Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I'm very intrigued by the possibility that Mimara's experiences and feelings have an effect on the JE. So she sees Koringhus as damned, but after he wigs out and jumps off a cliff she and the JE approve? As if that was what she wanted (his death), so the JE approves. Never looked at it that way.

But she approved before he jumped off a cliff, so that seems a bit off.

[Sci-2]

I think Solo's point is that the caged women are seen as a mortal sin beyond redemption precisely because it reminds Mimara of a time when she was caged.

Similarly she sees Galian's damnation in context to her own experiences, but in that case somehow some mural on a wall (perfectly?) mirrors what happens to him.

[PapushiSun]

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Similarly she sees Galian's damnation in context to her own experiences, but in that case somehow some mural on a wall (perfectly?) mirrors what happens to him.

I don't remember this mural.

Some thoughts about Earthquakes and Gods. According to Malowebi, catastrophes like earthquakes, floods, famines, wars, are the Gods' hands, with which they gripped and steered the world. This seems to suggest that Gods directly cause catastrophes.

But in another scene, when Kelmomas and his twin discuss the White-Luck warrior, Kelmomas seems sceptical about the idea that Gods can cause such catastrophes. He thinks the Gods only know when these catastrophes happen instead of causing them. Sammi replies that perhaps there's no difference and the conversation ends.

So perhaps neither of the earthquakes were caused by the Gods. Instead the Gods reveal their knowledge to select people or position their chosen ones (WLW, Psatma, Kelmomas) to make use of such catastrophes.

Also, we know Kellhus takes time to translocate as he has to travel from horizon to horizon. Since he appears in Fanayal's tent within moments of the earthquake, he must've left Dagliash long before the earthquake. So the possibilities are:

1. He knew the earthquake would happen (just as Gods do) and left in order to appear at the right time.
2. His arrival immediately after the earthquake is coincidental, a "fortuitous correspondence of cause".
3. ??? Some other possibility I haven't thought of.

Finally, it's interesting that Kellhus says that he returned to salvage what he could. Is this evidence for Maithanet's suspicions that Kellhus compromised his mission because of his feelings for Esmenet? He seemed resigned to losing the Empire in the Judging Eye. Why would he abandon the Ordeal just before Golgotterath?

[kuenjato]

1 hour ago, PapushiSun said:

.

Also, we know Kellhus takes time to translocate as he has to travel from horizon to horizon. Since he appears in Fanayal's tent within moments of the earthquake, he must've left Dagliash long before the earthquake. So the possibilities are:

1. He knew the earthquake would happen (just as Gods do) and left in order to appear at the right time.
2. His arrival immediately after the earthquake is coincidental, a "fortuitous correspondence of cause".
3. ??? Some other possibility I haven't thought of.

Finally, it's interesting that Kellhus says that he returned to salvage what he could. Is this evidence for Maithanet's suspicions that Kellhus compromised his mission because of his feelings for Esmenet? He seemed resigned to losing the Empire in the Judging Eye. Why would he abandon the Ordeal just before Golgotterath?

The Dagliash battle takes place in 'late summer,' the final Momemn chapter in 'early autumn.' There's some interesting time flux going on with the various arcs. 

[PapushiSun]

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The Dagliash battle takes place in 'late summer,' the final Momemn chapter in 'early autumn.' There's some interesting time flux going on with the various arcs. 

I haven't paid enough attention to those.

[LuckyCharms]

I'm repeating myself from the other thread, but the time discrepancies are due to the schlocky presentation of the official publication which is basically the rough draft of the ARC and wasn't edited further.

Battle of Dagliash is Late Summer.

Akka and Mimara see the mushroom cloud the next chapter in Early Autumn.

Then the Ordeal is recovering in the next chapter in Late Summer—but the mushroom cloud is gone at this point so how can Akka/Mimara see it in the future?

Kellhus comes back to Momemn in Mid-Autumn.

