Lady Sansa Clegane

[OldGimletEye]

On 8/6/2016 at 8:44 AM, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Of course.  We see a huge variation in those moral norms.  Dothraki to Ironborn to stark to Bolton.  But there is nothing wrong with the moral Norms of knighthood, and it's a uniform set of values that everyone accepts and understands.  I was pointing out that in the north there seems to be a large difference in the moral norms between stark and Bolton.  

Meanwhile in the houses which follow knighthood what variation there is is due to people choosing to ignore those norms.  Or maybe you think there are "northern" moral norms that are just as uniform?  But the Boltons are outliers, like Lannister and Frey or whatnot?

1. Okay, with respect to the different moral norms between Stark and Bolton, I think it’s more of a case of the Boltons not following them. Roose Bolton isn’t a stupid man. He knows what the general moral norms are in Westeros and in the North. He knows you’re not supposed to go around raping smallfolk and violating the Guest Right. He just chooses not to do so. Moral norms are not applicable to one house. All the nobility know what they generally are. Some follow them better than others, whether in Westeros generally or in the North.

2. Technically there is nothing wrong with the professed ideals of the knighthood. In fact, knights are supposed to uphold the best norms in society. At least those norms that regulate the conduct of warriors and the use of violence. The problem isn’t the moral code knights are supposed to have. It’s that so many knights fail at it. And it’s not just a few bad apples here and there. It’s rampant. That’s what pisses Sandor off.

3. Sandor having a low opinion of knighthood isn’t the same thing as him rejecting the moral norms which the institution of knighthood claims to have.

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'm not sure I agree about that.  Maybe it's what it should be but its not what it is or even what it Advertises itself to be.

It seems to me that since there's no particular process for proving any of those things before someone is knighted, the vows of knighthood are more like the army field manual.  "Now that you're a knight/soldier, here's how your expected to conduct yourself."

Course soldiers in the army recieve more uniform training.  In Westeros it's sometimes more like - ok you're a good fighter, so you're a knight,  now here's some guidelines about how you're supposed to behave. And in other cases boys grow up knowing the correct conduct of a knight from birth and hoping to be given that honor.  I think in both cases the explicit and universal nature of the knightly vows is helpful in promoting good behavior.

I disagree with your take on knighthood. It’s supposed to be a warrior elite which maintains and upholds the highest ethical values for warriors and soldiers. They are supposed to be setting the example for the common soldiery.

When you get the title “Ser” in front of your name, it’s supposed to mean that not only are you a proficient warrior, but also you are a guardian who upholds those moral norms that regulate the ethical behavior of warriors off and on the field of battle.

The trouble is that lots of these “Sers” aren’t doing that.

That, or perhaps, the priorities of knights in practice are very questionable at times. Like:

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he Imp's voice cracked like a whip, and suddenly Sansa was free. She stumbled to her knees, arms crossed over her chest, her breath ragged. "Is this your notion of chivalry, Ser Boros?" Tyrion Lannister demanded angrily. His pet sellsword stood with him, and one of his wildlings, the one with the burned eye. "What sort of knight beats helpless maids?"

"The sort who serves his king, Imp." Ser Boros raised his sword, and Ser Meryn stepped up beside him, his blade scraping clear of its scabbard.

 

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Regarding both Mycah and Bran - my position is not much different.  Yes, there were extenuating circumstances in both cases but the act is still definitely evil.  I don't try to justify Jaime pushing Bran or Sandor killing Mycah even if I "understand" why they did it.  

I wouldn’t disagree that both their respective acts were bad. My problem is when people try to condemn both men, unless they are just limiting themselves to being Jon, Davos, Brienne, and Ned fans or whatever.

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Conversely When it comes to "redemption" I honestly care very little about the "weight" of past actions.  I think what matters is that first a person decides to change in their heart, and second that a person takes actions that help rather than harm.  

I think there are some cases where people have acted so atrociously that it would be hard to forgive them. Like say if Ramsay tried to turn over a new leaf. I don’t think I could forgive him for repeatedly terrorizing peasant girls for sport.

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Lol.  If this happens I'll buy you a beer.  Somehow.

I’m sure we can figure out the logistics of this. It won’t cost you much. I’m fine with a Milwaukee's Best or something like that.

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Maybe what really grinds my gears is how so many people talk about how they like the Hound because "He's honest" and "just says truth others refuse to see".  And yet, a lot of what you and I have discussed (and what you berated me for) is that he's saying half the stuff he says because he's angry and not because he "really" believes it.  

How can someone be called "the most honest character" while at the same time when you point out some obviously untrue or horrible things he says, the same people reply "oh, he doens't really mean THAT."  or "oh he's only saying that because he wants to get reaction X from him/her".  or "oh he's in pain you shouldn't take what he says seriously".  

But to be fair that's more of an issue with how his fans portray him than how he really acts.  But I am SURE you understand frustration at a particular characters' fan base pretty well.  

I think anybody that knows Sandor well, knows he is quite capable of telling a whopper. Like for instance:

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"The girl speaks truly," the Hound rasped. "What a man sows on his name day, he reaps throughout the year." His voice was flat, as if he did not care a whit whether the king believed him or no. Could it be true? Sansa had not known. It was just something she'd said, desperate to avoid punishment.

Or

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Ser Boros turned to Sansa. "How is it you are not in your chambers at this hour, lady?"

