Heresy 189

[Tatsuwa]

37 minutes ago, theyoungwolf13 said:

Just because the Night's King was a Lord Commander doesn't mean that every Lord Commander is the Night's King. As for Jon I believe he is dead.

Grrm quote "So you think he's dead do ya.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

The Ironborn were probably never under the subjucation of greenseers. There were no weirwoods in the Iron Islands. Before the Andals intermixed they were probably the tribe closest to the original First Men.

We are told that some but not all of the First Men set aside their original gods and came to worship the Old Gods after the Pact. Significantly one of the other groups who appear to have remained free are the Sistermen, who seem to hold by the Storm God and the Lady of the Waves. There is an interesting wrinkle here too in that the sigil of House Morrigen is a crow volant on a storm green sky, and that Damphair distrusts the crows as servants of the Storm God, but here we're getting back into the Morrigan business...

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

We can't really say with any certainty whether the Iron Islands once had weirwoods, though I suspect Nagga's ribs may be petrified remains of a weirwood grove. We can, however, say with certainty that whoever the Iron Born are, they did not originate on the Islands themselves.

Although the Islands are rich in iron, I do not believe the proud men who gave themselves the name Iron Born would have chosen a name in honor of their mining activity, due to the fact that they predate the large-scale working of iron in Westeros. Not to mention the way in which they so look down on those who are forced to toil away on land; the mining of iron is almost certainly no point of pride in Iron Born culture.

The world book says that there is no evidence that the CoTF inhabited the Iron Islands. The weirwoods have not been included in their religion as either good or evil and it seems that they have only a minor legend that mentions weirwoods.

If their name was related to a struggle with the weirwoods/Old Gods/CoTF, I would expect these enemies to make a bigger appearance in their religion and lore.

[Black Crow]

26 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The world book says that there is no evidence that the CoTF inhabited the Iron Islands. The weirwoods have not been included in their religion as either good or evil and it seems that they have only a minor legend that mentions weirwoods.

If their name was related to a struggle with the weirwoods/Old Gods/CoTF, I would expect these enemies to make a bigger appearance in their religion and lore.

My impression is that they tooled up to the islands to find the Seastone Chair on the shore and Nagga's bones on the hill, ie; if the bones are ancient weirwoods they were killed off long before the Ironborn arrived.

[Melifeather]

Night’s King was the 13th Lord Commander

Jon Snow is the 998th Lord Commander

 

Night’s King saw female Other from atop the Wall. Took her to wife, and gave her his seed.

Jon Snow met Ygritte north of the Wall. Gave her his seed, but did not take her to wife.

 

Night’s King’s wife was pale.

Ygritte’s hair is fiery red.

 

Night’s King bound the watch to his will through sorcery.

Jon Snow had difficulty getting the older members of the Watch to agree to his decisions.

 

Night’s King was found guilty of sacrificing to the Others.

Jon Snow helped the wildlings through the Wall to escape the Others, causing a mutiny, which lead to his own “sacrifice”.

 

Night’s King was taken down by his brother-Lord of Winterfell, and Joramun-King Beyond the Wall.

Jon Snow’s men may or may not have brought him down, but he’s destined to face Ramsay Bolton-Lord of Winterfell and Mance Raydar-King Beyond the Wall. Mance might be on the LC’s side this time.

[Brad Stark]

I've suspected we will see the NK story play out again.  Yigrette will be back, but not alive and human.  Jon will come back from the dead and be changed, eventually becoming the real threat.  The living Starks will have to defeat him.

I have to reread the part where Bran visits Jon, I didn't pick up on it being from the future.  Probably something very significant happened that Bran wanted to tell him to do different, maybe meeting Yigrette.

[PrettyPig]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

If the first first two line are about the Wall... what about the third?  When mountains blow in the wind like leaves.  My first reaction to that was is this about volcanos? The mountain that rides who is a larger than life character, a giant in other words.  Until I came across the passage when Jon is surveying the inventory in the wormways under the Wall and thinks of the wall as a mountain of ice over his head.  So the Wall can be considered a mountain but I didn't put the rest of it together until Black Crow said he thought the wall would end in the same manner as Ser Puddles; going up in a cloud of ice crystals.

