beautiful and she's a candidate to the prophecy, so she chose Margaery but she can't run from the karma and her destiny 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Just now, Future Null Infinity said:

but before Joffrey she was THE QUEEN and she enjoyed be the queen for a long time, now she's just a ghost of herself, just a crazy monster awaiting to be slayed, I think the proof is she cast Sansa for Margaery because she thought that Sansa is too beautiful and she's a candidate to the prophecy, so she chose Margeary but she can't run from the karma and her destiny 

At the risk of repeating myself, I think it's as simple as this - Prophecy says Cersei will be queen until YMB person comes to cast her down. 

Since Cersei is still queen YMB person hasn't come yet.  

Also I believe that Cersei now sees herself as the most secure and whole person she's ever been.  You can see her dripping confidence and self-assurance all ep 10.  Finally she has her own power - not just what's granted to her by father or husband or sons or brothers.  However removed from reality that belief may be.  In Cerseis mind, she is at the apex.  Ready to be cast down. 

[kimim]

26 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

...

Also I believe that Cersei now sees herself as the most secure and whole person she's ever been.  You can see her dripping confidence and self-assurance all ep 10.  Finally she has her own power - not just what's granted to her by father or husband or sons or brothers.  However removed from reality that belief may be.  In Cerseis mind, she is at the apex.  Ready to be cast down. 

I disagree. This is not what she wanted all along. She has been driven to this point through a series of losses and mistakes, many of them of her own making. I find this character fascinating, in that what we saw in episode 10 was a tragic fall, masquerading as a "rise" as she took the throne. Her hold on that throne is tenuous, to put it mildly, and she is now capable of anything to keep it.

39 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

I disagree that she is one dimensional, although I wholeheartedly agree that she is a villain and not accidentally one of the more sympathetic characters like what the show has spawned.  There is a certain love for her children, although I don't think it's a "pure" maternal love like that of Catelyn, but one that is heavily influenced by them as her link to power.  She also has a pretty damn big inferiority complex going on, and struggles against the sexist institutions of her time (not that she is a feminist).  I don't think one dimensional quite fits, although I agree in that I think one person fits better in the novels.  I would attribute that to greater attention to detail in the writing, but to each their own.

I disagree that she is multi-dimensional in the novels. I agree that she is sympathetic on the show. I agree "greater attention to detail" would have improved the show, in that what fits the novel Cersei does not work for the show Cersei. They should have cut that bit of the prophecy out.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

3 minutes ago, kimim said:

I disagree. This is not what she wanted all along. She has been driven to this point through a series of losses and mistakes, many of them of her own making. I find this character fascinating, in that what we saw in episode 10 was a tragic fall, masquerading as a "rise" as she took the throne. Her hold on that throne is tenuous, to put it mildly, and she is now capable of anything to keep it.

I'm not sure what you think I disagree with here.  As I said, Cerseis self-view of the situation is indeed far removed from reality.  But it is Cersei's perception which matters here - the prophecy is personal to her.  

And be that as it may, she IS still queen and thus has not yet been cast down.  

 

[kimim]

40 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I'm not sure what you think I disagree with here.  As I said, Cerseis self-view of the situation is indeed far removed from reality.  But it is Cersei's perception which matters here - the prophecy is personal to her.  

And be that as it may, she IS still queen and thus has not yet been cast down.  

 

lol you're right. Where I'm disagreeing is that the Cersei at the end of the episode is fully the mad queen, the villain, but for five seasons, she was a more complex figure. The "mad queen" is a tragic fall, not a culmination of her life long dream, and all the people involved in that fall are as much the ones who took "all she held dear," as the person who will finally take the throne from her. A singular nemesis doesn't fit. Not sure if I'm making sense

[Future Null Infinity]

Cersei is fascinating for me, she doesn't lower her guard, no despair, her napalming of her two enemies in the same time was a masterful move 

I just get this thought about Margaery is the YMBQ because I don't really think that Cersei will be alive when Dany reaches KL, I have the feeling that she will be dead long before that, this is why I thought that  Margaery is the YMBQ and Jaime is the valonqar

I mean, Jaime will not sustain the loss of his 3 children, he will probably accuse Cersei for all this misery 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Just now, kimim said:

lol you're right. Where I'm disagreeing is that the Cersei at the end of the episode is fully the mad queen, the villain, but for five seasons, she was a more complex figure. The "mad queen" is a tragic fall, not a culmination of her life long dream, and all the people involved in that fall are as much the ones who took "all she held dear," as the person who will finally take the throne from her. Not sure if I'm making sense

I see what you mean.

I still think she won't consider the prophecy entirely fulfilled until she's no longer queen and has "lost" Jaime too.  And right now she's absolutely sure the prophecy is accurate, since the part about her kids came true 100%

[ThePukwudgie]

Cersei is more powerful now more than ever.

[Drogonthedread]

8 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

Cersei is fascinating for me, she doesn't lower her guard, no despair, her napalming of her two enemies in the same time was a masterful move 

I just get this thought about Margaery is the YMBQ because I don't really think that Cersei will be alive when Dany reaches KL, I have the feeling that she will be dead long before that, this is why I thought that  Margaery is the YMBQ and Jaime is the valonqar

I mean, Jaime will not sustain the loss of his 3 children, he will probably accuse Cersei for all this misery 

So what will he do kill her in the episode... Something has to push Jamie over and it will happen later..

I guess this is how it will happen..

Cersei now think she has removed her threats both tyrion and Margery ..but will hear the news about daenerys coming and tyrion beside her...

There will be many battles of course ...but when dany makes it to KL cersei decides to burn the whole KL and Jamie once again kills the mad Queen but this time fails to save the city and he dies himself along with cersri ..

Thus when dany reaches KL its burnt down ..vision from HOTU happening

[Iron Mother]

15 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

"younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."
I think that the younger queen was Margaery and the prophecy was already fulfilled and it will not be Dany, Cersei held her children the dearest and there is nothing dearest for Cersei in this world more than her children :

• Joffrey was killed by one of Margaery's family (Olenna) because she feared for the safety of Margeary
• Joffrey's death led to a chain of events that in turn led to the death of Myrcella
• Tommen killed himself because of Margaery's death

 

since it was obviously a self-fulfilled prophecy (it turned out that way) and Marjorie was the total focus of everything Cercei "holds dear".......... the only child Marjorie didn't have a direct link to was Myrcella........... I never thought it was Daenerys.  especially not on paper. 

Not just the kinds but M was usurping her as "queen" and making her more irrelevant with each passing day (LF I think said those exact words).  On paper it's more clear..... she's completely fixated on Marjorie and also Loras because she looks at them and sees younger versions of herself and Jaime.  They both look like twins tho are not, are both handsome and beautiful creatures, and she's young so her "reign" with Tommen will last a VERY long time.  Cercei will be diminished and then ash while they are still ruling (if it all went right).

The Volonqyr thing, it's just never mentioned in the show.  But as part of the prophecy, it's totally different than the parts dealing with the "new younger queen" and dealing with her children.  I think that is a "on-paper-only" thing.