Lady Sansa Clegane

[Mandzipop]

4 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Well, everyone has their own opinions. But again, many show only fans have seen the romantic framework for Sansa and Sandor, and are fans. Even the cast was singing Beauty and the Beast during the commentary. It's that obvious to that many people. What wasn't obvious to many of us was that they were telling a romance for Jon and Sansa, and the showrunners just ruled that out.

They might have considered going down that route to start with. But the change in direction for Sansa's story, to me suggests that they have backed themselves into a situation where it might not be possible to go down that route.

The way the show was made initially and how it is made now are different philosophies. We had character building in the early days. That has gone out of the window in their rush to finish the show.

I'm prepared to say I was wrong and I'm quite happy to do so. I was initially a Jonsa shipper but I changed my mind. It was only a half-hearted ship in my mind anyway.

I think all romantic show ships have possibly sunk. Political ones have time as one episode is enough to set them up.

I'm prepared to be wrong, I hope we do get some romance before the show ends. But I'm not getting my hopes up.

[Wilnova]

2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

In other words, you want to put Dany's horrid actions into some context in order to arrive at final conclusion about her character. But, not do the same with Sandor. Sounds extremely hypocritical

Because I do have context for Dany's action. The people she goes after are those she thinks responsible for the cruelty against the slaves. Which is why I mentioned that her story arc has elements of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. She is not murdering people because someone asked her to or because an innocent child dared play with a sword. What she does, she thinks she is doing for the greater good. Like, Stannis burning people because he thinks that the survival of westeros depends on that. We may not get Stannis POV, but we can still feel his regret, his burden.

What is the context of the Hound running down a child and killing him because Cersei orders him to? He is a henchman, no different to the Mountain, mowing down innocent people because he was told to.

Quote

“No sign of your daughter, Hand,” the Hound rasped down, “but the day was not wholly wasted. We got her little pet.” He reached back and shoved the burden off, and it fell with a thump in front of Ned.

Bending, Ned pulled back the cloak, dreading the words he would have to find for Arya, but it was not Nymeria after all. It was the butcher’s boy, Mycah, his body covered in dried blood. He had been cut almost in half from shoulder to waist by some terrible blow struck from above.

“You rode him down,” Ned said.

The Hound’s eyes seemed to glitter through the steel of that hideous dog’s-head helm. “He ran.” He looked at Ned’s face and laughed. “But not very fast.”

What is the context here? Does Sandor think that Mycah was guilty and was that why he ran down a fleeing child and cuts him almost into half?  Or does he not care that he is murdering a child? Where is his remorse or sadness at doing what he was ordered to do?

2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

The fact there might have been some mitigating circumstances around Dany's order to commit torture doesn't make that action completely defensible. And whatever her intentions were in Astapor, the killing of boys over 12 or 13 really isn't defensible either. That wasn't necessary in order to secure Astapor. It involved more killing than what was absolutely necessary to take that city. And that's what makes it reprehensible.

Who is defending her actions? Did I say she was justified. I am talking about her intent and feelings on the matter. Does she laugh and joke about having those women tortured?  She orders the torture in a fit of anger after she loses one of her men. The shavepate also asks her to kill her child hostages which she refuses. As for Astapor:

Quote

"Unsullied!" Dany galloped before them, her silver-gold braid flying behind her, her bell chiming with every stride. "Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see." She raised the harpy's fingers in the air ... and then she flung the scourge aside. "Freedom!" she sang out. "Dracarys! Dracarys!"

Dany is specifically asking her unsullied to kill slavers. As someone who is a queen at 13, maybe she does not hold 13 year old slavers wearing tokars as being innocent.  From her point of view she does not order the deaths of minors, she orders the death of those equal to her in age and responsibility (or so she assumes) and spares the minors. Her intentions here are freedom for the slaves and death for their masters.

2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Also, I wouldn't always take everything Sandor says or does at face value. By, the time Sandor meets Arya, he seems to be pretty touchy over the Mycah situation.ler.