But then Akka and Mimara encountering Cnaiur seems to have sent them back in time to Late Summer.

The progression of time in all of the preceding books is iron-tight.  So it's then hard to make arguments from this book in regards to chronology because there are such clear and apparent errors.

[jurble]

3 hours ago, PapushiSun said:

Why would he abandon the Ordeal just before Golgotterath?

My speculation in the previous thread was that either:

1.  Kellhus always intended to sacrifice the Ordeal to summon the No-God with the intent to seal the Heavens, destroying the Consult as a secondary goal. 

2. Kellhus always intended to sacrifice the Ordeal to speed the No-God's summoning, because the ~200k warriors of the Ordeal are nothing compared to army a unified humanity could field once the No-God is summoned.

3. The nuke was unexpected, the destruction of the Horde has destroyed the Ordeal's food supply.  The Ordeal is now a lost-cause.  Kellhus has returned to reassess his options.

 

[themerchant]

On 21/07/2016 at 2:53 AM, Triskan said:

 

At some point he says something like "I would not see Proyas harmed."  But this is a new angle. 

Says it to Akka when he tells him that Conphas is coming, akka forgets to tell anyone as all he can think of is the Kellhus revelations, then he routs conphas.

Cnaiur thinks quite a bit about Proyas, his long lashes etc.

[themerchant]

20 hours ago, Hello World said:

If Dunyain women turned into whales over time, how can Kellhus produce normal girls with Esmenet?

When he mates with the whales they produce that look and function like whales, but when he mates with Esmenet he produces normal girls that look like him.

He produced 2 "normal" girls and "abominations" with esme and "abominations" with other females.

I have no idea how this mechanism happens, or how saying one thing and thinking two other things can teleport you across space. Or how you turn into salt once an iron sphere with drawings on it touches you.

 

 

[themerchant]

5 hours ago, PapushiSun said:

I don't remember this mural.

 

i believe it's a mural of the "excrustria"(?) (excruciating)back in mommen  of hell and she sees the truth of it. maybe 1000 levels or some such, it's near the end of the WLW.

[PapushiSun]

4 hours ago, Claustrophobic Jurble said:

Kellhus always intended to sacrifice the Ordeal to speed the No-God's summoning, because the ~200k warriors of the Ordeal are nothing compared to army a unified humanity could field once the No-God is summoned.

This is a huge risk since the No-God came very close to winning in the First Apocalypse, especially if he can destroy the consult before the No-God is resurrected.

Regarding the dream that Kellhus has of the No-God. The two key lines I think are:
 

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It stands before him, regards him-as it has so many time-with his face and his eyes. No halo gilds his leonine mane.

Then who better to burn them?

 

More evidence for Kellhus-is-the-No-God theory or red herring? The latter I think. Perhaps the No-God trying and failing to win Kellhus over to his side.

[Spring Bass]

With

6 hours ago, Claustrophobic Jurble said:

My speculation in the previous thread was that either:

1.  Kellhus always intended to sacrifice the Ordeal to summon the No-God with the intent to seal the Heavens, destroying the Consult as a secondary goal. 

2. Kellhus always intended to sacrifice the Ordeal to speed the No-God's summoning, because the ~200k warriors of the Ordeal are nothing compared to army a unified humanity could field once the No-God is summoned.

3. The nuke was unexpected, the destruction of the Horde has destroyed the Ordeal's food supply.  The Ordeal is now a lost-cause.  Kellhus has returned to reassess his options.

 

#3 is how I interpreted as well. I don't think Kellhus knew about the nuke - he just Dunyain-read the intentions of the Inchoroi in what he found and deduced quickly that it was somehow something they intended to use to destroy his army.

[.H.]

To confound it, Kellhus cryptic statement "that this is a good thing" seems to imply that indeed the Ordeal is simply there to die, in fact, perhaps that it is advantageous that they die sooner reather than later.  In WLW, Chapter 7, it is even plainly stated by the "narrator" that: " ... in truth, all the Men of the Ordeal in their countless, shining thousands were little more than a vehicle for the safe conveyance of the Schools."