"I went to the godswood to pray for the safety of the king." The lie sounded better this time, almost true.

"You expect her to sleep with all the noise?" Clegane said. "What was the trouble?"

And I think most Sandor fans understand that he is prone to engaging in hyperbole at times.

When people talk about Sandor’s honesty, I think they generally mean his commentary about knighthood and the overall shitiness of Westeros society. You can say that he over does it, but to a large extent he is saying what needs to be said.

Comments like:

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"A knight's a sword with a horse. The rest, the vows and the sacred oils and the lady's favors, they're silk ribbons tied round the sword. Maybe the sword's prettier with ribbons hanging off it, but it will kill you just as dead. Well, bugger your ribbons, and shove your swords up your arses. I'm the same as you. The only difference is, I don't lie about what I am. So kill me, but don't call me a murderer while you stand there telling each other that your shit don't stink. You hear me?"

The fact is that Sandor gets to the essence of what knighthood is really about. He’s stripping away all the pageantry, taking lady’s favors and ribbons around swords, and all that horseshit, and describing what knights really do.

In some ways, Sandor is kind of like the William T. Sherman of Westeros. And I’ve always had a bit of an appreciation for Sherman. Quotes like:

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“There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all hell.”

Or:

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“I think I know what military fame is; to be killed on the field of battle and have your name misspelled in the newspapers.”

 

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I believe I said on both occasions that he is telling her hateful horseshit and he is telling her some non-horseshit.  It's a mixed bag of gross overstatements and abusive lies intended to provoke her and actually useful information.  My point is that I give Sansa in particular a lot of credit for being able to fish out the most useful nuggets.  I'm not going to give all the credit to Sandor Clegane for ocassionally saying something useful while he's at the same time exposing innocent girls to verbal abuse.   

Well yes, his language to both girls is often problematic. Then, again, he never sent both girls to spend a little quality time with Shavepate either. Just Sayin.

And despite, his bluster and tendency to engage in hyperbole, he does, in my opinion, come to respect both girls. And does teach them some useful lessons. But, yeah, he does over do it at times.

Also, your comments are more on the mark with Sansa, than they are with Arya. Not that I think what he always says to Arya is cool. But, Arya wasn’t above starting a little shit herself. Like when Sandor lashed out at her, after his trial by battle was over.

Also one point about Sandor coming to respect Arya, that you might have forgotten about or missed. Arya looks Sandor in the face, unlike many others.

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Like I said above, I think it's not unreasonable for her to continue to be pissed off about him for that act, even if she knew everything about the extenuating circumstances.  

Of course not. I understand her anger and resentment.

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As for her naming herself executioner - did she actually do that at any point?  I suppose you mean adding him to her list?

No, I mean her actually attempting to kill him. Like her grabbing a knife at the end of his trial by combat and then later wanting to bash his head in with a rock.

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Thanks!  After all, not all of us who like Daenerys are part of the "Khaleesi National Party" right?  It's good to know all the Sandor fans are not also members of the "Sandor is teh ONE TRUE HERO" club.  

LOL. Didn't you know that I believe he is The PTWP? The Pooch That Was Promised, that is.

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 I think we've discussed this before.  Even if that wasn't his intent to any reasonable outsider that's what it would have looked like so "not ok" is really just a start of describing those circumstances. 

Yes, I remember the discussion. I believe you tried to make the intended rape argument.

I asked you to pinpoint where, in your opinion, did the intent to commit rape form in his mind. And to support that with evidence. You retorted that rape didn’t doesn’t require intent. I retorted back that maybe true, but usually an attempted rape requires specific intent. That pretty much ended the argument, if I recall correctly.

You can write “ to any reasonable outsider that's what it would have looked like”, but you know, at the end of the day, the so called reasonable outsider needs to explain her reasoning process. And for that reasoning process, to hold water, it actually needs to have a theory supported by facts. Just because the situation “felt rapy” doesn’t cut the mustard.

If you’re going to say that he entered Sansa’s room that night with rape on his mind, his actions seem to have been strange if that was his intent. Fact is that, if he had intended to rape her when he entered her room, he could have just done that and then left. But he didn’t do that.

Of course, then you could say that the intent to commit rape formed in his mind after Sansa closed her eyes and he threw her on her bed and put the knife to her throat. Except at no point did he put his hands on her private parts or did he attempt to tear off her dress or anything like that.

Finally, you could say, well maybe if Sansa hadn’t handled the situation well, he might have raped her or formed the intent to do so. But, that’s just pure speculation about an event that never occurred and has little bearing on the issue of whether or not whether the intent to rape ever formed in his mind, until he left Sansa’s room. Maybe he might have went that far. But, nobody really knows.

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I will give him credit.  I personally believe he had no fuckin' clue what he was gonna do there.  I DO think that given the state he was in (In pain, drunk, angry), Sansa may have been in real danger if she had reacted in the way that he obviously feared she would (horror, disgust or hate towards him because of his face).  Of course Sansa didn't do that so we don't really know.  

Oh I think it’s pretty clear he wanted her to leave with him. Then he got pissed off when she wouldn’t look at him. And then he proceeded to act like a complete asshole. And yes, Sansa handled the situation very well.

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Probably true.  I think he also worried/feared that she would reject him in a way that was deeply personal (involving his face).  I think the way she reacted was at once a perfect example of deescalation without her actually "giving in".  

