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Heresy 189


Black Crow

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1 hour ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

What if the Wall is a literal fire extinguisher? Fires approaching from the south trigger the meltdown and drown the flames before they can reach the CotF's last major leafy refuge in the Haunted Forest.

I'm starting to wonder if fire magic was used to hasten the melting of the ice pack behind the Wall.  If all that water created the underground tunnels, rivers systems and sinkholes.

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5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't recall specifically, but that sounds plausible to me.  Could it be that they used iron gates? Is that also an effective ward of a sort.  I think the first men put iron into the graves to keep the dead from rising and the Watch was much more diligent in clearing back the trees back in the day.  Three horn blasts for the Others must have meant something at one time..

I can't remember them saying much about Eastwatch. I just remembered that the Giants got sent there. As for the iron, there are, I think three separate closures to the gate at Castle Black, each mentioned to have iron bars. I have my suspicions that the iron is used as a ward against spirits/wind magic in general. I think the same thing is true with bronze, only it protects from blood magic. Think of the Royce armor or the bronze knife used by MMD on Drogo's horse, etc. 

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15 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I can't remember them saying much about Eastwatch. I just remembered that the Giants got sent there. As for the iron, there are, I think three separate closures to the gate at Castle Black, each mentioned to have iron bars. I have my suspicions that the iron is used as a ward against spirits/wind magic in general. I think the same thing is true with bronze, only it protects from blood magic. Think of the Royce armor or the bronze knife used by MMD on Drogo's horse, etc. 

It all the Castles had such a gate with at least one large enough for mammoth's and giants; it would help to explain how the land north of the Wall was repopulated.  There must have been a sizeable work force at one time.    

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11 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, I agree with Redriver but I can't remember if he explained how the Wall held back the cold.  I think the Wall does more than hold back the cold; I think it specifically draws the killing cold to itself and contains it in the ice itself.   The killing cold is the agent that puts out campfires and raises the dead.  It doesn't seem logical to me that it can be defeated with fire magic but only with ice magic itself.  How does the Wall contain an air mass?  Why doesn't it just go around or over?   I'll crib from some of my notes:

The Wall has the characteristics of a man made "fire" break in that the NW keep the trees cut down and provide for it's maintenance. Ostensibly, to keep the wildlings from getting across, which it fails to do, because it wasn't the wall's original purpose.
 

Oh quite splendid. I don't entirely agree, but would you mind if I re-used it as one of the bicentennial essays?

Please, pretty please...

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11 hours ago, Armstark said:

Not sure if serious but I wasn't really asking about your oroboros dragon but more about the Targaryen kind of dragon ;)

 

I liked your write up though and agree with much of it. The 'killing cold' as you call it will not be released though when the Wall falls because it's turned into ice now and is no longer a cold wind. Doesn't really matter anyway though because there will be a fresh icy wind blowing from the North.

I still rather see the fall of the Wall not as a mighty crash and a bang but swirling away in a cloud of ice crystals - as Ser Puddles flesh and blood did

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

It all the Castles had such a gate with at least one large enough for mammoth's and giants; it would help to explain how the land north of the Wall was repopulated.  There must have been a sizeable work force at one time.    

I don't think it was, while it has been pointed out before that the Wall has some of the characteristics of a glacier, that's not the same thing as an ice cap. People survived, and not just the Thenns, to become Wildlings or Free Folk, and their refusal to acknowledge kings stems from their betrayal by their original kings; dead, fled or become white walkers; the wild hunt.

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

People survived, and not just the Thenns, to become Wildlings or Free Folk, and their refusal to acknowledge kings stems from their betrayal by their original kings; dead, fled or become white walkers; the wild hunt.

Just wanted to say, I like that you brought up the Wild Hunt here. (Thinking of Perchta/Berchta and Holda, things they represent, etc)

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28 minutes ago, Queen of Winter said:

Just wanted to say, I like that you brought up the Wild Hunt here. (Thinking of Perchta/Berchta and Holda, things they represent, etc)

Interesting stuff and possibly of some relevance as another variant of the Morrigan who has so exercised we miserable heretics in the past. 

