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Heresy 189


Black Crow

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8 hours ago, Voice said:

It is true that Othor and Jafer had lost the melanin content of their eyes, but there is blue, like the eyes of the blind, then there are eyes like blue stars.

Othor and Jafer had blue eyes when their bodies were found, but their eyes were not radiant and burning like stars.

That only occurred after they were on the other side of the Wall, and only after darkness had fallen.

True. But what caused there eyes to appear to have lost their melanin content? Something had to have caused this to happen. Did that something come through the wall with Othor and Jafer, or maybe better said, hidden within Othor and Jafer, only coming out to play once darkness had fallen.

8 hours ago, Voice said:

It should be noted too that rather than immediately animate and roam at dusk (as the wights rise immediately after sunset at BR's hillside ski resort) they did not rise immediately. Instead, like Waymar Royce and the ski resort wights, they were animated at the strategic moment in which they would be the most lethal. This requires military intelligence.

The fact that this intelligence was not blocked by the Wall demonstrates my point.

Actually we don't know when Ohtor and Jafer rose.  We only know when they chose to attack. We have no direct knowledge that they were in fact animated at a strategic point in time.  It may well be the fact that they were animated right after sunset, but chose to wait until a more strategic time in order to begin their attack.

8 hours ago, Voice said:

Fine by me, but Davos carried the Animator through the Wall. The Sworn Brothers did not.

Actually it's quite possible that the brothers of the night watch did. It just worked in reverse.  In Mel's case Davos carried both Mel (the animator) and the shadow (the weapon) through the wall.  In the case of the Night's Watch brothers they carried the entity within Othor and Jafer (the animator) and Othor and Jafer themselves (the weapons) through the wall.

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10 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

True. But what caused there eyes to appear to have lost their melanin content? Something had to have caused this to happen. Did that something come through the wall with Othor and Jafer, or maybe better said, hidden within Othor and Jafer, only coming out to play once darkness had fallen.

Actually we don't know when Ohtor and Jafer rose.  We only know when they chose to attack. We have no direct knowledge that they were in fact animated at a strategic point in time.  It may well be the fact that they were animated right after sunset, but chose to wait until a more strategic time in order to begin their attack.

Actually it's quite possible that the brothers of the night watch did. It just worked in reverse.  In Mel's case Davos carried both Mel (the animator) and the shadow (the weapon) through the wall.  In the case of the Night's Watch brothers they carried the entity within Othor and Jafer (the animator) and Othor and Jafer themselves (the weapons) through the wall.

Its a puzzling one to be sure and I'd offer two possible solutions:

First: it happened because GRRM needed it to happen at that particular point in the story and damn the logic.

Second: while its perfectly true that the magic in the Wall blocks communication and therefore control from the other side, there is a raven in Castle Black whose behaviour is rather odd.

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I discovered something interesting the other day. It isn't until the third book, ASoS, that we finally hear the Tale of the Night's King from Bran. It is nestled among several other tales that he recounts surrounding the Nightfort while he is staying there with Jojen, Meera and Hodor.
 
"As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan’s stories, the tale of Night’s King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.
 
He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.
 
“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.” No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we’ll sleep tonight. He did not like that notion very much at all. Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it’s getting dark."
 
And yet, something of this tale seems somehow familiar. How could that be? Where have we heard parts of this tale before? As it turns out, we've heard it all from Bran before. This time, however, it wasn't part of a tale, and it didn't come from Old Nan. It came entirely from Bran, from the deepest corners of his mind prior to awakening. Let's look at the dream Bran has immediately prior to awakening from his coma to see if we can find the connections...
 
"It seemed as though he had been falling for years. Fly, a voice whispered in the darkness, but Bran did not know how to fly, so all he could do was fall. Maester Luwin made a little boy of clay, baked him till he was hard and brittle, dressed him in Bran’s clothes, and flung him off a roof. Bran remembered the way he shattered.
 
“But I never fall,” he said, falling.4 (a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.”) 8 (After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others)

The ground was so far below him he could barely make it out through the grey mists that whirled around him, but he could feel how fast he was falling, and he knew what was waiting for him down there. Even in dreams, you could not fall forever. He would wake up in the instant before he hit the ground, he knew. You always woke up in the instant before you hit the ground. And if you don’t? the voice asked.
 
