Heresy 189

[Melifeather]

36 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I like the ideas that we are discussing on the fire side of the equation.  It's not something that I have focused attention as much as the Wall.  I think this will be a very interesting discussion for the bi-centennial project!

I understand that you'd like to reserve the Wall talk for the essay, but there is a connection to fire with this.

The creation of the Wall would have consumed all the cold air, snow, and ice, and as it sucked up all that cold air, warm air filled it's wake. So as the Wall was being built, that whoosh...an extreme draft, like being pulled up a chimney...imagine Westeros as the chimney with the Wall at the top pulling the cold air towards it, and the south is the base...the furnace...where the fire is. The air being drawn up the chimney brings the fire to a blaze down below. The very creation of the Wall could have caused the volcanoes in Valyria to explode.

[Lady Dyanna]

17 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I understand that you'd like to reserve the Wall talk for the essay, but there is a connection to fire with this.

The creation of the Wall would have consumed all the cold air, snow, and ice, and as it sucked up all that cold air, warm air filled it's wake. So as the Wall was being built, that whoosh...an extreme draft, like being pulled up a chimney...imagine Westeros as the chimney with the Wall at the top pulling the cold air towards it, and the south is the base...the furnace...where the fire is. The air being drawn up the chimney brings the fire to a blaze down below. The very creation of the Wall could have caused the volcanoes in Valyria to explode.

An interesting idea, but the timing is off. My first thought was that maybe it caused the volcanoes in Valyria to form rather than explode. Then I had another idea. Due to the timing maybe we should instead be looking for volcanic activity in the Shadowlands beyond Asshai? I think that whatever happened at Hardhome is more likely to be the equivalent of the Doom. 

[LynnS]

37 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I understand that you'd like to reserve the Wall talk for the essay, but there is a connection to fire with this.

The creation of the Wall would have consumed all the cold air, snow, and ice, and as it sucked up all that cold air, warm air filled it's wake. So as the Wall was being built, that whoosh...an extreme draft, like being pulled up a chimney...imagine Westeros as the chimney with the Wall at the top pulling the cold air towards it, and the south is the base...the furnace...where the fire is. The air being drawn up the chimney brings the fire to a blaze down below. The very creation of the Wall could have caused the volcanoes in Valyria to explode.

I like the ideas that are in development.  I've left a note on the chat thread at HoB&W.

[Dornish Neck Tie]

46 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

It is indeed a bit ambiguous. Damphair and his Drowned lot certainly preach against the Storm God and I suppose that as seafarers that might be understandable. However Raaf Kenning, the dying Ironborn commander at Moat Caillin had a shield bearing the arm and thunderbolt sigil of the Storm God.

I have a feeling [though I can't quote chapter and verse right now] that although the Drowned lot are on top religion-wise that may only be down to powerful family connections and they aren't universally popular.

Ooh, that's a really interesting thought. I'll go ahead and twist that into evidence of a past link between the Iron men and the ravens/old gods that is now being suppressed by the powers that be. It would also tie in well with the rumors of skinchangers among the weirdo outcasts who live on the islands way out in the Sunset Sea (The Farwynds of Lonely Light, IIRC). Perhaps the initial split was a result of a few Iron men choosing to commune with the hivemind; isolation and the passage of time have led to suspicious tales of half-seal skinchangers, where in reality there are only men with their own version of faith and maybe a couple of historical skinchangers.

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

But then again GRRM referred to it as a small but significant plot device

I agree that the disconnection between Jon and Ghost is significant, but it might not be pointing to the Wall's magic, but to the fact that Ghost belongs to the Old Gods and not Jon.

[Melifeather]

42 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

An interesting idea, but the timing is off. My first thought was that maybe it caused the volcanoes in Valyria to form rather than explode. Then I had another idea. Due to the timing maybe we should instead be looking for volcanic activity in the Shadowlands beyond Asshai? I think that whatever happened at Hardhome is more likely to be the equivalent of the Doom. 

How is the timing off? The Doom happened after the Long Night, did it not? The Valyrian Doom only happened a century before the Targaryen conquest of Westeros. I didn't mean to imply that the volcanoes erupted immediately, but over time as the fire grew hotter.