Him believing that she wouldn’t look at his face is what exactly set him off. What he hadn’t figured out, with respect to Sansa, was that it wasn’t his face that was the problem. It was his preconceived notions about Sansa that was the problem.

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It didn't, though - she never turned away because of that.  He wept upon realizing this. 

What I meant here is Sansa's internal thoughts about Sandor face. It wasn't his face that was the problem. It was his anger that made afraid to look at him. I believe that is what she thought on top of the Red Keep before the Blackwater.

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You know, you do have a tendency not to react well when people try to justify things that other characters do.  Maybe it's not so important to justify his choices here either.  

Of course I do. But, I thought we agreed there is a difference between condemning acts and the person forever.

The point here is that while I find a lot of his actions with Sansa, at the Blackwater problematic, I don’t think it should condemn him from having any future with Sansa. That was the point.

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I personally think that she meant it as a "hey don't kill any kids" order but because she's once again didn't think things through of course she may have (we don't know) inadvertently killed a bunch of teenagers.  I don't consider this a justification but rather an explanation of where her brain probably was. Maybe that's the sort of thing you were trying to go for with Sandor above.  

Not a bad analogy. And neither of their respective actions, Dany at Astapor, or Sandor at the Blackwater, should sit quite right with us, I think.

And neither Dany nor Sandor should be condemned forever for their respective bad actions, particularly if they can show that the have changed.

With respect to why Dany gave the order she did in Astapor, it could be for the reason you suggest. Or maybe, it was because Dany had a collective punishment problem. Dany does tend to have a tendency to see people as being collectively guilty, until she has an eureka moment about the problem of collective guilt, which happened because of the death of Hazzea.

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I'm curious as to which particular actions of his were mostly plot driven, rather than character driven, in your opinion? 

You know, I hadn’t really thought about it. But, give me enough time, and I’m sure I can engage in all types of ass pullery to explain Sandor’s bad actions as just “being plot driven”. But, I am not inclined to do that. I just take Sandor’s actions as they are given and deal with them and don’t try to blame “the plot” for his fuck ups.

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Glad you're saying this - somehow a lot of people that like Sandor Clegane like to talk about how he "educated" Sansa without considering that she showed him just as much about waht the wolrd was actually like (rather than the world he constructed in his mind due to trauma and etc).

A big theme in ASOIAF is recovering one’s identity. I think part of the Hound’s/Sandor’s story is him recovering his identity as Sandor. The kid that played with knights until Gregor burned his face off. There is no doubt in my mind that Sansa played a big part in that process. Even though he liked to give her shit, I think he knew she was basically a good person.

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Thanks, I'm glad that you're consistent in this.  

But jus tto be annoying I want to say one thing.

You certainly get annoyed at KNP type people.  People that think Dany can burn down all of Westeros if she wants just because.  

Why don't I see you jumping in to tell the Sandor enthusiasts that oh, actually, hey that wasn't very sexy... that was actually pretty troubling...  Could it be... just maybe, that you might not be quite as hard on your faves as on some which aren't your faves?

I fully admit that I am not nearly as likely to jump on an anti-dany bandwagon as others.  

On some occasions I have found myself on the wrong side of a pro-Jaime thread though (aruging that Cersei's magic vagina isn't to blame for everything sometimes gets me some flak).  

And I do really mostly try to keep out of Sandor threads (or Book!Tyrion threads).  Cuz like I said he just bugs the crap out of me in a somewhat irrational way...  Usually it's only when I'm following something out of interest and then I can't keep my damn mouth shut.  

Are you biased? Yes you are. But, in all fairness to you, you are completely reasonable. And, generally, I don’t see you sticking to positions that are completely ridiculous.

Now I’ll get to the point and get to the question you’re really asking or what you are wanting me to admit:Does OldGimEye have biases?

And the straight up, horseshit free answer would be: Yes. Yes he does. Guilty (again. So I guess sentence me to 180 days of reading pro-Aerys Threads? Though, I think being sentenced to 3 years at hard labor would be kinder).

I’m sure it’s shocking to hear OldGimEye has biases, as I am sure that wouldn’t be a normal thing for posters on this forum. So people may need to sit down for a minute after reading this shocking revelation.

Seriously though, it’s completely reasonable for people to keep my biases in mind while reading my arguments, just as it’s reasonable for me to keep other people’s biases in mind when reading their arguments.

But, I think, at the end of the day, arguments do have to be backed by logic and facts. And if you don’t try to use logic and facts, then your ending up in crack smoking territory and nobody will take seriously what you have to say. So there is incentive to maintain a bit of credibility.

Now it’s true that I’ve never directly criticized a post describing the Blackwater situation as being “sexy”. But, it’s also true that I have never endorsed such a post either, as that would make me very uncomfortable. And, I can’t recall ever, attacking another post which challenged the assertion that the Blackwater scene was “sexy”. Where I would tend to interject myself on those type of arguments would be on the rape issue.

Also, the take I’ve given on the Blackwater events, on this thread, is not new. That’s pretty much been my basic take for awhile. And I have expressed my opinion on that on other occasions.

Perhaps the fact that I haven’t directly challenged the Blackwater is “sexy” argument does show some bias on my part. But just remember, it’s never been a piece of ground that I’ve been willing to fight and die upon. I do have my biases. But, I won’t take positions on things that I think are real stretch.

But, yeah, you could say I'm a bit hesitant to jump on the anti-Sandor bandwagon. Not that is probably a secret or anything. But, yeah, if you want the admission, you got it.