I do agree, I think the Tekne-nuke was unexpected, but I think Kellhus knew full well Dagliash itself was a trap but he knew he had to spring it.

 

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

7 hours ago, Claustrophobic Jurble said:

My speculation in the previous thread was that either:

1.  Kellhus always intended to sacrifice the Ordeal to summon the No-God with the intent to seal the Heavens, destroying the Consult as a secondary goal. 

2. Kellhus always intended to sacrifice the Ordeal to speed the No-God's summoning, because the ~200k warriors of the Ordeal are nothing compared to army a unified humanity could field once the No-God is summoned.

3. The nuke was unexpected, the destruction of the Horde has destroyed the Ordeal's food supply.  The Ordeal is now a lost-cause.  Kellhus has returned to reassess his options.

 

Yeah, 3 is close to my interpretation as well.  Allowing the NG to be summoned to unify humanity is too risky for a Dunyain as a first plan.  It does, however, make a great fall-back plan if the Ordeal is destroyed.  

However, that said, I don't think Kellhus is abandoning the Ordeal as a lost cause.  He tells us pretty clearly that the destruction of the Empire was anticipated but that his visceral reaction to it - his heart being destroyed - was not.  I honestly think he returned to the Empire to save it for emotional, rather than logical, reasons (possibly abetted by eating the Sranc).

45 minutes ago, .H. said:

To confound it, Kellhus cryptic statement "that this is a good thing" seems to imply that indeed the Ordeal is simply there to die, in fact, perhaps that it is advantageous that they die sooner reather than later.  In WLW, Chapter 7, it is even plainly stated by the "narrator" that: " ... in truth, all the Men of the Ordeal in their countless, shining thousands were little more than a vehicle for the safe conveyance of the Schools."

I just don't think it makes any sense that he is deliberately sacrificing the Ordeal (which also entails sacrificing the Empire, as his POV tells us) unless his goal is to either become the No-God himself or to aid the Consult in resurrecting it.

 

Another point regarding Whale Mothers and "normal" women among the Dunyain: when Kellhus meets the trapper, he is able to discern the man's devotion to his dead wife.  If the only women Kellhus had ever been exposed to were the Whale Mothers, I have a hard time believing that he would be able to so unerringly understand the concept.  Especially since this is before his encounter with Mekeritrig, so he is still pure Dunyain/empiricist at this point.

That kind of raises another question, though, which runs through the whole series.  The Dunyain practice mastering emotions and their expressions, but beyond the children (who we know are already born with stunted emotional capacity), who are they able to practice this on?  How are they able to observe the effects of emotions outside of the Defectives in the face room?

I would contend that there was a whole secondary Dunyain society composed of Defectives at Ishual.  We get confirmation of this - sort of - in TGO.  On p. 220:

They used the labyrinth to sort those who would live from those who would die, and those who would work from those who would train and father.

So we know they are stratified into classes.  So I think that these Defectives provide them not only with the raw materials they use, but also "field experience" for their reading of faces.

I know it's a stretch, but what else is this thread for? 

[sologdin]

8 hours ago, Claustrophobic Jurble said:

 

3. The nuke was unexpected, the destruction of the Horde has destroyed the Ordeal's food supply.  The Ordeal is now a lost-cause.  Kellhus has returned to reassess his options.

 

nah, they'll just eat the weak. cannibalism was already a master figure of the second series (baby kel, sranc filets, qirri), but is unequivocal in volume VI, wherein oirunas laments 'this is our cannibal fate' (332) and AK enjoins NP to eat the nuked ordealers ('something must be eaten ... do you understand me?' (414)).

on oirunas--his stuff is better than wutteat for me.  what a kickass development.  how well earned is it? had oirunas been mentioned ever before? 