The bigger the Wall gets, the more dangerous it becomes. As it inhales and consumes the cold, the subsequent exhale brings even more cold down from the north making it stronger. If my theory about the ouroboros eating itself inside out proves correct, the Wall is exhaling and expelling. Whatever magic created it in the first place has been reversed and it has been timed with the exhale cycle of cold air. Readers have speculated that the winter storm is emanating out of Winterfell, but what if that's because there really are tunnels underground leading from the Wall to Winterfell and the cold air is being exhaled through the tunnels? If it's exiting out of Winterfell, then that is where the warding has been removed. 

[Melifeather]

51 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I like the ideas that are in development.  I've left a note on the chat thread at HoB&W.

I'll try to restrain myself until you get back. 

[Lady Dyanna]

8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

How is the timing off? The Doom happened after the Long Night, did it not? The Valyrian Doom only happened a century before the Targaryen conquest of Westeros. I didn't mean to imply that the volcanoes erupted immediately, but over time as the fire grew hotter.

It just seems like there's a lot of time between the two events. It is entirely possible that it could have taken thousands of years to build up to that kind of impact, but it seems to me that with the expenditure that would have been needed to work something as large as the wall, there would be a resultant cataclysm much sooner. But I think I get what you're saying as far as Valyria a bit better now. As long as the wall continues to do its thing, there will continue to be consequences to it. 

8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The bigger the Wall gets, the more dangerous it becomes. As it inhales and consumes the cold, the subsequent exhale brings even more cold down from the north making it stronger. If my theory about the ouroboros eating itself inside out proves correct, the Wall is exhaling and expelling. Whatever magic created it in the first place has been reversed and it has been timed with the exhale cycle of cold air. Readers have speculated that the winter storm is emanating out of Winterfell, but what if that's because there really are tunnels underground leading from the Wall to Winterfell and the cold air is being exhaled through the tunnels? If it's exiting out of Winterfell, then that is where the warding has been removed. 

Well, those tunnels are there for a reason and interestingly enough even the ground is starting to freeze at Winterfell. Was the ward held in place with there always being a Stark in Winterfell, or was it something else?

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Bran is dreaming of the Three-eyed-Crow but as he wakes up the black vision of the crow in the dream morphs into the actuallity of the Winterfell serving girl in the real world.

I think Bran actually hears a scream before the bird morphs into the serving woman.  Lyanna might call Ned's name if she could 'see' the battle in some way and Arthur Dayne was about to kill Ned.

[Black Crow]

46 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

It just seems like there's a lot of time between the two events.

Not to mention space

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

Ooh, that's a really interesting thought. I'll go ahead and twist that into evidence of a past link between the Iron men and the ravens/old gods that is now being suppressed by the powers that be. It would also tie in well with the rumors of skinchangers among the weirdo outcasts who live on the islands way out in the Sunset Sea (The Farwynds of Lonely Light, IIRC). Perhaps the initial split was a result of a few Iron men choosing to commune with the hivemind; isolation and the passage of time have led to suspicious tales of half-seal skinchangers, where in reality there are only men with their own version of faith and maybe a couple of historical skinchangers.

I agree that the crows, so hated by Damphair, might be providing a link, but I'd hesitate to suggest that the Ironborn commons are in communion with the three-fingered lot. As I say I think we need to consider the crows carefully. I don't want to pre-empt the upcoming bicentennial essay but I have my suspicions that rather than the servants of the weirwood, they may be an independent party communicating and interpreting on behalf of various players.

[Melifeather]

52 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Well, those tunnels are there for a reason and interestingly enough even the ground is starting to freeze at Winterfell. Was the ward held in place with there always being a Stark in Winterfell, or was it something else?

This is a very good thought! We should consider this as a possibility! "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" could be the ward! Well done!

[Melifeather]

54 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

It just seems like there's a lot of time between the two events. It is entirely possible that it could have taken thousands of years to build up to that kind of impact, but it seems to me that with the expenditure that would have been needed to work something as large as the wall, there would be a resultant cataclysm much sooner. But I think I get what you're saying as far as Valyria a bit better now. As long as the wall continues to do its thing, there will continue to be consequences to it. 

Natural cycles do take far, far, far longer than human cycles. No man would be able to watch and see it happening before their eyes, but over time if accurate record keeping is kept or through the examination of say ice cores or geological layers we can witness the changes that occur with the changes in climate.

[Black Crow]

46 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think Bran actually hears a scream before the bird morphs into the serving woman.  Lyanna might call Ned's name if she could 'see' the battle in some way and Arthur Dayne was about to kill Ned.

