Lady Sansa Clegane

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, ThePukwudgie said:

No, only positive assertions have to be proven. This is done because negative assertions can be extremely hard, if not outright impossible to prove, and because the absence of something is self-evident by the lack of evidence proving its existence, in this case the usefulness of House Clegane. For example:

Someone asserting that dragons don't exist don't have to prove their assertion. The burden of proof is on those who disagree.

I knew you would make that argument. And I purposefully opened the door for you beforehand to walk right in.

You are correct that it is almost impossible to prove a negative, and therefore the positive claim must provide arguments. That said you are making a logical fallacy: the failure to prove the positive does not prove the negative either. Even the new atheist Dawkins has the intellectual honesty to admit this (and I'm as much an atheist as he is) - while the evidence needs to be shown that a god exists, the absence of that evidence does not prove that a god does not exist. The same principle exists for presumed innocense. It has to be shown that someone is guilty of a crime. In the absence of that evidence the accused will be presumed to be innocent. However, in reality, just as innocent men have been found guilty on poor or shoddy evidence, there are men who were never found guilty for the crime (loss, destruction, fouling of evidence, technicalities etc... OJ I'm looking at you) and yet they were the culprit. We know this as a society, and accept the risk of letting a guilty man go free for lack of evidence, because the damage for finding an innocent man guilty is far greater.

So, while you can challenge anyone to give reasons how House Clegane could be a useful house to the North, you cannot make the assertion that House Clegane is useless in the absence of it. Especially because an "assertion" is a positive claim.

Likewise - while the onus is on the dragon believer to prove that dragons exist, the other cannot positively claim that dragons do not exist. For this reason many laws in physics are called "theories" and so far no factual premisse such as in math can be taken for granted. While the law of gravity is a theory that says that every apple coming loose from its tree will fall down, there is the off chance possibility that one time some apple flew up instead without any witness. Hence, the law of gravity cannot be "proven". Now there are some people who then think they're clever by saying that since the law of gravity cannot be "proven" it therefore is "false"... And basically you are doing the same when you say "ah not proven it's useful so it's useless".

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to show the logical fallacy you are making when you made the claim that House Clegane is a useless house.

ETA: in relation to your answer of Meera's post that attempted to show you this fallacy with another example. I hope you know that debate rules follow from the scientific method and reasoning, right?

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Given that you have no evidence of House Clegane's usefulness, I can only conclude that you don't know.

We are speculating, but the speculation is information based. Is that evidence? No. I would say that full evidence would be aDoS, or S7 and S8. That doesn't mean we or I cannot make educated speculation. 

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A fair point about House Clegane being able to become a Northern house, but given that you can't even prove whether House Clegane is useful, nor prove if it even exists anymore, it makes no sense to talk about House Clegane as if it exists.

Actually, the House still exists when the exiled members are still alive, even if it lost its lands. Sandor still carries the name Clegane and carry its sigl since he is his brother's heir. You could consider it to be in a limbo state. The moment Sandor Clegane fails to re-establish a keep for House Clegane and say he marries a common woman then House Clegane is over and done with. That's when House Clegane become a lost House. Several of the men of the Golden Company and Plumm are men with roots in the nobility whose lands were taken away from them and failed to manage to re-establish it. House Massey and Baratheon might end similarly.

Again, the limbo state of House Clegane within Sandor's lifetime at the moment does not disprove its existence. It doesn't make him a commoner or a hedge warrior all of a sudden. He's an exiled noble.  

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I can address what you wrote. The small write-up you did on symbolism wasn't compelling enough to convince me of the importance of your interpretation of the symbols. Interesting read though.

That's because it's a little summary without citing all the essays I wrote on it. But if you find that thing interesting, you can find the evidence for it gathered so far (and I've even barely scratched the surface of it) here: https://sweeticeandfiresunray.wordpress.com/the-chthonic-cycle/

[Meera of Tarth]

12 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

I doubt that. If I had a 13yo daughter, that argument would never fly. Not with I as the parent, or a court of law in most countries. I don't know why SanSan shippers are even trying. She's too young. It's creepy. He's a hebo. It's an open and shut case.

Look, I'm not interested in reducing arguments about the complexity of the brain, especially in development, or the legalities of this pairing if it took place in the real world in the 21st century to shipper fantasy. I know everything I need to know about this pairing, and I've concluded that it is an extremely creepy pairing, to say the least. If I were Sansa's parent, Sandor would be placed in the black cells.

I'm ok with GRRM writing about it. Fiction is fiction, but let's not mince the truth here. It's inexcusable on Sandor's part.

It's ok to disagree. I respect your opinion, but I don't share the cements of it: the fact you decided it's creepy, because we have discussed that age difference works differently in this world, and Sandor is a changed man, and Septon  Ray changed him even more....

But different people, different visions, it's ok.

However, I'd like to add that I don't actively ship SanSan. I think he is her best match and I'd like to see her happy because I feel she loves him and vice versa, so if that is shipping, then I ship them. But my point is that the important thing is to understand that what a person wants is the most important, and there's no need to dream about them being married with fireworks to agree on that.

But of course, if you think he is a pedo or a hebo (I still don't know what a hebo is ), you'd prefer another one for her. I don't know who, since she clearly doesn't love anyone else if it's not Sandor, and she is surrounded by really creepy creatures. Who could be that one?

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, ThePukwudgie said:

Experience doesn't accelerate brain development. It certainly creates new connections in their brains, but it doesn't make their brains reach adulthood faster.