 

Why should I not take what he says at face value? Just because he is touchy about murdering a child and laughing about it, he should get a pass? Does he ever show any remorse to Arya? Instead he keeps taunting and teasing Arya about killing Mycah again and again. He is a nasty, nasty man and I have no idea why anyone tries to justify his taunting people like Ned and Arya about killing a child as him being 'touchy'. Ugh.

 

This is the Hound:

 

Quote

“I killed my first man at twelve. I’ve lost count of how many I’ve killed since then. High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvet, knights puffed up like bladders with their honors, yes, and women and children too—they’re all meat, and I’m the butcher."

Sandor is a killer of defenseless children and has been for a while. 

2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Yes, lets go with the "following orders nonsense". Because I think your explanation here doesn't take into account the realities of feudal societies, nor does it take into account how soldiers are trained.
 

So, how come Sandor Clegane can desert his post after blackwater because he is scared of fire and does not want to fight anymore? So the realities of feudal societies does not hold true when it's his life on the line does it? It's no problem when he has to kill children and jeer about it as part of his job. But when it comes to Sandor Clegane facing a little fire, oh no! All that soldier training by feudal societies goes out the window right?

2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Also, again, I wouldn't take into take Sandor's words at face value. I am not so sure that Sandor was trying to taunt Ned. Seems to me that Sandor was using his usual bravado to cover up his real emotions. When he talks to Arya about Mycah, he seems fairly bothered by it.
 

So Sandor covers up his heart of gold by acting nastily to everyone? That must really be the truth of it. When he cruelly murders a child, cuts him almost in half, shoves his body off the horse and then joked about this poor child trying to escape, he was just trying to cover up his shyness by making small talk. Damn Ned and Arya for not understanding the real Sandor. I mean Arya should have understood that Sandor was just covering up his emotions when he says things like :

Quote

"Because I hacked your little friend in two? I've killed a lot more than him. I promise you."

 

Quote

"I killed your butcher's boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after."

 

Quote

"I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.”

Real nice guy there. Trying to cover up his sensitive, shy soul with some snark. No big deal, taunting a traumatized little girl about killing her friend and wanting to rape her sister.

 

 

[Le Cygne]

Subtext is a thing. Last thing, he's talking about Tyrion raping Sansa. The show scene, the director said you can't go by what he says.

Mycah stuff, he's clearly expressing remorse. And they followed that up this season, he says why haven't the gods punished me and is told they have.

As for how people react to Sandor, well, Sansa sure seems to like him lots. She said a special prayer for him. Wishes he was there. Pretends they kissed. Lots more...

As for the audience, the showrunner said he hopes they "love the Hound" and the producer (Cogman) just said "the audience has such an investment in him."

Seems like much of the audience gets subtext, too.

[Le Cygne]

Also Arya does understand in the end (Arya gets subtext!), the show just spend a lot of time on that. She came right out and said she took him off her list.

Quote

Waif: Arya Stark left him to die. He was on her list.

Arya: He was not on her list anymore. She had taken him off it.

 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

4 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Last thing, he's talking about Tyrion raping Sansa. Subtext is a thing. The show scene, the director said you can't go by what he says.

I think the Hound indeed said what he meant ("I wish I had sex with your sister"), but other expressions describing sexual interaction just didn't belong to his vocabulary.

[Le Cygne]

Yes, the whole scene was filled with subtext, indeed, their whole story together, they are both falling in love with each other.

In the books, he was reacting to the news, he thought Tyrion raped Sansa. And in both books and show, he was goading Arya into killing him.

Show he is using exactly the line that Rorge told Arya, that led her to kill him. He wanted Arya to kill him. Books, too. But as you say, he is attracted to Sansa.

The dream that one day they'd meet again, and she would love him too, was dying there on the Trident, too. It's a classic Beast dying of heartbreak moment.

"You remember where the heart is... that's how you kill a man." And the show included that, too. They hit every beat, the framework is all there from the books.

And now he's headed her way... In the books, he's already closeby, and there are hints in her last chapter about that. In the show, he's not, but the show is fixing that now.

[Wilnova]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Sandor didn't force her to kiss him.

He may not have forced her to kiss him, but Sansa was terrified of what he would do to her:

Quote

“If you scream I’ll kill you. Believe that.” He took his hand from her mouth.

He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened.