One other thing about not directly challenging the Blackwater is “sexy” argument: Do I really have to? Surely, somebody like yourself is more than capable in pointing out the problems with that argument. So why should I spend a lot of time on it, when I know it will be capably challenged by somebody else, and I have other issues that I feel might not be handled properly?

Also, are you surprised by my take on the Blackwater scene? And if you are, why didn’t you ask me earlier to explain my opinion about it?

But also, yeah, it’s true I can be pretty hard on Dany, and her fandom in particular, because a lot of the issues surrounding her character deal with some pretty big topics that I have strong opinions about, like the use of collective punishment, the justifications for war, the desirability of despotism and absolutism verus a more rule based society and so forth. So like, when I read some theory put forth about how some character is just so god damned special that she can just invade any society that she pleases, I’m like I can’t even.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

1. Okay, with respect to the different moral norms between Stark and Bolton, I think it’s more of a case of the Boltons not following them. Roose Bolton isn’t a stupid man. He knows what the general moral norms are in Westeros and in the North. He knows you’re not supposed to go around raping smallfolk and violating the Guest Right. He just chooses not to do so. Moral norms are not applicable to one house. All the nobility know what they generally are. Some follow them better than others, whether in Westeros generally or in the North.

Ok. 

So, if you had a character, let's say they were a Bolton bannerman...  and let's say they saw a bunch of Bolton assholes rapin' and murderin' (and heck, let's not pretend that some of Robb's men didn't do some rapin' in the Westerlands).  If that dude, while still fighting for the Boltons and even killing the occasional child, was like "Bah.  The North is crap.  The Old Gods can go to hell.  The North is a cesspool, nad it's leaders are a bunch of hypocrites with their "honor" and their "old way". 

Would you think that guy was "telling it like it was?"  That he was the only guy who "got it"?  I wouldn't think so.  I think he would be guilty of massive generalization fallacy.  I don't understand why is hypocrisy such an awful crime while generalizing your own shit over everyone and their mom is not?  

Maybe it just comes down to personal preference as to which particular type of illogic is more annoying to each of us?  And you also have a third group of asoaif fans who hate people who are "naive".  

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

2. Technically there is nothing wrong with the professed ideals of the knighthood. In fact, knights are supposed to uphold the best norms in society. At least those norms that regulate the conduct of warriors and the use of violence. The problem isn’t the moral code knights are supposed to have. It’s that so many knights fail at it. And it’s not just a few bad apples here and there. It’s rampant. That’s what pisses Sandor off.

3. Sandor having a low opinion of knighthood isn’t the same thing as him rejecting the moral norms which the institution of knighthood claims to have.

I disagree with your take on knighthood. It’s supposed to be a warrior elite which maintains and upholds the highest ethical values for warriors and soldiers. They are supposed to be setting the example for the common soldiery.

AFAIK Common soldiery don't even have the list of "guidelines" to go by.  They are baiscally told - here's a weapon - do as your commander says. 

Knights are told, yah you're a warrior, but now that you're inducted into the elite, and you'll sometimes be a commander and have other men's lives in your hand, here's a bunch of other stuff you have to keep in mind when giving orders and when acting. 

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I wouldn’t disagree that both their respective acts were bad. My problem is when people try to condemn both men, unless they are just limiting themselves to being Jon, Davos, Brienne, and Ned fans or whatever.

I actually don't mind if they condemn both men.  Even if my instinct is to try to defend the actions of certain characters.  But yes, I suppose to be entirely morally consistent, they "should" only be fans of relatively innocent characters Jon/Davos/Brienne/Bran/Sansa...  But whatever.  We're all human.  

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I think there are some cases where people have acted so atrociously that it would be hard to forgive them. Like say if Ramsay tried to turn over a new leaf. I don’t think I could forgive him for repeatedly terrorizing peasant girls for sport.

It seems like he is one of those unfortunate individuals who actually is psychopathic and sadistic.  It's hard to imagine him ever getting to the first step - can he really "decide to change in his heart"?  I don't think it's physically possible. 

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I’m sure we can figure out the logistics of this. It won’t cost you much. I’m fine with a Milwaukee's Best or something like that.

Nice. I'm sorry but if somehow things go the other way I'm a bit more costly as I'm one of those assholes who only drinks IPAs. 

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And I think most Sandor fans understand that he is prone to engaging in hyperbole at times.

When people talk about Sandor’s honesty, I think they generally mean his commentary about knighthood and the overall shitiness of Westeros society. You can say that he over does it, but to a large extent he is saying what needs to be said.

I mean maybe.  But that's not how he's characterized by people.

And that tends to get my goat.  Like I read a thread about how people describe this guy's best qualities and it's like...  really... the best quality of this guy, who lies constantly for one reason or another, is his "honesty"...  I mean its really hard to not say something.  The Snark must be released!!

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

The fact is that Sandor gets to the essence of what knighthood is really about. He’s stripping away all the pageantry, taking lady’s favors and ribbons around swords, and all that horseshit, and describing what knights really do.

Yah they are killers  - and I agree that is an important point.  But they are killers with a code of conduct they are meant to follow.  

Yeah, The lady's favors and ribbons I will agree with Sandor is basically pageantry and bullshit.  It's propaganda and nationalism more than anything. 

