Heresy 189

[Voice]

51 minutes ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

We still don't have a good answer for what may have set off a Long Night allegedly in between the Pact and the start of the Andal Invasions.

 

I think I've put forth one plausible scenario. Link

[Dornish Neck Tie]

14 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

I think I've put forth one plausible scenario. Link

Will read the whole thing in the morning, but I will say this: In the end, I believe all that matters about the White Walkers is that they're weapons being created and used by someone with human agency, and the the ultimate resolution to the story is probably going to be a struggle to convince whomever it is to call off the dogs (or wolves).

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Phillip Frye said:

What do you mean "akin to"?

The Black Gate is no ordinary portal and we really don't know what lies on the other side of it or where that is. We get a good description of the approach and the magic on the Night Fort side, but have nothing about what's beyond. Presumably the other entrance is hidden by the same magic which conceals the one in the well, but what form it takes and how far beyond the Wall it might be... nothing.

What I'm suggesting is a similar magic back entrance to Winterfell.

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

 

True, but I strongly suspect that the Storm God/Drowned God duality is just a maritime-themed iteration of the CotF-created hive mind known more commonly as the Old Gods, and therefore just evidence of CotF influence post-settlement.

As for the mystery of the basalt structures, I feel they are nothing more than a hazy tale of the way, way, way, way back meant to add texture to GRRM's world-building. I imagine the reason these things are so tantalizing in the first place is because we all know deep down that they will always remain part of the foggy unknown.

 The structures are just there, adding a level of mystery but not directly impacting on the present story, which is why I suggested that the "original" wooden keep in Moat Caillin did not predate the stone structures at all, but was rather built comparatively recently by men effectively camping out in the ancient ruins.

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

Yes, I like this. From what we're shown of the more prestigious, and therefore likely more "pure" in ancestry, First Men and other older houses, many of them seem so distinct from one another (Starks, crannogmen, Daynes, Hightowers, Blackwoods, Iron Born?, etc.) as to hint that they do not really have a population of common origin.

Indeed, and I think that's also implicit in the 100 Kingdoms. There is no one Conqueror, but rather a variety of peoples and cultures arriving at different times, and while some of them are horse-lords, not all have four legs to carry them. Indeed given the way the history of Westeros and its peoples is so consciously modelled on the invasions of the Island of Britain it would be strange indeed if the so-called First Men were a single people with a common culture.

[Voice]

8 hours ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

Will read the whole thing in the morning, but I will say this: In the end, I believe all that matters about the White Walkers is that they're weapons being created and used by someone with human agency, and the the ultimate resolution to the story is probably going to be a struggle to convince whomever it is to call off the dogs (or wolves).

 

You'll probably find many points of agreement in that case. I attribute the cause entirely to human agency.

 

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Indeed given the way the history of Westeros and its peoples is so consciously modelled on the invasions of the Island of Britain it would be strange indeed if the so-called First Men were a single people with a common culture.

 

While I agree there would have been regional differences, considering they were not a sea faring people and were isolated on the continent for thousands of years prior to the Andal Invasion, Rhoynar refugees, and Valyrian colonies, I think they had enough time to develop a common culture. They spoke the same language, understood the same runes, and kept the same gods, after all.

[Melifeather]

The Ironborn are of First Men descent. Their seafaring ways were born out of necessity after their home was separated from the mainland after the hammer of waters.

[Dornish Neck Tie]

10 hours ago, Voice said:

 

I think I've put forth one plausible scenario. Link

Partway through reading, and I like this bit about miasma a lot, though it's a term I'm not too familiar with, so forgive me if I misinterpret your point (it's likely we're just expressing the same ideas in different ways in any case).

I've been of the opinion that whoever these icy weapons were initially, they are now out for bloody vengeance and maybe, ultimately, some form of permanent rest. The cycle of violence perpetuated by Westerosi houses' endless quests for "justice" against each other is. I think, the broad representation of this idea that will end up factoring into the story's resolution.

Apologies for the meandering lack of eloquence; there are many themes in this story I haven't been quite able to put words to yet.

[Voice]

Just now, Dornish Neck Tie said:

Partway through reading, and I like this bit about miasma a lot, though it's a term I'm not too familiar with, so forgive me if I misinterpret your point (it's likely we're just expressing the same ideas in different ways in any case).

I'm happy to discuss anything you'd like here, but it would be easier over there. That conversation has taken some interesting twists and turns.

 

Just now, Dornish Neck Tie said:

I've been of the opinion that whoever these icy weapons were initially, they are now out for bloody vengeance and maybe, ultimately, some form of permanent rest. The cycle of violence perpetuated by Westerosi houses' endless quests for "justice" against each other is. I think, the broad representation of this idea that will end up factoring into the story's resolution.