Yes, I know. I'm just saying what George uses as arguments regarding age and all the Stark children behaving in ways older than we expect given their age, and as a forewarning they will behave and make decisions as more mature people than we expect for their age.

Regardless of the fact that in medieval times it was rare for a 13 year old to be actually wedded, let alone bedded and regardless of the fact that brains do not develop faster or better because of experience, those are George's self worded premises about Westeros society and his explanation for their behavior, and George and by extension d$d will have some of the Stark children survive and marry.

 

[Mandzipop]

I'm of the opinion that the show won't show SanSan. For multiple reasons.

I started as a show only. I read the books during season 3. When I read the books I was very shocked by SanSan. I didn't pick up on it on the show. I have spoken to multiple show only fans and I have yet to meet anyone who has picked up on it. The show doesn't do subtle, it slaps you in the face with a wet fish to make a point. In fact, I got the impression she was terrified of him and hated him. The show has slapped the viewers in the face with the Brienne/Jamie wet fish, but not SanSan.

I have not read the books since, I intended to last year, but for medical reasons I was unable to. The same medical issues have caused me to forget much of what was in the books and I still am unable to re-read them. Hence I am coming at this from mainly a show only angle.

The show does do parallels, but usually they are very obvious ones. There is a theme of what goes around comes around. That leads me to believe that Littlefinger will die at his own wedding by poisoning. The only person he is likely to marry is Sansa. I think the likely candidate to actually poison him is Sansa. I expect that to take a season to set up and play out.

There is a good possibility that Bran will return to Winterfell, if that is the case, Sansa doesn't need Sandor to tell her about Littlefinger's crimes against her family.

Currently Sandor has no real reason to head north. He isn't one to follow the crowd. Just because he is with the BwB, doesn't mean he will follow them. As far as we the viewers are aware, he doesn't know that Sansa is in Winterfell.

There are a lot of loose ends that require tidying up and the Riverlands is one of them. It is most likely to be tied up by the end of season 7.

I might be wrong, but the show does follow patterns. If Sandor survives, I see his role as being captain of the Kingsguard/Queensguard (whichever it is).

I also think the gap is too long now for them to introduce a relationship. From the people I have spoken to who are show only viewers, most can't remember the scenes between Sansa and Sandor.

The show is now only including essential plots. There are no nice side bits. Just the bare basics. Is SanSan essential to the big picture? Do they need to create a new sub-plot which will do what exactly?

I don't take anything Dan and Dave say seriously. I certainly don't take anything the actors say seriously. Why give away plot information about the hugely successful show?

This begs the question as to whether the books and show will be different. I think the very major points will be resolved the same, being defeat of the Whitewalkers, who (if anyone) ends up ruling Westeros and who (out of the very major characters) lives or dies. Outside of that, I think everything else is up for grabs.

The show has pretty much killed off romance. We may see Rhaegar and Lyanna. We may even get Jon/Dany (although if that happened I'd expect it to be political).

A very character driven reason that I don't see it happening is that I'm not entirely sure Sandor would like what Sansa has become. She is now a very different character to when he last was with her in season 2.

The show isn't aimed at the readers. The majority of the show only fans do not go on forums, they do not look up references. They watch the show, have a chat about it at work the next day in the canteen and then wait until the next episode (apart from the season 5 finale). Knowing that Sansa and Sandor have a relationship akin to BatB is all well and good for those who do visit forums and do read up on this. However, it's a bit pointless to the vast majority of viewers who don't do this. They mainly cater for the masses, however, on occasions they do give nods to the books even if they won't be following up on the story, and I think that is what happened with some of the scenes between Sansa and Sandor.

I'm only looking at this from a show perspective and I can't really respond too much with book stuff (I just can't remember a lot of it), so quoting lines from the books won't change my perspective if it isn't in the show. I might be totally wrong in my predictions, I might change my mind if I see evidence further down the line. But as it currently stands, there is (in my mind) insufficient set up for it to progress organically within the time constraints left in the show.

 

[Le Cygne]

You are a Jon and Sansa shipper, that's your focus. That's what you want, that's why you are arguing against SanSan.

Many agree with the showrunners, that Jon and Sansa isn't on the show at all, and it's not in the books, either.

And many picked up on SanSan and enjoyed it. The author said it was on the show. So did the producers.

Commentary --

Bryan Cogman: The Hound/Sansa relationship is still a big part of the show. ~ 1x05

Cogman: I want to assure the fans out there that the Hound and Sansa subplot is alive and well. ~ 1x05

GRRM: That beautiful scene between the Hound, Sandor Clegane, and Sansa. ~ 1x08

D.B. Weiss: The developing relationship between these two...

David Benioff: Yep. Much more to come. ~ 1x10

Benioff: He's attracted to her. ~ 1x10

Weiss:  It's a good thing that Rory is as tall as he is. Sophie must have grown a foot in the first year of the show. Luckily she's playing against Rory who's also...

Benioff:  Yeah, he's genuinely massive. ~ 2x07

SANSA (to SANDOR): What are you doing here?

Lena Headey (to SANSA): He loves you!...

SANDOR (to SANSA): I could take you with me. Take you to Winterfell. I'll keep you safe.

Neil Marshall (director): We re-shot this scene because the first version we did also had a song in it... He made Sansa sing, but it was the song that she had just finished singing, so coming off the back of the scene it would have...

