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Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II


kuenjato

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No disagreement about lack of setup to Monmen ending. But I've been rereading the WLW pov and I got to say that it changes more than I think we realized before this book, so some subtlety was laid down we all missed. 

*******

The Narindar frowned and smiled. “The Four-Horned Brother … Do you know why he is shunned by the others? Why my Cult and my Cult alone is condemned by the Tusk?”

The White-Luck Warrior saw himself shrug.

*******

Then later that same chapter:

********

“The Four-Horned Brother …” the long-haired man was saying. “Do you know why he is shunned by the others? Why my Cult and my Cult alone is condemned in the Tusk?”

“Ajokli is the Fool,” he heard himself reply."

The long-haired man smiled. “He only seems such because he sees what the others do not see … What you do not see.”
 

******
 

 

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22 minutes ago, PapushiSun said:

One of the characters tells Esmenet that he survived one when he was younger and warns her to expect aftershocks. Suggests that Momemn is prone to earthquakes.

This is someone much older than Esmi. Esmi hasn't experienced an earthquake, like, ever as far as we can tell, and she's lived in Momemn for 20 years. An earthquake every 30 years isn't really 'prone' to it. And it's not clear that the guy was talking about experiencing it in Momemn, either - he only knows what an earthquake is like, not one specifically in Momemn.

You can also judge by how much damage is caused that they're pretty rare. Momemn is hugely built up as far as cities go, and the palaces were old when Esmi got there - she remarks on this several times how old the palace and the Heights are. If Momemn had a number of severe earthquakes chances are good you'd see much more example of rebuilding of these palaces, instead of repurposing. 

And none of that excuses the silliness of the earthquake happening as Momemn is surrounded by enemies for the first time in like 150 years, and that earthquake happening to destroy the wall. I'd just as assume it was Kellhus wrecking shit when he arrives. That would make more narrative sense.

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24 minutes ago, unJon said:

No disagreement about lack of setup to Monmen ending. But I've been rereading the WLW pov and I got to say that it changes more than I think we realized before this book, so some subtlety was laid down we all missed. 

I don't think anyone missed that. MSJ has been mentioning it for a while. 

The problem is that there's no indication that Ajokli can obliterate what the other gods see and make it not happen. The WLW sees Kellhus die by the sword, after all. The above indicates that Ajolkli can see more than the other gods, but change what the gods see? Alter their fate and destiny? None of that is remotely hinted at.

 

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Oh people have been mentioning that the WLW povs differ pre reading TGO? I've missed that. 

 

Main other news Big Moe is alive shippers got a boost in this book. We long argued whether the Cish could shapeshifter faces in a realistic way. That's the crux of the Nerdanel argument that it wasn't really Big Moe in the end of TTT. The scene with Mallahat in TDTCB was ambiguous how realistic the faces shift was. But the scene with Meppa pretending to be Fanayal at the meeting with Esmi pretty definitively answers the realism question. 

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"She is inclined to see history as degeneration. Years ago, not long after her mother had brought her to the Andiamine Heights, an earthquake struck Momemn, not severe, but violent enough to crack walls and to set arms and ornaments toppling."

 

It's not much, but there is some established canon that Momemn lies on a fault line or something.  This is before Mimara contemplates the Osto-Didian.  The very first page of the final Cil-Aujas chapter.

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17 minutes ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

none of that excuses the silliness of the earthquake happening as Momemn is surrounded by enemies for the first time in like 150 years, and that earthquake happening to destroy the wall.

Agreed that the conclusion to the Momemn storyline is unsatisfactory.

Quote

I'd just as assume it was Kellhus wrecking shit when he arrives.

That would be better but not by much.

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5 minutes ago, LuckyCharms said:

"She is inclined to see history as degeneration. Years ago, not long after her mother had brought her to the Andiamine Heights, an earthquake struck Momemn, not severe, but violent enough to crack walls and to set arms and ornaments toppling."

 

It's not much, but there is some established canon that Momemn lies on a fault line or something.  This is before Mimara contemplates the Osto-Didian.  The very first page of the final Cil-Aujas chapter.

That's fair. I certainly missed it. So that's like an earthquake every 10 or so years. Though that makes you wonder why Esmi didn't know what was going to happen in an earthquake, given that she was there and brought Mimara there. 