Subglacial volcanoes!   (I just posted something along these lines at the other place that you may find interesting.)      In short, I think we may be looking at a Planetos "ring of fire" - a concept that also ties in with the ouroboros motif and the world devouring/recreating itself.

[LynnS]

34 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Subglacial volcanoes!   (I just posted something along these lines at the other place that you may find interesting.)      In short, I think we may be looking at a Planetos "ring of fire" - a concept that also ties in with the ouroboros motif and the world devouring/recreating itself

Something tells me that these events occured during Long Night V1.0 to do with the Doom of Valyria.  It will take some thought.

[Brad Stark]

7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Something tells me that these events occured during Long Night V1.0 to do with the Doom of Valyria.  It will take some thought.

I suspect the Long Night was created by abusing ice magic and the doom was a later disaster from abusing fire.  So similar, but not related.

[Yield.]

 

42 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Subglacial volcanoes!   (I just posted something along these lines at the other place that you may find interesting.)      In short, I think we may be looking at a Planetos "ring of fire" - a concept that also ties in with the ouroboros motif and the world devouring/recreating itself.

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Something tells me that these events occured during Long Night V1.0 to do with the Doom of Valyria.  It will take some thought.

Actually it just occurred to me that since these events are millennia apart, perhaps the Long Night v1.0 is what caused the making of Valyria. If there is a balance to Planetos, or indeed there was at one point, then the Ice expenditure might've made or caused it's own opposite. Valyria is the home of Fire, and the Long Night ended with the creation of the home of Ice. Just because folks didn't discover the power of Fire in Valyria for thousands of years doesn't mean it was not there. Both powers contained within their respective homes. Then both were invaded by humans -- Wildlings and the Masters.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I've suspected we will see the NK story play out again.  Yigrette will be back, but not alive and human.  Jon will come back from the dead and be changed, eventually becoming the real threat.  The living Starks will have to defeat him.

I have to reread the part where Bran visits Jon, I didn't pick up on it being from the future.  Probably something very significant happened that Bran wanted to tell him to do different, maybe meeting Yigrette.

Ygritte was cremated precisely in order to stop her coming back

[Voice]

On 7/25/2016 at 2:43 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

The Others are always capitalised in the books, is there a reason for this? neither the children nor the northmen are capitalised and the wildlings only sometimes.

Btw, the dear Ralph letter has ' the inhuman others', no capital.

Apparently, when writing the novel, GRRM and/or his editor realized the term should be capitalized.

 

On 7/25/2016 at 3:02 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

true, but - apparently - the children  were somewhat cornered by the stronger FM.

What i think is not said is what else did they have to give to sweeten the deal with the First Men so that they could actually prevent complete rout.

The persuasion of 'the wise of both races'?

I believe 'the wise of both races' realized it was not in their better interests to be destroying weirwoods.

It should be noted that the First Men could have exterminated the cotf, who were already few in number, small in stature, and armed with far inferior weaponry.

They did not.

Why?

Well, I think it is because the First Men finally began to be integrated into the ecology of Westeros and that they began to have green dreams. Once that began, wiser men prevailed over those swearing bloody vengeance. The cotf were already on that page, but it took men 2000 years to get to it.

 

On 7/25/2016 at 3:55 AM, Black Crow said:

I'm doubtful whether it has any more significance than a bit of dodgy grammar. What I do find telling is the phrase "inhuman others" in the synopsis and the Warg King's "inhuman allies" [the children] in the World Book

 

V6 had inhuman allies when he aspired to power, but they were notably not cotf.