“Still can’t bear to look, can you?” she heard him say. He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. “I’ll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said.”

His dagger was out, poised at her throat. “Sing, little bird. Sing for your little life.” Her throat was dry and tight with fear, and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind. Please don’t kill me, she wanted to scream, please don’t. She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again, but then she remembered. It was not the song of Florian and Jonquil, but it was a song. Her voice sounded small and thin and tremulous in her ears.

 

How is any of this romantic? This is a scared, terrified girl, scared that the Hound is going to sexually assault her. He wrenches her arm, throws her on the bed and shoves a knife into her throat. Imagine it : A 28 year old man, manhandling a 12 year old girl...

How is this any better than what Tyrion does to Sansa? Tyrion also sees the repulsion in Sansa's eyes and decides not to enjoy his marital rights. Tyrion was married to Sansa, Sandor was not. But unlike Drogo raping Dany on her wedding night, Tyrion at the least had the decency to not force himself on Sansa.

Same with LF. LF is not overtly pushing himself on Sansa. He is grooming Sansa to accept his little touches and kisses :

Quote

“I would never have known it from the kiss you gave me.” He pulled her closer, caught her face between his hands, and kissed her on the lips for a long time. “Now that’s the sort of kiss that says welcome home. See that you do better next time.”

“Yes, Father.” She could feel herself blushing.

Do we see her vociferously complain about kissing LF? No.

Basically I don't like all three relationships, because they all have elements of forced coercion in them, I am not a fan of the 'forced seduction' trope and and I think Sansa is too traumatized and too young to make decisions about her life partner. i would pity Sansa if she got together with any of those 3 characters.

[Le Cygne]

Oh, wait, there's more to that story. Where she caresses Sandor's face. Wishes he was there and understands it was the fire he feared. Lies awake at night wishing she'd gone with him. Wonders where he is. Hopes he's there to rescue her. Compares every man to him (and he always wins). Pretends they kissed. Places him in the marriage bed.

(And yeah, he was there to rescue her, all the Florian and Jonquil build-up, he asks for her to sing Florian and Jonquil; she prays for him, he comes to her from the ship called Prayer, she sings her prayer; he says he's going and will keep her safe, she tells us he was there to rescue her; she wishes he hadn't left her there and he wishes the same thing; etc.)

Quote

Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. “Little bird,” he said once more...

This is classic Beauty and the Beast. Fear is excitement. The Beast awakens the beast (sexuality) within Beauty. The story focuses on SANSA and her desires for SANDOR. It's a story of sexual awakening, filled with subtext. This is literature, it's not meant for a surface reading. But even looking at just the surface, it's clear she is expressing desire for him.

Here's a review by Roger Ebert:

Quote

Those familiar with the 1991 cartoon will recognize some of the elements of the story, but certainly not the tone. Cocteau uses haunting images and bold Freudian symbols to suggest that emotions are at a boil in the subconscious of his characters. Consider the extraordinary shot where Belle waits at the dining table in the castle for the Beast's first entrance. He appears behind her and approaches silently. She senses his presence, and begins to react in a way that some viewers have described as fright, although it is clearly orgasmic. Before she has even seen him, she is aroused to her very depths, and a few seconds later, as she tells him she cannot marry--a Beast!--she toys with a knife that is more than a knife.

http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/great-movie-beauty-and-the-beast-1946

So that leads to this, because that's the story he's telling:

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As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

And no, she's not responding that way to Tyrion. She's not responding that way to Littlefinger. She's not responding that way to Jon. She's responding that way to Sandor Clegane.

As many of us have been pointing out, this is about how SANSA feels about SANDOR. It's not about the reader or viewer. It's about the STORY.

(fixed the link, I moved it all there)

[Mandzipop]

22 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I partially agree. I've been convinced that here is room for SanSan but only if something (or there are more hints) happens in S7, as well as to other possible romances.

The speed of the show and the small quantity of episodes gives me nightmares. If those romances don't occur because they think are useless (like LSH or other plots) theu'll only have death, sadism and blood, apart from battles. Interesting dialogue was cut out from the show too.