The ground was closer now, still far far away, a thousand miles away, but closer than it had been. It was cold here in the darkness. There was no sun, no stars, only the ground below coming up to smash him, and the grey mists, and the whispering voice. He wanted to cry.
 
Not cry. Fly.
 
“I can’t fly,” Bran said. “I can’t, I can’t …” How do you know? Have you ever tried? The voice was high and thin. Bran looked around to see where it was coming from. A crow was spiraling down with him, just out of reach, following him as he fell.
 
“Help me,” he said.
 
I’m trying, the crow replied. Say, got any corn?
 
Bran reached into his pocket as the darkness spun dizzily around him. When he pulled his hand out, golden kernels slid from between his fingers into the air. They fell with him. The crow landed on his hand and began to eat.1 (and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.)
 
“Are you really a crow?” Bran asked.2 (and he saw that the crow was really a woman, a serving woman with long black hair)
Are you really falling? the crow asked back.
 
“It’s just a dream,” Bran said. Is it? asked the crow.
 
“I’ll wake up when I hit the ground,” Bran told the bird. You’ll die when you hit the ground, the crow said. It went back to eating corn.
 
Bran looked down. He could see mountains now, their peaks white with snow, and the silver thread of rivers in dark woods. He closed his eyes and began to cry.
 
That won’t do any good, the crow said. I told you, the answer is flying, not crying. How hard can it be. I’m doing it. The crow took to the air and flapped around Bran’s hand.
 
“You have wings,” Bran pointed out.
 
Maybe you do too. Bran felt along his shoulders, groping for feathers.
 
There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.
 
Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. Had he always been so thin? He tried to remember. A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. “The things I do for love,” it said.3 (A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.)
 
Bran screamed. The crow took to the air, cawing. Not that, it shrieked at him. Forget that, you do not need it now, put it aside, put it away. It landed on Bran’s shoulder, and pecked at him, and the shining golden face was gone. Bran was falling faster than ever. The grey mists howled around him as he plunged toward the earth below.
 
“What are you doing to me?” he asked the crow, tearful. Teaching you how to fly.
 
“I can’t fly!” You’re flying right now.
 
“I’m falling!” Every flight begins with a fall, the crow said. Look down.
 
“I’m afraid …” LOOK DOWN! Bran looked down, and felt his insides turn to water. The ground was rushing up at him now. The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry of white and brown and green. He could see everything so clearly that for a moment he forgot to be afraid.4 (a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.”)
 
He could see the whole realm, and everyone in it. He saw Winterfell as the eagles see it, the tall towers looking squat and stubby from above, the castle walls just lines in the dirt. He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book. He saw his brother Robb, taller and stronger than he remembered him, practicing swordplay in the yard with real steel in his hand. He saw Hodor, the simple giant from the stables, carrying an anvil to Mikken’s forge, hefting it onto his shoulder as easily as another man might heft a bale of hay. At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.5 (He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen)
 
He looked east, and saw a galley racing across the waters of the Bite. He saw his mother sitting alone in a cabin, looking at a bloodstained knife on a table in front of her, as the rowers pulled at their oars and Ser Rodrik leaned across a rail, shaking and heaving. A storm was gathering ahead of them, a vast dark roaring lashed by lightning, but somehow they could not see it.
 
He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.
 
He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise. Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal 6 (skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars), and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.7 (though her skin was cold as ice/with skin as white as the moon) 
 
And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks. Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.
 
“Why?” Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling. Because winter is coming.8 (After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others)

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.
 
“Can a man still be brave if he’s afraid?” he heard his own voice saying, small and far away. And his father’s voice replied to him.
 
“That is the only time a man can be brave.”
 
Now, Bran, the crow urged. Choose. Fly or die. Death reached for him, screaming. Bran spread his arms and flew. Wings unseen drank the wind and filled and pulled him upward. The terrible needles of ice receded below him. The sky opened up above. Bran soared. It was better than climbing. It was better than anything. The world grew small beneath him.
 
