Heresy 189

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Regarding the 'seas drying up', this has happened before in geological time when so-called 'land bridges' were created (in an ice age, water becomes locked up in ice, leaving some areas relatively in drought), which many theorize facilitated human migration across land masses that were previously separated. It's interesting to think that 'when the seas dry up,' and humanity is in extremis, paradoxically people are brought together, geographically speaking at least: bridges replace walls..!

Welcome to Heresy and thank you for a very interesting post. As to land bridges I refer to the answer I just gave to LynnS, otherwise I have to enter the caveat that GRRM has said in the past that the dodgy seasons have a magical cause rather than a scientific one. I forget the exact words he has used, but essentially as I pointed out above, things happen because GRRM needs them to - and notwithstanding the real world parallel that may apply to the Breaking of the Arm as well.

In general, however, I remain wary of theories of overarching events influenced or even orchestrated by greenseers or anybody else. This will not end when with one bound Jack was free. Its a story about people and how they interact with each other [usually badly] and respond to the world around them, rather than about that world. 

[LynnS]

12 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Given the physical limitations of the wights we see in the books I rather doubt they could swim and would most likely be simply tossed about and scattered by the waves. I also have my doubts about them coming any distance by land with or without the complication of the Wall. The North, we're frequently told is a vast area and far from populous. While I'm confident that the Wild Hunt will cross the Wall by one means or another I'd expect them to raise an army of the slain as and when required rather than restrict themselves to the snail-like pace of the shuffling dead.

That's a relief.  For a while there, I didn't think Ramsey Snow would have enough time to get to the Night Fort and act out his favorite Night King Stories.  LOL.

12 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Don't have my copy of ADwD to hand but my recollection is that she looks forward to when she will no longer need to sleep, but doesn't cite a trigger for this, so it may simply be a matter of her transformation not yet being complete, ie the final loss of humanity as she becomes fire made flesh.

That makes a lot of sense to me. .....And it's a bit unnerving, considering Mel's private thought that she feels her power growing and can't wait to make shadowbabies the likes of which the world has never seen.  Yikes.

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I agree, as this is exactly the cause of the breaching of the Weald-Artois Anticline which I've cited before as the model for the breaking of the Arm.

Yes, I was thinking about the Missoula glacier lake outbursts but Weald-Artois Anticline makes the case for the Arm of Dorne.

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I assumed Iron born, iron price, iron islands, went back to first men raiding Andals.  First men worked bronze, but iron was superior.  If you wanted iron, you'd have to raid to steal it.

Yes, the Ironborn are all of these things. They have taken their "poison" so to speak and used it to make themselves stronger with it. But I was trying to get to an origin story, because we know the Ironborn existed before the Andals who brought iron swords to Westeros. Iron is analogous to a ward, and has always been an metal underground. The Andals didn't bring the substance to Westeros, they brought the technology to work it into iron swords. Prior to their arrival It was already known as a substance used in wards. 

 

[theyoungwolf13]

17 hours ago, LynnS said:

But I also suspect that her dreams can be invaded by the Ancient Enemy.  The same with Tyrion who avoids sleeping unless he can drink himself to oblivion and Bran who Maester Luwin gives sleeping draughts because the whole castle can hear him screaming in his sleep. 

 

While yours is an interesting theory concerning Melisandre, I don't think it can be extrapolated for Tyrion or Bran. Tyrion has always had trouble sleeping, even when he was small. And if I recall properly Bran used to scream in his dreams when he was having the nightmares and the three-eyed crow used to appear in them. There are no other instances which I recall where Bran had trouble sleeping. Because of these reasons I don't think the theory works out for Tyrion and Bran. Otherwise I enjoyed reading your post. 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, theyoungwolf13 said:

While yours is an interesting theory concerning Melisandre, I don't think it can be extrapolated for Tyrion or Bran. Tyrion has always had trouble sleeping, even when he was small. And if I recall properly Bran used to scream in his dreams when he was having the nightmares and the three-eyed crow used to appear in them. There are no other instances which I recall where Bran had trouble sleeping. Because of these reasons I don't think the theory works out for Tyrion and Bran. Otherwise I enjoyed reading your post. 

Whilst I'm wary of blaming the "ancient enemy" I think the point is that a number of key characters are having their dreams intruded upon by someone - just not always the same someone.

