Lady Sansa Clegane

[ThePukwudgie]

9 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Here is what you wrote:

Certainly there is no mention of tropes as being the distinguishing factor. That's might what you meant. But, it's not what you wrote. 

Now, here is a question: Was the Stark's beating the Bolton's a trope? The trope of the good guys beating the bad guys. And if so, your prediction was what?

Is the story of an exiled princess returning to her homeland a trope? Why or why not? And if so, your prediction was what?

I don't make predictions for every damn thing dude . . . .

Yes, those are tropes, but GRRM, and by extension D&D have already trained the audience to expect the worst. By giving us a happy result, they defied our trained expectations.

And yes, I acknowledge that this essentially makes the writers unpredictable, so my trying to predict them defying the expectations of a BatB story is futile, but that same line of reasoning applies to EVERYONE ELSE.

And that's my point. The set-up could be typical for literature in general, or it could be typical for GoT only, which is atypical to begin with.

[OldGimletEye]

4 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

I don't make predictions for every damn thing dude . . . .

Yes, those are tropes, but GRRM, and by extension D&D have already trained the audience to expect the worst. By giving us a happy result, they defied our trained expectations.

And yes, I acknowledge that this essentially makes the writers unpredictable, so my trying to predict them defying the expectations of a BatB story is futile, but that same line of reasoning applies to EVERYONE ELSE.

And that's my point. The set-up could be typical for literature in general, or it could be typical for GoT only, which is atypical to begin with.

I'm just trying to understand the basic thought process here.

It seems the question here was: Does GRRM always subvert expectations, or more specifically, does he always subvert those expectations that allegedly are "tropes". The answer seems to be "no". And if it is no, then certainly SanSan can't be ruled out merely because allegedly it's a "trope".

And then there is the question of whether SanSan is a "trope".

[ThePukwudgie]

16 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I'm just trying to understand the basic thought process here.

It seems the question here was: Does GRRM always subvert expectations, or more specifically, does he always subvert those expectations that allegedly are "tropes". The answer seems to be "no". And if it is no, then certainly SanSan can't be ruled out merely because allegedly it's a "trope".

And then there is the question of whether SanSan is a "trope".

BatB is a trope(by this point). Anything that's been done multiple times throughout literature, or anything involving a narrative, is a trope.

[OldGimletEye]

1 hour ago, ThePukwudgie said:

The last paragraph is nothing more than spinning wheels. These arguments in favor of SanSan are just so weak. They can easily be brushed off as desperate shipper misinterpretation.

But, you seemingly endorse the theory that GRRM is being a troll here,isn't that right? But in order to do this trolling convincingly wouldn't he have to make it look like SanSan might be a thing in order to pull the trolling off?

Or is the answer here GRRM is trolling, but just not doing a very good job at it?

The answer is what?

Anyone?

Bueller?

[OldGimletEye]

8 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

BatB is a trope(by this point). Anything that's been done multiple times throughout literature, or anything involving a narrative, is a trope.

But, supposing GRRM switches up the BatB story a bit. Still a trope? Supposing the beast here never ends up being a handsome prince. Supposing he remains scarred for life. Still a trope?

And if Sansa being with Sandor is a trope, couldn't a case be made that anyone that Sansa might be with would be a "trope"? I guess we can rule Jon/Sansa out on the grounds that the old "boy likes girl, girl likes boy" thing is a "trope".

And then of course, I think we've established here that even if something is allegedly a "trope" it isn't exactly a great predictor of what will happen.

[Le Cygne]

48 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

<snip>

Thanks! Yeah, she is expressing a canon preference for him, lots of obvious hints in the show, too. Like GRRM said, there's something there, books and show. I think the audience will like seeing the rest of their story! J/B, too.

[Le Cygne]

A Jon and Sansa shipper (and there are a bunch of Jon and Sansa shippers on this thread) just called those acknowledging a canon romance "desperate shippers" in an ad hominem attack... Look in the mirror.

[Le Cygne]

18 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

But, you seemingly endorse the theory that GRRM is being a troll here,isn't that right? But in order to do this trolling convincingly wouldn't he have to make it look like SanSan might be a thing in order to pull the trolling off?

Or is the answer here GRRM is trolling, but just not doing a very good job at it?

The answer is what?

Anyone?

Bueller?

Quite the conundrum, eh? Which is it?