“I’m flying!” he cried out in delight. I’ve noticed, said the three-eyed crow. It took to the air, flapping its wings in his face, slowing him, blinding him. He faltered in the air as its pinions beat against his cheeks. Its beak stabbed at him fiercely, and Bran felt a sudden blinding pain in the middle of his forehead, between his eyes.
 
“What are you doing?” he shrieked. The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil, and he saw that the crow was really a woman, a serving woman with long black hair9 (A woman was his downfall), and he knew her from somewhere, from Winterfell, yes, that was it, he remembered her now, and then he realized that he was in Winterfell, in a bed high in some chilly tower room, and the black-haired woman dropped a basin of water to shatter on the floor and ran down the  steps, shouting, “He’s awake, he’s awake, he’s awake."
 
1. and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.
 
2. and he saw that the crow was really a woman, a serving woman with long black hair
 
3. A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.
 
4. a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.”
 
5. He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen
 
6. skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars
 
7. though her skin was cold as ice/with skin as white as the moon
 
8. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others
 
9. A woman was his downfall
 

Do you see what I see?
 
 
 
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14 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Second: while its perfectly true that the magic in the Wall blocks communication and therefore control from the other side, there is a raven in Castle Black whose behaviour is rather odd.

I'd say it was just the connection to the weirnet, but, Orrel's eagle didn't seem to have too many problems either...

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its a puzzling one to be sure and I'd offer two possible solutions:

First: it happened because GRRM needed it to happen at that particular point in the story and damn the logic.

Second: while its perfectly true that the magic in the Wall blocks communication and therefore control from the other side, there is a raven in Castle Black whose behaviour is rather odd.

I am also not 100% convinced that the Wall is the magic element blocking the contact between Jon and Ghost. He didn't sense Ghost beyond the Wall when he was negotiating with Mance just before Stannis attacked. Maybe Ghost was in a warded cave receiving further instructions from others.

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14 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I have to reread the part where Bran visits Jon, I didn't pick up on it being from the future.  Probably something very significant happened that Bran wanted to tell him to do different, maybe meeting Yigrette.

It's easy to miss because Jon has his Weir Bran encounter in Clash of Kings before Bran has even met Coldhands.  Then we get Bran's recollection of the event in another book.  So we don't have any information about Bloordraven and the chronology is confusing.  The only thing that ties the chronology together is that Bran sees Jon escape from the Wildlings before he enters the Night Fort.  So Jon encounters a version of Bran that must exist in Winds of Winter (because we haven't seen Bran's transformation into the 3EC yet) and comes back to see Jon very early on in the story. So i think that any time intrusion by Bran is significant in some way; if you can figure out when he has shown up in the past.  That could even be before Bran is born.  

We have a semi-confirmation, I suppose, that Bran can warg Hodor in the past,  although it damages his mind.  Specifically he can't speak and seems a little slow.  But he can comprehend.  The 3EC can enter minds under a set of conditions: during grave illness as in Jojen's fever experience; or during a dream state or coma like Bran; or like Theon at Ramsey's wedding who hears his name whispered.  They are all altered states of consciousness.  Theon's state of mind having been altered by the sustained torture mental and physical pain by Ramsey.  The Stark wolf blood makes a difference as well.  The direwolf kids can easily connect with each other in their wolf dreams and some have more of the wolf in their blood than others (i.e. Sansa may have less).  Which is why Ned almost hears Bran, but not quite.  Bloodraven insists that it's not possible when Bran persists that Ned could hear him.  But then again BR doesn't have the wolf blood and Melisandre seems to contradict that possibility when she tells Jon that she has talked to long dead kings.

There is a connection between not being able to speak and the power of the word (or giving one's word). 

Melisandre - aDwD:

My spells should suffice.  She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai.  Her every word and gesture was more potent and she could do things she had never done before.

And at the end of the chapter when she removes Mance's glamor:

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck and spoke a word.

The sound echoed queerly from the corners of the room and twisted like a worm inside their ears.  The wildling heard one word, the crow another.  Neither was the word that left her lips.

Hodor's inability to speak and the power of the word calls to mind Samwell Tarley's strange condition after he gives his word to Coldhands not to speak of Bran.  Coldhands is so adamant about it that he makes Sam promise three times; once to Jojen, Bran and Coldhands.  Sam later ponders the strength of that word bond over his mind and that no matter how badly he wants to tell Jon that Bran is alive; he is not able to do so. Who Sam makes the oath to seems important as Jojen is a Green Dreamer, Bran the next 3EC and Coldhands, well who knows.  But suffice it to say; they are all intermediaries of the old gods.