[jurble]

1 hour ago, sologdin said:

nah, they'll just eat the weak. cannibalism was already a master figure of the second series (baby kel, sranc filets, qirri), but is unequivocal in volume VI, wherein oirunas laments 'this is our cannibal fate' (332) and AK enjoins NP to eat the nuked ordealers ('something must be eaten ... do you understand me?' (414)).

on oirunas--his stuff is better than wutteat for me.  what a kickass development.  how well earned is it? had oirunas been mentioned ever before? 

In regards to cannibalism, Kellhus feeds Proyas human flesh earlier as noted by someone in the previous thread.  Loki pointed out that in the first series, Kellhus was the only one to survive the desert without losing weight, and thus he likely ate the Hundred Pillars - remember that his ceremonial guard, the aforementioned pillars, were named for those who publicly sacrificed their water for him in the desert.  Presumably, he ate them as well, though this wasn't made public fact.

 

And Oirunas was mentioned in the TTT appendix, but not the narrative-proper, I believe.

[Cithrin's Ale]

I find it interesting how Kellhus' return to the New Empire contradicts Maithanet's thoughts on the matter at the end of WLW. Maithanet argued to Esmi that Kellhus saw no point in saving the empire since it had served its purpose. Despite this, Kellhus tried to salvage it.

I can identify several reasons for this. I always toyed with the idea that Maithanet was lying to Esmi in order to manipulate her and remain surprised that she believed in him despite knowing his Dunyain heritage. Assuming that Kellhus ate Sranc (and I'm inclined to believe this since Proyas' thoughts on the matter conclude a chapter, giving it a feeling to me of dramatic heft), his emotional connection to the Empire might have overruled his reasoning. Kellhus might also have come not to salvage the empire, but for an alternate purpose, perhaps involving Kelmomas.

The recent theory that the nuke was unintentional and forced Kellhus to change his strategy also works well.

 

[Kalbear]

15 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

I think Solo's point is that the caged women are seen as a mortal sin beyond redemption precisely because it reminds Mimara of a time when she was caged.

Similarly she sees Galian's damnation in context to her own experiences, but in that case somehow some mural on a wall (perfectly?) mirrors what happens to him.

Yeah, I just don't buy that at all. First there's a difference between what you're saying - that she sees Galian as damned and then projects what damnation would look like to him - and what Solo is saying, which is that she is personally offended by something and thus projects damnation onto it. 

Mostly, however, I think that we aren't going to go particularly deeper on this. Bakker got offended that people weren't offended more by the imagery. He defending the bad genetics and told people to relax, because it's a fantasy. And as I said, Kellhus also thinks on this and thinks that it is hugely bad. 

It's certainly possible that the Judging Eye is not ominscient or is not only a view from a specific god but Mimara, but that seems pretty suspect at this late stage - especially given Koringhus' reaction to it and her and what she can do. 

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He produced 2 "normal" girls and "abominations" with esme and "abominations" with other females.

I have no idea how this mechanism happens, or how saying one thing and thinking two other things can teleport you across space. Or how you turn into salt once an iron sphere with drawings on it touches you.

 

The latter two examples are actually pretty well explained in the books. The whale mothers are contradicted both by what happens in the books and what happens in real life. It's really, really hard for you to even consider the notion that Bakker got something wrong, isn't it?

[sologdin]

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hard for you to even consider the notion that Bakker got something wrong, isn't it?

there's no need to argue it like that, kal.  we all might reasonably disagree on what is plausible within a particular secondary world setting; internal incoherence is likely to be more salient than comparison with the Real--in that latter comparison, the books are 100% asinine. i happen to think that the whaleness is silly and unnecessary; the narrative development is sufficiently horrific without the corporeal alterations to persons whose purpose is to endure involuntary pregnancy. am preferring, personally, however to minimize that particular gustatory objection regarding the silliness/implausibility.

