WrathOfTinyKittens Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said: Ah. I didn't get that Cnaiur was in love, just attracted. Though that first paragraph makes it more sound like Proyas wants Cnaiur, not the other way around. But yeah, prepping Proyas for Cnaiur would be an interesting narrative arc. They're both like 70 now, right? Let's go for that lemonparty with gusto. Interestingly, the glossary in TTT doesn't give us birth years for either, but we can estimate. - Proyas: Was a child under Akka's tutelage. Is not yet King and not yet (IIRC) married during the First Holy War. I would've put his age around late 20s, meaning that he'd be in his 40s or 50s in AE, but he also seems to be of an age with Saubon, who is 43 as of the Battle of Caraskand. So anywhere from 40s to early 60s is plausible. - Cnaiur was an adolescent when Moe came through in about 4080, seemingly a bit older than Saubon. So he has to be in his late 60s or early 70s. Ugh, this is actually pretty ridiculous, because Akka has to be, at a minimum, 20 years older than Proyas, which means that either Proyas is much younger than Saubon or that Akka is older than shit during the second trilogy, old enough that it's completely implausible that he is physically able to keep up with the Skin-Eaters (if it wasn't already) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themerchant Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 That's why the non-man had to give them quirri, akka even requests it as he can't keep up with the skin eaters. Qurri fueled Akka and Mimara have enough endurance it makes the young Dunyain struggle. Nersei Tirummas is Proyas older brother and was born in 4075. Proyas is young like Conphas. Cnaiur was over 45 at the start of the series. I think Akka is near his age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 The idea that sodomizing Proyas is preparation for a Nayu+Proyas love affair is hilarious. And it makes me think of The False Sun and how Shae's initiation to the darkside wasn't just philosophical but physical as he made Aurang his lover. Perhaps, then, we're getting a mirrored situation, where Nayu seduces Proyas, in every sense, into the Consult. Remember, Proyas is a religious guy. And so, if Proyas disbelieves in Kellhus, he realizes that a life spent worshiping Kellhus is a life that has led him towards damnation. And what would Proyas do when he realizes - and truly believes as is his wont - that he is damned? Also, I swear Akka's age is stated as being 43 somewhere in the first series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrathOfTinyKittens Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 17 minutes ago, themerchant said: That's why the non-man had to give them quirri, akka even requests it as he can't keep up with the skin eaters. Qurri fueled Akka and Mimara have enough endurance it makes the young Dunyain struggle. Nersei Tirummas is Proyas older brother and was born in 4075. Proyas is young like Conphas. Cnaiur was over 45 at the start of the series. I think Akka is near his age. Ok, I'm glad you found another reference for Proyas. That makes everything make much more sense. If Akka is around Cnaiur's age then I think it all works. You can be in your 60s and still pretty fit, much more difficult in your 80s And yeah, I know the Qirri is to help his endurance, but if he were in his 70s or 80s then he wouldn't have been able to keep up pre-Qirri either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyCharms Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Akka is 47 at the beginning of TDTCB. About two years pass in the first trilogy. Makes him 69 at the beginning of TJE. About a year has passed, so let's round up to 70. Cnaiur is 44 at the beginning of TDTCB. Makes him about 66 in TGO. I always thought Proyas was about the same age as Conphas, so 28 at the start of PON. Makes him 50 in TAE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrathOfTinyKittens Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 7 minutes ago, LuckyCharms said: Akka is 47 at the beginning of TDTCB. About two years pass in the first trilogy. Makes him 69 at the beginning of TJE. About a year has passed, so let's round up to 70. Cnaiur is 44 at the beginning of TDTCB. Makes him about 66 in TGO. I always thought Proyas was about the same age as Conphas, so 28 at the start of PON. Makes him 50 in TAE. Not that I doubt you, but where are you getting the ages for them? The appendix and the wiki don't list dates for those three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all swedes are racist Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Fairly certain their Akka and Cnaiurs ages are listed in the TDTCB appendix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 2 hours ago, Claustrophobic Jurble said: The idea that sodomizing Proyas is preparation for a Nayu+Proyas love affair is hilarious. And it makes me think of The False Sun and how Shae's initiation to the darkside wasn't just philosophical but physical as he made Aurang his lover. I'm pretty sure Aurang made him his lover, but yeah. That being said, I figured Inchoroi basically fuck as a means of virtually everything. It's their social ketchup. 