The world believes the boy is dead ... Let his bones lie undisturbed. We want no seekers coming after us. Swear it, Samwell of the Night's Watch. Swear it for the life you owe me . - A SoS Sam Chapter 75

 The life Sam owes Coldhands are Gilly, her baby and Samwell himself; and so he makes three promises. 
 

There is another who has had his lips sealed in  a manner similar to Sam and that's Ned Stark. He has never talked about Ashara Dayne or any event connected to her including the Tourney of Harrenahall.  Even Meera and Jojen find that strange.  The only time she is mentioned is when Catelyn brings it up and Ned flies into a rage forcing her to take and oath of obedience and that's the end of it.  Not even when Cersei baits Ned with Ashara does he speak of it. 

How did Ned's lips become sealed so tightly?  I suspect a time intrusion at the Tower of Joy.  Ned makes three promises to Lyanna:

Promise me Ned, promise me, promise me ....

But who is it that bind Ned to silence if it isn't Bran the future 3EC.  Who can enter if the wolf blood is strong (Lyanna who has more of the wolf blood in her than her siblings), dying of a fever (an altered state of mind) and can only speak in a whisper.  Who wants to talk to Ned so badly that he would defy his mentors warning?  

This is Bran from the future exacting promises to protect three lives and sealing Ned's lips.  Bran is the Prince (of Winterfell) who is promised (by Ned).  Even Leaf says that Bran's coming was promised to the CotF for 200 years.

And who is the boy the world must believe is dead so that nobody comes searching?  That must be Aegon who dies his hair blue to honor his mother and Septa Lemore who says that Aegon isn't the only one who has to disguise himself.;

 

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I reread Jon's vision of Bran and the Jon chapters in that book.  Bran shows Jon a vision of an army of wildlings and giants.  Jon and Quorin assume it is the Milkwater and the present, but now I wonder if it may be a larger army to fight the Others in the future.  Certainly nothing Bran shows Jon is to take him away from Yigrette, but the dream causes him to change course and possibly saves his life.

Who is the servant girl with long hair?  Is she significant, or is the crow BR and Bran just confused?

We see several crows in BRs cave with the spirits of those long dead otherwise inside them.  I assumed the crow at castle black is similar and such a creature can freely cross the Wall, while a warg bond between 2 beings, 1 on each side, is not allowed.

 

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11 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I reread Jon's vision of Bran and the Jon chapters in that book.  Bran shows Jon a vision of an army of wildlings and giants.  Jon and Quorin assume it is the Milkwater and the present, but now I wonder if it may be a larger army to fight the Others in the future.  Certainly nothing Bran shows Jon is to take him away from Yigrette, but the dream causes him to change course and possibly saves his life.

Yes, that's what I think is significant.  it's advanced intelligence that changes decisions.  What is also interesting about Bran's recollection is that he says he touched Ghost and talked to Jon but then wonders if he dreamed Jon. Bloodraven also talks about the dreamers calling to him.  So I suspect in future books any dreams that Bran has of talking to (dead) people or witnessing events might indicate a time incursion on his part.

Likewise, things that we come across that seem out of place.  For example the trees with carved faces that Jon sees when he goes to Molestown.  Up until now, only wierwoods have carved faces.  The drunken aspen with a likeness of Tyrion, the old chestnut with mormont's raven perched on a branch, Bloodraven  and the large Oak Tree with the angry face - Bran.  There is a corresponding likeness in the towers at Moat Cailin:  the drunken tower, the children's tower and the Night Fort's Tower with it ghost moss hanging on the limb of a tree (Black Gate) and it's broken crown of stones.

But I don't know what this means.

       

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35 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

We see several crows in BRs cave with the spirits of those long dead otherwise inside them.  I assumed the crow at castle black is similar and such a creature can freely cross the Wall, while a warg bond between 2 beings, 1 on each side, is not allowed.

