Heresy 189

[Voice]

3 minutes ago, Armstark said:

Is the Black Gate really hidden? It seems counterproductive to build this unusual domed "kitchen" above the entrance if you really wanted to hide it. The only other buildings with a dome in Westeros are the CItadel and septs, so the Nightfort's kitchen was one of only two domed buildings in Westeros for millennia and most likely the first ever built in Westeros. Not the kind of building to deflect unwanted attention I think.  

Seems like the perfect kind of building to deflect attention to me -- make people look up, instead of down. And it's not like the Black Gate is sitting there in the kitchen.

According to Samwell, Bran and company would never have been able to see it if not for his guidance.

Meera, keen of vision, Bran, a warg-Stark, and Jojen of the greendreams sat there as astute as Hodor until Samwell came up from the well like some monster out of Old Nan's stories.

 

3 minutes ago, Armstark said:

I think there are many much more plausible motivations for BtB to raise the Wall.

Fair enough. I can respect that. I do tend to get rather caught up in this stuff.

Still, it should be noted that Samwell opens the gate with the old vow, rather than the modern. Thus I think whomever built the Wall was a speaker (if not the author) of the old vow, and that its existence was purposefully kept quiet. And of course, we are told the Night's King had been secretly making sacrifices to the Others, from the refuge of the Nightfort. So it isn't that great a leap to suggest he had private access to the weirwood gate.

Considering the Wall is made of ice, does not stop wights, and enables foemen to scuttle like spiders, I'll stay out on my limb. But I am open to simpler motivations. I just have trouble reconciling them with the stranger details.

 

3 minutes ago, Armstark said:

I like you theory on GQA and her scheming in the North. I agree that her actions were designed to eradicate all magical connections/potentials the Starks or the Night's Watch might have, be it the Black Gate, dIrewolves or first night bastards to sacrifice.

word.

And since we agree on her motivations, that makes one wonder what threat she felt the Nightfort presented, specifically. She didn't sleep at the HQ.

Seems like the genius-dragonqueen was intimidated by something unseen. Most folks, even Tyrion, do not feel comfortable at the Wall.

But the Starks were not like other men.

[Armstark]

12 minutes ago, Voice said:

Seems like the genius-dragonqueen was intimidated by something unseen. 

 

Snarks and Grumpkins obviously, the most unseen of the old races  

I'm off to bed, gn8.

[Voice]

32 minutes ago, Armstark said:

 

Snarks and Grumpkins obviously, the most unseen of the old races  

I'm off to bed, gn8.

 

LOL

Obviously.

[wolfmaid7]

4 hours ago, Voice said:

Yup. We're pretty much seeing the same things, but that fundamental disagreement keeps getting in the way.

I'm glad you're seeing a hierarchy in any case, and that you attribute wights to their machinations.

If only you could stop blaming the greenseers.

Man is to blame, not them.

As far as the Last Hero goes, here is all we know of the "eyes" that found him:

All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!"

And ... that's it.

No greenseers. We aren't even told they contacted him. All we are told is that they helped him, and there are a multitude of ways they might have done that. Mayhaps they sent him a direwolf. Mayhaps he found a dragonsteel sword buried in a cache, and attributed the find to the singers.

No tellin.

Always believed in a "hierarchy" just didn't call it "a hierarchy"..Lol

Voice who else you think i've been talking about but human greenseers.

Again the COTF are the go to response,its what people know best.But as we know from the same books the greenseers were the Shamans and the wise men of the COTF.

4 hours ago, Voice said:

Indeed. We agree they were were not a dense population.

I think that was the point i'm making.They existed far in the North,far in the  south.

4 hours ago, Voice said:

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

You concur that the Wall blocks the warg bond.

Thus, Othor and Jafer are not controlled by a warg bond.

You concur that the walls of Storm's End blocked Mel's shadowbinding.

Thus, Othor and Jafer are not controlled by shadowbinding.