I think they were more or less simultaneous with the servant screaming because Bran was twitching and starting to wake up.

As to Lyanna, she is Ned's sister and close confidant. There is no way she is going to address him as Lord Eddard by way of warning or horror. The words Lord Eddard were articulated by Vayon Poole in waking him.

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As to Lyanna, she is Ned's sister and close confidant. There is no way she is going to address him as Lord Eddard by way of warning or horror. The words Lord Eddard were articulated by Vayon Poole in waking him

Yes, I agree that what a sleeper hears can be incorporated into a dream. Or trigger corresponding memories.  When coming out of sleep the brain waves are changing.

But if it were a mashup of memories; Bran can't call him Father.  Ned doesn't know he's talking to future Bran. He hasn't been born yet.  Ned thinks he's talking to Lyanna.  Calling him Lord Eddard would be out of character for Lyanna; but not necessarily for Bran who he sometimes thinks of as Lord Stark when he puts on his Lordly face.

A fever dream is suspect but  I think the the memory of promising Lyanna is a true memory and it fits with Ned's character to protect the children.  The pledge to protect is a prominent theme in Ned's narrative.

GoT - Bran I

He had taken off Father's face, Bran thought and donned the face of Lord Stark of Winterfell.

His lord father smiled.  "Old Nan has been telling you stories again."

Not forgetting that Walder says Hodor instead of hold the door. 

Och!  I'm going to have to look up all the references and examine them:

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

”And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

”No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice, “now it ends.” As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.”

[Dornish Neck Tie]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I agree that the crows, so hated by Damphair, might be providing a link, but I'd hesitate to suggest that the Ironborn commons are in communion with the three-fingered lot. As I say I think we need to consider the crows carefully. I don't want to pre-empt the upcoming bicentennial essay but I have my suspicions that rather than the servants of the weirwood, they may be an independent party communicating and interpreting on behalf of various players.

Yes, I believe I remember when you first mentioned the idea of the crows as players, and that has definitely colored my thinking since then. The phrasing is always difficult when discussing the skinchanging phenomena since we don't fully understand it, but I agree that the ravens and crows are far from the servants of the CotF. It seems more like they've had a long-standing symbiotic relationship in which both parties have their own free will. Though it seems that mankind's proclivity for making war has presented a tasty new sort of symbiosis to the ravens and crows.

As for the Iron Born, I'm thinking the connection would be from before the establishment of the "Iron man" identity, and only a very small minority of holdouts have remained worshipers of the old gods. There may not any sort of connection at this point even among potential Storm God worshipers, but I very strongly believe the Storm God moniker is a historical nod to the leafy Collective

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I agree that the crows, so hated by Damphair, might be providing a link, but I'd hesitate to suggest that the Ironborn commons are in communion with the three-fingered lot. As I say I think we need to consider the crows carefully. I don't want to pre-empt the upcoming bicentennial essay but I have my suspicions that rather than the servants of the weirwood, they may be an independent party communicating and interpreting on behalf of various players.

I can't tell you how curious I am about this now.  Those Molestown trees!  I recall Tyrion being chased across the Narrow Sea by the Bar Sinister and seeing the blood moon or blood eye, if you will, since he's another character watched by the moon.  His horrible two headed nightmare and coincidently Cersei's volonqar dream when she finds herself is in the dungeon.  Oddly, nothing like that for Jamie.  His wierwood stump dream seems very different to me.  Not to mention that while Cersei says he will join them when the light goes out; only Tywin and Joffrey are with Cersei appear in the dream.  A foreshadowing dream because all three are still alive at that point.  But Tommen and Myrcella are not included among the soon to be dead.  Who is fooling with Cersei's mind?

 

[Voice]

21 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

True. But what caused there eyes to appear to have lost their melanin content? Something had to have caused this to happen.

I trust Jon's instincts on this one:

 

Mormont rounded on him. “So you believe this is Mance Rayder’s work? This close to the Wall?”

“Who else, my lord?”

Jon could have told him. He knew, they all knew, yet no man of them would say the words. The Others are only a story, a tale to make children shiver. If they ever lived at all, they are gone eight thousand years. Even the thought made him feel foolish; he was a man grown now, a black brother of the Night’s Watch, not the boy who’d once sat at Old Nan’s feet with Bran and Robb and Arya.