What I'm only sure if that they cut romances the only one that has less chances to be cut is JB, but I'm not sure of it 100%; it could be cut too; and it doesn't matter that it has been hinted for so long. I hope they are smart and don't do this. Many people enjoy other storylines like political intrigue or romance, apart from cutting heads out.

Anyway, if romance is cut, I'm completely sure that they won't invent new ones: like Tormund and Brienne or Jon and Sansa, that's for sure.

If they aren't filming together for season 7 we are going to need something big to even put it into the minds of viewers.

I think Tormund and Brienne was meant to be tongue in cheek. Although it was in character with Tormund. I personally was expecting that one.

I hope they stick with J/B, but it pains me to say this, but I think that they may have said their final farewell. The only hope is if Cersei casts Jamie out or Jamie leaves.

The only possible romance I see available and possibly essential to the story is in flashback and that is Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Wilnova]

27 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Also Arya does understand in the end (Arya gets subtext!)

Arya understood  that the Hound was really a poor, misunderstood soul and was just too shy to express some remorse for murdering a child? Was that why she left him to die a painful death?

Quote

A spasm of pain twisted his face. “Do you mean to make me beg, bitch? Do it! The gift of mercy . . . avenge your little Michael . . . ”

“Mycah.” Arya stepped away from him. “You don’t deserve the gift of mercy.”

The Hound watched her saddle Craven through eyes bright with fever. Not once did he attempt to rise and stop her. But when she mounted, he said, “A real wolf would finish a wounded animal.”

Maybe some real wolves will find you, Arya thought. Maybe they’ll smell you when the sun goes down. Then he would learn what wolves did to dogs.

She turned her horse and rode away from him, and never looked back once.

Atta girl!! One of Arya's finest moments leaving him there to die. Unfortunately it looks like he got saved by Al Swearengen on the show. Not sure what he will do in the books, but I get the feeling GRRM may hand out some tidbits for the SanSan shippers since he seems to to be a fan of the 'forced seduction' trope considering that he thinks Dany/Drogo is romantic. 

[Le Cygne]

Again, she took him off her list. That's why he was on the list, for killing Mycah. AND SHE TOOK HIM OFF.

Quote

Waif: Arya Stark left him to die. He was on her list.

Arya: He was not on her list anymore. She had taken him off it.

No one is saying Arya and the Hound are best buddies. But the subtext is, he felt remorse for killing Mycah, and she understood.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

23 minutes ago, Wilnova said:

Not sure what he will do in the books, but I get the feeling GRRM may hand out some tidbit for the SanSan shippers since he seems to to be a fan of the 'forced seduction' trope considering that he thinks Dany/Drogo is romantic. 

In the books Dany/Drogo were completely different as Drogo began to have sex with Dany after her consent.

Spoiler

After a while he began to touch her. Lightly at first, then harder. She could sense the fierce strength in his hands, but he never hurt her. He held her hand in his own and brushed her fingers, one by one. He ran a hand gently down her leg. He stroked her face, tracing the curve of her ears, running a finger gently around her mouth. He put both hands in her hair and combed it with his fingers. He turned her around, massaged her shoulders, slid a knuckle down the path of her spine.
It seemed as if hours passed before his hands finally went to her breasts. He stroked the soft skin underneath until it tingled. He circled her nipples with his thumbs, pinched them between thumb and forefinger, then began to pull at her, very lightly at first, then more insistently, until her nipples stiffened and began to ache.
He stopped then, and drew her down onto his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and looked into his eyes. "No?" he said, and she knew it was a question.
She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. "Yes," she whispered as she put his finger inside her.  AGOT; Chapter 11

 

[Le Cygne]

Yes, and he called the wedding night sexy and romantic:

Quote

"What happens later in the books is Drogo and Dany ride out to to consummate their marriage... You have Dany and Drogo riding out, and they find this little secluded spot, there's a stream. And Drogo doesn't speak any English, so they're talking to each other, and she says is no the only word you know. And they undress, and there's a sex scene which was pretty sexy and fairly romantic."

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/21681757

This is a story of Westeros, it's not Little House on the Prairie.

[Meera of Tarth]

13 minutes ago, Mandzipop said:

If they aren't filming together for season 7 we are going to need something big to even put it into the minds of viewers.