He spends all this time, since the first book where he gives the Hound the Beast's lines, telling a Beauty and the Beast story for Sansa and the Hound in great detail... He's got everything worked out, all the symbolism, the father, the rose, the beast, over and over and over again... Sansa pretends she kissed Sandor, dreams of him in bed with her, places him in the marriage bed, and much more... He even directly parallels their story with his favorite version of Beauty and the Beast in the show scene he writes... 

And yet... we are not supposed to think any of this matters! But if we don't think it matters, then he's not pulling it off, is he?

Seems like he's rather wasting a lot of time here. Maybe, just maybe, he's just telling a story! And we are meant to read it as such.

[ThePukwudgie]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

But, you seemingly endorse the theory that GRRM is being a troll here,isn't that right? But in order to do this trolling convincingly wouldn't he have to make it look like SanSan might be a thing in order to pull the trolling off?

Or is the answer here GRRM is trolling, but just not doing a very good job at it?

The answer is what?

Anyone?

Bueller?

I have no idea what you're trying to say. Yes, in order for a punchline to have effect, a setup would need to precede it. Also, 'trolling' was never my choice of wording.

[OldGimletEye]

2 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

I have no idea what you're trying to say. Yes, in order for a punchline to have effect, a setup would need to precede it. Also, 'trolling' was never my choice of wording.

Okay, glad to have gotten that admission. So is it fair to say that SanSan isn't something that got pulled out of thin air? Like there is actually support for it, even if you believe it won't happen.

I suppose the only question here is whether SanSan is a "trope" and whether that trope will be subverted. Of course, again,as we've concluded the fact something allegedly is a trope doesn't automatically mean that it will be subverted.

[mormont]

[mod] Let's keep it polite, on-topic, and non-personal please, people. [/mod]

[Karmarni]

First off, I think GRRM is writing a fantasy novel series. I think D&D are running a fantasy television show. Just getting that out there, since this thread has become rather focused on specifics, and particularly, specific mechanisms of storytelling. 

Now, D&D are doing an adaptation of said fantasy novel series and they have their agenda. I think with 6 seasons under my belt, that I can come away with a general idea of where they are going, and a few ideas, based on tv viewing in general, and film analysis in particular, that indicate how they might do this.

For one, the show has continued to follow the general outline of the novels, with the exception that Sansa Stark's story has been a "bold departure" from her Vale storyline and has transported her to Winterfell to take on various storylines there, in particular that of her best friend, Jeyne Poole. Since the show didn't make much of their friendship, D&D decided in Season 2 to use Sansa in her role. Jeyne gets saved by the Hound from the destruction of the Stark household and brought to Sansa and then Cersei, aghast that this has occurred, gives her to Littlefinger to get rid of her. Littlefinger and his establishments (brothels) 'teaches' her the arts of seduction, eventually having her 'sold' off to Ramsay Bolton as Arya Stark. OK, that's the book story. In the show since Littlefinger is doing the same thing with Sansa Stark, after he sets her up for involvement in killing Joffrey, he convinces her to 'sell' herself to Ramsay Bolton for 'revenge.' Now that's a weak argument, and one that only flies because that's the way the show decided to deal with getting Sansa to Winterfell in the role of fakeArya. Pick it apart, and it makes zero since that either show Littlefinger or show Sansa would ever consider this a good idea. It was moving the pieces on the chess board so that certain plot points would be hit. 

GRRM is writing his largest work, and he has taken the novels to a vast world that he has built. In that world, there are thousands of named characters, places, and events that transpired before the timeframe set out in the novels. That he would use literary devices to tell his story is a given to me. He's a writer, that's what he does. So given that GRRM, as a writer, falls into both fantasy and science fiction, that he deals in terms of great and small truths, lies, the idea of solitary existence versus family, friends and loves, that, overall he likes the idea of Romanticism and portrays it, in all facets of its glory, it is easy to see that within this multitude of stories going on that there are many references to both his past works, his television career, his sojourn at teaching creative writing, his own personal tastes, his political views, etc. etc.

And so, yes, for heaven's sake, there can be more than one Beauty and the Beast story! There are hundreds of small stories that build on various devices, and have little moments of their own, and stand within and outside of the mainframe plot of the story.

On to the tv show. It's telling the mainframe story, through it's own medium and it has the luxury of picking and choosing, combining and re-combining, filling in parts that weren't there in the novel series, and creating wholesale parts that they think help move their plot along. For what it's worth, I stand with those who would have liked to have seen a more faithful adaptation and not all this hogwash, for instance, their stupid jokes, insider backslapping, and re-imagining of iconic scenes (think 'your sister' and not 'only Cat'). 