But the stuff that Sansa say about them in defense, that's not bullshit.  It's the code of conduct, that everyone in Westeros basically knows about.  It's the shit that everyone who sees a knight do something wrong, can throw back in their face (see your Tyrion quote).  

People definitely think much more poorly of  a knight that breaks his vows than they would of a regular soldier.  

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

In some ways, Sandor is kind of like the William T. Sherman of Westeros. And I’ve always had a bit of an appreciation for Sherman. Quotes like:

Enjoyed.  I can see the Sandor parallels.  I do believe in addition to medieval and renaissance stuff there is a ton of Civil War that influences tehse books (GRRM is after all an American). 

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Well yes, his language to both girls is often problematic. Then, again, he never sent both girls to spend a little quality time with Shavepate either. Just Sayin.

You know I'm not gonna try to justify Dany torturing young women so don't even try.  

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Also, your comments are more on the mark with Sansa, than they are with Arya. Not that I think what he always says to Arya is cool. But, Arya wasn’t above starting a little shit herself. Like when Sandor lashed out at her, after his trial by battle was over.

Also one point about Sandor coming to respect Arya, that you might have forgotten about or missed. Arya looks Sandor in the face, unlike many others.

I think that Sandor needed to experience her anger, though, even if she's not totally morally consistent (though she's not bad for a 9 year old).  Yes, Sansa's empathy brought him a certain distance - but Arya's rage reminds him of another way (besides cynicism and drinking oneself into a stupor) that one can react when they see injustice. 

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

No, I mean her actually attempting to kill him. Like her grabbing a knife at the end of his trial by combat and then later wanting to bash his head in with a rock.

I mean she is 9...  I guess I didn't take those attempts very seriously.  But then again she had already killed some people by then.  

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

LOL. Didn't you know that I believe he is The PTWP? The Pooch That Was Promised, that is.

Yes, I remember the discussion. I believe you tried to make the intended rape argument.

I asked you to pinpoint where, in your opinion, did the intent to commit rape form in his mind. And to support that with evidence. You retorted that rape didn’t doesn’t require intent. I retorted back that maybe true, but usually an attempted rape requires specific intent. That pretty much ended the argument, if I recall correctly.

Yah I think my view is now that he didn't have specific intent.  But that if she had reacted a certain way that he feared she would (like he was a monster) he probabaly was ready to "show her" what a monster he really was.  Not that this would involve rape, necessarily, but it could.  Then we run into your unprovable problem.  And I'll concede, since we don't have Minority Report technology we can't know what he would have done in a situation which never occurred.  

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

You can write “ to any reasonable outsider that's what it would have looked like”, but you know, at the end of the day, the so called reasonable outsider needs to explain her reasoning process. And for that reasoning process, to hold water, it actually needs to have a theory supported by facts. Just because the situation “felt rapy” doesn’t cut the mustard.

Are we talking about me or about an actual physical person who might come upon them?

If you mean the latter, I would argue any reasonable outsider is going to assume that is a rape in progress, if they walk in at the point where the Hound says "Give me a song little bird" (that is after he pushed her onto the bed and heald the knife to her throat).  Now, Sansa could decide not to press charges, in the interrupted attempted rape accusation, but we both know a lot of the time that actual victims of sexual assault make that choice.  Does that mean an attempted rape occurred?  The answer's still we cant' prove it - like a lot of sexual assaults it's one of those "yeah we'll never know" unsatisfying outcomes.  We can't conclude as outsiders "oh he's just a gruff guy who can't express himself properly".

If you mean the former, we have the minority report problem.  Hypotheticals.  

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Finally, you could say, well maybe if Sansa hadn’t handled the situation well, he might have raped her or formed the intent to do so. But, that’s just pure speculation about an event that never occurred and has little bearing on the issue of whether or not whether the intent to rape ever formed in his mind, until he left Sansa’s room. Maybe he might have went that far. But, nobody really knows.

I'm saying he didn't konw what the fuck he was going to do, but it seems to me based on his demeanor as if he was ready to be very angry if she treated him like a monster.  Which she didn't.  And he knew that because her song was very effective at diffusing his anger.  

And yes he probably had some notion of bringing her with him, given he did make that offer.  

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

The point here is that while I find a lot of his actions with Sansa, at the Blackwater problematic, I don’t think it should condemn him from having any future with Sansa. That was the point.

I would not like Sansa to have to be saddled with a drunk angry person for their best of a bunch of shitty romantic options, personally.  But drunk angry people are pretty much the worst, IMO.  And if he's recovered, then whatever.  I'll be fine with it I think.  

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

With respect to why Dany gave the order she did in Astapor, it could be for the reason you suggest. Or maybe, it was because Dany had a collective punishment problem. Dany does tend to have a tendency to see people as being collectively guilty, until she has an eureka moment about the problem of collective guilt, which happened because of the death of Hazzea.

I think collective punishment was a problem in Mereen for sure.  Astapor was the midst of a battle - so I do think there's some difference.  My reading was it's more like innocent bystanders than collective punishment.  Like she needed to get control of the plaza of punishment, which was full of a mix of combatants and non combatants, and she gave an order that should hopefully get rid of most the combatants and not too many non-combatants.  

Mereen was totally collective punishment.  A symbolic one, meant to scare the former slavers into submission. It probably did raise morale among her freed men, but it completely destroyed any hope that she could make peace with the "noble" houses of Mereen. 

