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Has the shows writing become worse because it isn't following the books?


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13 hours ago, TheKnightOfJests said:

I think they just made odd choices more on spur of the moment ideas rather than thinking of what makes sense. Like Sansa going to Winterfell and being raped last season. We could have technically done the same thing with the battle of the bastards, or something similar and could have avoided the quite pointless Winterfell plot of S5.

Dorne in S5 was also pointless. The entire plot of it was saving Myrcella, and we didn't save Myrcella.

Dany fails to make peace in Mereen due to blatant arrogance in S5.

Arya aside from the final episode of S5 does nothing really interesting.

Basically the only compelling plot of S5 was the Wall plot. I think S5's pointlessness really shows in S6, but since we can't just pretend that a whole seasons worth of stuff didn't exist, they had to expand upon what they did, and I think they are kind of suffering for it.

 

Yep.  So many long, pointless storylines.  What do we do when we don't know how to tie them up?  Kill 'em all.

Your S5 storyline gripes are well founded.  

In season 6, you could argue that half of Jaime's season, nearly all of Mel & Davos, most of Brienne's (she travelled a lot, and accomplished little other than her timely saving of Sansa), and truly a lot of Dany's scenes were a waste, too.  

What was the point of Margaery Tyrell's season 6 other than to help convert Tommen, and die?  While we are on that....Why did we have sooo many scenes with the High Sparrow where we were led to believe figuring out his intentions were important?

In effect, the intrigue has been lost in the show.  The show still has some great acting, some cool characters, and some good action and CGI, but it is all on the surface.  The interesting scheming and plotting have been gutted.  Either for brevity, or due to lazy writing.  I am thinking it is the second due to the MANY violations of the Chekhov's gun principle.

 

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9 hours ago, NutBurz said:

-The entirety of Stannis´ death. It feels odd that a storm could be enough motivation for him to burn Shireen when we later get Jon and co. marching about the North, at least a month or two further into winter, just as it feels odd Brienne would actually find him (could have a full stop here) before any mounted Bolton scout found either him or her.

The Stannis death sequence was a real turning point for me in my view of the show's writing quality.  Stannis is the best military mind in Westeros for generations...and he gets beaten like that, eh?  I held out for most of this season thinking he might not be dead and it was gonna be a cool twist if he showed up instead of LF to save the Stark's bacon in the BoB.

It was inexplicable that he had that touching father-daughter scene with Shireen just before he burned her, but even more baffling that he marched his troops on Winterfell without any sort of plan, scouting, basic fortifications...or even getting troops into a battle line. 

I have no issue with Stannis making an exit and dying, just have him do it some way that wasn't stupid and a complete reversal of his character we've seen througout the show.

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51 minutes ago, Garse Ironjade Janacek said:

Yep.  So many long, pointless storylines.  What do we do when we don't know how to tie them up?  Kill 'em all.

Your S5 storyline gripes are well founded.  

In season 6, you could argue that half of Jaime's season, nearly all of Mel & Davos, most of Brienne's (she travelled a lot, and accomplished little other than her timely saving of Sansa), and truly a lot of Dany's scenes were a waste, too.  

What was the point of Margaery Tyrell's season 6 other than to help convert Tommen, and die?  While we are on that....Why did we have sooo many scenes with the High Sparrow where we were led to believe figuring out his intentions were important?

In effect, the intrigue has been lost in the show.  The show still has some great acting, some cool characters, and some good action and CGI, but it is all on the surface.  The interesting scheming and plotting have been gutted.  Either for brevity, or due to lazy writing.  I am thinking it is the second due to the MANY violations of the Chekhov's gun principle.

 

Wait? That's like saying what's the point of Ned? He only got his head chopped. Marg was one of the reason as to why happened in Kings landing, like Joffrey death, and the entire plot line with the faith

honestly? Talking about wasting plot line, let's talk about Dorne. I'd agree with that but then again, the books were considerable bad especially when you realize that GRRM actually had two books to make it interesting. 

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1 hour ago, xjlxking said:
2 hours ago, Garse Ironjade Janacek said:

 

Wait? That's like saying what's the point of Ned? He only got his head chopped. Marg was one of the reason as to why happened in Kings landing, like Joffrey death, and the entire plot line with the faith

 Ned's head being chopped lead to the War of the Five Kings.  That was a story-moving device.  It marked the end of Robert's Rebellion's leadership.  He died because his sense of honor overwhelmed his need for political craft.  There were lessons there, and his family all had their roles changed.  Ned's story needed to end to get where we are.  Most of Ned's scenes in season 1 were VITAL to understanding what comes later.  It also sent a message to the reader/viewer; nobody is safe in the Game of Thrones.