Peter Dinklage (singing the song from the Disney movie): Really? Beauty and the Beast ... ~ 2x09

Alex Graves (director): He’s saying all that really mean stuff, but what he’s really saying is I love you. ~ 4x10

Benioff: He's a more thoughtful person... He's really thinking about his past in a way that he never had before.

Weiss: He's starting to see that there's perhaps a different way of living your life. The unfortunate ugly reality is that the kind of pacifism Ray is preaching is often suicidal when you are in the middle of the kind of world that they are all in. ~ 6x07

GRRM interview --

GRRM: I do know there's all these people out there who are, as they call themselves, the SanSan fans, who want to see Sandor and Sansa get together at the end. So that's interesting, too.

Tom Merritt: The TV show has sort of played with that a little and probably stoked those fires, I would think.

GRRM: Oh, sure. And I've played with it in the books.

Tom Merritt: Yeah, yeah.

GRRM: There's something there. But it's still interesting to see how many people have responded to it.

Veronica Belmont: I'm not going to say that that hasn't crossed my mind. ~ Geek and Sundry

Some reviews from season 2 --

Also, I think that fact that The Hound is clearly in love with her, in a Beauty/Beast sort of way, helps endear her to us.~ IGN

Sansa and the Hound! Sansa and the Hound! I have to admit that the scene where Sansa finds Sandor in her room after he leaves the battle is one of my favorites in all of the books. (I'm a 12-year-old Beauty and the Beast fan at heart.) I only wish we could've seen more of them together throughout the season. I guess what I'm suggesting is that the show be refocused into just a giant, expensive exercise in Sansdor fanfic. I don't think that's too much to ask. ~ Chicago Now

Why, oh, why wouldn't Sansa go with The Hound at this point? Their shared scenes have always been a pleasure to watch, but none more so than their final one last night. (Though he never asked his little bird for a song, did he?) ~ Tor

But while Bronn distracts himself with a presumably hired lady love, Sandor keeps a rather affectionate candle burning for Sansa. Perhaps making a reference to flame isn't exactly appropriate, considering that Sandor was scared enough of the fire to desert his post. But that does bring up another subtle contrast between himself and fire-starter Bronn, doesn't it? ~ TV Overmind

But as fire raged outside King's Landing the Hound finally had enough, handing in his tersely memorable notice and pausing only to offer sanctuary to Sansa on his way. Sadly his little bird rejected his offer – but their surprisingly tender scene provided a brief respite amid the death and destruction. ~ The Guardian

I never thought it would be possible, but the Hound made me tear up a bit. His conversation with Sansa was so heartfelt. Their relationship has been building up to this, but it was still surprising. Will Sansa get out with him in time? I’m guessing that she will be too late once again. ~ CliqueClack

Sandor Clegane (Rory McCann) surprised us in this episode. His "eff it all" attitude, drinking and his offer to take Sansa (Sophie Turner) away were at the top of the list. He's clearly had enough of his employer and doesn't care who knows it. We must say, we probably would have fled with him if we were Sansa. ~ E Online

Agree or disagree with Martin, you have to admit he makes his point very well, and scenes like the Hound advancing on Sansa to tell her that all men she knows—or will know—are killers and that the world is made by killers are at once beautiful, mesmerizing, and horrifying. ~ AV Club

The attention Martin paid to Sandor and Sansa's subtext-ridden relationship was nice. Sandor seemed—for the first time in this series—a real living, breathing person, and Rory McCann was finally let out of his cage and allowed to do his thing.  ~ TV Equals

"But he arrived, Stannis (who deserves major props for walking the walk; he was the first of his men on to land and on to the ladders) was defeated and we're left to wonder if Tyrion is alive; where Sansa is off to with Hound; and how the King's Guard will react to its highness as a coward. ~ TV Fanatic

Despite his burned and battered visage, he's no monster, merely a man sickened by all the hypocritical, monstrous things he's seen other, supposedly better men do to one another... With the water on fire and his life on the line, Sandor Clegane used his one good eye to take a clear-eyed look at the real cost of other people's games and did the most reasonable thing of all: He walked away. ~ Grantland

Having abandoned the battle, he offers to take Sansa with him, returning her to Winterfell, an offer she momentarily rejects but seems to relent to in the end. OR DOES SHE?! ~ Screencrush

He offers to take her back to Winterfell and to protect her, but she refuses, still saying how much she loves Joffrey. That's when the Hound gets real with her, looks her straight in the eyes and explains that he's not playing games, he's being 100 percent honest. He will keep her safe and she doesn't need to keep lying and pretending to love Joffrey. And it seems to work. ~ Buddy TV

The Hound doesn't say much, but the show has done a good, subtle job of letting us know what Sandor Clegane thinks of Joffrey's treatment of the "little bird." ~ Huffington Post

Sansa is almost raped before being rescued by the Hound, who takes care of things in his usual brute force fashion. But his affection for Sansa is obvious ("I didn't do it for you," he tells Tyrion) ~ AV Club

I loved finally seeing a bit of interaction between Sandor Clegane and Sansa. While he may not look the part, he is quite the knight in shining armor. ~ Tor