I do have to say though that I was thinking more in terms of Herne the Hunter and the Wild Hunt, both in terms of their damnation and the Nazgul which Tolkein derived from them and more immediately in Old Nan's tale of their hunting young maidens through the woods.

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4 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Interesting stuff and possibly of some relevance as another variant of the Morrigan who has so exercised we miserable heretics in the past. 

I do have to say though that I was thinking more in terms of Herne the Hunter and the Wild Hunt, both in terms of their damnation and the Nazgul which Tolkein derived from them and more immediately in Old Nan's tale of their hunting young maidens through the woods.

Yes, I can see Herne the Hunter as well. And I like the parallel you drew with the Nazgul...:thumbsup:

As for Perchta/Berchta/Holda and what I was talking about, (have to gather my thoughts later..running out the door shortly), but I think one of them was said to possibly be a skinchanger and related to the winter season...

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11 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, it's possible unless those entrances have been warded by the CotF like the entrance to Bloodraven's cave.  They've been in the caves for a long time.  I'm inclined to think that the gate at Castle Black is the breach; the crack in the wall that Dany sees in her vision; the blue flower growing from it and Ned's dream of a storm of rose petals, blue as the eyes of death foreshadowing the wars to come.  Unless Bran or Sam can seal the breach; the wights can get through.

Armstark's comment that once the cold wind is trapped in the wall; it's becomes inert also makes sense.  Unless the magic that traps the cold wind is still active.  And I question that now; since Dany burned down the House of the Undying and the beating blue heart within it.  She may have destroyed that magic or that part of the hinge.   Yes, I think all hell is about to break loose.

Added:  The more I think about, the more convinced I become that Dany did destroy the Great Lore that raised the Wall.  The Black Gate still works tied to weirwood magic and perhaps a gate at Winterfell of the same type.  But it's redundant at the Wall and the gate at Castle Black is irrelevant.  There's nothing to stop the wights from swarming over the Wall just as Jon sees them in his beserker dream.

      

I have a lot of catching up to do on this thread. Need to finish page 11, but I wanted to comment how much I like your explanations regarding the Wall. Very interesting stuff and it makes sense, especially the ouroboros or dragon eating it's own tail which I believe is a theme in this series. The description of the dragon eating it's own tail in an endless circle also caused me to think of it going inside out for a cycle before returning to right side out. Because there are so many inversions I think this inside out reversal is a better way to explain how everything has gotten so inverted. If the dragon is inside out, then the Wall isn't drawing upon itself any longer, it may be expelling the cold.

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53 minutes ago, Queen of Winter said:

Yes, I can see Herne the Hunter as well. And I like the parallel you drew with the Nazgul...:thumbsup:

As for Perchta/Berchta/Holda and what I was talking about, (have to gather my thoughts later..running out the door shortly), but I think one of them was said to possibly be a skinchanger and related to the winter season...

Yes I checked the Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchta and it refers to that in there, and some other interesting stuff as well which could be relevant. While I'm a little wary of a direct connection it sounds a lot like a South German derivative of some of the Celtic stuff we know GRRM has been using.

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3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Oh quite splendid. I don't entirely agree, but would you mind if I re-used it as one of the bicentennial essays?

Please, pretty please...

Oh my goodness Black Crow!  By all means, fill your boot!  Thank you.  

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3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I still rather see the fall of the Wall not as a mighty crash and a bang but swirling away in a cloud of ice crystals - as Ser Puddles flesh and blood did

The Mirri Maz Duur quote! 

- when the sun rises in the West and sets in the East, (when time runs backwards)

- when the seas dry up (when the Narrow Sea is absorbed into an ice pack)

- when mountains blow in the wind like leaves (when the horn of Joramun blows and the Wall swirls away in a cloud of ice crystals)

I like it!!

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

The Mirri Maz Duur quote! 

- when the sun rises in the West and sets in the East, (when time runs backwards)

- when the seas dry up (when the Narrow Sea is absorbed into an ice pack)

- when mountains blow in the wind like leaves (when the horn of Joramun blows and the Wall swirls away in a cloud of ice crystals)

I like it!!