Lets compare that to Marg.  She died so that....what?  The Queen of Thorns would become Cersei's enemy??  Nope...she already was such an enemy.  What purpose did her death serve, and what about her scenes this season?  I don't mind the death...but why did we have so many marg scenes that prove to be useless dead ends?

1) the discussion with HS about giving Tommen sex.

2) the discussion with Loras

3) Her handing Oleanna the rose drawing.

If they just wanted to whack Marg, give that time to some other story or character or make her scene illustrative....Maybe some of these scenes will come up later, but I seriously doubt it.

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8 minutes ago, Garse Ironjade Janacek said:

but why did we have so many marg scenes that prove to be useless dead ends?

Because it´s GRRM. We didn´t need to be shown Quentyn Martell, everything that happened to him could have been told us second-hand, but GRRM likes to show how "promises" can end just like that. Margaery was show´s Quentyn.

If GRRM only wrote about characters that are absolutely fundamental and would not die, we´d have like 3 or 4 characters like every other boook. Both GRRM and the series spending time on people who had potential, who led other more relevant characters into this or that path, who played metonymy roles is sort of the very identity of the story.

 

Margaery is fundamental because she was both a possible nemesis for Cersei due to the prophecy, and because she was the very first thing to rob Tommen away from Cersei.

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2 hours ago, NutBurz said:

Because it´s GRRM. We didn´t need to be shown Quentyn Martell, everything that happened to him could have been told us second-hand, but GRRM likes to show how "promises" can end just like that. Margaery was show´s Quentyn.

If GRRM only wrote about characters that are absolutely fundamental and would not die, we´d have like 3 or 4 characters like every other boook. Both GRRM and the series spending time on people who had potential, who led other more relevant characters into this or that path, who played metonymy roles is sort of the very identity of the story.

 

Margaery is fundamental because she was both a possible nemesis for Cersei due to the prophecy, and because she was the very first thing to rob Tommen away from Cersei.

I'm not convinced Quentyn is dead in the book.  There was a lot strange things about his mission, his companions, and his death.  But, let's presume he is dead...much that he did in Mereen was important.  Part of the reason that Barristan jumped to the conclusion that Hizdar was a conspirator in Dany's death was his presence there, coupled with Barristan's sympathies for Dorne.  Q's presence built tension between Hizdar and Dany.  Q's mission demonstrated that the Dornish had plans that were deeper than just actions in Westeros.  It demonstrated Doran's ambitious nature.  Q's (former) companions still have a part to play with the Tatters.  None/very little of that material can be called filler...true?

Your point of Margaery importance earlier in the story is fair.  I get why Cersei killed her, and perhaps her death was the "last straw" that forced Tommen to off himself, therefore it was a plot impact.  Cool. 

That said, I do not think it answers my question or refutes my point, and that question is pertinent to the quality of writing in season 5 & 6.  

Why were we shown these meaningless scenes in season 6 if Marg was just gonna get cooked?  They were just a waste of time, unless some snippet of one of them emerges again.  Do any of us believe D&D are gonna "build" on any of the scenes I listed?  If not, what good were they (other than to look at Natalie Dormer, which is fine, just not good story writing!)

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My major gripe with the show is that they just show so much pointless banter when they could be focusing on much larger more important themes. I get that Peter Dinklage and Maisey Williams and Emilia Clarke are fan favorites but theirs isnt the only story here. I was very disappointed in the lack of BloodRaven. This is a character that Bran has been focused on for four years and we only see him for like 10 mins. He has a very deep background that they really didnt touch on at all. And Euron coming into the fold. We see him for like 5 mins as well. Could have elaborated on his character a little bit. I dont expect them to be like the books and I know they only have so much time  but my god, its like they drag out every pointless scene but skip through anything thats of importance. They spent so much time on Arya which was completely baffling. Samwells scenes were way too long. The Seige was boring and didnt make any sense. I just dont get how they choose to alott their time.

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No it has not become worse. The 4 best episode i've seen are Hardhome, The Door, Battle of the Bastards and Winds of Winter, and it's not even close. Have there been some coherence problems, some inconsistency, Oh yes, a thousand percent yes, which could had easily been fixed. Some of the problems for example is this lack of story continuation. If people were unbelievers of the other side of the wall's monsters and showed some fright at even hearing the mythology in the beginning then they should had followed up that same sense till the new reality began to set in, and showed the otherworldly and shriveling feelings as people came face to face with the new reality for the first time, which didn't happen. The show just rolled over the atmospheric sense of their own mythology, JOn to Lyanna Mormont, "White Walkers are coming with a dead people army", Lyanna Mormont nonchalant "is this true?", Davos "yes it is", Lyanna " ok we'll help you", All done in a non-disbelief attitude, nonchalant way by the Lyanna and her people. It was just terribly executed, terribly done. There's the giant in the battlefield and there's no amazement by anybody from the bolton, vale side. Those problems indeed lowered the quality of the story. Now having said that, the show could not follow the books any longer. It had already done most of the books stories but it also would had risked becoming a slow tv soup that just like the books nothing would had happens for a long time and non books readers like me would had lost interest and gone away.