[LynnS]

51 minutes ago, theyoungwolf13 said:

While yours is an interesting theory concerning Melisandre, I don't think it can be extrapolated for Tyrion or Bran. Tyrion has always had trouble sleeping, even when he was small. And if I recall properly Bran used to scream in his dreams when he was having the nightmares and the three-eyed crow used to appear in them. There are no other instances which I recall where Bran had trouble sleeping. Because of these reasons I don't think the theory works out for Tyrion and Bran. Otherwise I enjoyed reading your post. 

Why thank you YoungWolf.  I'm equally interested in hearing other peoples ideas and thoughts about the books!  I don't really have a theory about the Ancient One invading people's dreams but I think it's a possibility.  A kind of mind warfare, if you will, and it might go a ways to explain why the Red Lot also avoids sleep having encountered the Enemy once before.  Bran could be screaming in his sleep for any reason.  We haven't really seen his dreams unless you count the coma dream where he sees the heart of darkness and is terrified.  Tyrion on the other hand either avoids sleep or drinks himself into oblivion.  He alters his state of consciousness either so he won't dream or doesn't remember his dreams.  When his finally sobers up on his trip with Jon Connington; he has that horrible monstrous two-headed dream; where one head is maniacally slaughtering everything before him while the other head weeps.  

I tend to notice repetitions of three since Martin said at one point that he does it deliberately.  I think sometimes these 'keys' are seemingly separate and disparate things that don't seem connected but have a similar quality.   If you will indulge me; I will explain what I mean about keys using the WierBran/Jon episode and the Mirri Maaz Duur prophecy mentioned upthread as an example.

The wierBran, Ghost-Jon encounter is significant because it is now book cannon that Bran is unbound by time even though we have not yet seen the transforming event.  At some point Bran will transform into the 3EC; he will no longer be the Winged Wolf chained to the earth as Jojen describes him.  This means that Bran can show up at any time in the past or future.  Martin provided the 'visual' key of the tree sprouting from the ground and growing before Jon's eyes.  This is a representation of time moving quickly forward from Jon's perspective.

This in turn unlocks the meaning of the first line of MMD's prophecy:  When the sun rises in the west and set in the east.  In other words, what does that look like?  Does it then follow that the next line is related to the first and what would it look like to see the seas dry up through that lens.  Since MMD seems to be implying that Dany will have this vision; what would it look like to her?

I think we've been provided with another key relating to Bran's coma vision when he views the entire world laid out before him.  He sees the world from far  above the earth not from the perspective of the crow or even an Eagle.  This is the moon's eye view or god's eye view.  If we continue pulling on that thread; it tells us something about the moon like an eye in the sky.  The HBO mummer's show does a good job of showing the viewer what that is like using the astrolabe in the opening surveying the world and zooming in and out for a closer view. So is it possible that Dany will see the world below her zooming back through time to the wall and how it was created. 

If the first first two line are about the Wall... what about the third?  When mountains blow in the wind like leaves.  My first reaction to that was is this about volcanos? The mountain that rides who is a larger than life character, a giant in other words.  Until I came across the passage when Jon is surveying the inventory in the wormways under the Wall and thinks of the wall as a mountain of ice over his head.  So the Wall can be considered a mountain but I didn't put the rest of it together until Black Crow said he thought the wall would end in the same manner as Ser Puddles; going up in a cloud of ice crystals.

So it is always worthwhile to go back and visit the onion; to peel off another layer with fresh eyes.  I have a few more examples of where there may have been a Bran time incursion in the story and what keys might look like.  But what do you think so far? 

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think we've been provided with another key relating to Bran's coma vision when he views the entire world laid out before him.  He sees the world from far  above the earth not from the perspective of the crow or even an Eagle.  This is the moon's eye view or god's eye view.  If we continue pulling on that thread; it tells us something about the moon like an eye in the sky.  The HBO mummer's show does a good job of showing the viewer what that is like using the astrolabe in the opening surveying the world and zooming in and out for a closer view. So is it possible that Dany will see the world below her zooming back through time to the wall and how it was created. 

I'm glad you've brought up the astrolabe, because I've discussed before how this is the eye of the greenseer, both Bran and Bloodraven before him. The astrolabe also has bands surrounding the eye in the center with the major houses inscribed upon it, and I think this represents the wheel of time/ouroboros turning.