However, I think the show is ultimately sticking to keeping the bare bones framework of the story. Some characters get shifted around, and most importantly, Sansa was one of them. It would be nice sometime to have D&D give their explanation of why the did what the did, because, in my opinion, they have gutted the character. She's all over the map. She makes little sense, even in their own show story. Her actions, her motivations, her characterization makes little sense. And yet they carry on with it. 

Now that we are outside the published novels, there is only speculation (cue Homer Simpson, like 'duh'). So what we have to go on is our own experience with the novels and with the show and with our complete or incomplete, as the case may be, experience and ability with analyzing both literary works and film.

It is apparent to me that the Hound lived in the novels. It was apparent to me that he would return to the show. It is also apparent to me that Sandor does have a purpose to the main beat of the story. He has been built from the first novel / first season, as a rogue, as someone outside the system. His character stands in a long tradition of the Byronic anti-hero. He makes little sense otherwise. It's who he is. Call that a trope if you want to, but using 'trope' and throwing it around, and saying that GRRM does or doesn't use them is useless verbiage. Yeah, he uses literary devices, all writers do! Even the show writers. And they have been playing their Beauty and the Beast cards too. With both the inverted characters of Jaime and Brienne and with the straight-up version of Sansa and the Hound. There's even the sister (remember the sisters in the original story?) who doesn't like the Beast. Sure, GRRM will want to make these his own, any writer would. (Look at how it plays out between Sandor and Arya, books versus show. That in and of itself is a great touchstone of just what the show did as an adaptation of the novels.) But you try to hide the wheels spinning, the structure at work. You want surprises. And it's surprising that Sansa Stark is more than a little interested in Sandor Clegane. In the novels. In the show, they seem to have done their version of creating Sandor and Sansa's differences, highlighting them, while giving play to the notion of Littlefinger vs. the Hound (see LF's Season 2 deleted scene), along with LF knowing the secret behind the Hound's fear of fire, and the Hound knowing about what LF did to Ned with the gold cloaks, add that all up, and we've got a rivalry.

In my opinion, Sansa Stark is not going to be a queen. She doesn't have the makings for it. The novels have built on no leadership abilities for her. Scheming, yes. But not leadership. That belongs to Dany and to Jon. The novels have built on Sansa's misremembered kiss, the one she ends up 'giving' to the Hound in her own mind. That kiss is important to the novels. Apply that to where the show is going, though they didn't go with their initial filmed version of the Blackwater scene with her song to him. Why? Instead the show changed Blackwater to allow the Hound to look like, to be, the true knight. Different medium, quicker to the point. The books had the build-up, the show highlighted his need to have Sansa 'look' at him, the killer. The show gave Littlefinger some of the Hound's iconic lines. Why? I sure don't think the novels are building up to Sansa marrying Littlefinger and being his queen. Most book readers think, overwhelmingly, that Sansa will kill Littlefinger. I do. Sansa, the killer. She already is on the show.

But the show has yet to truly identify what Sansa wants. It keeps skipping away from that. Mainly, I believe, because this isn't really her story yet. She's been a vehicle for them to play off other actors, especially Drinkledge, Gillen, Allen, and Harrington. Only the Hound and Littlefinger exist as her main 'cast' in the novels. 

So what gives? The show has set-up the rivalry between the power hungry Littlefinger and the Hound, who ever increasingly resembles the true, albeit dark, knight. I still see show Sansa killing Littlefinger. It will take some device to get her there though. Who is that, if not the Hound, he the no bullshit, take no prisoners, sharp steel killer. But Sandor is also a protector. And he has been shown to have feelings for Sansa. 

The plot wheel turns. The show has laid its parallels between Sansa and Sandor. That they share similar viewpoints in the end seems inevitable now. Does that mean she becomes Sansa Clegane? Well, I wouldn't say no outright. In fact, the argument for it, based on applying book knowledge to the show, seems strong. The books are still playing with the basic outline of Beauty and the Beast. The show has been using, of all things, Disney-fied Beauty and the Beast references. This, in a show full of dark terrors seems ironically funny to me.

And so I don't think the motif is overdone. All that has ever been done in literature, in film, is regurgitation at this point anyway. Writers play with what appeals to them. All the stories are really "stories as old as time."