 

Quote

Before Mance, Varamyr Sixskins had been a lord of sorts. He lived alone in a hall of moss and mud and hewn logs that had once been Haggon's, attended by his beasts. A dozen villages did him homage in bread and salt and cider, offering him fruit from their orchards and vegetables from their gardens. His meat he got himself. Whenever he desired a woman he sent his shadowcat to stalk her, and whatever girl he'd cast his eye upon would follow meekly to his bed. Some came weeping, aye, but still they came. Varamyr gave them his seed, took a hank of their hair to remember them by, and sent them back. From time to time, some village hero would come with spear in hand to slay the beastling and save a sister or a lover or a daughter. Those he killed, but he never harmed the women. Some he even blessed with children. Runts. Small, puny things, like Lump, and not one with the gift.

 

On 7/25/2016 at 4:15 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

me-thinks a green deamer was sent after him, but in the doom and gloom of the occasion, it may have taken sometime for them to find each other, even even more time to reach destination.

Just like Jojen was sent to find Bran and take him north of the wall.

  They were in the middle of the miasma, after all.

 

On 7/25/2016 at 4:15 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

 

 

 

you really have no mercy! even for the goats!

LOL! No I do not.

 

On 7/25/2016 at 4:15 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

we don't know that really, they never had the opportunity; they were picked up whilst in their day-time mode. So who knows, if Ghost had not found them, if they would not have been able to get through or even over in their night-time mode.

Yup. Another matter that will have to remain in the realm of speculation.

 

On 7/25/2016 at 4:25 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

it can be dodgy grammar. although my question was more on the point as to why the Others deserve a capital 'O'.

Because they are Proper.

 

On 7/25/2016 at 5:38 AM, Lady Dyanna said:

I guess it depends upon how you look at it. Othor and Jafer already had blue eyes prior to being taken through the wall.

It is true that Othor and Jafer had lost the melanin content of their eyes, but there is blue, like the eyes of the blind, then there are eyes like blue stars.

Othor and Jafer had blue eyes when their bodies were found, but their eyes were not radiant and burning like stars.

That only occurred after they were on the other side of the Wall, and only after darkness had fallen.

It should be noted too that rather than immediately animate and roam at dusk (as the wights rise immediately after sunset at BR's hillside ski resort) they did not rise immediately. Instead, like Waymar Royce and the ski resort wights, they were animated at the strategic moment in which they would be the most lethal. This requires military intelligence.

The fact that this intelligence was not blocked by the Wall demonstrates my point.

 

On 7/25/2016 at 5:38 AM, Lady Dyanna said:

Have we ever seen a wight operate in daylight before or do they go into  some sort of slumber only to come out at night?

Only at night. During the day, they appear as regular dead men. Hence Will's frustration when his dead men moved camp by the time of Waymar's visit.

 

On 7/25/2016 at 5:38 AM, Lady Dyanna said:

And lest we compare apples to oranges, to me it seems a better comparison to equate Davos with the Night's Watch brothers.  Both carried something through the wall, but neither animated it.

Fine by me, but Davos carried the Animator through the Wall. The Sworn Brothers did not.

[ravenous reader]

19 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Try to imagine a long knee-high sock (heh) with the Dawn of Age at the toe and Drogo's funeral pyre close to the edge of the sock near the knee. Now peel it down so that the inside of the sock is slowly unrolling over the top of the outside. It's a poor example since the ouroboros is an unbroken circle, a dragon eating it's own tail, but if a dragon could shed it's skin like a snake, it could peel backwards over itself. 

What a great image!

18 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I've gone back and forth over the cause of the reversal of time. At first I thought Euron removed or unraveled a warded hinge. He is a failed apprentice of the 3EC and he has motive. Add to that Aeron Damphair's terrifying but undescribed memory of a squeaky iron hinge associated with Euron and it seems implied that he changed, removed, or opened an iron ward somewhere. Then I thought maybe Bran did it, but he would have to go back in time to do it. There's a few times people have noticed burned trees and Weasel Pie had a compelling theory that there are burnt places where lightning has struck where Bran has entered the past. Then there's also the idea that this is a normal cycle, much like the Mayans have ages separated into smaller sections and then a number of smaller sections adding up to a larger cycle.

