House Beaudreau Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 We know that he spent time learning about poisons and might have even tried his had at wizardry. But what I really want to know is about his time with the second sons. We have to assume some of the men in the second sons were around when Oberyn was a member. Did Mero know Oberyn? did Brown Ben? Secondly we know that Oberyn went on to form his own company. But then he left to return to being a prince of Dorne. What company was this? Did they disband after he left? I think its possible that the company that he formed was the Brave Companions. I know but hear me out... The Brave Companions are a relatively young sellsword company, they are very diverse and have several Dornish members, They also have Qyburn, I think Oberyn and Marwyn knew each other, and Qyburn and Marwyn definitely know each other. After Qyburn get stripped of his chain I think he sent him to Oberyn's free company. The Brave Companions are basically responsible for the sparrow movement by all the killing of septons and raping silent sisters and sacking septs in the Riverlands. Doran seemed to know that a religious movement was going to happen in King's Landing and has Arianne study up on the Faith and the History of the High Septons. and is also trying to get in with the High sparrow via the sand snake. If the Brave Companions were working with Dorne from the beginning the crazy moves they make start to make more sense, Like killing Lorch instead of ransoming him, and cutting of Jamie's hand instead of giving him to Roose whole or Ransoming him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Turtle Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Brave Companions are a bulldozer, not a surgeon's knife. They are too unpredictable and unreliable for this type of work. I think that they are simply a bunch of people so despised in their societies that no one else would take them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Beaudreau Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 17 hours ago, Ice Turtle said: Brave Companions are a bulldozer, not a surgeon's knife. They are too unpredictable and unreliable for this type of work. I think that they are simply a bunch of people so despised in their societies that no one else would take them. yeah that makes them perfect for the task they set out to complete. But yes the are all that and more but most of that depravity is related to Vargo Hoat taking over the free company. But the Brave Companion make some pretty calculated choices in the Riverlands. They Change team midway through the War for really no apparent reason, They are Systematically destroying the Faith in the Riverlands and once the capture Jamie, Hoat cut off his Hand. All I'm really saying is it seems that there is more to the Bloody Mummers than they appear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I found Oberyn to be intelligent and thoughtful. His children are brave and loyal if rash. Granted the Brave Companions are an interesting bunch. But they are dumb as bricks, not a real leader among them. Oberyn was not cruel where the Brave Companions are little but cruel. As to turning their cloaks from Tywin mid war...um they are dumb as bricks. I think if they were Oberyn's and had Jamie they would have sent his bashed in head to Tywin instead of just liberating a hand. Why would Marwyn, a high ranking Maester who probably participated in removing Qyburn's chains, send this horror to the Brave Companions for any reason? I wouldn't think that Marwyn would dig the Brave Companions in any way, shape or form. I see where you are trying to connect dots and even understand the logic here. You are on to something, but I don't think your mysterious sellswords are the Brave Companions. Try it with the Windblown or Second Sons and see if that works better with Oberyn. If there is still a company it will me more aligned with the person Oberyn was. Possibly consist of renown spearmen or have a defensive line of poison dart straw blowers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fossoway Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Interesting theory and linkage. We should remember that Oberyn is kinda unpredictable, so him forming a curious band of marauders in Essos and then leaving them just like that, plunging them into chaos is for me plausible. As for Marwyn sending Qyburn to him... It's a long shot, but not unlikely. Even if he participated in taking Mr. Burns chain from him, which I doubt, sending him elsewhere, as far away as possible where he can actually exercise his abilities sounds right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No One of Importance Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 What if his company was the Windblown, and the "Tattered Prince" is a title he passed on when he left? (No evidence for this - just off the top of my head.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I've always been very resistant to the idea that Oberyn founded the Brave Companions. But I did think the other day that if - if - the Bloody Mummers are secretly working for Dorne, then the only way it could work is if Vargo Hoat doesn't know about it. Oberyn would've had to have left a Dornish fifth column inside the organisation. These people could perhaps make sure that a maniac like Hoat ended up in charge, so that if they ever came to Westeros they'd cause havoc - and any extra havoc the fifth column caused wouldn't look out of place. This means that some of their actions, like chopping off Jaime's hand, weren't done for the benefit of Dorne, but perhaps the sacrilege was. As for who comprises the fifth column: I don't know. The only guess I'd venture is Faithful Urswyck, just because he's Faithful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 6 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: I've always been very resistant to the idea that Oberyn founded the Brave Companions. But I did think the other day that if - if - the Bloody Mummers are secretly working for Dorne, then the only way it could work is if Vargo Hoat doesn't know about it. Oberyn would've had to have left a Dornish fifth column inside the organisation. These people could perhaps make sure that a maniac like Hoat ended up in charge, so that if they ever came to Westeros