Specifically, I think Mormont's raven goes with each successive Lord Commander and it's the current greenseer of the time who is watching the going on in Mormont's office and then later with Jon; it may very well be Bran using the raven at some point.

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54 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Who is the servant girl with long hair?  Is she significant, or is the crow BR and Bran just confused?

At the time of Bran's dream, I believe that the crow is actually BR and Bran is confused. I do like the imagery of the crow turning into this unknown serving girl, as the 3EC has not always been BR. Who was the 3EC at the time of the Night's King? Could it have been a woman? Possiby one that matches a certain description?

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18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Specifically, I think Mormont's raven goes with each successive Lord Commander and it's the current greenseer of the time who is watching the going on in Mormont's office and then later with Jon; it may very well be Bran using the raven at some point.

Or the raven may have an agenda of its own, but that can wait for the bicentennial essay.

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5 hours ago, Tucu said:

I am also not 100% convinced that the Wall is the magic element blocking the contact between Jon and Ghost. 

But then again GRRM referred to it as a small but significant plot device

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Who is the servant girl with long hair?  

A servant girl.

Bran is dreaming of the Three-eyed-Crow but as he wakes up the black vision of the crow in the dream morphs into the actuallity of the Winterfell serving girl in the real world. 

GRRM uses exactly the same device in ending Ned Stark's dream of the fight at the tower of joy. He thinks he hears Lyanna cry "Lord Eddard" [thugh why she should call to him thus in extremis...] but in fact it is Vayon Poole quite properly addressing him as "Lord Eddard" as he tries to waken him.

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On July 27, 2016 at 4:31 PM, LynnS said:

Yes, I agree with Redriver but I can't remember if he explained how the Wall held back the cold.  I think the Wall does more than hold back the cold; I think it specifically draws the killing cold to itself and contains it in the ice itself.   The killing cold is the agent that puts out campfires and raises the dead.  It doesn't seem logical to me that it can be defeated with fire magic but only with ice magic itself.  How does the Wall contain an air mass?  Why doesn't it just go around or over?   I'll crib from some of my notes:

The Wall has the characteristics of a man made "fire" break in that the NW keep the trees cut down and provide for it's maintenance. Ostensibly, to keep the wildlings from getting across, which it fails to do, because it wasn't the wall's original purpose.

"Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks." - Bran Got

 

 

 

The Wall has all the characteristics of a glacier in it's massive size and it's blue white color. Glaciers are sometimes characterized as having the properties of stone. That Planetos went through some kind of ice age seems evident with the inclusion of such animals as the woolly mammoths and the now defunct unicorns (woolly rhinoceros). Possibly even the giants as a proto-race like the neanderthal. Finding the Horn of Joramun under a receding glacier is contemporary with finding stone age artifacts that we do today. It's also suggestive that the last ice age began receding about 12,000 years ago and that massive flooding events in North America and the Middle East occurred giving us the origin stories for Gilgamesh and Noah and in GRRM's world, the Hammer of the Waters.  The CotF wouldn't have to call down a comet or meteor to do that or call up the waters of the oceans;  they would just have to break the ice holding back massive glacial lakes.    Essentially, the wall is a massive dam.  If absorbs and contains the killing cold; otherwise everything within it's reach, plant and animal would become a dead zone.  So bringing down the Wall or releasing the magic it contains would result in a massive tsunami of death.  Very dangerous indeed.  

I think the Wall is made of the same magic stuff that animates the wights and it feeds on death.   This is why it's evil.  It draws the killing cold to itself and contains it and the more of the stuff it gets; the stronger the wall becomes.  It's using the same ice magic at the Ancient One as a defence for the living. 

The physical wall is not made of 'normal ice' and it's infused with ice magic and warding magic. Just as a glacier locks water up inside it; the wall locks up the killing cold inside it. This may be the reason for it's massive size; why the Night's Watch has to maintain it and continue topping it up.  The killing cold is responsible for the Wall being made of blood as Ygritte tells Jon.

In a sense, the Wall wasn't raised... magic was applied to it; so it would devour the ice sheet behind it and draw the killing cold to itself.  The Night's Watch continued to add to it.   This is how the season's became unbalanced with long summers and winters. The more the Wall grew in size; the more the seasons were unbalanced.   The Wall absorbs too much cold; melting the North when it should remain cool ending in long summers and then drawing down the cold to swing the climate the other way for the long winters.