I think Tormund and Brienne was meant to be tongue in cheek. Although it was in character with Tormund. I personally was expecting that one.

I hope they stick with J/B, but it pains me to say this, but I think that they may have said their final farewell. The only hope is if Cersei casts Jamie out or Jamie leaves.

The only possible romance I see available and possibly essential to the story is in flashback and that is Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Well if there is more incest between those twins after 6.10 I don't think I would be able to watch the show again. Yes, this is the only hope.

[Meera of Tarth]

44 minutes ago, Wilnova said:

He may not have forced her to kiss him, but Sansa was terrified of what he would do to her:

How is any of this romantic? This is a scared, terrified girl, scared that the Hound is going to sexually assault her. He wrenches her arm, throws her on the bed and shoves a knife into her throat. Imagine it : A 28 year old man, manhandling a 12 year old girl...

How is this any better than what Tyrion does to Sansa? Tyrion also sees the repulsion in Sansa's eyes and decides not to enjoy his marital rights. Tyrion was married to Sansa, Sandor was not. But unlike Drogo raping Dany on her wedding night, Tyrion at the least had the decency to not force himself on Sansa.

Same with LF. LF is not overtly pushing himself on Sansa. He is grooming Sansa to accept his little touches and kisses :

Do we see her vociferously complain about kissing LF? No.

Basically I don't like all three relationships, because they all have elements of forced coercion in them, I am not a fan of the 'forced seduction' trope and and I think Sansa is too traumatized and too young to make decisions about her life partner. i would pity Sansa if she got together with any of those 3 characters.

My reply was about the show, not the books. I edited my comment because for some reason the show came into my mind at that moment, instead of the books. It was later when I realised you were talking about the books in the second paragraph I bolded.

But as Le Cygne has also pointed out:

Quote

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

there is a response in her thoughts, later in her chapters. I wonder why should she recall the UnKiss if she genuinely despised him.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

15 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

The cloak is pretty symbolic. Covering a woman with one's cloak is a part of wedding ritual in Westeros. So probably it isn't coincedence that Sandor gave his cloak to Sansa twice.

[Newstar]

Quote

How is any of this romantic? This is a scared, terrified girl, scared that the Hound is going to sexually assault her. He wrenches her arm, throws her on the bed and shoves a knife into her throat. Imagine it : A 28 year old man, manhandling a 12 year old girl...

Shipping is essentially a romantic/sexual fantasy, and the SanSan ship is one such fantasy. If people find enticing the idea of an innocent, purehearted maiden being manhandled and held at knifepoint by a big, strong scarred warrior with a delicate, bruised heart and taming his inner beast with her sweetness of spirit--and evidently some people do, because that's the premise of a ton of romance novels--who are we to say it's horrifying, fucked up and disgusting? I mean, in real life, sure, romanticizing assault and abuse is gross and wrong, but what people like in their sexual fantasies is often very different from what they like in real life, and they find fictional scenarios appealing that (I hope, at least) they would find contemptible and appalling in real life. Of course, there's an argument to be made that creating fictional scenarios that present assault and abuse in a romanticized light is irresponsible, because it normalizes such behaviour; that's why a previously common romance novel trope (the virginal heroine being raped by the hero and enjoying it) has all but disappeared in recent years. At any rate, shippers' admiration of relationships involving romanticized abuse/assault scenarios doesn't necessarily mean they would condone or approve such things in real life. SImilarly, a lot of romantic fiction deals with taboo relationships (student/teacher, stepsiblings, etc.), since fictional romance needs obstacles to be interesting. Just because someone devours those types of romance novels doesn't mean that they wouldn't find such relationships objectionable in real life.

Still, it's one thing to enjoy a fictional relationship, write ship manifestos, write/read fic, make vids, etc. and another thing altogether to insist that this relationship will be endgame, in spite of the mounting evidence to the contrary, and try to shout down anyone who disagrees with you. SanSan fans these days guilty of the latter remind me of Homer Simpson's reaction when his beloved barbecue pig sails into the skies out of sight: "It's just a little airborne! It's still good! It's still good!"