2 hours ago, Claustrophobic Jurble said: Perhaps, then, we're getting a mirrored situation, where Nayu seduces Proyas, in every sense, into the Consult. Remember, Proyas is a religious guy. And so, if Proyas disbelieves in Kellhus, he realizes that a life spent worshiping Kellhus is a life that has led him towards damnation. And what would Proyas do when he realizes - and truly believes as is his wont - that he is damned? I'd buy this as a reason to turn Proyas against Kellhus or make Proyas not believe Kellhus. I don't buy it as a reason to rape him. Also, the notion that being raped by a man would make a man more likely to want to have sex with other men? Not a great message. Right up there with the Whale Mothers as far as implausibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Does Proyas think of it as rape, though? It is by our standards, but Bakkerworld likely has a very archaic (though not apparently as archaic as it ought to be even in some modern places...) notion where the victim has to actively cry and resist or else it's not rape. If Proyas has internalized that sort of mindset, then when Cnaiur invites him onto the trackless steppe, Proyas might not necessarily want to get buggered, but he might shrug and go along because of whatever psychological shock he's gotten from accepting his damnation alongside his own notion that he'd acquiesced to Kellhus previously. Or perhaps he'd exult in the degradation Nonman-style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I'm fairly certain that Proyas considers it rape. Kellhus doesn't condition him to enjoy it (Kellhus could simply make Proyas love it and him) - he simply has to take it, and IIRC afterwards there's mentions of disgust at the smell and feelings of pain and embarrassment. Though only for a short bit, mind you. But again, if the plot is to condition Proyas' butthole so that it's more inclined to Cnaiur, and that's a major plot point of the next book, that's both very problematic and deeply stupid. (but still not as stupid as the whale mothers) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said: I'm fairly certain that Proyas considers it rape. Kellhus doesn't condition him to enjoy it (Kellhus could simply make Proyas love it and him) - he simply has to take it, and IIRC afterwards there's mentions of disgust at the smell and feelings of pain and embarrassment. Though only for a short bit, mind you. But again, if the plot is to condition Proyas' butthole so that it's more inclined to Cnaiur, and that's a major plot point of the next book, that's both very problematic and deeply stupid. (but still not as stupid as the whale mothers) I dunno, the whale mothers didnt make me throw my books out and dump the series forever, proyas' conditioned butthole might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 8 hours ago, Werthead said: I agree it is unlikely that the series is going to take off massively, but I don't think the denseness or prose experimentation are a problem. Frank Herbert and Steven Erikson's books are far denser and feature much more prose experimentation, and both were bestsellers (although it took Erikson a long, long time to get there). You really think Erikson has denser prose? I mean I love me my Malzan to death but I never found anything really dense about any of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuenjato Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 9 hours ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said: Huh. Didn't pick that up at all. I really didn't remember that he thought Proyas was beautiful. There is a part about how he's annoyed at himself for being outraged at watching Kellhus manipulate them all - even Proyas - but the implication there is that he actually dislikes Proyas. After my re-read earlier this year, it's pretty obvious how Cnair thinks of Proyas, and how he stifles it (and fails). I didn't pick it up the first two times I read the series, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuenjato Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said: You really think Erikson has denser prose? I mean I love me my Malzan to death but I never found anything really dense about any of it. Erikson's books are bigger, but I didn't read anything in the first four that comes close to some of the stuff in TGO (or in the whole Aspect Emperor series, really). Maybe in his later books, but I haven't and won't continue on... the flaws outweighed the good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I may be immune to dense prose because of Wolfe. But I've never understood the dense prose complaint/compliment (depending on who's talking) regarding Malazan, although Forge of Darkness gets a little weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 "dunno, the whale mothers didnt make me throw my books out and dump the series forever, proyas' conditioned butthole might." The only thing that almost made me do that in TGO was the Theliopa gives Kelmomas a bath scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Oh don't get me wrong - I wasn't offended by the whale mothers. I just thought it was really dumb and the whole concept took me immediately out of the horror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Yeah, I don't think anyone found the whale mothers offensive so much as ridiculous. They were redeemed by the idea of genetics being teleological, with the women shifting physically toward God's intended purpose....which is where it would've been great to leave it but then we got clarification that it was just arbitrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 it's the same as in dune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 If Dunyain women turned into whales over time, how can Kellhus produce normal girls with Esmenet? When he mates with the whales they produce that look and function like whales, but when he mates with Esmenet he produces normal girls that look like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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