:bowdown:

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14 hours ago, LynnS said:

but I do think conditions have been reset to to the events of the first long night. 

Yes. A reset of sorts, but in reverse.

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

His sigil containing the red eye doesn't represent Bloodraven, but Euron since he will be called Bloodeye, revealed  in Aeron WoW chapter, I think.  The crows carrying the iron crow would suggest the Cotf but I suspect a schism of some kind. 

Euron is the inversion of Bloodraven, and I was wondering about the iron crow. Could it be symbolic of breaking an iron ward?

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

The House of Black and White is suggestive of that original alliance with it's deference to in particular R'hllor and the God of Many Faces.  They seem to tie things together with Arya's crooked stitching and needle motif.  Something that shows up at the Wall with the switchback stairs, like a lightning bolt connecting the Sword and the Serpent hinges of the Wall.  And also at the House of Black and White; with the ensorceled black and white doors  Dany passes through before meeting a splendor of wizards.  I have no idea how that part will play out with Arya.

R'hllor is listed as one of the gods the House of Black and White includes in the Many Faced God. Perhaps the stitching represents what the HoBaW has done by grouping them all together?

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is one of the visions that Dany sees in the House of the Undying way back Clash of Kings where she meet Pyat Pree.

A blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice, filling the air with sweetness.  

Most people think this refers to Jon Snow but given that the Wall has been breached at Castle Black as Armstark points out,  I think the chink in the Wall is the gate at Castle Black considering the size of the Wall. Also  Ned has a fever dream where he sees a storm of rose petals; blue as the eyes of death.  To me this represents the coming storm of ice wights and ties in with the blue flower.  So far the chink is only a chink in the wall.  But as Dany progresses through the HoU; she eventually ends up in the room with the beating blue heart.  She almost succumbs to the undying until Drogon burns the heart and she makes her escape.

I've always wondered what the heart represented but I think it is the magic at the Wall, that Mel calls the Great Lore.  Not the Black Gate that came later but the lore, as I speculate that absorbs and contains the killing cold.  The wall removes the stuff that animates the wights and it's reason they can't simply climb the Wall. That is until the NW drilled at hole in the Wall.  But if the beating blue heart is destroyed and it represents the heart of the Wall, there is no containment any longer.  So it's a bit ironic; that the gate at Castle Black is more or less irrelevant.  That Wall fell when Drogon burned the Blue Heart and the HoU went down in flames.       

I like this explanation, and agree that blue is symbolic of death. 

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think the wall was the advance edge of a glacier made of the killing cold and the magic that raises wights contained in the cold.  The results of the night that lasted a generation when snow fell hundreds of feet high according to old Nan.  How do you stop such a thing.  You have to use it's own magic against it.  Fighting ice with ice.  It has to consume it's own tail; all the ice behind it.  It becomes a Dam. You take away the weapon of mass destruction and force a retreat.  Ice preserves the body but it consumes life.  Death feeds off the life force; plant and animal.

So the wall wasn't actually raised in a physical sense.  The Cotf; greenseers, Bran the Builder; whoever is responsible for the magic it contains used the Glacier as it existed to create the Wall as we know it.  They had to apply the Great Lore to the entire leading edge.  So it probably was a lot smaller than 800 feet initially.  When the Ice Dam was created that was the end of the Long Night until now. At some point the Wildlings started burning their dead instead of burying with iron.  They know about the killing cold and that the dead can be raised and they are not providing the materials.

It's been 200 years since the Wall has been breached at Castle Black and nothing.  Until Dany and Jon came along, not to mention Bran who's been expected for 200 years according to Leaf.

To paraphrase Euron: the long night was the first storm and now Planetos is faced with the last storm.  Winner take all.

 

Your explanation as to how the Wall was built is fantastic, but if it's destined to disintegrate into a swirl of snow, then something has happened to reverse the magic that went into it's building. That is why I think the ouroboros is inside out. The Wall is expelling or exhaling as evidenced by the blizzard in the north and why it seems to be emanating out of Winterfell. Many suspect that the Winterfell crypts lead to tunnels underground and maybe the iron gate below has been opened?