This is a fantasy story with dragons and magic, and those are certainly tried and true devices, I'd say.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Darksky said:

Why would Martin have two cliches of the same kind in his story? Jaime x Brienne and Sansa x Sandor as BatB, Isn't that overkill? Isn't he known for not being a predictable trope lover? Or maybe his trope breaking prowess is just greatly exaggerated. He is not an innovative, creative writer. Fancy that.

So yeah on that belief, I say he'd totally have two BatB instances in his story.

He has several beast-beauty storylines set up in the books... The beasts/bears/dogs set off against maidens/handsome men. Not all go well though.

Sansa-Sandor, Jaime-Brienne, Jorah-Dany, Genry-Arya  => There's ALWAYS a bear.

[Grizzly A Mormont]

6 hours ago, Darksky said:

If Sansa is set to end up in a position of power, then her having anything to do with Sandor, in that sense, would just be a hindrance. He offers nothing of benefit to her.  He's way beneath her station, unsightly, way older, he has no fortune, no army, he is known as a vicious child murderer, a former lapdog of Joffrey's and a coward who abandoned his King he swore his loyalty and sword to because of a bit of fire. That makes him unreliable, his word means little. She can keep him as her secret lover though if it came out she'd be ruined. If she were to officially marry him, she'd have to forefeit her status as Lady Stark and any higher position she could occupy.

That part I agree with most. House Clegane is such a minor house in cannot even have a Lord, only a Knight. The most Sandor could ever become is a Knight or Guardian, similiar to that of Brienne of Tarth. 

 

My prediction is that, if Jon does not marry Daenerys out of duty, he may marry Sansa out of love, if he discovers he is not Eddard Starks bastard son. 

[Meera of Tarth]

23 minutes ago, Grizzly A Mormont said:

That part I agree with most. House Clegane is such a minor house in cannot even have a Lord, only a Knight. The most Sandor could ever become is a Knight or Guardian, similiar to that of Brienne of Tarth. 

 

My prediction is that, if Jon does not marry Daenerys out of duty, he may marry Sansa out of love, if he discovers he is not Eddard Starks bastard son. 

I agree that Clegane's are a minor house, but they still are a house, so he could be Lord of his House if The Mountain dies.

As for Brienne....she will inherit an island, it's not minor at all.

[Le Cygne]

16 hours ago, Karmarni said:

GRRM is writing his largest work, and he has taken the novels to a vast world that he has built. In that world, there are thousands of named characters, places, and events that transpired before the timeframe set out in the novels. That he would use literary devices to tell his story is a given to me. He's a writer, that's what he does. So given that GRRM, as a writer, falls into both fantasy and science fiction, that he deals in terms of great and small truths, lies, the idea of solitary existence versus family, friends and loves, that, overall he likes the idea of Romanticism and portrays it, in all facets of its glory, it is easy to see that within this multitude of stories going on that there are many references to both his past works, his television career, his sojourn at teaching creative writing, his own personal tastes, his political views, etc. etc.

And so, yes, for heaven's sake, there can be more than one Beauty and the Beast story! There are hundreds of small stories that build on various devices, and have little moments of their own, and stand within and outside of the mainframe plot of the story...

Call that a trope if you want to, but using 'trope' and throwing it around, and saying that GRRM does or doesn't use them is useless verbiage. Yeah, he uses literary devices, all writers do! Even the show writers. And they have been playing their Beauty and the Beast cards too.

Yes, the author is writing this book series as serious literature, and the showrunners come from a similar academic background. There's a wealth of complexity in a story like this, and that quite simply cannot be dismissed. A reader or viewer's preferences have absolutely no bearing on the story itself, so discussion of other readers or viewers is irrelevant, and most unwelcome. Reducing literature to a predictable yet not predictable formula (and as you noted, "trope" is useless verbiage) is dismissing the story itself, and the story is all that matters. And when showrunners adapting a story clarify their intentions with commentary, that should not be dismissed. And as you noted, yes, they have been playing the Beauty and the Beast card, too. It's a classic romantic framework, used in many classic romances. And they are quite obviously using it here, as the author did. This is paying homage to the classics, and that's a literary tradition, too.