I think anyone hoping for an endgame relationship for Sansa at this point is kidding themselves. I'd be very, very surprised if she makes it out of Season 7 alive.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

The cloak is pretty symbolic. Covering a woman with one's cloak is a part of wedding ritual in Westeros. So probably it isn't coincedence that Sandor gave his cloak to Sansa twice.

exactly. There is a lot of symbolism in their relationship. Even the scene with the knife (I would have preferred that without it) is symbolic too. Something that makes sense in a story. 

And anyway, he never hurt her, never. On the contrary, he saved her many times of real assaulters.

[OldGimletEye]

4 hours ago, Wilnova said:

Because I do have context for Dany's action. The people she goes after are those she thinks responsible for the cruelty against the slaves. Which is why I mentioned that her story arc has elements of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. She is not murdering people because someone asked her to or because an innocent child dared play with a sword. What she does, she thinks she is doing for the greater good. Like, Stannis burning people because he thinks that the survival of westeros depends on that. We may not get Stannis POV, but we can still feel his regret, his burden.

No you're going out of your way to find the mitigating circumstances for Dany's actions, but not doing the same thing for Sandor. I mean I understand Sandor doesn't have violet eyes and silvery blond hair, and all, but that's not much of excuse for your failure to take into account the circumstances of his actions.

4 hours ago, Wilnova said:

What is the context of the Hound running down a child and killing him because Cersei orders him to? He is a henchman, no different to the Mountain, mowing down innocent people because he was told to.

The difference was that Sandor had a reason to believe that Mycah had in fact committed a crime. Gregor should have known that the people in the RL hadn't done anything and that Tywin was simply killing them as a tactic of war.

Also, there is the plain old fact that, since the story begins, Sandor didn't go around killing and raping as many innocent people as Gregor did. Sandor isn't Gregor and that is made clear.

4 hours ago, Wilnova said:

What is the context here? Does Sandor think that Mycah was guilty and was that why he ran down a fleeing child and cuts him almost into half?  Or does he not care that he is murdering a child? Where is his remorse or sadness at doing what he was ordered to do?

How could Sandor been sure if Mycah was guilty or not? It wasn't his function to play judge. He may had doubts, but couldn't have been sure of Mycah's guilt or innocence.

Also, what's the context of Dany's actions in Astapor? Did she not care that the only thing that some of those young teenage boys might have been guilty of is being born in the wrong place and class?

4 hours ago, Wilnova said:

Who is defending her actions? Did I say she was justified. I am talking about her intent and feelings on the matter. Does she laugh and joke about having those women tortured?  She orders the torture in a fit of anger after she loses one of her men. The shavepate also asks her to kill her child hostages which she refuses. As for Astapor:

Dany is specifically asking her unsullied to kill slavers. As someone who is a queen at 13, maybe she does not hold 13 year old slavers wearing tokars as being innocent.  From her point of view she does not order the deaths of minors, she orders the death of those equal to her in age and responsibility (or so she assumes) and spares the minors. Her intentions here are freedom for the slaves and death for their masters.

You don't need to quote the books to me here. I know what is says. I also know that Dany's order was way over the top and went beyond what was reasonable to take Astapor.

You know, this how it always works. Dany does something atrocious, but then we always get,"but, but you have to consider the circumstances of the act. You have to consider how she feels!" But, evidently nobody else is entitled to that same consideration. Sandor, evidently, isn't entitled to the same searching inquiry to consider the mitigating circumstances.

And if Dany thought 13 year olds could be legally culpable for crimes, a notion which did in fact exist during medieval times, her actions at Astapor were still a terrible exercise in collective punishment.

4 hours ago, Wilnova said:

Why should I not take what he says at face value?

Because there is textual evidence that you shouldn't?

4 hours ago, Wilnova said:

Just because he is touchy about murdering a child and laughing about it, he should get a pass?

Why does Dany get a pass? Should Sandor get a free complete pass here? Probably not. But, I don't think he should get judged as the worse person in the story, particularly when we compare his actions to others and are willing to look at his actions fairly.

4 hours ago, Wilnova said:

Does he ever show any remorse to Arya?

He doesn't say so explicitly, because that isn't his style. But, there are indications that he is bothered by it.