I agree. And I am of the mind that whatever they were originally, they were further militarized with influence from Bran the Builder (aka, the Night's King), but that's a whole other theory. LOL

 

Just now, Dornish Neck Tie said:

Apologies for the meandering lack of eloquence; there are many themes in this story I haven't been quite able to put words to yet.

No need to apologize. I think we can all relate to that feeling.

[Dornish Neck Tie]

1 hour ago, Voice said:

I'm happy to discuss anything you'd like here, but it would be easier over there. That conversation has taken some interesting twists and turns.

 

I agree. And I am of the mind that whatever they were originally, they were further militarized with influence from Bran the Builder (aka, the Night's King), but that's a whole other theory. LOL

 

No need to apologize. I think we can all relate to that feeling.

I'll set up an account over there pronto! Will probably be commenting very late tonight after work.

As for the Bran the Builder/Night's King bit, we'll likely find ourselves agreeing in broad strokes again.

[Voice]

2 minutes ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

I'll set up an account over there pronto! Will probably be commenting very late tonight after work.

As for the Bran the Builder/Night's King bit, we'll likely find ourselves agreeing in broad strokes again.

[Rodx]

Returning my theory that Petyr's Tapestry is some sort of prophecy (maybe Azhor Ahai's ?) is not based entirely on books or TV foreshadow,but Mythology : http://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/The_Fates/the_fates.html We already know about the Myth of the Fates that forges Humankind destiny with his tapestries,and all the Symbolism of Sansa's and Arya's Needle's ...

[wolfmaid7]

18 hours ago, Voice said:

Sure. But Bran was not destined for just any tree. His attendance was requested at a specific hollow.

While I'm the last person to disapprove of splitting semantic hairs, I must point out that these particular hairs are still growing from an entity that is entirely speculative.

We do not know anyone was able to "see" the Last Hero until he was rescued.

 

Voice our theories while they have some similarities are fundamentally different so our wires and conversation in this regard will always seem none complimentary for core reasons. You believe the Others are something else.Entities ancient and neverseen coming again.

My belief is that the Others,true Others are greenseers .Old and forgotten in some cases thought never to have existed  foes doing as they did with WWs and Wights when they came before.

Conceptually we do know that TLH was seen as long as the COTF could skinchangers,and there was a single pair of living eyes in the forest the party would be seen.

 

18 hours ago, Voice said:

Because the tale of the Last Hero mentions no greenseer, let alone several.

Thus, it is an assumption to assume one or several existed. It is a further assumption to suggest that such presumed greenseer(s) was able to see and/or reach the Last Hero until he was eventually reached.

What you are suggesting is of course possible, but remains an assumption.

Voice it is absolutely impossible for the tale to have mentioned a greenseer.You do see why do you?

So based on that it is sound reasoning.For Instance let's superimpose Bran's disapparence on TLH's story.Nowhere in that retelling would there be an account of a Weirwood tree calling him in his dream.The 3eyc may be turned into Bran going to look for Jon etc.Such things like that stories can't be privy to.Based on Bran's experiance which echoes that of TLH it is very likely that such calls went out to him.

18 hours ago, Voice said:

I'm just hesitant to christen the cotf as the cause of faith in R'hllor.

I'm still not saying that.

18 hours ago, Voice said:

You misunderstand me. The "peace" the cotf sought was not their own. They sought peace for the trees. The Long Night occurred after thousands of years of that peace, and was a time in which the First Men converted to the Old Gods.

Again, by the time of the Andal Invasion, it must be remembered that the First Men and the cotf laid aside petty feuds and fought the Andals together... they attempted to protect the trees from the Andals together.

That may not seem like a big deal to some, but it seems like a big deal to me. Imagine fighting fellow human beings to protect the interest of a non-human race and hallucinogenic trees.

I disagree with you again like the last time we had this arguement.There was still battles occuring between men and cotf and greenseers in the age of heroes..Conversions to the Old gods or not ,Weirwoods were still cut down after the pact when men went back to fighting each other.Or when men enroached on areas designated for the COTF.

I still think you are making that classic mistake in seeing through the view of the conqueror.The COTF lived in clans therefore there was some form of autonomy between them.We can't say that The Pact was a decision made by all the clans for all them.Those in the Deepwoods spoke for those in LOAW,Summer isle etc.Do you know if ALL clans fought? Had the need to? Those are the things needing to be considered to make an informed decision.

