Was Daeron II really Dragonknight's son?

[Valens]

Given how different he was from his "official father", do you think he really was Aemon's son? I think it is possible, either that or he was just much like his mother and nothing like Aegon. Naerys was obviously a noble, good hearted woman. And delicate, like Daeron was delicate physically and mentally, I mean he was bookish and not a boisterous, macho guy like his father. Dragonknight was a warrior, but he was nobler than his brother. Which wasn't that hard, but he really was noble. He sacrificed himself for Daeron I and nearly paid with his life for it.

[Lion of the West]

20 minutes ago, Valens said:

Given how different he was from his "official father", do you think he really was Aemon's son? I think it is possible, either that or he was just much like his mother and nothing like Aegon. Naerys was obviously a noble, good hearted woman. And delicate, like Daeron was delicate physically and mentally, I mean he was bookish and not a boisterous, macho guy like his father. Dragonknight was a warrior, but he was nobler than his brother. Which wasn't that hard, but he really was noble. He sacrificed himself for Daeron I and nearly paid with his life for it.

I will say that no, Daeron is not the son of the Dragonknight and there are plenty of close relatives in the books who are not very similar to each other. If we also look how a predecessor's actions can shape his successor we can also see a trend of a bad ruler followed by a good ruler, or at least a ruler who does a 180 degree turn in policies in relation to his forebearer.

And if Daeron II was the son of the Dragonknight it would of course mean that the Blackfyres are the correct heirs to the throne, and I'm not ready to accept that. No more than that the Dragonknight would have forsken his Kingsguard vows to sire children with the queen, when he was ready to give his life for a king he don't seems to have liked very much.

[Drekinn]

I'm sure Aemon was romanticized a lot but the truth is always somewhere in the middle. I just can't see him fathering a bastard. And given how affectionate he was for his sister he'd be close to Daeron but unfortunately we have no accounts of their interactions.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I am not sure why but I do believe that he was Aemon's bastard. 

[shockwave]

there is little actual proof that Daeron is Aemon's son. Only Aegon the Unworthy saying so.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

5 minutes ago, shockwave said:

 

there is little actual proof that Daeron is Aemon's son. Only Aegon the Unworthy saying so.

 

That, and that Aemon and Naerys were widely believed to have been in love with each other.

 

 

[Ser Joe of Generic Hall]

There is not enough evidence to support either argument. However, whatever little evidence we have favors the stance that Daeron was in fact the son of Aemon the Dragonknight as opposed to Aegon IV. One of the most convincing clues is that Daemon Blackfyre didn't rebel for over a decade after Aegon IV's death. This indicates to me that there must've been a sudden and startling revelation concerning King Daeron II's legitimacy. One doesn't simply wait twelve years and then say "Nah, on second thought, maybe I should be king after all." If Jon Arryn and Stannis are any clue, people tend to hold off on the rebellion thing until it is absolutely necessary. Whatever the truth is, he was still just as Targaryen as Daemon, so it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Daemon would've been smart to hold his tongue.

[Lord Varys]

No, he was the son of the Unworthy.

The story of Daeron Falseborn was only spread by Aegon IV after both Aemon and Naerys had died. And back when Aegon and Naerys married nobody complained for years and decades. This story was only invented when Aegon and Daeron's relationship got strained. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

22 hours ago, Ser Joe of Generic Hall said:

This indicates to me that there must've been a sudden and startling revelation concerning King Daeron II's legitimacy.

There are all sorts of reasons why someone would decide to press their claim after years of not doing so. It could have been that the idea seemed more plausible than it had previously, that the political situation seemed more reasonable; or on a personal level some particular wrong was done by the king to initiate it. My reading of it is that there were a variety of factors that led to the rebellion – discontent among second tier nobles, the Dornish alliance, people around Daemon (Bittersteel, Fireball) pushing for it…etc.

Given what we know of Westros, and human nature generally, I would be very surprised if the only reason was a sudden revelation about legitimacy. I don’t think it would particularly matter to Daemon to be honest.