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which is that she is personally offended by something and thus projects damnation onto it. 

sorta.  i think the rhetoric of the scene indicates that 'whale mothers' is very plainly her designation for the victims of involuntary pregnancy and that the judgment of the JE is inflected by her childhood memory; the JE might well be something separate and apart from her own emotional response, but the presentation does not indicate what--we might suggest it is implausible.  probably a careful reading of all the other JE scenes for this sort of ideological window-dressing would be a productive effort.

[Kalbear]

22 minutes ago, sologdin said:

there's no need to argue it like that, kal.  we all might reasonably disagree on what is plausible within a particular secondary world setting; internal incoherence is likely to be more salient than comparison with the Real--in that latter comparison, the books are 100% asinine. i happen to think that the whaleness is silly and unnecessary; the narrative development is sufficiently horrific without the corporeal alterations to persons whose purpose is to endure involuntary pregnancy. am preferring, personally, however to minimize that particular gustatory objection regarding the silliness/implausibility.

Given prior arguments I think that it was a reasonable point. One of the most common counterarguments to anything that goes wrong in the books is that 'wait and see - it might be Really Meaningful!' And that's true, but not that useful as a counterpoint. Based on the data we have now + the data we got from Bakker (where he basically didn't care about the genetic part and told @Claustrophobic Jurble to relax about the details), there just isn't going to be depth there. 

And if you want to explain it as 'just fantasy', okay - but then nothing really has particular meaning or importance either. Anything can be justified as 'just a story'. 

I agree with you that it was sufficiently horrible without the deformity of women. I think, actually, it's a lot more horrible if you can't make the women into something that isn't human. By making them inhuman, you reduce the horribleness of the human women (you can justify their pain as them being bred to enjoy it, or not having any ability to even sense it, or any number of BS things) and increase the horror of a man being forced to have sex with an ugly woman. And that's...not a great message either.

22 minutes ago, sologdin said:

sorta.  i think the rhetoric of the scene indicates that 'whale mothers' is very plainly her designation for the victims of involuntary pregnancy and that the judgment of the JE is inflected by her childhood memory; the JE might well be something separate and apart from her own emotional response, but the presentation does not indicate what--we might suggest it is implausible.  probably a careful reading of all the other JE scenes for this sort of ideological window-dressing would be a productive effort.

Whale mothers isn't just the designation for involuntary pregnancy - it's that they are literally misshapen and inhuman other than their skulls. Akka remarks on this as well. So does Kellhus. Whale-mothers is simply a descriptive, but it's not linked to the TJE at all and we have several witness accounts that indicate this is just what they look like. This is what Akka says:

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“What is this place?” he calls with a kind of querulous wonder.

A tingling horror stops her reply.

“These bones...” he continues. “Other than the skulls, they aren’t... human.”

And here's her description before the JE opens:

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She swallows against a nail in the back of her throat. Stepping across a shattered sword, she approaches the nearest pedestal to her right. Bones and dust, dimpled and ragged like sheets of rotted skin, crowd the interior. Jawless skulls tipped on their sides. Ribs like halved hoops, implying torsos far broader than her embrace. Femurs like clubs, still threading the iron straps that had once restrained them. Pelvises, rising like antlers from the detritus...

Now, here's the part that might be projection:

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But the horror the Eye reveals before her...

The insect obscenity of their innocent forms. Bulbous, their flesh little more than quivering cages. Women bred into monstrous instruments of procreation, until they had become little more than pouches slung about their wombs.

The misery. The huffing and moaning. The mewling screams. The inhuman men filing to their assignations, utterly heartless and insensate. The slapping of hip and genitalia. The animality of coupling stripped to its essential germ, to the milking pitch of insemination...

Sadism without desire. Cruelty–unimaginable cruelty–absent the least will to inflict suffering.

Now, keep in mind that while she might be projecting, we know she sees things clearly that she has never, ever experienced - because Koringhus never told her anything about the 100 stones. The guy on the slog she tells about his past never mentioned that to anyone. We have evidence several times where she can see something of the entire causal arc for someone's damnation. There's no reason to suspect that this isn't the case here.