19 hours ago, Voice said:

We are told the cotf existed from Dorne to just south of the Lands of Always Winter, but not within the LoAW... and that is not the same thing as "greenseers" existing all over Westeros. Clearly, even the cotf were not incredibly populous. Thus, I would expect a greenseeing child of the forest to be an incredibly rare presence. We have no reason to assume there were many with such talents.

"Yet no matter the truths of their arts the Children were led by their Greenseers and they could be found from the LOAW to the shores of the Summer Sea WB pg 7."

 

I cite the above as proof,that's way way North Voice.....I repeat,the pact wasn't made with every clan of "those whoe sing the song of earth" as not all of them fought.Those that fought are those that inhabited areas men wanted. .

Yep i know the COTF weren't overunning the place.It doesn't mean that they were all confined to green,plain and Deepwoods.

If i had five clones and 4 lived at the cardinal points in CA ,one dead center and the other (pick somewhere) we are living all over CA.

You see what i'm getting to? It just means they were spread out.

19 hours ago, Voice said:

As the Wall blocks the warg-bond, I would assume it is a different power entirely. One that is capable of passing through ice.

In my thinking, Brandon was capable of building the Wall only because he wielded an Other-power.

The Wall blocks communication between a proxy and familar yes,but that isn't quite what happened with Othor and Jaffar.Think Melisandree needing to be taken under Storm's End because her shadows couldn't pass the Wall.The Night's watch took the dead across,but their eyes were already blue.A shadow already inhabited them.The husk of the dead NW members just provided protection going across.

[Tucu]

I watched The Last Witch Hunter (free on Prime) last night. The movie is bad, but the opening sequence seems to have been heavily inspired by A Song of Ice and Fire. A group of men attack a group of magical creatures living under a cave under a giant tree. The sequence is available in youtube and worth watching:

 

[Voice]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Voice our theories while they have some similarities are fundamentally different so our wires and conversation in this regard will always seem none complimentary for core reasons. You believe the Others are something else.Entities ancient and neverseen coming again.

My belief is that the Others,true Others are greenseers .Old and forgotten in some cases thought never to have existed  foes doing as they did with WWs and Wights when they came before.

Conceptually we do know that TLH was seen as long as the COTF could skinchangers,and there was a single pair of living eyes in the forest the party would be seen.

Yup. We're pretty much seeing the same things, but that fundamental disagreement keeps getting in the way.

I'm glad you're seeing a hierarchy in any case, and that you attribute wights to their machinations.

If only you could stop blaming the greenseers.

Man is to blame, not them.

As far as the Last Hero goes, here is all we know of the "eyes" that found him:

All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!"

And ... that's it.

No greenseers. We aren't even told they contacted him. All we are told is that they helped him, and there are a multitude of ways they might have done that. Mayhaps they sent him a direwolf. Mayhaps he found a dragonsteel sword buried in a cache, and attributed the find to the singers.

No tellin.

 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Voice it is absolutely impossible for the tale to have mentioned a greenseer.You do see why do you?

So based on that it is sound reasoning.For Instance let's superimpose Bran's disapparence on TLH's story.Nowhere in that retelling would there be an account of a Weirwood tree calling him in his dream.The 3eyc may be turned into Bran going to look for Jon etc.Such things like that stories can't be privy to.Based on Bran's experiance which echoes that of TLH it is very likely that such calls went out to him.

I see why you think so, but do not agree with the reason. If it would be too obvious for GRRM to say a greenseer helped the Last Hero, then why did he go ahead and write that the cotf helped him? It doesn't make sense.

And again, the anonymity of which you speak did not exist until far more recently. Greenseers weren't a secret. Even the Citadel is familiar with them.

 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I'm still not saying that.

That's what it sounded like:

Quote

 

On 7/22/2016 at 9:46 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

You misunderstand the COTF aren't responsible for the faiths in Asshai.The greensers here are just playing at being R'hollor.Think Stargate.The Egyptian gods were myth,the Gaould made them real by taking on their persona.Turned themselves into the gods that the people believed.

 

 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I disagree with you again like the last time we had this arguement.There was still battles occuring between men and cotf and greenseers in the age of heroes..Conversions to the Old gods or not ,Weirwoods were still cut down after the pact when men went back to fighting each other.Or when men enroached on areas designated for the COTF.

Citation for the bold?

I can provide many to the contrary.

 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I still think you are making that classic mistake in seeing through the view of the conqueror.The COTF lived in clans therefore there was some form of autonomy between them.We can't say that The Pact was a decision made by all the clans for all them.Those in the Deepwoods spoke for those in LOAW,Summer isle etc.Do you know if ALL clans fought? Had the need to? Those are the things needing to be considered to make an informed decision.