It's the Hound, of course, who comes to her rescue, the "monster" who is far more civilized than his master—or anyone, really—would give him credit for. (In fact, it's the fourth time the Hound has saved her: last season, he chided Joffrey when he made Sansa stare at Ned's rotten head on a spike; he saved her from a beating when he told Joffrey that Sansa wasn't just being superstitious when she made the comment about his name day; he gave her his cloak when Joffrey orders her stripped in the throne room. Upon seeing the frenzy of the crowd, the first thought that Tyrion (Peter Dinklage) has is of Sansa's safety, but he's thinking in far more pragmatic terms, seeing the Stark girl as a bargaining chip, a hostage, a pawn. It's not the Hound's perception. He sees Sansa as a "little bird" whom he saves from the hungers of the crowd, bringing her back to the keep so she can be returned to her "cage." His sense of honor and morality is at odds with both his "freakish" appearance and his own use of brutality. Rather than just save Sansa, he disembowels one of her captors and slays them all gruesomely. He has the bottle to be just as brutal as anyone else, but he has a moral code that sets him apart from the wildness of those around him. ~ Televisionary

The king and Prince Tommen are whisked off to safety, along with Cersei and Tyrion, but Sansa runs off into a dark corridor and is attacked by a group of men, hell bent on taking her maidenhead. Enter the Hound, who saves the little bird from her attackers and carries her to safety. Tyrion thanks him with a, "Well done, Clegane." But Sandor just says, "I didn't do it for you." Sansdor shipping, I am in you. ~ Chicago Now

She attempts to thank him for stopping her from being raped during the riots in last week’s episode, but he responds with sneering cruelty. However, after she goes, he gives her a longing gaze that does nothing towards dispelling the theory that he’s madly in love with her. ~ GameZone

More stuff --

So Twitter was spiking pretty hard while Sansa was being tossed about like a rag-doll. And then it basically spiked to Insane. Good bye Twitter. Hello re-start computer.

@JoeBuffaloWins: The hound!!!!

@Kifty1n: AHHHHHHHHHHHHSANDORSANDORSANDORyesyesyes

@karltmeakin: SANDOR CLEGANE: WAR ZONE.

@MercifulMalacai: The Hound is takin a bite outta crime

@cocolicious46: The Hound be killing the SHYT outta bammas!!

@CMR365: I think the Hound just field dressed somebody

@truebloodandtv: Sandor Clegane is such a boss

@mycropht: Yes! The Hound Represent!!!! Rory McCann FTW

@jpglion: Well done, Hound.

So I got back on and the scroll was at a quasi-managable 140 entries per refresh.

Oh, then dude spoke.

@JalinMarieC: Youre alright now little bird, youre alright

And there went my screen again.

@juiimanji: SANSAN. IT IS TV!CANON.

@siriuslyserious: @GameOfRos: Ros is a SanSan fan. #GameOfThrones I think Im becoming one too

@Wee_Birdie: Oh my *fans self*

@LeahMaycock: I do like The Hound. A tortured soul but maybe a good heart?

@LynchLyfe: Awww I think he loves her.

@Wee_Birdie: Totally worth the wait. I may have melted into a small puddle

@lucia_g89: Omg that sansa scene. Im still shaking

@Kiftyln: oh my god how can a burned man be so smexy idk

@Paco_ICEandFIRE: HE DID IT FOR LOVE, TYRION! HE DIDNT SAVE SANSA FOR YOU!!!!

The San/San tweets were still off the charts by the time shit calmed down. There was a brief scene between Sansa and Shae

@jmnzl: Shae is being useful?! What.

No one cared. Most of the people were still spazzing out over San/San. - Tweets, winteriscoming.net

[Ashes Of Westeros]

I agree with what @Mandzipop has said. I started reading books during the s4, but  I didn't pick up on SanSam neither on the show nor on the books (probably because I didn't like Sansa at the begining). I figured it out when I came across some SanSan fan Instagram accounts and videos. Then I re-read the Sansa chapters from the first book and it became clear for me.

As @Le Cygne pointed out, the show indeed gave us many hints, most of them I could attribute to Rory's acting and his good knowledge of source but during s4-s6 there were none.  

[Wilnova]

10 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Compared to who? Tyrion? Dany? Stannis? All of them, have done some pretty atrocious shit.

Have they run down and killed a scared, fleeing child and then laughed about it? If not, then no. Dany, especially, someone who has a soft corner for children cannot be compared to the Hound. She fights for the weak and helpless. Sandor Clegane killed the weak and helpless.

9 hours ago, ThePukwudgie said:

 I know everything I need to know about this pairing, and I've concluded that it is an extremely creepy pairing, to say the least. If I were Sansa's parent, Sandor would be placed in the black cells.

I'm ok with GRRM writing about it. Fiction is fiction, but let's not mince the truth here. It's inexcusable on Sandor's part.

Agree, I find it rather creepy that people ship Sansa with a drunken, abusive asshole who sexually, physically and verbally assaults her the whole time she is in KL and was part of the cabal that held her captive and killed her father's men (Including Jeyne's father).  I have mentioned this before, but some people are into the whole 'forced seduction' trope which was is also the theme behind the actual 'beauty and beast' fairy tale where the beast kidnaps belle and hold her prisoner and she falls in love with him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_seduction

Which is fine. People are free to ship whatever they want - but let's not pretend that SanSan is somehow better than Sansa/LF shipping or Sansa/Tyrion shipping just because poor, abused Sansa responds to the tidbits of kindness the Hound shows her while she is a prisoner. I have found SanSan shippers to be a very hypocritical bunch who castigate and criticize Tyrion and LF as Pedophiles because they are attracted to Sansa, but have no issues with a  27 year old Sandor who falls for 11 yr old Sansa.

I can understand the Jon/Sansa shippers who are mainly Sansa fans and who want her to find a nice guy. It may not be canon and I don't think it will happen on the show, but I can see why they ship it. I would prefer that Sansa end up with a nice guy too.