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Regarding the WLW....could the nuke have made Kellhus change his mind about going back to Momemn?

It seems he went back specifically to change Fate, due to some shift in the timeline. If the nuke changes something to do with the No-God, does that also make Kellhus' own destiny alterable?

Though there is something a bit weird with the No God - were none of the Hundred aware the cycle of souls had been broken?

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5 minutes ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

why Esmi didn't know what was going to happen in an earthquake, given that she was there and brought Mimara there. 

Perhaps this was her first big one. Perhaps the other guy was just telling her what she already knew.

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Just now, PapushiSun said:

Perhaps this was her first big one. Perhaps the other guy was just telling her what she already knew.

That would have been awesome. Some internal monologue about 'why is this fool telling me about the mechanics of an earthquake that I was here for? Does he think all women so ignorant, or is he simply too fond of explaining things that women already know to them?'

The implication for me was that Esmi didn't know, but sure, that's plausible.

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I don't know.  It seems like a specious argument to require Esmi to think about historical precedence for earthquakes as this one is happening.  Kal was arguing that the introspection in the prologue ruins the flow of that section.  But we need it here suddenly?

7 minutes ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

'why is this fool telling me about the mechanics of an earthquake that I was here for? Does he think all women so ignorant, or is he simply too fond of explaining things that women already know to them?'

And thus Momemn has the historical regularity of one earthquake every 8 years, thus it was recorded in the Annals of Cenei by Casidas, or whatever.  I feel like that would have ruined the flow of this section.  She doesn't need to make an inventory of past occurrences to make it believable.  Though I may be talking out of my ass—going to reread that section tomorrow.

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Just now, LuckyCharms said:

I don't know.  It seems like a specious argument to require Esmi to think about historical precedence for earthquakes as this one is happening.  Kal was arguing that the introspection in the prologue ruins the flow of that section.  But we need it here suddenly?

You don't need it in this book at all, actually. The best way to do it is to do it early in, say, TJE - have a reasonably strong earthquake (similar to the one Mimara felt) hit when they're interviewing the Matriarch, or when they're about to do the funeral of Sammi. Have her observe that the earthquakes seemed to be arriving in greater frequency and were more potent. Then when it happens here, it's lucky - but it at least feels a lot more natural and well-established. 

Though per the text it appears that the earthquake was brought by Psatma and Yatwer (at least the first one) so any setting things up ahead of time would be worthless regardless if you think that gods being able to summon earthquakes is a bit too powerful. Earthquakes themselves seem to belie what we had understood from Meppa and Psatma in WLW about how the gods are completely weak and require people to act through, too. Maybe there's a really bit Tall in the middle of Earwa and Yatwer made him do some Zumba?

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19 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

(No seriously, there are some WEIRD D&D supplements).

Was Bakker originally D&D or was he Gurps?

His latest interview with Grimdark, he said he played Dungeon Master a lot, building worlds to "torture" his friends characters :D

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He saw the Andiamine Heights crashing upon itself, the Empress's eyes flutter about her final breath...

 

 

Skimming through WLW, I noticed that he saw Esmi die in the Earthquake.  So in regards to the discussion in the previous thread of whether Esmi is dead, she is definitely dead. RIP.

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28 minutes ago, Triskan said:

Speaking of the quake, are we supposed to think that the Fanim army is still around and possibly going to attack even with Fanayal dead and Meppa presumably incapacitated/captured?

Towards the end of the novel, it was inferred from Esmi's side (and her generals) that they could hold without Meppa. Kellhus later states to Esmi (last chapter of them) that Fanayal is dead (yup), and his kind scatter. I'd assume that is the case.

Aside, we do get a bit of insight into Kellhus feeling "emotions" to a degree. I like how the last few chapters has him being "honest" with persons close to death, so no real reason to think we are being misled.

With Saubon, he thinks that not all can be saved "is a good thing." And Melwobi, who asks "what are you?" "Weary," Kellhus replies before shunting off his head.

Saubon's was interesting, since Kellhus seems surprised at the nuke (I'm of the same opinion as some on here that it was a Consult plant, but Kellhus "duny'd" it to understand its purpose). He was also "curious" about Melwobi's Ward, and the immense power of Meppa. I found that, pretty damn awesome.

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