Citations for the bold sentences?

I would argue no such text exists.

 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

"Yet no matter the truths of their arts the Children were led by their Greenseers and they could be found from the LOAW to the shores of the Summer Sea WB pg 7."

 

I cite the above as proof,that's way way North Voice.....I repeat,the pact wasn't made with every clan of "those whoe sing the song of earth" as not all of them fought.Those that fought are those that inhabited areas men wanted. .

Yep i know the COTF weren't overunning the place.It doesn't mean that they were all confined to green,plain and Deepwoods.

If i had five clones and 4 lived at the cardinal points in CA ,one dead center and the other (pick somewhere) we are living all over CA.

You see what i'm getting to? It just means they were spread out.

Indeed. We agree they were were not a dense population.

But just as they did not live within the Summer Sea's shoreline, they did not live in the LOAW. The Haunted Forest just southeast of the LOAW, yes. Dorne, yes. But the Summer Sea and the LOAW, no.

Your example proves my point, as you and your clones would be living all over Cali, from Oregon to Baja... but you would not be living in Oregon or Baja.

 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

The Wall blocks communication between a proxy and familar yes,but that isn't quite what happened with Othor and Jaffar.Think Melisandree needing to be taken under Storm's End because her shadows couldn't pass the Wall.The Night's watch took the dead across,but their eyes were already blue.A shadow already inhabited them.The husk of the dead NW members just provided protection going across.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

You concur that the Wall blocks the warg bond.

Thus, Othor and Jafer are not controlled by a warg bond.

You concur that the walls of Storm's End blocked Mel's shadowbinding.

Thus, Othor and Jafer are not controlled by shadowbinding.

 

There is a close encounter of a third kind, that is neither warg-bound nor shadow-bound.

It is its own, cold power. And it is unique to the Others.

 

I should point out, again, that the Wall does not stop the power wielded by the Others.

But, Leaf's warded cave does.

 

So I again propose that the Wall was built by Brandon, as he slept with and was transformed by Night's Queen. He was the First Stark to wield Ice. And it wasn't just a sword.

 

Leaf's cave is protected by a different power. One that the wights cannot trespass, unlike the Wall.

 

 

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

I watched The Last Witch Hunter (free on Prime) last night. The movie is bad, but the opening sequence seems to have been heavily inspired by A Song of Ice and Fire. A group of men attack a group of magical creatures living under a cave under a giant tree. The sequence is available in youtube and worth watching:

 

 

Yeah, I see what you mean. Cool sequence. Very LH meets Night's Queen.

 

 

[Black Crow]

27 minutes ago, Voice said:

If only you could stop blaming the greenseers.

I see why you think so, but do not agree with the reason. If it would be too obvious for GRRM to say a greenseer helped the Last Hero, then why did he go ahead and write that the cotf helped him? It doesn't make sense.

I'm trying to keep out of this one so will just confine myself to a couple of observations.

I think that for all practical purposes the singers and the greenseers are one and the same. While the greenseers were the "leaders" of their communities I see them more as wise elders guiding and advising their people rather than as leaders in the human sense. We can't therefore talk of the tree-huggers without factoring in their greenseers, but by the same token nor do I see the greenseers as being all powerful and active players with their own agendas. So no, I too think that blaming the greenseers is barking up the wrong tree.

We don't know why there are human greenseers but my feeling remains that they are inducted because the tree-huggers need them for some reason and most likely to give them a window into the world of men.

 

 

[Black Crow]

As for the Warg King's greenseers, its worth going back to read the passage properly:

Chronicles found in the archives of the Nights Watch at the Nightfort (before it was abandoned) speak of the war for Sea Dragon Point, wherein the Starks brought down the War King and his inhuman allies, the children of the forest. When the Warg King's last redoubt fell, his sons were put to the sword, along with his beasts and greenseers, whilst his daughters were taken as prizes by their conquerors.

Those there greenseers are inhuman ones with three fingers, not humans.

[Armstark]

1 hour ago, Voice said:

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

You concur that the Wall blocks the warg bond.

Thus, Othor and Jafer are not controlled by a warg bond.

You concur that the walls of Storm's End blocked Mel's shadowbinding.

Thus, Othor and Jafer are not controlled by shadowbinding.

 

There is a close encounter of a third kind, that is neither warg-bound nor shadow-bound.

It is its own, cold power. And it is unique to the Others.

 

I should point out, again, that the Wall does not stop the power wielded by the Others.

But, Leaf's warded cave does.

 

Leaf's cave is protected by a different power. One that the wights cannot trespass, unlike the Wall.

