Black Crow Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 3 hours ago, Voice said: The Last Hero's survival was not by chance. But again, I think you are casting blame in the wrong direction. The Last Hero was created by the Others. They could have killed him, but didn't. They wanted him to reach the children of the forest. Rather than believe the children waited for the opportune time to rescue him, I think the Others picked off his companions, horses, dog, and sword ever so slowly and purposefully. His world became desperation, not unlike Reek. A lone direwolf racing across an ice white field. They could have collected him whenever they wanted. But first, they wanted him to reach the children and learn their language. Once that was done, Night's Queen collected him. Three pages in 24 hours... A very timely reminder as to the shortage of greenseers at the best of times - and its also significant that the only known human ones have been drawn into the trees and are not stravaighing about doing their own thing. I disagree though as to the identification of the Last Hero with the Night's King, but otherwise, whether deliberate or not your very plausible scenario of the said Last Hero reaching the tree-huggers parallels very closely Bran's journey into the Heart of Darkness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 2 hours ago, Black Crow said: Three pages in 24 hours... A very timely reminder as to the shortage of greenseers at the best of times - and its also significant that the only known human ones have been drawn into the trees and are not stravaighing about doing their own thing. I disagree though as to the identification of the Last Hero with the Night's King, but otherwise, whether deliberate or not your very plausible scenario of the said Last Hero reaching the tree-huggers parallels very closely Bran's journey into the Heart of Darkness Not sure about the bolded part. In the Dunk and Egg tales, BR is moving freely at the time that he is called a dreamer and a wizard and people talk about him having a thousand eyes. Then Coldhands calls BR "A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." and Leaf, BR and Bran keep repeating the association between a greenseer and a thousand eyes. So it seems that BR was a greenseer long before he dissapeared beyond the wall and went into the trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Tucu said: So it seems that BR was a greenseer long before he dissapeared beyond the wall and went into the trees. I agree with this, at least I believe the ability was inherent in him. He was a skinchanger. He used ravens as his hosts and spied on the realm through them. Using ravens to spy helped him to always be in the right place at just the right time to protect the Targaryen rule from Blackfyres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 If the Wall and Watch were created after the long Night, I agree NK could not have created the WW. But the wall seems to be for more, and could be older. Direwolves, giants and Children are all only on the north side. What if the wall predates the Long Night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 11 hours ago, Voice said: You seem to be assuming that all cotf can see everything. This is of course not the case: Actually i'm not assuming they can see everything.I'm saying that the moment TLH and his companions entered the forest they saw him.So,at given what was going on in the environment at the tme...you know with humans getting their asses kicked...Oh they had eyes in the deadlands and the barrenlands.They have the means via their greenseers to see what was happening and could have offered help at anytime before all but one member of the party remained. 11 hours ago, Voice said: I actually agree with you in part though. The Last Hero's survival was not by chance. But again, I think you are casting blame in the wrong direction. The Last Hero was created by the Others. They could have killed him, but didn't. They wanted him to reach the children of the forest. Rather than believe the children waited for the opportune time to rescue him, I think the Others picked off his companions, horses, dog, and sword ever so slowly and purposefully. His world became desperation, not unlike Reek. A lone direwolf racing across an ice white field. They could have collected him whenever they wanted. But first, they wanted him to reach the children and learn their language. Once that was done, Night's Queen collected him. Nah Voice i think you are the one in the wrong on this one.We actually have a bet on this as you reminded me.So i'll restate my theory on this.Your "Ancient Others" the ones riding Ice spiders who could ride Ice Mammoths and Icy Krakens or whatever they choose;will end up being boogeymen manifestations of a collective of greenseers.So far they have run a perfect game,no one knows they are back because Jon hasn't told anyone about the trees having eyes again.Their whole point has been operating in the dark where no one can see them.No one will ever know its them because they give the good old people of Westeros Monsters they can see thus giving themselves the best defense they can give.....Anonymity I do not separate the COTF from the greenseers because it is made clear in the series and in the WB that the greenseers were the wise men and the Shamans of the COTF.This all starts and ends with them. The whole the Others wanted him to find the COTF and learn their language and them be picked up is uneccessary. the greenseers created what Westerosi inhabitants call the Others to conceal their precence and involvemt.If no one knows they are involve then the casualty they suffered the last time is unlikely to happen again.They doubled that by making the followers of R'hollor believe that they are really dealing with R'hollor.Unique and powerful skinchangers masquarading as gods. Another resounding theme taught to Bran by the BTB collective and summed up nicley with Littlefinger's quote