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On 27/07/2016 at 4:43 AM, wolfmaid7 said:
IMO i think it has to do with the "human" shell affording some kind of protection and cloak.Mel and the wights were human on the outside,though they had each payloads to deliver.But to me what's inside them the incorpeal and disembodied entity can't pass.

I certainly agree with this. But then we have cold hands and wights who seem to be unable to move beneath the wall which makes it all seem inconsistent.
On 27/07/2016 at 3:47 PM, Feather Crystal said:
Melisandre needed Davos to bring her under the castle, which implies she and her shadowbaby could not pass unless brought through like Othor and Jafer were brought through the Wall.

I thought of this too, but the similarity between Davos and NW is not obvious. The wights are unconscious when they are brought beneath the wall, but Mel is active in the whole process.
And when we get to THE wall, she just moves beneath it freely.

On 27/07/2016 at 5:24 PM, LynnS said:

ets tired although she avoids sleeping.

this is so interesting to me. Do you think she avoids sleep because BR could infiltrate her dream?

23 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

.What it does have a gripe with as with the Wall is those beings that fall under the shaow category or to be more specific those that have no physical body.

So iam 100% in agreement and have been saying this for a long while now the Wall keeps out the disembodied froms greenseers/skinchangers or anything that seeks to enter without a body.

I am in complete agreement with this if it wasn't for BRan's coma dream. He did NOT have a body when he traveled to LOAW and back. So, the wall cannot stop that.

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7 minutes ago, shizett said:

 

On 27/07/2016 at 4:43 AM, wolfmaid7 said:
IMO i think it has to do with the "human" shell affording some kind of protection and cloak.Mel and the wights were human on the outside,though they had each payloads to deliver.But to me what's inside them the incorpeal and disembodied entity can't pass.

I certainly agree with this. But then we have cold hands and wights who seem to be unable to move beneath the wall which makes it all seem inconsistent.
On 27/07/2016 at 3:47 PM, Feather Crystal said:
Melisandre needed Davos to bring her under the castle, which implies she and her shadowbaby could not pass unless brought through like Othor and Jafer were brought through the Wall.

I thought of this too, but the similarity between Davos and NW is not obvious. The wights are unconscious when they are brought beneath the wall, but Mel is active in the whole process.
And when we get to THE wall, she just moves beneath it freely.

 

Mel has guest right at the Wall, so she may be able to move about freely.

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15 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is one of the visions that Dany sees in the House of the Undying way back Clash of Kings where she meet Pyat Pree.

A blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice, filling the air with sweetness.  

Most people think this refers to Jon Snow but given that the Wall has been breached at Castle Black as Armstark points out,  I think the chink in the Wall is the gate at Castle Black considering the size of the Wall. Also  Ned has a fever dream where he sees a storm of rose petals; blue as the eyes of death.  To me this represents the coming storm of ice wights and ties in with the blue flower.  So far the chink is only a chink in the wall.  But as Dany progresses through the HoU; she eventually ends up in the room with the beating blue heart.  She almost succumbs to the undying until Drogon burns the heart and she makes her escape.

I've always wondered what the heart represented but I think it is the magic at the Wall, that Mel calls the Great Lore.  Not the Black Gate that came later but the lore, as I speculate that absorbs and contains the killing cold.  The wall removes the stuff that animates the wights and it's reason they can't simply climb the Wall. That is until the NW drilled at hole in the Wall.  But if the beating blue heart is destroyed and it represents the heart of the Wall, there is no containment any longer.  So it's a bit ironic; that the gate at Castle Black is more or less irrelevant.  That Wall fell when Drogon burned the Blue Heart and the HoU went down in flames.  

This is so interesting and a much better interpretation of the vision. Jon never made sense to me.

But didn't Bran and Co's encaounter with Coldhands happen after Dany's destruction of HotU? Coldhands says he cannot pass through the wall.

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14 hours ago, LynnS said:

How do you stop such a thing.  You have to use it's own magic against it.  Fighting ice with ice.  It has to consume it's own tail; all the ice behind it.

I thought that is what Stark crypts are fore: fighting the dead with the dead.

 

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