Physically, it's a remnant of a glacier; the front edge of the ice sheet that remains having been 'fixed' in place with binding and ice magic.  It serves to dam the killing cold, the cold that raises the dead;  drawing, consuming, and containing it.  When it was first raised; it consumed it's own tail until only the fixed portion remained becoming the Wall.  It shrinks and it grows with the seasons.  The NW continuing to add to it's size.  It continues to draw the killing cold to itself and it's so massive it affects the seasons.  It has to come down; but doing so would release all that killing cold collected and contained for thousands of years and wipe out everything in it's way.  All the fires would go out.

The Wall is GRRM's version of the Orobouros; the serpent or dragon that consumes it's own tail.  

And these descriptions from Bran from aSoS following his encounter with Jon before entering the Night Fort:

The Wall could look like stone, all grey and pitted, but then the clouds would break and the sun would hit it differently, and all at once it would transform, and stand there white and blue and glittering. It was the end of the world, Old Nan always said. On the other side were monsters and giants and ghouls, but they could not pass so long as the Wall stood strong.

He remembered Maester Luwin saying the Nightfort was the only castle where the steps had been cut from the ice of the wall itself. Or maybe it had been Uncle Benjen. The newer castles had wooden steps, or stone ones, or long ramps of earth and gravel. Ice is too treacherous. It was his uncle who'd told him that. He said the outer surface of the Wall wept icy tears sometimes, though the core inside stayed frozen hard as rock. The steps must have melted and refrozen a thousand times since the last black brothers left the castle, and every time they did they shrunk a little and got smoother and rounder and more treacherous.

And smaller. It's almost like the Wall was swallowing them back into itself.


And yes, there is a fire side to the equation.  The Wall is described by Benjen as both a Sword and a Serprent: a hinge of the world with two leaves.  One connecting to Winterfell and the other to the House of the Undying.  I expect that Dany will have to resolve the fire side of the Wall equation with Euron as protagonist.

The first known appearance of the ouroboros motif is in the Enigmatic Book of the Netherworld, an ancient Egyptian funerary text in KV62, the tomb of Tutankhamun, in the 14th century BC. The text concerns the actions of the god Ra and his union with Osiris in the underworld. In an illustration from this text, two serpents, holding their tails in their mouths, coil around the head and feet of an enormous god, who may represent the unified Ra-Osiris. Both serpents are manifestations of the deity Mehen, who in other funerary texts protects Ra in his underworld journey. The whole divine figure represents the beginning and the end of time.[6] Wikipedia

I am the storm, my lord. The first storm, and the last. -Euron Greyjoy
 

The ice side of the equation:

In Norse mythology, the ouroboros appears as the serpent Jörmungandr, one of the three children of Loki and Angrboda, which grew so large that it could encircle the world and grasp its tail in its teeth.


The House of Black and White connection:

In alchemy, the ouroboros is a sigil. Swiss psychologist Carl Jung saw the ouroboros as an archetype and the basic mandala of alchemy. Jung also defined the relationship of the ouroboros to alchemy:[15]

The alchemists, who in their own way knew more about the nature of the individuation process than we moderns do, expressed this paradox through the symbol of the Ouroboros, the snake that eats its own tail. The Ouroboros has been said to have a meaning of infinity or wholeness. In the age-old image of the Ouroboros lies the thought of devouring oneself and turning oneself into a circulatory process, for it was clear to the more astute alchemists that the prima materia of the art was man himself. The Ouroboros is a dramatic symbol for the integration and assimilation of the opposite, i.e. of the shadow. This 'feed-back' process is at the same time a symbol of immortality, since it is said of the Ouroboros that he slays himself and brings himself to life, fertilizes himself and gives birth to himself. He symbolizes the One, who proceeds from the clash of opposites, and he therefore constitutes the secret of the prima materia which [...] unquestionably stems from man's unconscious. - wikipedia

The Dawn Age:

The ouroboros or oroboros  is an ancient symbol depicting a serpent or dragon eating its own tail.