And GRRM does seem to have run into problems without the 5 yr gap and making these characters too young. I think his story has changed in some aspects because Arya is too young at 11 to be romantically involved with either Jon or Gendry. Maybe he feels the same way about Sansa at 13.

[OldGimletEye]

5 minutes ago, Wilnova said:

Have they run down and killed a scared, fleeing child and then laughed about it? If not, then no. Dany, especially, someone who has a soft corner for children cannot be compared to the Hound. She fights for the weak and helpless. Sandor Clegane killed the weak and helpless.

No Dany only ordered the torture of two young women. And only god knows what the Shavepate did to those young women.

And then she gave an order in Astapor that was excessively broad and lead to the unnecessary deaths of boys over 13.

And then she bears some responsibility for the cluster fuck in that Lhazareen Village because she was playing around with something she didn't understand. And even after Drogo made pretty explicity clear how he conducts war, she filed no objection.

Do you really want to go down this road?

Also, Sandor only did  that, after being ordered to. Now you may not thing an order is a complete defense here. And maybe it's not. But, its a factor in considering his actions.

[Wilnova]

19 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

No Dany only ordered the torture of two young women. And only god knows what the Shavepate did to those young women.

And then she gave an order in Astapor that was excessively broad and lead to the unnecessary deaths of boys over 13.

And then she bears some responsibility for the cluster fuck in that Lhazareen Village because she was playing around with something she didn't understand. And even after Drogo made pretty explicity clear how he conducts war, she filed no objection.

Do you really want to go down this road?

Also, Sandor only did  that, after being ordered to. Now you may not thing an order is a complete defense here. And maybe it's not. But, its a factor in considering his actions.

I don't mind going down this road. Dany's story is about the road to hell being paved with good intentions - she asked that the innkeeper's daughters be tortured to get information on her dying soldiers. Her order in Astapor was against the slave masters. At no point did she LAUGH and JOKE after doing these things - instead she is filled with guilt, remorse and self doubt about much of her decisions.

And let's not start with the 'he was only following orders' nonsense. He did leave when he wanted to and he could have done so any time. He not only killed Mycah but he kicks down Mycah's body and jokes about it to taunt Ned. No one - not Tyrion, not Dany, not Stannis - takes pleasure in the horrible things they do. Sandor does. And that makes a difference to me.

[OldGimletEye]

24 minutes ago, Wilnova said:

I don't mind going down this road. Dany's story is about the road to hell being paved with good intentions - she asked that the innkeeper's daughters be tortured to get information on her dying soldiers. Her order in Astapor was against the slave masters. At no point did she LAUGH and JOKE after doing these things - instead she is filled with guilt, remorse and self doubt about much of her decisions.

In other words, you want to put Dany's horrid actions into some context in order to arrive at final conclusion about her character. But, not do the same with Sandor. Sounds extremely hypocritical.

The fact there might have been some mitigating circumstances around Dany's order to commit torture doesn't make that action completely defensible. And whatever her intentions were in Astapor, the killing of boys over 12 or 13 really isn't defensible either. That wasn't necessary in order to secure Astapor. It involved more killing than what was absolutely necessary to take that city. And that's what makes it reprehensible.

Also, I wouldn't always take everything Sandor says or does at face value. By, the time Sandor meets Arya, he seems to be pretty touchy over the Mycah situation.

24 minutes ago, Wilnova said:

And let's not start with the 'he was only following orders' nonsense. He did leave when he wanted to and he could have done so any time. He not only killed Mycah but he kicks down Mycah's body and jokes about it to taunt Ned. No one - not Tyrion, not Dany, not Stannis - takes pleasure in the horrible things they do. Sandor does. And that makes a difference to me.

Yes, lets go with the "following orders nonsense". Because I think your explanation here doesn't take into account the realities of feudal societies, nor does it take into account how soldiers are trained.

Also, again, I wouldn't take into take Sandor's words at face value. I am not so sure that Sandor was trying to taunt Ned. Seems to me that Sandor was using his usual bravado to cover up his real emotions. When he talks to Arya about Mycah, he seems fairly bothered by it.

Also we learn in the story, that Sandor bascially believes in some notion of a "fair fight" given his actions with Gregor and later statements by Beric. So no, he isn't just some mindless killer.

ETA:

Sandor Clegane isn't this story's most prolific 13 year old boy killer. That title belongs to Dany Targaryen.

[Le Cygne]

Rory doesn't act on his own, he's given direction. And they showed many of the scenes, and beats from the book story, both during their time together and after (which I listed above). Sansa keeps her feelings to herself in the books, too. But as one can see, even the cast picked up on it, and it's a very popular pairing among show only fans, too. There's a difference between, one didn't pick up on it, and no one picked up on it. Many actually did. But even if one didn't pick up on it, there's a foundation there to build on.

[Mandzipop]

7 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Looking at it from a show perspective, there are many indications Sansa and Sandor will happen. The fact that it's an adaptation, and they keep hitting the story points of the books, and Sansa is having romantic thoughts and dreams about Sandor, at the same time he's having romantic thoughts about her, actually does matter. But let's just look at the show for a moment...

A story is a story, it's not about the viewers, but the characters. But as the HBO focus group noted, Sansa and the Hound is "one of the biggest ships out there" and there were quite positive responses to the pairing on the show (some of that below). The show has no problem calling back to what happened before, they do so all the time, and they showed many of their scenes, and many moments after they parted.