Quote

So what gives? The show has set-up the rivalry between the power hungry Littlefinger and the Hound, who ever increasingly resembles the true, albeit dark, knight. I still see show Sansa killing Littlefinger. It will take some device to get her there though. Who is that, if not the Hound, he the no bullshit, take no prisoners, sharp steel killer. But Sandor is also a protector. And he has been shown to have feelings for Sansa...

The plot wheel turns. The show has laid its parallels between Sansa and Sandor. That they share similar viewpoints in the end seems inevitable now. Does that mean she becomes Sansa Clegane? Well, I wouldn't say no outright. In fact, the argument for it, based on applying book knowledge to the show, seems strong. The books are still playing with the basic outline of Beauty and the Beast. The show has been using, of all things, Disney-fied Beauty and the Beast references. This, in a show full of dark terrors seems ironically funny to me.

And so I don't think the motif is overdone. All that has ever been done in literature, in film, is regurgitation at this point anyway. Writers play with what appeals to them. All the stories are really "stories as old as time."

This is a fantasy story with dragons and magic, and those are certainly tried and true devices, I'd say.

Indeed, there's conflict that has been established from the day Littlefinger bet against him, and Sansa said, "I knew the Hound would win." He's going to underestimate Sandor once again, and it's going to cost him. Sansa has kept her feelings for Sandor to herself, that's beautiful, but it's also going to be quite surprising. Sansa wants to choose, she's tired of others choosing for her. The classic romantic framework is there, it's the basis for the overlying story. They have messed up her story so badly, but that they've still kept going there with the Disney references is a very positive sign of their intentions with this story. They have very consistently gone there with the hints, carrying them forward from season to season. These are lighthearted moments, that signal romance. And the series does, in fact, call for romance, as the author is not at all shy of his love of romance, and of this particular classic romance; moreover, this is the stuff of life, and no story would be complete without it.

[Le Cygne]

19 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I agree that Clegane's are a minor house, but they still are a house, so he could be Lord of his House if The Mountain dies.

As for Brienne....she will inherit an island, it's not minor at all.

Also the Starks can convey lordship upon him as well.

[sweetsunray]

31 minutes ago, Grizzly A Mormont said:

That part I agree with most. House Clegane is such a minor house in cannot even have a Lord, only a Knight. The most Sandor could ever become is a Knight or Guardian, similiar to that of Brienne of Tarth.

House Clegane is a minor house, but it's a house of landed knights... which is still counted as nobility. And Knightly houses must marry just as well. And up until Sansa's grandfather the Starks were never big on "the daughter of a Warden" must only marry someone of a high house. In fact, most Stark daughters and sons married into bannermen houses of the North, where they don't even care about "knights", but a noble warrior can get landed. They've given Wolf Den to a landless exiled House of the South, with the Manderlies. House Cerwyn is some newer house, close by. In the books, the Karstark heir Alys was wedded to the Magnar of the Thenns of the wildlings. A lot has gone wrong for the Starks since Rickard set his sights on marrying his sons and daughters into High Houses. And then there's the upcoming Others invasion. Many houses will go extinct and many will die. But the land will also need to be repopulated with men who were heroes and loyal and fighting for common folk to be given lands and honors to protect the common folk. House Clegane imo will become a Northern noble house with lands, and Lord Clegane will need a bride, and Sansa looks to be willing.

[Darksky]

Secondary characters who come back after hiatus tend to end up dead. The Hound is not long for this world. He is likely to die in the Great Battle while in the service of King Jon. He is a child killer, and this is GOT, he is not getting a happily ever after. I just don't see a SanSan marriage as a viable plot development. If there's any marriage thrown in those last 13 eps, it will be Jon and Dany's political one. And even that one is not very likely to happen.

Can you imagine the outrage from the show onlies if after Joffrey, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Robin Arryn and Ramsay, she is paired up again, and with The Hound? If anything they'd want her with some comely good-natured Lord of similar age, and not a beast-like older man who wants to hack people to pieces.

[Le Cygne]

The showrunners said Sandor is a main character. And they absolved him, that's in the story. This time, she gets to choose who she wants. They sure got a positive response for their scenes together.

There's this, too:

Quote

Did the you and the showrunners, David Benioff and Dan Weiss, ever consider leaving The Hound dead?
He was always going to come back, it was just a matter of how.

Were other ideas than this explored for his return?
...Rory is such an amazing actor and the audience has such an investment in him. We realized he could anchor his own return storyline. We could cut to him and have his own mini-episode and he’d be able to hold it.

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/06/05/game-thrones-the-hound-interview