 

I propose a different solution to this question: The Wall does block the magic that is controlling the wights (cold winds) but it has a flaw: the ignorant Night's Watch cut a tunnel into the ice. Not enough for large scale army-controlling but certainly enough for a small operation near the tunnel like with Jafer and Othor. There is a reason the Black Gate is underground.

[Voice]

57 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'm trying to keep out of this one so will just confine myself to a couple of observations.

I think that for all practical purposes the singers and the greenseers are one and the same. While the greenseers were the "leaders" of their communities I see them more as wise elders guiding and advising their people rather than as leaders in the human sense. We can't therefore talk of the tree-huggers without factoring in their greenseers, but by the same token nor do I see the greenseers as being all powerful and active players with their own agendas. So no, I too think that blaming the greenseers is barking up the wrong tree.

We don't know why there are human greenseers but my feeling remains that they are inducted because the tree-huggers need them for some reason and most likely to give them a window into the world of men.

Actually, I think this tree is the right one upon which to be a-barking, but rather than focus on those who sing sad songs rather than swear bloody vengeance, I think we need to focus on those who swear bloody vengeance.

I speak of course of man. Just normal, everyday, proud men, blind to such mystical subtleties.

The Others reflect and mock their hubris with every wise crack.

On the rest, we certainly agree. 

 

2 minutes ago, Armstark said:

I propose a different solution to this question: The Wall does block the magic that is controlling the wights (cold winds) but it has a flaw: the ignorant Night's Watch cut a tunnel into the ice. Not enough for large scale army-controlling but certainly enough for a small operation near the tunnel like with Jafer and Othor. There is a reason the Black Gate is underground.

Nice. That is a very plausible alternative indeed! I'd love to hear your thoughts on this theory.

The Wall's ice may well be the substantive property that blocks things unseen, and if so, the tunnel is a horrible idea. The tunnel is a horrible idea regardless, of course.

But I do wonder if the enormity and substance of the Wall suggests something else.

Rather than be the size it is today, it was of course faaar smaller in the days of Brandon the Builder. If I am right about Brandon the Builder being the Night's King, then I think it is safe to say that Brandon built the Wall to hide the Black Gate. Who covers a weirwood portal in Ice?

Well, I could tell you who, but folks are probably tired of that song.

I agree there is a reason why the black gate is underground, in a basement, in a well shaft, pressed beneath a very big distraction made of Ice...

...notably, the Wall at the Nightfort bears steps carved into the ice instead of wooden stairs (as are found at Castle Black). The others leave no tracks upon the snow (which is, of course, ice). They slid up those steps on silent feet to watch their hellhounds frolic in the starlight.

Ahh... I'm feeling whimsical.

[Armstark]

40 minutes ago, Voice said:

Nice. That is a very plausible alternative indeed! I'd love to hear your thoughts on this theory.

The Wall's ice may well be the substantive property that blocks things unseen, and if so, the tunnel is a horrible idea. The tunnel is a horrible idea regardless, of course.

But I do wonder if the enormity and substance of the Wall suggests something else.

Rather than be the size it is today, it was of course faaar smaller in the days of Brandon the Builder. If I am right about Brandon the Builder being the Night's King, then I think it is safe to say that Brandon built the Wall to hide the Black Gate. Who covers a weirwood portal in Ice?

Well, I could tell you who, but folks are probably tired of that song.

I agree there is a reason why the black gate is underground, in a basement, in a well shaft, pressed beneath a very big distraction made of Ice...

...notably, the Wall at the Nightfort bears steps carved into the ice instead of wooden stairs (as are found at Castle Black). The others leave no tracks upon the snow (which is, of course, ice). They slid up those steps on silent feet to watch their hellhounds frolic in the starlight.

Ahh... I'm feeling whimsical.

Is the Black Gate really hidden? It seems counterproductive to build this unusual domed "kitchen" above the entrance if you really wanted to hide it. The only other buildings with a dome in Westeros are the CItadel and septs, so the Nightfort's kitchen was one of only two domed buildings in Westeros for millennia and most likely the first ever built in Westeros. Not the kind of building to deflect unwanted attention I think.  

I think there are many much more plausible motivations for BtB to raise the Wall.

 

I like you theory on GQA and her scheming in the North. I agree that her actions were designed to eradicate all magical connections/potentials the Starks or the Night's Watch might have, be it the Black Gate, dIrewolves or first night bastards to sacrifice. But she didn't go all the way however - she left the Starks their Heart Tree. 

 

Edit: It seems like I missed two domed buildings, the tower of the sun in Sunspear and the Dragonvault. The point still stands though.