One of many triangle scenes with Joffrey, here's another, the name day scene, and the scene where he gives her his cloak, and she is wearing his cloak and stands to face him. The rescue scene, and the thank you scene after, they added the pledging himself line. The Blackwater scenes, and the scene the author called beautiful. The hand holding. The pretty sister scene, they added the happy memory line. The scene at the same point in the story where she dreams of him in bed with her. A bunch of Blackwater callbacks  and other parallels, including a bunch of beauty and beast references, the ask her who came back for her scene and now it's never too late to come back, and now he is going north, it's not too late for you. And more...

Also here's Sandor looking at LF when he betrays Ned...

 

Here's what the showrunners said about Sansa and Sandor:

Weiss: The developing relationship between these two.

Benioff: Yep. Much more to come.

 

Here's what one of the writers (Cogman) said:

The Hound/Sansa relationship is still a big part of the show.

 

Here's what GRRM said (from the interview transcript):

GRRM: I do know there's all these people out there who are, as they call themselves, the SanSan fans, who want to see Sandor and Sansa get together at the end. So that's interesting, too.

Tom Merritt: The TV show has sort of played with that a little and probably stoked those fires, I would think.

GRRM: Oh, sure. And I've played with it in the books.

Tom Merritt: Yeah, yeah.

GRRM: There's something there. But it's still interesting to see how many people have responded to it.

Veronica Belmont: I'm not going to say that that hasn't crossed my mind.

 

Here's a bunch of reviews of Blackwater:

"Also, I think that fact that The Hound is clearly in love with her, in a Beauty/Beast sort of way, helps endear her to us." -  IGN

"But while Bronn distracts himself with a presumably hired lady love, Sandor keeps a rather affectionate candle burning for Sansa. Perhaps making a reference to flame isn't exactly appropriate, considering that Sandor was scared enough of the fire to desert his post. But that does bring up another subtle contrast between himself and fire-starter Bronn, doesn't it?" -  TV Overmind

"Why, oh, why wouldn't Sansa go with The Hound at this point? Their shared scenes have always been a pleasure to watch, but none more so than their final one last night. (Though he never asked his little bird for a song, did he?)" -  Tor

"Sansa argues that Stannis won't hurt her, which the Hound quickly explains that yes he will, he's a killer. Like him, like Ned, like Robb. And to look him in the face so she can get used to seeing men that kill—they're all around her, making the world what it is. She looks at him and is no longer afraid. , and gosh, he's just gruff because he's scared! Tale as old as time… song as old as rhyme!" -  Hey, Don't Judge Me

"But as fire raged outside King's Landing the Hound finally had enough, handing in his tersely memorable notice and pausing only to offer sanctuary to Sansa on his way. Sadly his little bird rejected his offer – but their surprisingly tender scene provided a brief respite amid the death and destruction." -  The Guardian

"I never thought it would be possible, but the Hound made me tear up a bit. His conversation with Sansa was so heartfelt. Their relationship has been building up to this, but it was still surprising. Will Sansa get out with him in time? I’m guessing that she will be too late once again." -  CliqueClack

"The Hound is obviously soft for Sansa - I think she represents a pureness and innocence he can never possess, and of course there is her beauty, such a beauty that it reminds the Hound of his inner and outer ugliness, and so she becomes a kind of symbol of all things clean that he feels motivated to protect, and yet Sansa refuses him." -  (Not So) Daily

"And Sansa, well…she’s clearly getting much better at manipulating Joffrey, and her scenes with Cersei, and most notably the scene with the Hound (Rory McCann) were some of the best we’ve seen with the character." -  What Culture

"Sandor Clegane (Rory McCann) surprised us in this episode. His "eff it all" attitude, drinking and his offer to take Sansa (Sophie Turner) away were at the top of the list. He's clearly had enough of his employer and doesn't care who knows it. We must say, we probably would have fled with him if we were Sansa." -  E Online

"War forces us to consider our allegiances, and in that battle the Hound realizes that his King is not worth protecting with the flames nipping at his heels. That he feels differently about Sansa says something about the character, something the show has been subtly laying the groundwork for all season." -  Cultural Learnings

 

Here's some DVD commentary:

SANSA (to SANDOR): What are you doing here?

Lena Headey (to SANSA): He loves you!...

SANDOR (to SANSA): I could take you with me. Take you to Winterfell. I'll keep you safe.

Neil Marshall (director): We re-shot this scene because the first version we did also had a song in it... He made Sansa sing, but it was the song that she had just finished singing, so coming off the back of the scene it would have...

Peter Dinklage (singing the song from the Disney movie): Really? Beauty and the Beast ...

 

Here's twitter during the rescue scene (from wicnet):

So Twitter was spiking pretty hard while Sansa was being tossed about like a rag-doll. And then it basically spiked to Insane. Good bye Twitter. Hello re-start computer.

@JoeBuffaloWins: The hound!!!!

@Kifty1n: AHHHHHHHHHHHHSANDORSANDORSANDORyesyesyes

@karltmeakin: SANDOR CLEGANE: WAR ZONE.

@MercifulMalacai: The Hound is takin' a bite outta crime

@cocolicious46: The Hound be killing the SHYT outta bammas!!

@CMR365: I think the Hound just field dressed somebody

@truebloodandtv: Sandor Clegane is such a boss

@mycropht: Yes! The Hound Represent!!!! Rory McCann FTW

@jpglion: Well done, Hound.