The ouroboros often symbolizes self-reflexivity, introspection, or cyclicality,[3] especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself, the eternal return, and other things such as the phoenix which operate in cycles that begin anew as soon as they end. It can also represent the idea of primordial unity related to something existing in or persisting from the beginning with such force or qualities it cannot be extinguished.

The Jungian psychologist Erich Neumann writes of it as a representation of the pre-ego "dawn state", depicting the undifferentiated infancy experience of both mankind and the individual child.[5] 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I had to add these thoughts to your Wall theory...

Your explanation about how the Wall was built and how it effected the seasons makes sense to me even if I lack in scientific knowledge. The large wall of ice consumes ice magic, drawing it to itself. It draws the cool air towards it, pulling warmer air in from the south in it's wake, thus the extended summer. At the same time it is pulling cold air from the north until there is so much cold air that it forces the warmer air south again, thus the extended winter. In this way the Wall "breathes". 

When the Wall was first built, it had a lot of catching up to do. It drew all the cold air to it and at the same time it pulled so hard that a rush of warmth was brought north. A movement like that would cause a great gust of air that could in theory feed a very large flame. Thus, the creation of the Wall fed the flames of the Valyrian volcanoes.

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's easy to miss because Jon has his Weir Bran encounter in Clash of Kings before Bran has even met Coldhands.  Then we get Bran's recollection of the event in another book.  So we don't have any information about Bloordraven and the chronology is confusing.  The only thing that ties the chronology together is that Bran sees Jon escape from the Wildlings before he enters the Night Fort.  So Jon encounters a version of Bran that must exist in Winds of Winter (because we haven't seen Bran's transformation into the 3EC yet) and comes back to see Jon very early on in the story. So i think that any time intrusion by Bran is significant in some way; if you can figure out when he has shown up in the past.  That could even be before Bran is born.  

We have a semi-confirmation, I suppose, that Bran can warg Hodor in the past,  although it damages his mind.  Specifically he can't speak and seems a little slow.  But he can comprehend.  The 3EC can enter minds under a set of conditions: during grave illness as in Jojen's fever experience; or during a dream state or coma like Bran; or like Theon at Ramsey's wedding who hears his name whispered.  They are all altered states of consciousness.  Theon's state of mind having been altered by the sustained torture mental and physical pain by Ramsey.  The Stark wolf blood makes a difference as well.  The direwolf kids can easily connect with each other in their wolf dreams and some have more of the wolf in their blood than others (i.e. Sansa may have less).  Which is why Ned almost hears Bran, but not quite.  Bloodraven insists that it's not possible when Bran persists that Ned could hear him.  But then again BR doesn't have the wolf blood and Melisandre seems to contradict that possibility when she tells Jon that she has talked to long dead kings.

There is a connection between not being able to speak and the power of the word (or giving one's word). 

Melisandre - aDwD:

My spells should suffice.  She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai.  Her every word and gesture was more potent and she could do things she had never done before.

And at the end of the chapter when she removes Mance's glamor:

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck and spoke a word.

The sound echoed queerly from the corners of the room and twisted like a worm inside their ears.  The wildling heard one word, the crow another.  Neither was the word that left her lips.

Hodor's inability to speak and the power of the word calls to mind Samwell Tarley's strange condition after he gives his word to Coldhands not to speak of Bran.  Coldhands is so adamant about it that he makes Sam promise three times; once to Jojen, Bran and Coldhands.  Sam later ponders the strength of that word bond over his mind and that no matter how badly he wants to tell Jon that Bran is alive; he is not able to do so. Who Sam makes the oath to seems important as Jojen is a Green Dreamer, Bran the next 3EC and Coldhands, well who knows.  But suffice it to say; they are all intermediaries of the old gods.

The world believes the boy is dead ... Let his bones lie undisturbed. We want no seekers coming after us. Swear it, Samwell of the Night's Watch. Swear it for the life you owe me . - A SoS Sam Chapter 75

 The life Sam owes Coldhands are Gilly, her baby and Samwell himself; and so he makes three promises. 
 

There is another who has had his lips sealed in  a manner similar to Sam and that's Ned Stark. He has never talked about Ashara Dayne or any event connected to her including the Tourney of Harrenahall.  Even Meera and Jojen find that strange.  The only time she is mentioned is when Catelyn brings it up and Ned flies into a rage forcing her to take and oath of obedience and that's the end of it.  Not even when Cersei baits Ned with Ashara does he speak of it. 