they'd cause havoc - and any extra havoc the fifth column caused wouldn't look out of place. This means that some of their actions, like chopping off Jaime's hand, weren't done for the benefit of Dorne, but perhaps the sacrilege was. As for who comprises the fifth column: I don't know. The only guess I'd venture is Faithful Urswyck, just because he's Faithful. I personally don't think we have seen his company yet, if it still is in operation that is. However I am more and more certain that Qyburn is working for the Dornish and could have easily been nudging Vargo and the other foreigners in the right direction. Qyburn is from Westeros and also is a learned ex Maester certainly his opinion would valued since he knows Westeros better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 On 21/07/2016 at 5:17 AM, Curled Finger said: Try it with the Windblown or Second Sons and see if that works better with Oberyn. It’s not the Second Sons, it’s stated in the books in Tyrion’s POV that he started with the Second Sons and moved on to form his own company. Also, the Second Sons are a very old company, having fought the Dothraki outside Qohor years and years ago. We know the origins of the Windblown, the Tattered Prince founded it with others after he was named Prince of Pentos. The others*may* have included Oberyn, but I doubt it, as I think it’s stated in the books that all the others are dead (I’m not certain of that mind). If Oberyn had founded the Windblown, and it was at all relevant to the story, surely it would have come up when Quentyn was interacting with them? On 20/07/2016 at 7:01 AM, House Beaudreau said: The Brave Companions are basically responsible for the sparrow movement by all the killing of septons and raping silent sisters and sacking septs in the Riverlands. Doran seemed to know that a religious movement was going to happen in King's Landing and has Arianne study up on the Faith and the History of the High Septons. and is also trying to get in with the High sparrow via the sand snake. The Brave Companions weren’t solely responsible for the Sparrow movement, the Mountain, Lorch and Bolton were just as responsible, and to be honest, this seems like an odd thing. How could Oberyn/Doran possibly foresee that laying waste to the Riverlands would lead to a new religious movement? It’s something that makes sense after it happens, but is far from certain at the outset. The plan’s missing a few links. Do we think Doran/Oberyn’s train of thought was “I know, lets unleash some nutcases in the Riverlands, they’ll do all kinds of depraved things to the peasantry and probably some clergy too, that will ignite a new religious movement, which will eventually seize control of the church, Cersei will then give them too much power (because, of course, after Oberyn gets killed fighting the Mountain for Tyrion, Tyrion will escape and kill Tywin and then Cersei will be in charge, did I not mention that that’s *definitely* going to happen?) , they’ll then be able to disrupt things a bit in Kings Landing, which will probably be helpful in the future.” I don’t buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 55 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: “I know, lets unleash some nutcases in the Riverlands, they’ll do all kinds of depraved things to the peasantry and probably some clergy too, that will ignite a new religious movement, which will eventually seize control of the church, Cersei will then give them too much power (because, of course, after Oberyn gets killed fighting the Mountain for Tyrion, Tyrion will escape and kill Tywin and then Cersei will be in charge, did I not mention that that’s *definitely* going to happen?) , they’ll then be able to disrupt things a bit in Kings Landing, which will probably be helpful in the future.” Exactly. The "Dorne started the Sparrows" thing only works if the Dornish were just trying to create some general atrocities that could be pinned on the Lannisters and/or the rest of Westeros, creating grounds for dissent among the peasants, and laying the groundwork for popular support for a future rival king, maybe. But the idea that they could specifically anticipate the Sparrows and are controlling is perhaps a little far-fetched. At least, it would require a hell of a lot more resources than they appear to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Just now, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: Exactly. The "Dorne started the Sparrows" thing only works if the Dornish were just trying to create some general atrocities that could be pinned on the Lannisters and/or the rest of Westeros, creating grounds for dissent among the peasants, and laying the groundwork for popular support for a future rival king, maybe. Exactly right, and while them just wanting to cause general dissent is more plausible, it’s still a bit of a stretch. Slashing and burning others’ lands is a basic strategy that Tywin embarks upon without blinking, and he seems to have hired the Mummers purely for that purpose. If it hadn’t been them it would have been somebody else. Why go to all the trouble of setting them up inside the Lannister camp if Tywin was just going to do what you wanted him to do anyway? It seems like a lot of effort for a very vague possible gain. Oberyn’s backstory does intrigue me though, I do wander whether Tyrion’s inner monologue about him was simply to provide colour to an important cameo character, or whether it has some relevance to the future plot. My instinct says the former but I’m not firm on that. One of the great things about GRRM’s gardener style is that he can plant seeds which may or may not blossom in the future, and even he doesn’t know whether they will, or whether it will be crucial detail or a minor one. We know Oberyn was in the Free Cities, involved in the Free Companies, and at the Citadel. All these are crucial areas within the series, which might become relevant. The issue of Qyburn is more interesting I think, although I reckon his links with Marwyn are more likely to be important than any link with Oberyn. We can *assume* that Marwyn and Oberyn knew each other, but just that; so it’s a bit of a stretch to then also assume a link between Oberyn and Qyburn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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