So I got back on and the scroll was at a quasi-managable 140 entries per refresh.

Oh, then dude spoke.

@JalinMarieC: You're alright now little bird, you're alright

And there went my screen again.

@juiimanji: SANSAN. IT IS TV!CANON.

@siriuslyserious: @GameOfRos: Ros is a SanSan fan. #GameOfThrones I think I'm becoming one too

@Wee_Birdie: Oh my *fans self*

@LeahMaycock: I do like The Hound. A tortured soul but maybe a good heart?

@LynchLyfe: Awww I think he loves her.

@Wee_Birdie: Totally worth the wait. I may have melted into a small puddle

@lucia_g89: Omg that sansa scene. I'm still shaking

@Kiftyln: oh my god how can a burned man be so smexy idk

@Paco_ICEandFIRE: HE DID IT FOR LOVE, TYRION! HE DIDN'T SAVE SANSA FOR YOU!!!!

The San/San tweets were still off the charts by the time shit calmed down. There was a brief scene between Sansa and Shae

@jmnzl: Shae is being useful?! What.

No one cared. Most of the people were still spazzing out over San/San.

 

However, you had a preconception of SanSan prior to the show, I didn't. That is why I never picked up on it. He gave her a cloak? So what? Sansa gave Jon a cloak. Does that mean she is in love with him? Of course not. You could interpret it at the most that he likes her. Not the other way round. Whenever she is around him she either looks snarky or terrified. At what point in the show does it categorically state that she is having romantic dreams about Sandor? I appreciate you saying it is an adaptation, however it was an adaptation. Now they are telling their own story.

They said there is much more to come. It hasn't come and I now think it is too late. The scripts are only written the season before. They have the bare bones structure, but they do change things. They said Jon would be a warg in season 6. Was he? No. Back in season 2/3 they were expecting more books before the show finished. That hasn't materialised. The show is cutting unnecessary plots/subplots. We will only get the very important stuff between now and the end. I don't think SanSan is important enough to keep. Romance is bottom of their list of priorities right now. They just want finished with the show.

I can't see Sansa's season 7 arc being anything other than bringing down Littlefinger. I don't see room for the Sandor in season 7. That takes us to season 8. They wont have interacted since season 2. They didn't share a great deal of scenes together. There isn't enough time to build it up.

Sandor's TV role around Sansa came across to a show only person as a guardian and protector. He felt sorry for her. It appeared that she was scared of him and didn't particularly like him very much. This was then replicated with Arya.

I'm sticking to my opinion for the time being. The only thing that will even budge me a tiny bit is if there is evidence that they are filming a significant amount between them for season 7. If they are filming a lot together in season 7, then there might be time for them to build up a relationship. If they are not filming much or not at all, there isn't time to introduce the story.

If they can cut Lady Stoneheart, FAegon and the Dornish Masterplan, then they can certainly cut SanSan.

In the next few months, filming locations and schedules will give us a clearer picture.

[Le Cygne]

Well, everyone has their own opinions. But again, many show only fans have seen the romantic framework for Sansa and Sandor, and are fans. Even the cast was singing Beauty and the Beast during the commentary. It's that obvious to that many people. What wasn't obvious to many of us was that they were telling a romance for Jon and Sansa, and the showrunners just ruled that out. But that they spent so much time setting up Sansa and Sandor, and are now sending him her way, is a big clue. All the pieces are in place...

[Meera of Tarth]

2 hours ago, Wilnova said:

Have they run down and killed a scared, fleeing child and then laughed about it? If not, then no. Dany, especially, someone who has a soft corner for children cannot be compared to the Hound. She fights for the weak and helpless. Sandor Clegane killed the weak and helpless.

Agree, I find it rather creepy that people ship Sansa with a drunken, abusive asshole who sexually, physically and verbally assaults her the whole time she is in KL and was part of the cabal that held her captive and killed her father's men (Including Jeyne's father).  I have mentioned this before, but some people are into the whole 'forced seduction' trope which was is also the theme behind the actual 'beauty and beast' fairy tale where the beast kidnaps belle and hold her prisoner and she falls in love with him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_seduction

Which is fine. People are free to ship whatever they want - but let's not pretend that SanSan is somehow better than Sansa/LF shipping or Sansa/Tyrion shipping just because poor, abused Sansa responds to the tidbits of kindness the Hound shows her while she is a prisoner. I have found SanSan shippers to be a very hypocritical bunch who castigate and criticize Tyrion and LF as Pedophiles because they are attracted to Sansa, but have no issues with a  27 year old Sandor who falls for 11 yr old Sansa.

I can understand the Jon/Sansa shippers who are mainly Sansa fans and who want her to find a nice guy. It may not be canon and I don't think it will happen on the show, but I can see why they ship it. I would prefer that Sansa end up with a nice guy too.

And GRRM does seem to have run into problems without the 5 yr gap and making these characters too young. I think his story has changed in some aspects because Arya is too young at 11 to be romantically involved with either Jon or Gendry. Maybe he feels the same way about Sansa at 13.

About the show....

I agree that Tyrion doesn't force Sansa. Both are forced....But are you suggesting that LF doesn't force Sansa? He kisses her and he is in power. She sometimes doesn't kiss him, but at the beginning, she clearly has no other thing to do but to kiss him in response.

Sandor didn't force her to kiss him.

At worst, anyone would be forcing her.

And SanSan shippers didn't say LF was a pedo...that "pedo" issue began with the arguments of people who didn't ship SanSan. So not hypocritical.