The king’s legitimacy had been a matter of speculation for years, so, if Daemon suddenly came across some unequivocal proof, why did he not share it? He had zero reason to keep it quiet.

[Masha]

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, he was the son of the Unworthy.

The story of Daeron Falseborn was only spread by Aegon IV after both Aemon and Naerys had died. And back when Aegon and Naerys married nobody complained for years and decades. This story was only invented when Aegon and Daeron's relationship got strained. 

Often when parents are on one extremely, children take on the others, partially in rebellion and partially determined to be like their parents. Aegon IV was spoiled and Viserys was probably kind of like his brother in character, though not as gloomy, but very strict and ordered, and Aegon was determined to do what he wanted. Daeron probably disliked his father for mistreating his mother and was ashamed, and was determined to be nice and good not like him, sort of like Tywin turned out so not be like his father Tytos. 

Story was started by Aegon IV when he realized that people like Daeron better than him and were waiting for him to die, and both Naerys and Aemon were long dead by then.

On 7/21/2016 at 10:56 AM, Ser Joe of Generic Hall said:

There is not enough evidence to support either argument. However, whatever little evidence we have favors the stance that Daeron was in fact the son of Aemon the Dragonknight as opposed to Aegon IV. One of the most convincing clues is that Daemon Blackfyre didn't rebel for over a decade after Aegon IV's death. This indicates to me that there must've been a sudden and startling revelation concerning King Daeron II's legitimacy. One doesn't simply wait twelve years and then say "Nah, on second thought, maybe I should be king after all." If Jon Arryn and Stannis are any clue, people tend to hold off on the rebellion thing until it is absolutely necessary. Whatever the truth is, he was still just as Targaryen as Daemon, so it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Daemon would've been smart to hold his tongue.

Daemon's main grievance was that he wanted Daeron to allow him to marry again to his sister while keeping his first wife's holdings. (BTW other than Daemon's words and his supporters romantic fantasies, there was never any indication that Daenaerys herself actually liked Daemon).  In fact, I believe she was Daemon's first attempt to seize the throne, because I don't believe Daemon was that much in love with her, he just wanted to marry her because unlike him she was legitimate Targ and by marrying her, he could start contesting Daeron's rule and children by spreading rumors about Daeron's bastardy combining with his marrying a non-Targ, Daemon's claim could be considered greater. Take two bastards, one married a legitimate Targ and another a Dornish woman, who would you pick as more legitimate?

Once that failed he cultivated his alliances with Marshes lords and warmongers who hated Daeron's alliance to Dorne and peaceful rule. It took time for him to get himself going in a full scale rebellion.

Daemon actually started his rebellion when Bittersteel's final break with the Iron Throne came about and he joined him. Bittersteel was the mastermind for the whole thing.

[BricksAndSparrows]

On 7/20/2016 at 8:52 AM, Valens said:

Given how different he was from his "official father", do you think he really was Aemon's son?

Keep in mind, Bloodraven was Aegon IV's son as well...

But I would say it's possible. The talk about it in the World book. I don't think it is something we will ever learn for certain. Not in the primary series, anyway.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Absolutely: Daenerys (and Jon) descends from the Dragonknight. Aegon descends from the Unworthy.

In Samwell I, Feast 5, we learned that Daeron II was rumored to have been fathered by Aemon Targaryen of the Kingsguard called the Dragonknight, and not by Aegon IV the Unworthy.

And at that point, we recalled that even Maester Aemon leant credibility to the rumor when he told Jon Snow of his own heritage way back in Game. And we remembered that Sansa had told us back in Storm that Naerys was Aegon's sister and queen, and that he never harmed her, perhaps out of fear for their brother the Dragonknight.

And the very attentive reader would have recalled way back in Game, when Sansa was about to go riding with Joffrey near the Trident, she told us that Prince Aemon the Dragonknight championed Queen Naerys's honor against evil Ser Morgil's slanders. A little later, when The Ned told Sansa that her engagement with Joffrey would soon be over, she suggested that Queen Naerys loved Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. In Clash, she suggested that Prince Aemon the Dragonknight cried the day Princess Naerys wed his brother Aegon.