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

You know, I hadn’t really thought about it. But, give me enough time, and I’m sure I can engage in all types of ass pullery to explain Sandor’s bad actions as just “being plot driven”. But, I am not inclined to do that. I just take Sandor’s actions as they are given and deal with them and don’t try to blame “the plot” for his fuck ups.

Fair enough.

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Are you biased? Yes you are. But, in all fairness to you, you are completely reasonable. And, generally, I don’t see you sticking to positions that are completely ridiculous.

Y TY 

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Now I’ll get to the point and get to the question you’re really asking or what you are wanting me to admit:Does OldGimEye have biases?

And the straight up, horseshit free answer would be: Yes. Yes he does. Guilty (again. So I guess sentence me to 180 days of reading pro-Aerys Threads? Though, I think being sentenced to 3 years at hard labor would be kinder).

Thankfully I don't think there are enough pro-Aerys threads to sentence us to.  Or maybe I've just avoided them well enough. 

Though there are a few people in the A+J threads who like to go one about how Aerys and Johanna was a true love story or some shit.  Ew.  

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I’m sure it’s shocking to hear OldGimEye has biases, as I am sure that wouldn’t be a normal thing for posters on this forum. So people may need to sit down for a minute after reading this shocking revelation.

Seriously though, it’s completely reasonable for people to keep my biases in mind while reading my arguments, just as it’s reasonable for me to keep other people’s biases in mind when reading their arguments.

Ok.  But I do think you are maybe a leetle bit free with the hypocrisy/inconsistency arguments, if you understand this is also true about yourself on some occasions.   

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Now it’s true that I’ve never directly criticized a post describing the Blackwater situation as being “sexy”. But, it’s also true that I have never endorsed such a post either, as that would make me very uncomfortable. And, I can’t recall ever, attacking another post which challenged the assertion that the Blackwater scene was “sexy”. Where I would tend to interject myself on those type of arguments would be on the rape issue.

Also, the take I’ve given on the Blackwater events, on this thread, is not new. That’s pretty much been my basic take for awhile. And I have expressed my opinion on that on other occasions.

Perhaps the fact that I haven’t directly challenged the Blackwater is “sexy” argument does show some bias on my part. But just remember, it’s never been a piece of ground that I’ve been willing to fight and die upon. I do have my biases. But, I won’t take positions on things that I think are real stretch.

One other thing about not directly challenging the Blackwater is “sexy” argument: Do I really have to? Surely, somebody like yourself is more than capable in pointing out the problems with that argument. So why should I spend a lot of time on it, when I know it will be capably challenged by somebody else, and I have other issues that I feel might not be handled properly?

I usually leave the critiques of the "Dany do what she wants!" people to you...  so, point taken.  I think once or twice I've tried to back you up tho.  

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Also, are you surprised by my take on the Blackwater scene? And if you are, why didn’t you ask me earlier to explain my opinion about it?

Well, as we went over above, we did have a conversation about it where you were defending it a lot.  So I may have erroneously assumed you believed there was no problem at all with it.  

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

But also, yeah, it’s true I can be pretty hard on Dany, and her fandom in particular, because a lot of the issues surrounding her character deal with some pretty big topics that I have strong opinions about, like the use of collective punishment, the justifications for war, the desirability of despotism and absolutism verus a more rule based society and so forth. So like, when I read some theory put forth about how some character is just so god damned special that she can just invade any society that she pleases, I’m like I can’t even.

I know the feeling. 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

Thanks to you @Blue-Eyed Wolf I spent more time that I would like to admit reading Re-read project's threads on Sandor and Sansa

Sandor definitely has some reasons to dislike Tyrion. During the BoBW scene he said:

Quote

"Bloody dwarf. Should have killed him. Years ago."
"He's dead, they say."
"Dead? No. Bugger that. I don't want him dead." He cast the empty flagon aside. "I want him burned. If the gods are good, they'll burn him..."

Ok, Sandor maybe mad that Tyrion assigned him to lead sorties right next to the wildfire, but why he speaks about years ago? On the other side, Tyrion doesn't have such dislike for Sandor, Tyrion doesn't give him much thought.

[Masha]

5 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Thanks to you @Blue-Eyed Wolf I spent more time that I would like to admit reading Re-read project's threads on Sandor and Sansa

Sandor definitely has some reasons to dislike Tyrion. During the BoBW scene he said:

Ok, Sandor maybe mad that Tyrion assigned him to lead sorties right next to the wildfire, but why he speaks about years ago? On the other side, Tyrion doesn't have such dislike for Sandor, Tyrion doesn't give him much thought.

 

Not sure if it isn't just venting and ranting or has actually something to do with Tysha like some here are implying. I think it has to do with 1) Sandor blaming Tyrion  - assigning him to lead a sortie into fire again and again during the battle of Blackwater - for his eventual defection and loss of his status, position and earnings, 2) Sandor hating everything Lannister and King related and Tyrion was both - Lannister and brother of Queen 3) Plain jealousy, Sandor didn't see Tyrion's true situation in his family all he saw was deformed dwarf who was born into right family and had everything he didn't wealth, status, freedom, love of older brother, while he, Sandor, had to fight for everything and still people preferred his brother to him.

[A Ghost of Someone]

I do not know if Sansa will marry the Hound in books or show but they will meet again. On the show, I think he and the info he has on Littlefinger (as if what is already known to Jon, Sansa and Lord Royce is not enough) to have him killed. The only question is, what other damage can Littlefinger do to Sansa before he finally meets his death?