You've got your finger on its pulse.  Let me know when you figure out what's causing that beat!  My instinct is to think it's a normal part of the cycle.  Have you seen that thread by wolfmaid7 called 'those who sing'?  I don't have the reference offhand, but in that thread it was mentioned that creation myths (including Tolkien's Silmarillion) involve the conception of the world as song, including dissonant voices as an essential component within that song-- one might say the song 'hinges' on the back-and-forth vocal exchange between so-called 'good' and 'evil.'  So, although there are offending 'causal' agents, they're nevertheless paradoxically a vital component of the music, and keep that music moving forward even as it moves backward recapitulating earlier themes.

18 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I may need to use this term in my essay that I am preparing for Black Crow's Centennial series. He's kindly allowing me to explain my wheel of time theory, and I hope you will join in the feedback once it's posted. 

Keep me posted!

18 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

There could be a connection between magic and magnetic. I'm sure natural events seemed magical to primitive man.

Indeed, science is just magic by numbers.  Another way of storytelling.

Although you're not doing science, I like your take on the text in that you're trying to figure out some grand geometry as if someone were memorizing a chess game.  I enjoy that about your and others' interpretation, even though I tend to come at it from another angle.

18 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Doom hasn't been explained in the text, but I am wondering if it wasn't the fire dissolving equivalent of what may happen when the Wall swirls away? Maybe Valyria had it's own "Wall" that held back fire magic and it burned away?

I like this.  After all, a cloud of vocanic ash --like ice- or snowflakes-- blows in the wind like leaves.

Also, these grand turning points tend to set up mass migrations of people, latitudes, and other polarities which serve to drive the story forward!

18 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 Once you get the hang of picking out the inversions, it's like reading a second book, and you begin to start looking at the details like they're prophecy. If you know what happened in the past in Westeros, you can guess the inverted future.

Although I wouldn't always be able to pick it out myself, I have no doubt this is what GRRM is doing.

18 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

love this! Iron hinges, iron swords, iron bars and gates...and then to also have scientific evidence that magnetism hinges on iron! Can I use this in my essay?

Sure, if you can get to the bottom of all that iron, fire away!

18 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Regarding the Ironborn. I don't believe it is ever explained why they are called the Ironborn, however I do have a few ideas. IMO the Ironborn were First Men that were purposely separated and warded from the mainland by the hammer of waters, which I believe was directed at them. The text says that the hammer of waters broke the Arm of Dorne, but it also created the Iron Islands. They were left with rocky outcroppings with no means of supporting themselves from what little land that was left. The ward (iron) that was placed upon them was meant to kill them, and they nearly drowned, but they rose up and learned a new way to live. There must have been some trees left on their islands to build ships, because they turned into a seafaring people, raiding the mainland to survive. They were reborn from the iron ward that was meant to kill them, and they rose again harder and stronger since what is already dead can never die.

Weren't there also iron mines on the Iron Islands?  Interestingly, the Targaryens were also miners.

I love your suggestion that a ward can be both a protection and a curse (depending on ones perspective)!

18 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Not only has east become west, but it has caused people to have false or mixed memories. For example, if east is now west Braavos and Bear Island have traded places. This could explain why Dany has memories of the house with the red door as having great wooden carved beams like the keep on Bear Island. Was she ever there, or since east has become west has there been a layering of a "possible past" over the top of her actual past?

This is a great idea, in line with the idea of casting a shadow forwards or backwards in time.  There's also that quote by Qyburn, one of his heretic notions that got him disbarred:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VI

The moonlight glimmered pale upon the stump where Jaime had rested his head. The moss covered it so thickly he had not noticed before, but now he saw that the wood was white. It made him think of Winterfell, and Ned Stark's heart tree. It was not him, he thought. It was never him. But the stump was dead and so was Stark and so were all the others, Prince Rhaegar and Ser Arthur and the children. And Aerys. Aerys is most dead of all. "Do you believe in ghosts, Maester?" he asked Qyburn.