Yes they are and no,no you miss my meaning.Or i should have beeter clarified.Nothing can happen unless both are on the same side of the Wall.Mel couldn't birth her shadow baby and it cross on its own.V6 in his upper level self.You know the one floating on the wind couldn't pass.Othor and Jaffa were already dead something was wearing their dead skin.What was inside needed to get across.The skins were transportation,protection and muscle.

[Lady Dyanna]

5 hours ago, Voice said:

We're pretty much seeing the same things

You're actually seeing the exact same things, I think. Only you've got the beginning of the story.

5 hours ago, Voice said:

If only you could stop blaming the greenseers.

And the human greenseers are the end result. Or as I suspect, humans intentionally becoming greenseers in order to achieve the desired end result.

5 hours ago, Voice said:

You concur that the Wall blocks the warg bond.

Thus, Othor and Jafer are not controlled by a warg bond.

You concur that the walls of Storm's End blocked Mel's shadowbinding.

Thus, Othor and Jafer are not controlled by shadowbinding.

Let's look at this a little bit differently...

The walls of Storms End blocked the Shadow assassin from being able to pass independently. They did not stop Davos from rowing Mel beneath the physical wall to birth the shadow.  Once the shadow was released it remained capable of carrying out its intent of murdering Ser Courtnay Penrose.

The Wall blocked Othor and Jafer from being able to pass independently.  It did not stop the brothers of the Night's Watch from carrying Other and Jafer beneath those walls. Once past the walls they remained capable of carting out their original intent of the murder of L.C. Mormont and Ser Jaremy Ryker.

[Phillip Frye]

19 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The Black Gate is no ordinary portal and we really don't know what lies on the other side of it or where that is. We get a good description of the approach and the magic on the Night Fort side, but have nothing about what's beyond. Presumably the other entrance is hidden by the same magic which conceals the one in the well, but what form it takes and how far beyond the Wall it might be... nothing.

What I'm suggesting is a similar magic back entrance to Winterfell.

I dunno.  I can't think of a more important door to hold than the Black Gate, especially once the Army of the Damned make it to prime time.

[Voice]

4 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Always believed in a "hierarchy" just didn't call it "a hierarchy"..Lol

LOL cool.

I only brought it up because I remember a time when you believed the ww's/Others were not associated with the wights.

And, even today, I can see how one could make that case. Always thought it was a unique and interesting spin on things, even if I was seeing hierarchy at play.

 

4 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Voice who else you think i've been talking about but human greenseers.

So human greenseers conjured the Others to kill humans? That seems a self-defeating purpose.

 

4 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Again the COTF are the go to response,its what people know best.But as we know from the same books the greenseers were the Shamans and the wise men of the COTF.

I think that was the point i'm making.They existed far in the North,far in the  south.

Yes they are and no,no you miss my meaning.Or i should have beeter clarified.Nothing can happen unless both are on the same side of the Wall.Mel couldn't birth her shadow baby and it cross on its own.V6 in his upper level self.You know the one floating on the wind couldn't pass.Othor and Jaffa were already dead something was wearing their dead skin.What was inside needed to get across.The skins were transportation,protection and muscle.

Ah. Well if you believe Othor and Jafer were inhabited as they passed through the Wall, then I understand why our wires are getting crossed.

I don't see wights as autonomous.

I see them as controlled by a hive mind consciousness. Remote controlled meat puppets.

My point was that this hive mind consciousness is able to traverse the Wall.

In fact, if anything, the Wall seems to be a big conductor for the hive mind consciousness that controls the wights. Those foemen will be a-scuttling up the Wall like ice spiders any night now... hopefully. LOL

So that's why I think see the Wall as anything but a deterrent to the Others. Measly little grunts (the wights) turn into stealthy assassins on t'other side o the Wall.

Just imagine what the Others will look like in their natural habitat of Ice.

 

And hey! Did someone mention ice spiders?!

Nah, I'll save that one for another time.

 

3 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

You're actually seeing the exact same things, I think. Only you've got the beginning of the story.

And the human greenseers are the end result. Or as I suspect, humans intentionally becoming greenseers in order to achieve the desired end result.

Entirely plausible, if not likely. 