[Le Cygne]

Actually, Tyrion forces her in the books. He makes her strip and gropes her. LF does, he forces her to kiss him and touches her breast, too.

Sandor made Sansa sing, and seconds later, she caressed his face, then said this, and pretended they kissed:

Quote

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she’d been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she’d kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside… she could scarcely imagine it.

And then, after much wherefore art though Hound, including dreaming of Sandor replacing Tyrion in the marriage bed:

Quote

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

And Sandor was harsh with his language, but she saw through it; when he was trying to warn her by mentioning the Lannisters cutting off her father's head, she thought, he won't let me pet him!   And then she thinks this:

Quote

I would be gladder if it were the Hound, Sansa thought. Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her.

When other men are bad to her, she thinks of the Hound and the advice he gave her, and feels better. She also imagines that he is the one there to rescue her, and this is after she "wonders what became of Sandor Clegane":

Quote

“Singer,” a rough voice said, “best go, if you want to sing again.” The light was dim, but she saw a faint glimmer of a blade... It was Lothor Brune’s voice, she realized. Not the Hound’s, no, how could it be? Of course it had to be Lothor …

And indeed, the show set him up as the man who won't hurt her, and had her say, "You won't hurt me."

[Ashes Of Westeros]

38 minutes ago, Mandzipop said:

I'm sticking to my opinion for the time being. The only thing that will even budge me a tiny bit is if there is evidence that they are filming a significant amount between them for season 7. If they are filming a lot together in season 7, then there might be time for them to build up a relationship. If they are not filming much or not at all, there isn't time to introduce the story.

Aye, it would be become clear next months. I would take everything that the showrunners said with a pitch of salt. They are big trolls, they tolds us Jon won't return. Even if they planned some storyline in the beginning, they could abandon it due to the lack of time or source material. So, I can't be sure that SanSan will happen in the show before I see Sandor in Sansa's chamber in his full naked glory rasping "I won't hurt you, little bird".

But I do believe in GRRM's storytelling and that this SanSan Chekhov's gut will shoot in the books.

[Meera of Tarth]

42 minutes ago, Mandzipop said:

However, you had a preconception of SanSan prior to the show, I didn't. That is why I never picked up on it. He gave her a cloak? So what? Sansa gave Jon a cloak. Does that mean she is in love with him? Of course not. You could interpret it at the most that he likes her. Not the other way round. Whenever she is around him she either looks snarky or terrified. At what point in the show does it categorically state that she is having romantic dreams about Sandor? I appreciate you saying it is an adaptation, however it was an adaptation. Now they are telling their own story.

They said there is much more to come. It hasn't come and I now think it is too late. The scripts are only written the season before. They have the bare bones structure, but they do change things. They said Jon would be a warg in season 6. Was he? No. Back in season 2/3 they were expecting more books before the show finished. That hasn't materialised. The show is cutting unnecessary plots/subplots. We will only get the very important stuff between now and the end. I don't think SanSan is important enough to keep. Romance is bottom of their list of priorities right now. They just want finished with the show.

I can't see Sansa's season 7 arc being anything other than bringing down Littlefinger. I don't see room for the Sandor in season 7. That takes us to season 8. They wont have interacted since season 2. They didn't share a great deal of scenes together. There isn't enough time to build it up.

Sandor's TV role around Sansa came across to a show only person as a guardian and protector. He felt sorry for her. It appeared that she was scared of him and didn't particularly like him very much. This was then replicated with Arya.

I'm sticking to my opinion for the time being. The only thing that will even budge me a tiny bit is if there is evidence that they are filming a significant amount between them for season 7. If they are filming a lot together in season 7, then there might be time for them to build up a relationship. If they are not filming much or not at all, there isn't time to introduce the story.

If they can cut Lady Stoneheart, FAegon and the Dornish Masterplan, then they can certainly cut SanSan.

In the next few months, filming locations and schedules will give us a clearer picture.

I partially agree. I've been convinced that here is room for SanSan but only if something (or there are more hints) happens in S7, as well as to other possible romances.

The speed of the show and the small quantity of episodes gives me nightmares. If those romances don't occur because they think are useless (like LSH or other plots) theu'll only have death, sadism and blood, apart from battles. Interesting dialogue was cut out from the show too.

What I'm only sure if that they cut romances the only one that has less chances to be cut is JB, but I'm not sure of it 100%; it could be cut too; and it doesn't matter that it has been hinted for so long. I hope they are smart and don't do this. Many people enjoy other storylines like political intrigue or romance, apart from cutting heads out.

Anyway, if romance is cut, I'm completely sure that they won't invent new ones: like Tormund and Brienne or Jon and Sansa, that's for sure.

[Meera of Tarth]

9 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Actually, Tyrion forces her in the books. He makes her strip and gropes her. LF does, he forces her to kiss him and touches her breast, too.

 

I was talking only about the show interactions 

[Le Cygne]

1 minute ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I was talking only about the show interactions 

Right, but the person you were responding to was not. Sandor's show behavior was gentled, they said they intentionally did so, this way there are no misunderstandings. And they had her come right out and say the subtext of the books, "You won't hurt me."

[Meera of Tarth]

5 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Right, but the person you were responding to was not. Sandor's show behavior was gentled, they said they intentionally did so, this way there are no misunderstandings. And they had her come right out and say the subtext of the books, "You won't hurt me."

True! I've just read the 27-year old bit! I read it very quickly and I was thinking about the show, though

I'll edit my comment