The man's face grew strange. "Once, at the Citadel, I came into an empty room and saw an empty chair. Yet I knew a woman had been there, only a moment before. The cushion was dented where she'd sat, the cloth was still warm, and her scent lingered in the air. If we leave our smells behind us when we leave aroom, surely something of our souls must remain when we leave this life?" Qyburn spread his hands. "The archmaesters did not like my thinking, though. Well, Marwyn did, but he was the only one."

Jaime ran his fingers through his hair. "Walton," he said, "saddle the horses. I want to go back."

[Black Crow]

6 minutes ago, Voice said:

V6 had inhuman allies when he aspired to power, but they were notably not cotf.

Perfectly true, but when the Warg King went down a clear distinction is made between "his inhuman allies the children" - and his beasts.

[Voice]

On 7/25/2016 at 7:56 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Why not humans kill humans everyday in ASOIAF and that's humans not so enmeshed with a collective.All they "need" or "think" they need is ba reason to do say be it

1.Revenge

2.A just cause

3.A the needs of the many,outweigh the needs of the few.......Or the one;type of philosophy

4."I" am become the gods 

Any of these ideologies can lead to the result of hem killing humans . But i think you are ignoring some elements that may be of improtance here. How do these human greenseers see themselves? Are they wholly,soley human? They are part of a collective after all so how does that play? Voice you read the series so why feint not understanding what it could mean for a human greenseer being part of a collective?

I think you are missing the point.

Greenseers benefit from powers induced by weirwoods.

Weirwoods benefit from a natural ecology.

The Others destroy the natural ecology.

Thus, the destruction of the natural ecology is not beneficial for weirwoods, which are the source and seat of greenseer power. 

Your scenario suggests a self-defeating purpose. Certainly, humans are prone to such behavior, but you cannot argue both sides at once:  that Greenseers are asserting their power via acts that destroy their power.

 

On 7/25/2016 at 7:56 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

I'm not saying they are autonomous.If they are just husks then they can be used in what ever capacity suits the purpose of the puppeteer.The point i was making is highlighting that the shadowbaby on its own and in its form can't cross Storm's end.Had Melissandre birth Stannis Jr outside the walls he couldn't pass. Likewise,the Wights and the greenseer(s) that control them.The Wghts are familiars they have already been touched, marked as skins.Thus giving their proxy(ies) the ability to use them.Proxy(ies) are Skinchangers they cannot reach their skins once they cross the Wall.They themselves cannot pull a disembodied V6 move on the wind and pass the Wall.In that manner they are just like Mel's baby...A shadow on the wind and so cannot pass.So, hitch a ride in one of your suits and get pass the threshold which is exactly what happened.

They made it pass the Wall,then once the Cold winds began to rise...Boom.They have their ride again.

 

But wind can and does move over and through the Wall, with or without wight migration.

The one and only thing we have seen that is NOT able to pass through, over, or under the Wall, is the bond of skinchanging.

The one and only thing we have seen that is not able to permeate the walls of Storm's End, is shadowbinding.

That Othor and Jafer Flowers rose at all immediately demonstrates that the ability that animated them is not skinchanging, and, unlike Mel's shadowbinding at Storm's End, it was able to pass through the Wall.

[Voice]

11 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Perfectly true, but when the Warg King went down a clear distinction is made between "his inhuman allies the children" - and his beasts.

Right you are, ser. Disregard my protest.

[ravenous reader]

19 hours ago, LynnS said:

It also could suggest that the Hammer of the Waters didn't require a comet or calling up the oceans to inundate the land; but breaking the ice dams blocking large glacial lakes instead.

Cool!