Quote "Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. Remember that, Sansa, when you come to play the game.” “What . . . what game?” “The only game. The game of thrones" It is worth mentioning the iron throne isn't the only throne to be had. 7 hours ago, Black Crow said: A very timely reminder as to the shortage of greenseers at the best of times - and its also significant that the only known human ones have been drawn into the trees and are not stravaighing about doing their own thing. I disagree though as to the identification of the Last Hero with the Night's King, but otherwise, whether deliberate or not your very plausible scenario of the said Last Hero reaching the tree-huggers parallels very closely Bran's journey into the Heart of Darkness Human greenseers are the only one drawn into the trees? Where did that come from? I thought they all did and that is dependent on when their physical bodies can no longer sustain. They are the wise men, the Shamans.They ARE the ones that decides what.Who are they accountable to...no one. There is evidence that greenseer collectives can operate independent of each other.Bran's crew don't have to be accountable to those on the IOF,or those in LOAW.We are in most of these cases dealing with human greenseers who are susecptible to the same internal struggles.Its just that their struggles are happening on another stage and level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 7 hours ago, Tucu said: Not sure about the bolded part. In the Dunk and Egg tales, BR is moving freely at the time that he is called a dreamer and a wizard and people talk about him having a thousand eyes. Then Coldhands calls BR "A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." and Leaf, BR and Bran keep repeating the association between a greenseer and a thousand eyes. So it seems that BR was a greenseer long before he dissapeared beyond the wall and went into the trees. The significant word in both passages is Dreamer. I'm happy with the notion that Bryn Blackwood had greendreams just as Jojen Reed did, but he didn't become a greenseer until he was fed the magic paste and hooked up to his tree by the three-fingered lot. As to powers beyond those exhibited by Jojen we have another dimension in the ravens of Raventree Hall, just as Bran later has those of Winterfell, but the transformation or evolution from greendreamer to greenseer is something that comes later and requires the tree, the paste and the three-fingered tree-huggers to administer it and then minister to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 3 hours ago, Brad Stark said: If the Wall and Watch were created after the long Night, I agree NK could not have created the WW. But the wall seems to be for more, and could be older. Direwolves, giants and Children are all only on the north side. What if the wall predates the Long Night? The Wall is certainly a magical construct and clearly implied to be evil, but while the possibilities of its pre-dating the Long Night have been discussed we really couldn't find anything to support that. My own suspicion remains that it was the building or creation of the Wall which brought about the Long Night as an unintended consequence of the magic and the blood which went into it. As to the direwolves, tree-huggers, and who knows what else being only found on the north side its pretty explicitly related that they fled up there in the face of the Andal-led pogroms subsequent to the Long Night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 4 minutes ago, Black Crow said: The Wall is certainly a magical construct and clearly implied to be evil, but while the possibilities of its pre-dating the Long Night have been discussed we really couldn't find anything to support that. My own suspicion remains that it was the building or creation of the Wall which brought about the Long Night as an unintended consequence of the magic and the blood which went into it. As to the direwolves, tree-huggers, and who knows what else being only found on the north side its pretty explicitly related that they fled up there in the face of the Andal-led pogroms subsequent to the Long Night I've seen you talk about the wall being evil and meant to ask about it before. Why do you think it's evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, Brad Stark said: I've seen you talk about the wall being evil and meant to ask about it before. Why do you think it's evil? Read the passage where Jon and Ygritte scale the Wall and note the vehemence with which she says that it is made of blood. Which, as ever, provides me with the excuse to quote Jennet Clouston: Blood built it Blood stopped the building of it And blood will bring it down, black will be its fall. Read the passage with that quotation in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 23 minutes ago, Black Crow said: The significant word in both passages is Dreamer. I'm happy with the notion that Bryn Blackwood had greendreams just as Jojen Reed did, but he didn't become a greenseer until he was fed the magic paste and hooked up to his tree by the three-fingered lot. As to powers beyond those exhibited by Jojen we have another dimension in the ravens of Raventree Hall, just as Bran later has those of Winterfell, but the transformation or evolution from greendreamer to greenseer is something that comes later and requires the tree, the paste and the three-fingered tree-huggers to administer it and then minister to him. From Dunk: "How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one. Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear" He already had powers attributed to a greenseer (special mention to the thousand eyes) as described in ADwD: "A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 4 minutes ago, Tucu said: From Dunk: "How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one. Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear" He already had powers attributed to a greenseer (special mention to the thousand eyes) as described in ADwD: "A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees" Still not going for it. These are rumours and reputation by those who feared him. He clearly has an association with ravens/crows and is a reputed skinchanger but that doesn't make him a greenseer - not until he's been fed the paste and hooked to the tree. Bran had greendreams and could skinchange, but he had to become a greenseer and he had to travel to the Heart of Darkness to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I don't think that at the time there was a need to go beyond the wall to reach the CotF; Leaf and probably other CoTF were walking the world of men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 7 minutes ago, Tucu said: I don't think that at the time there was a need to go beyond the wall to reach the CotF; Leaf and probably other CoTF were walking the world of men. Very likely, but that's not the same thing as being able to administer the paste and hook him to a tree. That had to wait until he was beyond the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 51 minutes ago, Black Crow said: The significant word in both passages is Dreamer. I'm happy with the notion that Bryn Blackwood had greendreams just as Jojen Reed did, but he didn't become a greenseer until he was fed the magic paste and hooked up to his tree by the three-fingered lot. As to powers beyond those exhibited by Jojen we have another dimension in the ravens of Raventree Hall, just as Bran later has those of Winterfell, but the transformation or evolution from greendreamer to greenseer is something that comes later and requires the tree, the paste and the three-fingered tree-huggers to administer it and then minister to him. I dunno BC, he's got a point. 1 in a thousand skinchangers is a greenseer so it seems they are one from birth. I agree that there's the necessary step of the weirwood paste to wed a greenseer to a tree, but I think greenseers are something they are born with the ability to do. 29 minutes ago, Tucu said: From Dunk: "How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one. Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear" He already had powers attributed to a greenseer (special mention to the thousand eyes) as described in ADwD: "A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees" I agree with you Tucu. Bloodraven was always a greenseer, even before he was wedded to the trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: I dunno BC, he's got a point. 1 in a thousand skinchangers is a greenseer so it seems they are one from birth. I agree that there's the necessary step of the weirwood paste to wed a greenseer to a tree, but I think greenseers are something they are born with the ability to do. Yes but until and unless they are fed the paste and wed to the tree they can't be considered a greenseer. Bran may well have been born in greenseer but he didn't become one until he travelled to the Heart of Darkness and was fed the paste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 We don't know exactly how enabling the full greenseer powers work, but I would guess that it just needs a potential greenseer, a weirwood, some weirwood acorn paste and probably some special sauce made from a blood sacrifice. The forced travel of the Last Hero and Bran doesn't look like a requirement to become a greenseer, but a form of test/indoctrination/isolation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 19 minutes ago, Tucu said: We don't know exactly how enabling the full greenseer powers work, but I would guess that it just needs a potential greenseer, a weirwood, some weirwood acorn paste and probably some special sauce made from a blood sacrifice. The forced travel of the Last Hero and Bran doesn't look like a requirement to become a greenseer, but a form of test/indoctrination/isolation. Bit of both I'd say, but essentially I'm arguing against the notion of there being a pack of human greenseers stravaighing about doing their own thing; not only are they few and far between but its all intimately bound up with the tree-huggers and their trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 11 minutes ago, Black Crow said: Bit of both I'd say, but essentially I'm arguing against the notion of there being a pack of human greenseers stravaighing about doing their own thing; not only are they few and far between but its all intimately bound up with the tree-huggers and their trees. I guess we will get confirmation of this if Bran is with Hodor when he finds his door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 I'm curious as to what form that door might take. In the book, according to Coldhands, the other entrance to the cave of skulls is a sinkhole so I'm very wary of the mummers' version. I don't recall whether its in the book or just a theory but I seem to recall that whatever happened to Hodor happened in the crypts. In that case the "door" might actually be something akin to the Black Gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirnMalidus Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 17 minutes ago, Black Crow said: I'm curious as to what form that door might take. In the book, according to Coldhands, the other entrance to the cave of skulls is a sinkhole so I'm very wary of the mummers' version. I don't recall whether its in the book or just a theory but I seem to recall that whatever happened to Hodor happened in the crypts. In that case the "door" might actually be something akin to the Black Gate. I can see it being the door to the crypt at Winterfell. Maybe Hodor is holding the door closed against some opposing force (White Walkers? Daenerys & Co.?) while John and allies (including Bran, obviously) are attempting to perform some sort of ritual in the crypt as alluded to in your theory about the crypts and their kings rising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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