A song was sung about the romance during the Battle of the Blackwater. As Meera was telling Bran about the Tourney at Harrenhal, Bran was telling us that the Dragonknight once won a tourney as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister the queen of love and beauty in place of the king's mistress.

A few chapters later in Feast, Arys Oakheart suggested that the tale of Prince Aemon's treason with Queen Naerys was only that, a tale, a lie his brother told when he wished to set his trueborn son aside in favor of his bastard. However, it was clear that Arys was fighting his lust for Arianne, and losing miserably, so his denial lacked at least some credibility. 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

On July 21, 2016 at 11:35 AM, Lord Varys said:

No, he was the son of the Unworthy.

The story of Daeron Falseborn was only spread by Aegon IV after both Aemon and Naerys had died. And back when Aegon and Naerys married nobody complained for years and decades. This story was only invented when Aegon and Daeron's relationship got strained. 

This.

The rumor only started after Daeron 2 was old enough to realize his dad was a pig and obviously after Aemon died. (Although Aemon would never have harmed his Aegon unless it was to protect Naerys IMHO) 

What's more likely a false rumor? Or impregnating the king's wife-sister? 

But still very very possible, as others have mentioned there's just not enough info. But I'd be betting money on Aegon 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

On 7/21/2016 at 11:35 AM, Lord Varys said:

No, he was the son of the Unworthy.

The story of Daeron Falseborn was only spread by Aegon IV after both Aemon and Naerys had died. And back when Aegon and Naerys married nobody complained for years and decades. This story was only invented when Aegon and Daeron's relationship got strained. 

Yeah I agree with this. Aegon the Unworthy dismembered a guy who slept with one of his mistresses, as I recall. It doesn't make sense that he would let Aemon and Naerys continue an affair, even if he had a whiff of suspicion.

[Ser Joe of Generic Hall]

What's funny is that Daemon's argument for Daeron's illegitimacy would actually not hurt Daeron's claim because he'd still be a full blood Targaryen bastard. 

Wouldn't it be even funnier if Aegon was actually not Viserys' son? Turns out, and here's another Lyseni knot, Viserys' queen, Larra Rogarre, was unhappy in her marriage and had actually left Westeros well before Viserys was crowned king. Lysandro Rogare the Magnificent, Larra's father, was richer and more powerful than the Iron Bank, and named himself First Magister for Life. To make it even more complicated, Lysandro's brother, Drazenko was the Prunce Consort of Aliandra Martell, Princess of Dorne. 

No wonder people like Daemon were suspicious of the Dornish. Unfortunately, I believe the more sinister plot comes from Lys.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Yeah I agree with this. Aegon the Unworthy dismembered a guy who slept with one of his mistresses, as I recall. It doesn't make sense that he would let Aemon and Naerys continue an affair, even if he had a whiff of suspicion.

Yeah, if he had had a reason to rid himself of Daeron, Aemon, and Naerys he would have done so. And if he had proof that Daeron was not his son he would have disowned him most definitely.

It is much more likely that he knew he was his son but decided to make his life miserable and ruin the future of his dynasty just because he was pissed that he was dying and didn't want anybody else to have a happy life after he was gone.

[LIVIA]

I suppose he was. GRRM about Naerys:

Quote

only her son Daeron and her brother Aemon knew how to make her laugh

But she also had a daugher, Daenerys, who was unquestionably fathered by Aegon. Yes, Naerys died when Daenerys was only 6 years old, but mothers are usually quite taken with their little children, especially born so late. Why did she love son more than daughter? The only reason I see is because Daenerys wasn't sired by her beloved man, unlike Daeron.

Moreover, considering the fact that four Naerys' sons by Aegon were stillborn or died few hours after birth, it's possible that this couple couldn't have a living boy at all because of genetical incompatibility (Naerys' son by Aemon was not strong and healthy too, but at least he survived). By the way, Henry VIII also had problems fathering a male heir, but he was not so fixed on his sister... While Aegon obviously was, otherwise he immideately let/made her become a septa and married another woman. But he didn't take another wife even after Naerys' death.