4 hours ago, Wilnova said:

Instead he keeps taunting and teasing Arya about killing Mycah again and again.

No, not exactly.

4 hours ago, Wilnova said:

He is a nasty, nasty man and I have no idea why anyone tries to justify his taunting people like Ned and Arya about killing a child as him being 'touchy'. Ugh.

He hasn't been angel, that's for sure. But when you compare some of his actions with other characters in the books, it's hard to conclude he is a "nasty, nasty man".

4 hours ago, Wilnova said:

This is the Hound:

Sandor is a killer of defenseless children and has been for a while. 

You know, I can cherry pick quotes too. It would be nice if you would give the entire quote and explain the circumstances surrounding it.

Here is the entire quote:

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"Just as if I was one of those true knights you love so well, yes. What do you think a knight is for, girl? You think it's all taking favors from ladies and looking fine in gold plate? Knights are for killing." He laid the edge of his longsword against her neck, just under her ear. Sansa could feel the sharpness of the steel. "I killed my first man at twelve. I've lost count of how many I've killed since then. High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvet, knights puffed up like bladders with their honors, yes, and women and children too—they're all meat, and I'm the butcher. Let them have their lands and their gods and their gold. Let them have their sers." Sandor Clegane spat at her feet to show what he thought of that. "So long as I have this," he said, lifting the sword from her throat, "there's no man on earth I need fear."

Notice here Sandor is telling Sansa what knights actually do. They kill. That's the bottom line. Sandor is basically saying, "you know Sansa, if knights are what you like, I can kill as good as any of them."

Now, I do not know if he has or has not killed women and children the past. There are no facts given to us about those alleged killings. So, it's hard to comment about them. It could be he is just bullshitting Sansa here. It's hard to say.

Also, notice too here, Sandor's last line. To which Sansa thinks:

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Except your brother, Sansa thought, but she had better sense than to say it aloud. He is a dog, just as he says. A half-wild, mean-tempered dog that bites any hand that tries to pet him, and yet will savage any man who tries to hurt his masters. "Not even the men across the river?"

So basically Sandor is bullshitting here. And Sansa knows it. So there is some evidence, right there, that you can't always take what Sandor says at face value.

4 hours ago, Wilnova said:

So, how come Sandor Clegane can desert his post after blackwater because he is scared of fire and does not want to fight anymore? So the realities of feudal societies does not hold true when it's his life on the line does it? It's no problem when he has to kill children and jeer about it as part of his job. But when it comes to Sandor Clegane facing a little fire, oh no! All that soldier training by feudal societies goes out the window right?

Epic fail on your part here. Reason being is that you're not representing the situation accurately.

Sandor doesn't just fear fire like a normal reasonable man would. He has a very acute mental condition with respect to fire that was brought on by significant childhood trauma. Yet, despite this mental condition, Sandor fought for several hours with wildfire raging all around him. He fought until he was mentally exhausted and just couldn't fight any longer. That led to his eventual mental breakdown and parting with House Lannister.

But, also, you know, you're acting like people can just walk away from these feudal obligations easily. They can't. The society in which Sandor lives takes these feudal obligations quite seriously.

4 hours ago, Wilnova said:

So Sandor covers up his heart of gold by acting nastily to everyone? That must really be the truth of it. When he cruelly murders a child, cuts him almost in half, shoves his body off the horse and then joked about this poor child trying to escape, he was just trying to cover up his shyness by making small talk. Damn Ned and Arya for not understanding the real Sandor. I mean Arya should have understood that Sandor was just covering up his emotions when he says things like :

I guess in order to respond to this part, properly, I'm gonna have to do it by the numbers, like kindergarten style, given the rather creative use of quoting.

Let's start with:

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"I did." His whole face twisted. "I rode him down and cut him in half, and laughed. I watched them beat your sister bloody too, watched them cut your father's head off."

Yep, this sounds really bad. But, notice there is a little bullshit here on Sandor's part. He says that he just sat there and "watched" them beat Sansa as if he didn't care. But, that isn't exactly true now is it? He failed to mention here, to Arya, that he had shouted "enough" when Sansa was being beaten.