 

3 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Let's look at this a little bit differently...

The walls of Storms End blocked the Shadow assassin from being able to pass independently. They did not stop Davos from rowing Mel beneath the physical wall to birth the shadow.  Once the shadow was released it remained capable of carrying out its intent of murdering Ser Courtnay Penrose.

The Wall blocked Othor and Jafer from being able to pass independently.  It did not stop the brothers of the Night's Watch from carrying Other and Jafer beneath those walls. Once past the walls they remained capable of carting out their original intent of the murder of L.C. Mormont and Ser Jaremy Ryker.

But the brothers of the Night's Watch did not animate Othor and Jafer the way Mel animated her shadowy discharge.

If they had, I'd agree with you.

Or, if the wights demonstrated some form of autonomous independence, I'd agree with you.

But alas, I think they were controlled by an entity North of the Wall. And if they were, then that means that whatever animated them was not obstructed by the Wall.

 

1 hour ago, Phillip Frye said:

I dunno.  I can't think of a more important door to hold than the Black Gate, especially once the Army of the Damned make it to prime time.

Agreed.

The weirwood gate (Black Gate is a misnomer) opens for sworn brothers, of which Brandon is the eldest. In fact, the gate opens for his vow. There is no portal that is more important.

Hold the door! LOL

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, Armstark said:

I propose a different solution to this question: The Wall does block the magic that is controlling the wights (cold winds) but it has a flaw: the ignorant Night's Watch cut a tunnel into the ice. Not enough for large scale army-controlling but certainly enough for a small operation near the tunnel like with Jafer and Othor. There is a reason the Black Gate is underground.

So basically you're suggesting that the magic is in the ice itself and so long as nobody [eldrich] touches it they can pass?

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Phillip Frye said:

I dunno.  I can't think of a more important door to hold than the Black Gate, especially once the Army of the Damned make it to prime time.

I'm talking about the nature of the portal, rather than its relative importance in the scheme of things. Nevertheless, as I said, my understanding is that the boy Walder ventured into the Winterfell crypts one day and came out as young Hodor. 

[Armstark]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

So basically you're suggesting that the magic is in the ice itself and so long as nobody [eldrich] touches it they can pass?

No, not exactly.  Wights can't pass whether they touch the ice or not, which is why Jafer and Othor had to be carried through the ice.

But yes, the magic is in the ice and it's primary purpose is to block the cold winds that are animating and controlling the wights, otherwise one could just raise armies of the dead on the other side and the Wall would do nothing. But the tunnel through the ice allows small amounts of cold winds to pass, just enough to control and animate a small amount of wights on the other side.

 

The chapter in question is full of references to the cold wind rising:

 

Quote

It was warm. Too warm. The Wall was weeping copiously, had been weeping for days, and sometimes Jon even imagined it was shrinking.
The old men called this weather spirit summer, and said it meant the season was giving up its ghosts at last. After this the cold would come, they warned, and a long summer always meant a long winter.

 

Quote

The wind was rising, and it seemed colder in the yard than it had when he’d gone in. Spirit summer was drawing to an end.

 

Quote

A north wind had begun to blow by the time the sun went down. Jon could hear it skirling against the Wall and over the icy battlements as he went to the common hall for the evening meal.

 

 

Quote

The flame flickered and swayed, the shadows moved around him, the room seemed to grow darker and colder. [...] Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold?

 

 

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Armstark said:

No, not exactly.  Wights can't pass whether they touch the ice or not, which is why Jafer and Othor had to be carried through the ice.

Same difference; they couldn't walk through because their feet would have been touching the ice of the floor. 

[Black Crow]

On 7/24/2016 at 3:43 AM, Lady Dyanna said:

And the human greenseers are the end result. Or as I suspect, humans intentionally becoming greenseers in order to achieve the desired end result.

Nah I'm still not going with this human greenseers business. As I said the native-born variety are thin enough on the ground without bringing men into it, especially when the only ones we know of are with the tree-huggers and in the case of Bloodraven hanging on only long enough to pass the job on to his lone successor rather than organising a convention.