However, I don't think Naerys and Aemon broke their vows. I hope Naerys conceived before wedding, but Viserys forced Aegon to keep silence in order not to disgrace his youngest children. After the death of his father Aegon was quite afraid of Aemon (though tried to threaten him through Hastwick's accusation and cruel punishment of TT), and after the death of Aemon he had completely lost any chance to prove that Daeron wasn't his son.

That's my version.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

The truth is, we don't have enough facts to pass a verdict. What we do have comes almost exclusively from biased sources.

55 minutes ago, LIVIA said:

I suppose he was. GRRM about Naerys:

But she also had a daugher, Daenerys, who was unquestionably fathered by Aegon. Yes, Naerys died when Daenerys was only 6 years old, but mothers are usually quite taken with their little children, especially born so late. Why did she love son more than daughter? The only reason I see is because Daenerys wasn't sired by her beloved man, unlike Daeron.

And I can think of a few more. Like, in her later years Naerys gave up laughing for good. Or maybe for making Naerys smile a special key was needed, and little Dany the First wasn't old enough to figure it out. Or maybe it was the "firstborn male" thing (in other words, Daeron was her Joffrey). That just off the top of my head.

[Hangover of the Morning]

I very much doubt that. The rumour started long long time after Daeron was born, possibly only after Daemon was legitimised or even much later. The rebels had really nothing to go for them, aside for Daemon's good looks, prowess in a battle and the Blackfyre sword so they desperately needed to discredit Daeron in some way. Daeron was not only true-born, older but had already proven to be a great king. The First Blackfyre Rebellion started a decade after Daeron II ascended the throne and long before anyone who could have known about Aemon or Naerys was dead. If Daemon was so sure that he was the rightful heir, why did he wait 10 years after his father's death to make his claim? 

Daeron II united the 7K and brought Dorne into the fold, thus bringing prosperity to the realm. In doing so, however, he created lots of enemies. It's really no surprise that the only Houses who supported Daemon where those who saw a chance to jump rank and remove their rival overlords. It's hard to see the motivation to rebel as anything but greed and anti-Dornish propaganda since the realm was doing so well under Daeron's reign. 

The rumour about Daemon and Daenerys was probably also fabricated or at least wildly exaggerated to give the rebellion a romantic and noble purpose. 

[Lord Varys]

On 20.7.2016 at 3:12 PM, LionoftheWest said:

And if Daeron II was the son of the Dragonknight it would of course mean that the Blackfyres are the correct heirs to the throne, and I'm not ready to accept that. No more than that the Dragonknight would have forsken his Kingsguard vows to sire children with the queen, when he was ready to give his life for a king he don't seems to have liked very much.

I just stumbled on that and thinking about it it is not necessarily the case. Aegon IV didn't know for a certainty that Daeron wasn't his son (if that was the case) and never named Daemon Blackfyre (or one of his other bastards) his heir.

Keep in mind that we only know the names of the children of Aegon IV by his mistresses. We have no idea whether some whore or serving wench gave him a son much older both Daeron II and Daemon Blackfyre. Not to mention that the elder Lothston children spring to mind. They were never acknowledged as Aegon's, of course, but they might have been his seed and thus affected by the general legitimization decree Aegon issued on his deathbed.

In addition there is the acknowledged son Balerion by Bellegere Otherys. Yandel claims the paternity of the boy is unclear but Aegon apparently acknowledged him or else he wouldn't be listed in TWoIaF. And that boy would be older than Daemon Blackfyre.

The other thing is that we have no idea whether Aegon stipulated where the hell in the succession the bastards should come. Behind his trueborn children or everybody in order of birth? In the former scenario Princess Daenerys and her children might have come before Daemon Blackfyre and all the other bastards - not to mention that they would have been in the position to challenge the inheritance of a legitimized bastard in any scenario.