Sandor says all these things like he didn't give a fuck. But, given his comment about Sansa, I think this interpretation of Sandor's comment is highly doubtful.

The fact of the matter is that Sandor isn't beyond bullshitting a little, particularly when trying to show his bravado. Like for instance when he says:

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"Clegane's mouth twitched. "Those two blind men? Might be I killed them both. What would you do if I had?""

But, he didn't kill those sentries now did he?

And then there is:

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Why don't you just kill me like you did Mycah?" Arya had screamed at him. She was still defiant then, more angry than scared.

He answered by grabbing the front of her tunic and yanking her within an inch of his burned face. "The next time you say that name I'll beat you so bad you'll wish I killed you.

If Sandor didn't care about the killing of Mycah, then why this reaction? If he didn't give a fuck, then why would he care if Arya mentioned Mycah.

Also this conversation:

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No," Arya spat back at him. "I'd like to kill you."

"Because I hacked your little friend in two? I've killed a lot more than him, I promise you. You think that makes me some monster. Well, maybe it does, but I saved your sister's life too. The day the mob pulled her off her horse, I cut through them and brought her back to the castle, else she would have gotten what Lollys Stokeworth got. And she sang for me. You didn't know that, did you? Your sister sang me a sweet little song."

Why does Sandor, try to justify himself here by telling Arya that he also saved her sister's life too? If he simply doesn't give a crap about the killing of Mycah, why not just say, "yeah, I did, what of it!"

4 hours ago, Wilnova said:

Real nice guy there. Trying to cover up his sensitive, shy soul with some snark. No big deal, taunting a traumatized little girl about killing her friend and wanting to rape her sister.

Sure, it isn't the nicest words in the world. But, let's remember the context here. Oh, wait, you don't do that with Sandor. Only people with silvery blond hair and violet eyes get that consideration, evidently.

Anyway, Sandor is pretty much at very low emotional point here, having heard about Sansa's marriage to Tyrion being a main reason. He wants to die. And his goading Arya into killing him.

And as far as Sandor raping Sansa, is it your opinion that he meant to rip her heart out too?

Also, finally, whatever Sandor once was, it is pretty clear that he wants to change and do some good before his life is over.

[Woman of War]

2 hours ago, Newstar said:

Shipping is essentially a romantic/sexual fantasy, and the SanSan ship is one such fantasy. If people find enticing the idea of an innocent, purehearted maiden being manhandled and held at knifepoint by a big, strong scarred warrior with a delicate, bruised heart and taming his inner beast with her sweetness of spirit--and evidently some people do, because that's the premise of a ton of romance novels--who are we to say it's horrifying, fucked up and disgusting? I mean, in real life, sure, romanticizing assault and abuse is gross and wrong, but what people like in their sexual fantasies is often very different from what they like in real life, and they find fictional scenarios appealing that (I hope, at least) they would find contemptible and appalling in real life. Of course, there's an argument to be made that creating fictional scenarios that present assault and abuse in a romanticized light is irresponsible, because it normalizes such behaviour; that's why a previously common romance novel trope (the virginal heroine being raped by the hero and enjoying it) has all but disappeared in recent years. At any rate, shippers' admiration of relationships involving romanticized abuse/assault scenarios doesn't necessarily mean they would condone or approve such things in real life. SImilarly, a lot of romantic fiction deals with taboo relationships (student/teacher, stepsiblings, etc.), since fictional romance needs obstacles to be interesting. Just because someone devours those types of romance novels doesn't mean that they wouldn't find such relationships objectionable in real life.

Still, it's one thing to enjoy a fictional relationship, write ship manifestos, write/read fic, make vids, etc. and another thing altogether to insist that this relationship will be endgame, in spite of the mounting evidence to the contrary, and try to shout down anyone who disagrees with you. SanSan fans these days guilty of the latter remind me of Homer Simpson's reaction when his beloved barbecue pig sails into the skies out of sight: "It's just a little airborne! It's still good! It's still good!"

I think anyone hoping for an endgame relationship for Sansa at this point is kidding themselves. I'd be very, very surprised if she makes it out of Season 7 alive.

 Very good essay, thank you