The problem with the white walkers I'm sure, is that they are that all too familiar phenomenon of allies who committed themselves too deeply to go back, only to be cast aside when they were no longer needed. Now they are back to try and reclaim what was once their as men and if they have an issue with the tree-huggers as well then it is revenge for their betrayal.

[Arry'sFleas]

On 21/07/2016 at 3:55 AM, Black Crow said:

There's no reason at all to equate the Andals with the "inhuman Others" - GRRM's description of them. They are the others precisely because they are inhuman and encompass the walkers as well as the other old races.

The Others are always capitalised in the books, is there a reason for this? neither the children nor the northmen are capitalised and the wildlings only sometimes.

Btw, the dear Ralph letter has ' the inhuman others', no capital.

 

[Arry'sFleas]

On 21/07/2016 at 8:05 AM, Voice said:

The Pact, as we know it, mentions nothing of the slaughter of cotf. The Pact forbade the butcher of the weirwood trees, and them alone

true, but - apparently - the children  were somewhat cornered by the stronger FM.

What i think is not said is what else did they have to give to sweeten the deal with the First Men so that they could actually prevent complete rout.

The persuasion of 'the wise of both races'?

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Arry'sFleas said:

The Others are always capitalised in the books, is there a reason for this? neither the children nor the northmen are capitalised and the wildlings only sometimes.

Btw, the dear Ralph letter has ' the inhuman others', no capital.

 

I'm doubtful whether it has any more significance than a bit of dodgy grammar. What I do find telling is the phrase "inhuman others" in the synopsis and the Warg King's "inhuman allies" [the children] in the World Book

[Arry'sFleas]

On 23/07/2016 at 7:49 AM, Voice said:

We do not know anyone was able to "see" the Last Hero until he was rescued

me-thinks a green deamer was sent after him, but in the doom and gloom of the occasion, it may have taken sometime for them to find each other, even even more time to reach destination.

Just like Jojen was sent to find Bran and take him north of the wall.

 

On 22/07/2016 at 3:06 AM, Feather Crystal said:

I dunno BC, he's got a point. 1 in a thousand skinchangers is a greenseer so it seems they are one from birth. I agree that there's the necessary step of the weirwood paste to wed a greenseer to a tree, but I think greenseers are something they are born with the ability to do.

yes, absolutely

"Your blood makes you a greenseer," said Lord Brynden.

 

On 22/07/2016 at 3:10 PM, Voice said:

Shagga has no glass candle, and if he did, he likely fed it to his goat.

you really have no mercy! even for the goats!

 

On 24/07/2016 at 0:43 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

The Wall blocked Othor and Jafer from being able to pass independently.

we don't know that really, they never had the opportunity; they were picked up whilst in their day-time mode. So who knows, if Ghost had not found them, if they would not have been able to get through or even over in their night-time mode.

 

[Arry'sFleas]

20 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'm doubtful whether it has any more significance than a bit of dodgy grammar. What I do find telling is the phrase "inhuman others" in the synopsis and the Warg King's "inhuman allies" [the children] in the World Book

 

it can be dodgy grammar. although my question was more on the point as to why the Others deserve a capital 'O'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lady Dyanna]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Nah I'm still not going with this human greenseers business. As I said the native-born variety are thin enough on the ground without bringing men into it, especially when the only ones we know of are with the tree-huggers and in the case of Bloodraven hanging on only long enough to pass the job on to his lone successor rather than organising a convention.

The problem with the white walkers I'm sure, is that they are that all too familiar phenomenon of allies who committed themselves too deeply to go back, only to be cast aside when they were no longer needed. Now they are back to try and reclaim what was once their as men and if they have an issue with the tree-huggers as well then it is revenge for their betrayal.

This could very well be, however, it seems short sighted to judge greenseers and their actions throughout time based entirely upon the limited window we have been given at this point in the series.  At this point we haven't even seen a CotF greenseer other than to guess that those half dead creatures Bran/Hodor found in the cave are them. We also don't know that this cave is the only place that they would be located.  Point being, we just don't know and our knowledge in this area seems to have been purposefully limited. Why?