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

12 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Thanks to you @Blue-Eyed Wolf I spent more time that I would like to admit reading Re-read project's threads on Sandor and Sansa

It's worth it.  Helps you get a lot more out of the reading and catch things you might have missed.  =D

 

12 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Ok, Sandor maybe mad that Tyrion assigned him to lead sorties right next to the wildfire, but why he speaks about years ago? On the other side, Tyrion doesn't have such dislike for Sandor, Tyrion doesn't give him much thought.

I guess it could just be he's been Cersei's guard forever and maybe some of that has rubbed off.  While Tyrion's a popular character with readers and show watchers, there's not too many actual characters that love Tyrion.  He doesn't really have genuine friends.  He has witty banter with some, but most of the time he overcompensates for his insecurities by making sure everyone knows he's the smartest, sharpest guy in the room.  His intellect and his words are his best weapon, but also gets him into a lot of trouble.  Trying to make people look stupid is not a recipe for likability. It's not like they don't have things in common.  They're both second sons that have to make their own way, both disinherited.  Both are considered ugly and are despised by many.  I think the difference is, while Tyrion is fully aware of his ugliness, he does have that Lannister blind spot of thinking his shit doesn't stink.  It doesn't seem like he thinks positively of any Lannisters, except for maybe Myrcella and Tommen.  While they don't have much "on screen" interaction, there's probably an assumption on Tyrion's part that the Hound is just Cersei's man and treats him accordingly.            

[StarkGurl]

Been a lurker for many years but first post so please be gentle! I typed this on my phone so apologies in advance.

 

I feel that sandor rightfully gets alot of stick about killing Mycha but I always got the impression that he was emotional about it but was trying to act tough in front of Ned. The glittering eyes suggested to me that he was upset about it, and let's face it sandor is a bit of a cry baby and hides his emotions behind harsh words and humour. Sandor didn't know Ned and was hardly in the position to speak out against the Queen and Prince's orders for risk of it being brought to their attention and sandor being punished for it. We don't get his POV so only see what he allows Ned to see, not his true thoughts. Even myself personally when im upset/ashamed I laugh and try to shrug it off as a defence mechanism so I suppose this might be why I see it that way and sympathise with his response. 

 

It's pretty clear to me that no matter which side of the sandor and sansa debate you fall under these two have a connection. Others have pointed out these quotes with lovely analysis so I won't cover old ground. I myself feel like their relationship started as more paternal which is hinted at by the strong hands on her shoulder that she thought were her father's. Then as time pressed on it developed further into an odd sort of respect and affection. He gave her advice and truth and she showed him that even when your abused you don't need to be cruel to survive or let them change who you are.

 

As this thread was started talking about end game I will add my thoughts on where i think their story might be going below. 

1. Cersie finds out where sansa is and sends Gregor to kill her. Sandor fights his brother not out of vengeance but to protect his little bird. Sandor is badly wounded during the fight, Sansa goes all shewolf and sets Gregor on fire before he finishes Sandor off. Sansa and Sandor have a sweet moment as he's laid dieing and maybe share a kiss.

This fulfills both the Bran and ghost of high heart prophecy. 

2. (warning tinfoil) Sansa marches out of the Vale and reclaims winterfell and the North rallys for the war of the dawn. She is pressured into marrying but decides she will choose her own husband and Jon/Petyr will not force her. She has many many suitors which she shows no interest in as they all want her for her claim, paralleling Lysa Arryn.

Sandor plays a key role in the war against the others as a skilled warrior and earns the respect of his peers. I also suspect that a Dragon will go awol and in GRRMs twisted sense of irony it will be Sandor that slays it having to face his biggest fear.

After the war Westeros will have faced heavy casualties and only a few have survived. Jon will try to reward him for his achievements and Sandor will turn them down saying his place is protecting Sansa. She offers him her hand instead.

This covers all the wedding/cloak foreshadowing between the pair and i have always felt the cloak under her summer silks was a hint that they would connect after the long night. 

I have also always felt that elder brothers speech was foreshadowing of were Sandor was heading. That he would find pride in service and joy I'm victory, and that he would love and be loved himself. Of course this is asoiaf so he will probably die horribly by being burned to death!!

[Meera of Tarth]

18 minutes ago, StarkGurl said:

Been a lurker for many years but first post so please be gentle! I typed this on my phone so apologies in advance.

 

I feel that sandor rightfully gets alot of stick about killing Mycha but I always got the impression that he was emotional about it but was trying to act tough in front of Ned. The glittering eyes suggested to me that he was upset about it, and let's face it sandor is a bit of a cry baby and hides his emotions behind harsh words and humour. Sandor didn't know Ned and was hardly in the position to speak out against the Queen and Prince's orders for risk of it being brought to their attention and sandor being punished for it. We don't get his POV so only see what he allows Ned to see, not his true thoughts. Even myself personally when im upset/ashamed I laugh and try to shrug it off as a defence mechanism so I suppose this might be why I see it that way and sympathise with his response. 

 

It's pretty clear to me that no matter which side of the sandor and sansa debate you fall under these two have a connection. Others have pointed out these quotes with lovely analysis so I won't cover old ground. I myself feel like their relationship started as more paternal which is hinted at by the strong hands on her shoulder that she thought were her father's. Then as time pressed on it developed further into an odd sort of respect and affection. He gave her advice and truth and she showed him that even when your abused you don't need to be cruel to survive or let them change who you are.