[LynnS]

31 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'm glad you've brought up the astrolabe, because I've discussed before how this is the eye of the greenseer, both Bran and Bloodraven before him. The astrolabe also has bands surrounding the eye in the center with the major houses inscribed upon it, and I think this represents the wheel of time/ouroboros turning

Hi Feather Crystal!  Wow!  Sorry I haven't responded sooner.  When I get pulling on a thread, I can't stop myself.  LOL.  To answer your earlier question about the Wall exhaling... I think that's an interesting description.  We have been shown that the wall has a 'heart' in the House of the Undying and drawing the killing cold and trapping it could be considered inhaling.  So if the heart is stopped, does the wall exhale the cold?  I think that's possible.  Although, I'm inclined to agree with Black Crow that the Ancient Enemy has not yet played the undead card.  But this opens up another curious question: if the back door to the beating blue heart was located in Qarth at the crossroads of the world; is the burning heart of R'hllor located somewhere in Westeros? 

I think the wheel of time has come full circle and we are back to the original conditions of the first long night.  The ancient enemy has opened the war on two fronts: fire with Dany vs Euron and ice with Jon vs Ramsey.  Bran is the wild card.  His agents against the agents of the enemy and the ultimate reckoning.  

[Melifeather]

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think the wheel of time has come full circle and we are back to the original conditions of the first long night.  The ancient enemy has opened the war on two fronts: fire with Dany vs Euron and ice with Jon vs Ramsey.  Bran is the wild card.  His agents against the agents of the enemy and the ultimate reckoning.

Yes, I agree it's on the cusp of the time of the Long Night with the Night's King versus the Lord of Winterfell showdown, except this time both men are bastards. They may be "brothers" by last name only (Snow), but I think we can expect a reversal of fortune and the Night's King will defeat the Lord of Winterfell.

Bran is destined to be Bran the Builder's inversion overseeing the dismantling of the Wall and every other thing he was credited with building.

[LynnS]

27 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yes, I agree it's on the cusp of the time of the Long Night with the Night's King versus the Lord of Winterfell showdown, except this time both men are bastards. They may be "brothers" by last name only (Snow), but I think we can expect a reversal of fortune and the Night's King will defeat the Lord of Winterfell.

Bran is destined to be Bran the Builder's inversion overseeing the dismantling of the Wall and every other thing he was credited with building.

Jon is not yet the Lord of Winterfell.  He may in time take up the role of King in the North or King beyond the Wall; but Ramsey took Winterfell from Theon to become Lord of Winterfell..

[Melifeather]

28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Jon is not yet the Lord of Winterfell.  He may in time take up the role of King in the North or King beyond the Wall; but Ramsey took Winterfell from Theon to become Lord of Winterfell..

Right. I didn't mean to imply that Jon was the Lord. Jon is the Lord Commander so he is the Night's King. Ramsay is the Lord of Winterfell.

On another thread @Seams brought to my attention Sansa's building of the snow-castle version of Winterfell, which caused me to wonder if she's the inversion of the King in the North? After Bran the Unbuilder oversees the dismantling of the Wall, Winterfell, and Storm's End, Sansa could be Queen in the North.

[Dornish Neck Tie]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yes, the Ironborn are all of these things. They have taken their "poison" so to speak and used it to make themselves stronger with it. But I was trying to get to an origin story, because we know the Ironborn existed before the Andals who brought iron swords to Westeros. Iron is analogous to a ward, and has always been an metal underground. The Andals didn't bring the substance to Westeros, they brought the technology to work it into iron swords. Prior to their arrival It was already known as a substance used in wards. 

 

A couple of threads ago, I think, I speculated that maybe they call themselves the Iron Born because they discovered how to use iron to break free from subjugation at the hands of greenseers, and so they were "born" as an independent people.

[theyoungwolf13]

20 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Right. I didn't mean to imply that Jon was the Lord. Jon is the Lord Commander so he is the Night's King. Ramsay is the Lord of Winterfell.

 

Not sure that the Lord Commander is the Night's King.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

The wierBran, Ghost-Jon encounter is significant because it is now book cannon that Bran is unbound by time even though we have not yet seen the transforming event.  At some point Bran will transform into the 3EC; he will no longer be the Winged Wolf chained to the earth as Jojen describes him.  This means that Bran can show up at any time in the past or future.  Martin provided the 'visual' key of the tree sprouting from the ground and growing before Jon's eyes.  This is a representation of time moving quickly forward from Jon's perspective.

I agree that there is concrete proof that Bran is the 3EC and the instances of his disturbances in the time continuum are probable. Having said this leads me to wonder what must have been the situation in the future for Bran to try and communicate with Jon through a weirwood. 