 

And a few paragraphs later:

 

Ghost ran with them for a time and then vanished among the trees. Without the direwolf, Jon felt almost naked. He found himself glancing at every shadow with unease. Unbidden, he thought back on the tales that Old Nan used to tell them, when he was a boy at Winterfell. He could almost hear her voice again, and the click-click-click of her needles. In that darkness, the Others came riding, she used to say, dropping her voice lower and lower. Cold and dead they were, and they hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every living creature with hot blood in its veins. Holdfasts and cities and kingdoms of men all fell before them, as they moved south on pale dead horses, leading hosts of the slain. They fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children...

 

Seems clear they were set upon by the cold the Others wield, whether it was blade or mist.

 

 

21 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Did that something come through the wall with Othor and Jafer, or maybe better said, hidden within Othor and Jafer, only coming out to play once darkness had fallen.

Sure. But this gets us back to the autonomy discussion.

If they rose of their own volition, or a power they themselves possessed in their corpse-state, then that means they are autonomous.

I do not think they are. They certainly might be, but I think the signs are pointing in the other direction on this one.

 

21 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Actually we don't know when Ohtor and Jafer rose.  We only know when they chose to attack.

We know that they were taken to dark cells, and that the day was already overcast. No sunlight fell upon them, yet they did not rise when they were placed in the cells.

 

21 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

We have no direct knowledge that they were in fact animated at a strategic point in time.  It may well be the fact that they were animated right after sunset, but chose to wait until a more strategic time in order to begin their attack.

Hence my point. Rather than attack blindly, one attempted to sneak past Jon and enter Jeor's bedchamber.

Unless you believe they are capable of formulating strategies on their own, this suggests that an intelligence coordinated their movements.

By the time we get to this chapter in AGOT, it is the second time we've seen such an attack. In the prologue, Will stayed in his tree a long time after Waymar Royce was butchered. He eventually composed himself, climbed down the tree, and examined Waymar's shattered sword. Then, Waymar Royce stood over him and wrapped his hands about Will's throat.

Such a tactic displays an intellect Waymar would no longer have had, and a cold vengeance that does not seem like Waymar's own.

We see it again at the Fist. We see it again as Gilly and Sam are rescued by Coldhands. We see it again when Bran and company are approaching Bloodraven's cave.

The wights south of the Wall were just as capable as wights north of the Wall.

 

21 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Actually it's quite possible that the brothers of the night watch did. It just worked in reverse.  In Mel's case Davos carried both Mel (the animator) and the shadow (the weapon) through the wall.  In the case of the Night's Watch brothers they carried the entity within Othor and Jafer (the animator) and Othor and Jafer themselves (the weapons) through the wall.

Possible, but not likely imo.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Voice said:

Sure. But this gets us back to the autonomy discussion.

If they rose of their own volition, or a power they themselves possessed in their corpse-state, then that means they are autonomous.

I do not think they are. They certainly might be, but I think the signs are pointing in the other direction on this one.

Sorry to intrude on your conversation.  What if characters like Melisandre; Coldhands and the wights cannot pass the ward because they don't have the willpower to pass.  Something akin to Samwell having his lips sealed by swearing not to speak. This would mean the wall isn't a physical boundary; so much as a mental boundary. Someone can take you across but you can't force yourself across.  ie Melisandre and Coldhands.  A different kind of binding magic.

I could see this playing out in the Night's King story that he bound his brothers with strange sorceries.  Bound by the power of word; by the power of oath?  

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Sorry to intrude on your conversation.  What if characters like Melisandre; Coldhands and the wights cannot pass the ward because they don't have the willpower to pass.  Something akin to Samwell having his lips sealed by swearing not to speak. This would mean the wall isn't a physical boundary; so much as a mental boundary. Someone can take you across but you can't force yourself across.  ie Melisandre and Coldhands.  A different kind of binding magic.

I could see this playing out in the Night's King story that he bound his brothers with strange sorceries.  Bound by the power of word; by the power of oath?  

I'm not necessarily sure that willpower is the right word here, but broadly I agree. 

Mel herself clearly has no problems passing either the Wall or the walls of Storms End. The problem lay with the shadow baby, and although, obviously, she birthed it, we need to remember that it is a piece of Stannis' soul and a projection of his frustration and ultimately hatred of the Castellan.

Its the shadow baby, not Mel, who cannot pass the walls and so she needs to birth it within the walls. There is a secret entrance which allows her to do this but the requirement for Davos to take her inside is the entirely mundane one of needing a boat to get there rather than any magic preventing her.