14 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Welcome to Heresy and thank you for a very interesting post. As to land bridges I refer to the answer I just gave to LynnS, otherwise I have to enter the caveat that GRRM has said in the past that the dodgy seasons have a magical cause rather than a scientific one. I forget the exact words he has used, but essentially as I pointed out above, things happen because GRRM needs them to - and notwithstanding the real world parallel that may apply to the Breaking of the Arm as well.

In general, however, I remain wary of theories of overarching events influenced or even orchestrated by greenseers or anybody else. This will not end when with one bound Jack was free. Its a story about people and how they interact with each other [usually badly] and respond to the world around them, rather than about that world. 

Thank you for the warm welcome to a chilly subject!  Enjoyed the link to the Weald-Artois-Anticline. Sure, my intention is not to provide scientific explanation for the fantasies emanating from one man's brain. However, he's a post-modern writer writing in a 'medieval' world, so he inevitably brings his arcane interests to bear and reworks these in his writing (e.g. notions of time travel in sci-fi cannot really be divorced from the scientific meditations on time by Einstein and the rest which may have inspired them).

I agree it's a story about the human heart and the sound and the fury.  However, it's also a story about how enmeshed human beings are in larger patterns, as if we're satisfying unseen, unknown complex equations and geometries.  That's why I enjoy Feather Crystal's attempt to formulate a grand geometry of the thing, even if that is only a construct.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

 Have you seen that thread by wolfmaid7 called 'those who sing'?

I've read it a long time ago, but I confess I do not recall what it all entailed. I should re-read it. I think she has a link in her signature.

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Although you're not doing science, I like your take on the text in that you're trying to figure out some grand geometry as if someone were memorizing a chess game.  I enjoy that about your and others' interpretation, even though I tend to come at it from another angle.

Thank you for the recognition! I know that I don't always communicate what I'm thinking very well, but it is my forte to search for and assemble the larger picture. I gather tidbits from every conversation and weave them together. I want the various parts to not only fit, but make logical sense, and I'm not so totally vested in one idea that I'm unwilling to change something for a better explanation. I've already changed two major parts this week! lol

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Weren't there also iron mines on the Iron Islands?  Interestingly, the Targaryens were also miners.

I had forgotten to include that parallel, but now that you mention it the Targaryen's roots are in slavery which contradicts Dany's anti-slave policies in Meereen. On the other hand the Ironborn mined for themselves, although they probably used thralls to do most of the work. Victarion thinks back on the Old Ways of taking the defeated as prisoners. He thinks their way is more honorable, because women and children are taken as salt wives and thralls and treated humanely. He complains with the way Euron's men put the defeated of the Shield Islands in chains. 

It's a slight inversion, but I don't claim that the inversions are exact opposites. It's more like starting a new game of chess or cyvasse. The ending of the game is determined by what piece you play first. The Ironborn and the Dragonlords faced similar events, but the way they dealt with them will be different, because they are different people with different skills and resources.

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

I agree it's a story about the human heart and the sound and the fury.  However, it's also a story about how enmeshed human beings are in larger patterns, as if we're satisfying unseen, unknown complex equations and geometries.  That's why I enjoy Feather Crystal's attempt to formulate a grand geometry of the thing, even if that is only a construct.

I lean towards the Long Night as being more about a period of time where the Children lived in fear rather than in literal darkness. And I do believe the story of the Long Night is told from their point of view. The Others are not just one race. Their identities were different with each wave of human migration. When the First Men arrived in Westeros, they were the Others. When the Andals arrived, they were the Others. And when the white walkers attacked humans, they became known as the Others too.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I suspect the Long Night was created by abusing ice magic and the doom was a later disaster from abusing fire.  So similar, but not related

Yes, of course.  What was I thinking?  LOL

[Arry'sFleas]

2 hours ago, Voice said:

 

On 25/07/2016 at 9:25 PM, Arry'sFleas said:

it can be dodgy grammar. although my question was more on the point as to why the Others deserve a capital 'O'.

Because they are Proper.

 

indeed, they are the Ice Watch, with a capital 'I'.