51 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Jon is not yet the Lord of Winterfell.  He may in time take up the role of King in the North or King beyond the Wall; but Ramsey took Winterfell from Theon to become Lord of Winterfell..

I feel that while Jon may not take any titles himself he will have the North behind him against the WW, because we must remember that the only people who know and are in position to take any action against the WW are the Night's Watch and Stannis Baratheon (Melisandre). [Though I believe Bowen Marsh and others like him are dismissive and believe the wildlings to be the main threat]

[Tucu]

18 minutes ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

A couple of threads ago, I think, I speculated that maybe they call themselves the Iron Born because they discovered how to use iron to break free from subjugation at the hands of greenseers, and so they were "born" as an independent people.

The Ironborn were probably never under the subjucation of greenseers. There were no weirwoods in the Iron Islands. Before the Andals intermixed they were probably the tribe closest to the original First Men.

[Dornish Neck Tie]

8 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The Ironborn were probably never under the subjucation of greenseers. There were no weirwoods in the Iron Islands. Before the Andals intermixed they were probably the tribe closest to the original First Men.

We can't really say with any certainty whether the Iron Islands once had weirwoods, though I suspect Nagga's ribs may be petrified remains of a weirwood grove. We can, however, say with certainty that whoever the Iron Born are, they did not originate on the Islands themselves.

Although the Islands are rich in iron, I do not believe the proud men who gave themselves the name Iron Born would have chosen a name in honor of their mining activity, due to the fact that they predate the large-scale working of iron in Westeros. Not to mention the way in which they so look down on those who are forced to toil away on land; the mining of iron is almost certainly no point of pride in Iron Born culture.

[Melifeather]

17 minutes ago, theyoungwolf13 said:

Not sure that the Lord Commander is the Night's King.

The story of the Night's King is that he was the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Jon is the 998th Lord Commander and stabbed at the end of ADWD. Is he dead or undead?

[theyoungwolf13]

6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The story of the Night's King is that he was the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Jon is the 998th Lord Commander and stabbed at the end of ADWD. Is he dead or undead?

Just because the Night's King was a Lord Commander doesn't mean that every Lord Commander is the Night's King. As for Jon I believe he is dead.

[Melifeather]

8 minutes ago, theyoungwolf13 said:

Just because the Night's King was a Lord Commander doesn't mean that every Lord Commander is the Night's King. As for Jon I believe he is dead.

I wasn't stating that they were. What I was stating is that I believe Jon Snow is the inversion of the Night's King. This was never meant as a blanket statement that all LC's are Night's Kings. It was more of a response to LynnS's that she was expecting Jon to be either Lord of Winterfell or King in the North, and I don't think he'll be either.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, theyoungwolf13 said:

I agree that there is concrete proof that Bran is the 3EC and the instances of his disturbances in the time continuum are probable. Having said this leads me to wonder what must have been the situation in the future for Bran to try and communicate with Jon through a weirwood.

What actually happens is that Jon is immediately taken on a tour of the North from a 3EC perspective.  He sees the wildling population encamped and activity around a glacier.  He's had his 3rd eye opened by weirBran something that may be important or necessary for Jon or Bran in Jon's future .  So this is not a future vision; but Bran providing intel to Jon before his party ambushes Ygritte and party at the top of the cliff.  It's also when he learns from the Halfhand that he is a warg.  

Here is a quote from Bloodraven:

In time, Bran will be able to see beyond the trees. And that past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood.

When Jon sees Bran in the form of a wierwood; where one did not previously exist and grows before his eye; this is Bran as Bloodraven describes him above.  Unbound by time and unchained from any godswood tree.  And conversely, Jon sees Bran while he himself is warging Ghost in his sleep; so Bran sees him as Ghost.  

This would be like Melisandre seeing Bloodraven and Bran as tree with an old man's face, and the boy with the wolf's head. She doesn't know who they are but Bran and Jon know each other.

They also recollect their encounter with each other in a slightly different way.  Jon recalls that he saw Bran and then Bran touched him.  But Bran recalls it in reverse order; he touched Ghost and then talked to Jon.  A very subtle clue that Bran is moving back through time.

 

[Tatsuwa]

24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I wasn't stating that they were. What I was stating is that I believe Jon Snow is the inversion of the Night's King. This was never meant as a blanket statement that all LC's are Night's Kings. It was more of a response to LynnS's that she was expecting Jon to be either Lord of Winterfell or King in the North, and I don't think he'll be either.

Nope lol Jon missed his chance for Night's King when Val was dressed all in white.