 

1 hour ago, Arry'sFleas said:

we don't know that really, they never had the opportunity; they were picked up whilst in their day-time mode. So who knows, if Ghost had not found them, if they would not have been able to get through or even over in their night-time mode.

True.  We don't know for sure.  A lot of this is just guess work.  However, I think that it stands to reason, that if wights could cross over the wall without difficulty, we would have at least seen an attempt from them to do so by now.

[Lady Dyanna]

On ‎7‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 2:07 AM, Voice said:

But the brothers of the Night's Watch did not animate Othor and Jafer the way Mel animated her shadowy discharge.

If they had, I'd agree with you.

Or, if the wights demonstrated some form of autonomous independence, I'd agree with you.

But alas, I think they were controlled by an entity North of the Wall. And if they were, then that means that whatever animated them was not obstructed by the Wall.

I guess it depends upon how you look at it. Othor and Jafer already had blue eyes prior to being taken through the wall. Have we ever seen a wight operate in daylight before or do they go into  some sort of slumber only to come out at night? And lest we compare apples to oranges, to me it seems a better comparison to equate Davos with the Night's Watch brothers.  Both carried something through the wall, but neither animated it.

[wolfmaid7]

On 7/23/2016 at 11:07 PM, Voice said:

So human greenseers conjured the Others to kill humans? That seems a self-defeating purpose.

Why not humans kill humans everyday in ASOIAF and that's humans not so enmeshed with a collective.All they "need" or "think" they need is ba reason to do say be it

1.Revenge

2.A just cause

3.A the needs of the many,outweigh the needs of the few.......Or the one;type of philosophy

4."I" am become the gods 

Any of these ideologies can lead to the result of hem killing humans . But i think you are ignoring some elements that may be of improtance here. How do these human greenseers see themselves? Are they wholly,soley human? They are part of a collective after all so how does that play? Voice you read the series so why feint not understanding what it could mean for a human greenseer being part of a collective?

On 7/23/2016 at 11:07 PM, Voice said:

Ah. Well if you believe Othor and Jafer were inhabited as they passed through the Wall, then I understand why our wires are getting crossed.

I don't see wights as autonomous.

I see them as controlled by a hive mind consciousness. Remote controlled meat puppets.

My point was that this hive mind consciousness is able to traverse the Wall.

I'm not saying they are autonomous.If they are just husks then they can be used in what ever capacity suits the purpose of the puppeteer.The point i was making is highlighting that the shadowbaby on its own and in its form can't cross Storm's end.Had Melissandre birth Stannis Jr outside the walls he couldn't pass. Likewise,the Wights and the greenseer(s) that control them.The Wghts are familiars they have already been touched, marked as skins.Thus giving their proxy(ies) the ability to use them.Proxy(ies) are Skinchangers they cannot reach their skins once they cross the Wall.They themselves cannot pull a disembodied V6 move on the wind and pass the Wall.In that manner they are just like Mel's baby...A shadow on the wind and so cannot pass.So, hitch a ride in one of your suits and get pass the threshold which is exactly what happened.

They made it pass the Wall,then once the Cold winds began to rise...Boom.They have their ride again.

 

On 7/24/2016 at 3:38 AM, Armstark said:

No, not exactly.  Wights can't pass whether they touch the ice or not, which is why Jafer and Othor had to be carried through the ice.

But yes, the magic is in the ice and it's primary purpose is to block the cold winds that are animating and controlling the wights, otherwise one could just raise armies of the dead on the other side and the Wall would do nothing. But the tunnel through the ice allows small amounts of cold winds to pass, just enough to control and animate a small amount of wights on the other side.

 

The chapter in question is full of references to the cold wind rising:

Agree with this.

22 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Same difference; they couldn't walk through because their feet would have been touching the ice of the floor. 

Once they got through and rose they were walking just find.However,i think the main purpose was to get past the Wall deposit their payroll and wait for the oppurtune moments.