 

As this thread was started talking about end game I will add my thoughts on where i think their story might be going below. 

1. Cersie finds out where sansa is and sends Gregor to kill her. Sandor fights his brother not out of vengeance but to protect his little bird. Sandor is badly wounded during the fight, Sansa goes all shewolf and sets Gregor on fire before he finishes Sandor off. Sansa and Sandor have a sweet moment as he's laid dieing and maybe share a kiss.

This fulfills both the Bran and ghost of high heart prophecy. 

2. (warning tinfoil) Sansa marches out of the Vale and reclaims winterfell and the North rallys for the war of the dawn. She is pressured into marrying but decides she will choose her own husband and Jon/Petyr will not force her. She has many many suitors which she shows no interest in as they all want her for her claim, paralleling Lysa Arryn.

Sandor plays a key role in the war against the others as a skilled warrior and earns the respect of his peers. I also suspect that a Dragon will go awol and in GRRMs twisted sense of irony it will be Sandor that slays it having to face his biggest fear.

After the war Westeros will have faced heavy casualties and only a few have survived. Jon will try to reward him for his achievements and Sandor will turn them down saying his place is protecting Sansa. She offers him her hand instead.

This covers all the wedding/cloak foreshadowing between the pair and i have always felt the cloak under her summer silks was a hint that they would connect after the long night. 

I have also always felt that elder brothers speech was foreshadowing of were Sandor was heading. That he would find pride in service and joy I'm victory, and that he would love and be loved himself. Of course this is asoiaf so he will probably die horribly by being burned to death!!

welcome to the forum! That was an interesting point of view to read

[Bear Claw]

4 hours ago, StarkGurl said:

Been a lurker for many years but first post so please be gentle! I typed this on my phone so apologies in advance.

 

I feel that sandor rightfully gets alot of stick about killing Mycha but I always got the impression that he was emotional about it but was trying to act tough in front of Ned. The glittering eyes suggested to me that he was upset about it, and let's face it sandor is a bit of a cry baby and hides his emotions behind harsh words and humour. Sandor didn't know Ned and was hardly in the position to speak out against the Queen and Prince's orders for risk of it being brought to their attention and sandor being punished for it. We don't get his POV so only see what he allows Ned to see, not his true thoughts. Even myself personally when im upset/ashamed I laugh and try to shrug it off as a defence mechanism so I suppose this might be why I see it that way and sympathise with his response. 

 

It's pretty clear to me that no matter which side of the sandor and sansa debate you fall under these two have a connection. Others have pointed out these quotes with lovely analysis so I won't cover old ground. I myself feel like their relationship started as more paternal which is hinted at by the strong hands on her shoulder that she thought were her father's. Then as time pressed on it developed further into an odd sort of respect and affection. He gave her advice and truth and she showed him that even when your abused you don't need to be cruel to survive or let them change who you are.

 

As this thread was started talking about end game I will add my thoughts on where i think their story might be going below. 

1. Cersie finds out where sansa is and sends Gregor to kill her. Sandor fights his brother not out of vengeance but to protect his little bird. Sandor is badly wounded during the fight, Sansa goes all shewolf and sets Gregor on fire before he finishes Sandor off. Sansa and Sandor have a sweet moment as he's laid dieing and maybe share a kiss.

This fulfills both the Bran and ghost of high heart prophecy. 

2. (warning tinfoil) Sansa marches out of the Vale and reclaims winterfell and the North rallys for the war of the dawn. She is pressured into marrying but decides she will choose her own husband and Jon/Petyr will not force her. She has many many suitors which she shows no interest in as they all want her for her claim, paralleling Lysa Arryn.

Sandor plays a key role in the war against the others as a skilled warrior and earns the respect of his peers. I also suspect that a Dragon will go awol and in GRRMs twisted sense of irony it will be Sandor that slays it having to face his biggest fear.

After the war Westeros will have faced heavy casualties and only a few have survived. Jon will try to reward him for his achievements and Sandor will turn them down saying his place is protecting Sansa. She offers him her hand instead.

This covers all the wedding/cloak foreshadowing between the pair and i have always felt the cloak under her summer silks was a hint that they would connect after the long night. 

I have also always felt that elder brothers speech was foreshadowing of were Sandor was heading. That he would find pride in service and joy I'm victory, and that he would love and be loved himself. Of course this is asoiaf so he will probably die horribly by being burned to death!!

I have been reviewing this season, and now, I don't think Sansa and Sandor are going to reunite for romance, To me she has really matured/changed, I just don't see the same dynamic that they had. I also don't know what the new dynamic would be either. Show Sansa seems miles away from anything that I read in the book. I think that it will be like they are meeting for the first time, and I don't see how it would develop. 

[StarkGurl]

 

17 hours ago, Bear Claw said:

I have been reviewing this season, and now, I don't think Sansa and Sandor are going to reunite for romance, To me she has really matured/changed, I just don't see the same dynamic that they had. I also don't know what the new dynamic would be either. Show Sansa seems miles away from anything that I read in the book. I think that it will be like they are meeting for the first time, and I don't see how it would develop. 

I'm inclined to agree with this about the show. Her arc and personality is so far removed from the books that she is past the point of no return in the show for me. Unfortunately I think she is only going to get worse with a book storyline built on subtlety I'm not surprised D&D have messed it up.