How did Ned's lips become sealed so tightly?  I suspect a time intrusion at the Tower of Joy.  Ned makes three promises to Lyanna:

Promise me Ned, promise me, promise me ....

But who is it that bind Ned to silence if it isn't Bran the future 3EC.  Who can enter if the wolf blood is strong (Lyanna who has more of the wolf blood in her than her siblings), dying of a fever (an altered state of mind) and can only speak in a whisper.  Who wants to talk to Ned so badly that he would defy his mentors warning?  

This is Bran from the future exacting promises to protect three lives and sealing Ned's lips.  Bran is the Prince (of Winterfell) who is promised (by Ned).  Even Leaf says that Bran's coming was promised to the CotF for 200 years.

And who is the boy the world must believe is dead so that nobody comes searching?  That must be Aegon who dies his hair blue to honor his mother and Septa Lemore who says that Aegon isn't the only one who has to disguise himself.;

 

 

I agree a series of three is quite significant, because I think a series of three blood magic rites is what turned the ouroboros inside out: Summerhal, tower of joy, and Mirri's tent. I don't know for sure of course, but after Mirri's tent ritual...magic began to get stronger. Dany was able to hatch dragons out of Drogo's funeral pyre, and the timeline of sequential events began happening in reverse.

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I had to add these thoughts to your Wall theory...

Your explanation about how the Wall was built and how it effected the seasons makes sense to me even if I lack in scientific knowledge. The large wall of ice consumes ice magic, drawing it to itself. It draws the cool air towards it, pulling warmer air in from the south in it's wake, thus the extended summer. At the same time it is pulling cold air from the north until there is so much cold air that it forces the warmer air south again, thus the extended winter. In this way the Wall "breathes". 

When the Wall was first built, it had a lot of catching up to do. It drew all the cold air to it and at the same time it pulled so hard that a rush of warmth was brought north. A movement like that would cause a great gust of air that could in theory feed a very large flame. Thus, the creation of the Wall fed the flames of the Valyrian volcanoes.

I like the ideas that we are discussing on the fire side of the equation.  It's not something that I have focused attention as much as the Wall.  I think this will be a very interesting discussion for the bi-centennial project!

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22 hours ago, Tucu said:

The world book says that there is no evidence that the CoTF inhabited the Iron Islands. The weirwoods have not been included in their religion as either good or evil and it seems that they have only a minor legend that mentions weirwoods.

If their name was related to a struggle with the weirwoods/Old Gods/CoTF, I would expect these enemies to make a bigger appearance in their religion and lore.

To the first point, isn't it just as unlikely that the Iron Born originated on the Iron Islands? As to the second, I believe that the Old Gods do make an appearance in Iron Born religion, in the form of the Storm God. Though it occasionally seems a bit ambiguous, isn't the Storm God generally framed as the big baddie in their religion?

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

I agree a series of three is quite significant, because I think a series of three blood magic rites is what turned the ouroboros inside out: Summerhal, tower of joy, and Mirri's tent. I don't know for sure of course, but after Mirri's tent ritual...magic began to get stronger. Dany was able to hatch dragons out of Drogo's funeral pyre, and the timeline of sequential events began happening in reverse.

I have some other ideas about that ritual that I think you will like.  But I'm saving it for later.  LOL.

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15 minutes ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

To the first point, isn't it just as unlikely that the Iron Born originated on the Iron Islands? As to the second, I believe that the Old Gods do make an appearance in Iron Born religion, in the form of the Storm God. Though it occasionally seems a bit ambiguous, isn't the Storm God generally framed as the big baddie in their religion?

It is indeed a bit ambiguous. Damphair and his Drowned lot certainly preach against the Storm God and I suppose that as seafarers that might be understandable. However Raaf Kenning, the dying Ironborn commander at Moat Caillin had a shield bearing the arm and thunderbolt sigil of the Storm God.

I have a feeling [though I can't quote chapter and verse right now] that although the Drowned lot are on top religion-wise that may only be down to powerful family connections and they aren't universally popular.

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