 

The show understood that it needed to go beyond the book story and it did a good job on that, however It did a terrible job in  keeping the atmosphere it built in the beginning on different storylines like the north's.

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11 minutes ago, tormond said:

No it has not become worse. The 4 best episode i've seen are Hardhome, The Door, Battle of the Bastards and Winds of Winter, and it's not even close. Have there been some coherence problems, some inconsistency, Oh yes, a thousand percent yes, which could had easily been fixed. Some of the problems for example is this lack of story continuation. If people were unbelievers of the other side of the wall's monsters and showed some fright at even hearing the mythology in the beginning then they should had followed up that same sense till the new reality began to set in, and showed the otherworldly and shriveling feelings as people came face to face with the new reality for the first time, which didn't happen. The show just rolled over the atmospheric sense of their own mythology, JOn to Lyanna Mormont, "White Walkers are coming with a dead people army", Lyanna Mormont nonchalant "is this true?", Davos "yes it is", Lyanna " ok we'll help you", All done in a non-disbelief attitude, nonchalant way by the Lyanna and her people. It was just terribly executed, terribly done. There's the giant in the battlefield and there's no amazement by anybody from the bolton, vale side. Those problems indeed lowered the quality of the story. Now having said that, the show could not follow the books any longer. It had already done most of the books stories but it also would had risked becoming a slow tv soup that just like the books nothing would had happens for a long time and non books readers like me would had lost interest and gone away.

 

The show understood that it needed to go beyond the book story and it did a good job on that, however It did a terrible job in  keeping the atmosphere it built in the beginning on different storylines like the north's.

What makes a great episode in your  opinion? Lots of CGI and unrealistic death scenes? I have no qualms with the show inventing storylines that differ from the books but when they do they fail horribly. None of the battle of the bastards or the winds of winter episodes make any sense story wise.

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2 hours ago, Garse Ironjade Janacek said:

Why were we shown these meaningless scenes in season 6 if Marg was just gonna get cooked?

The way I saw the ones you mentioned:

5 hours ago, Garse Ironjade Janacek said:

1) the discussion with HS about giving Tommen sex.

Two things-

-this is the first time in the series that we´re shown the processes through which faith has, in reality, taken hold of institutions like nobility. We´ve always seen very religious people in order to estabilish that religion is a large part of their society, but we had never been shown how men and women who deal with politics, and thus power, even allow their power to be shared by these ideals that are so foreign to sheer powerstruggle.

These scenes of the HS talking to the various people are trying to show how the spiritual realm can be put in relevant terms of human existence; and into terms that are relevant both for the minority of power seekers but also, and mainly, for the majority of common people.

It´s obvious that a king needs an heir, but how does that ever come to involve religion, and how could Religion ever come to have any say in this process? Through events like the ones we´re shown with Margaery.

-This scene also estabilishes the possibility for the future. At that point the audience doesn´t know she´s going to die, so it´s very much possible they´re learning about how the next stage came to be. It´s drama after all, not a documentary.

5 hours ago, Garse Ironjade Janacek said:

2) the discussion with Loras

Two things-

-Closure for the character. He´s quite important, skilled fighter, heir to highgarden, it matters what happened to him after being locked up. He broke.

-Paralels with Jaime, especially for book readers. Even Jaime recognizes himself in Loras, and both have reasons why they could have been imprisioned by the faith. Jaime was almost broken when he lost his hand, maybe he could have proven weaker than he thought in Loras´ shoes.

5 hours ago, Garse Ironjade Janacek said:

3) Her handing Oleanna the rose drawing.

-Margaery needed her to leave, lest the faith got her too. Margaery knew she wouldn´t leave if she thought they were manipulating her granddaughter. And the plot needed Oleanna away from the Sept for a good reason.

 

-regarding Quentyn, I agree everything is relevant, but I still think we could have heard about everything second-hand. I´m not saying I dislike, or that it´s badly done or anything, it´s great, it´s the style, just like Margaery.

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51 minutes ago, TheSeer27 said:

What makes a great episode in your  opinion? Lots of CGI and unrealistic death scenes? I have no qualms with the show inventing storylines that differ from the books but when they do they fail horribly. None of the battle of the bastards or the winds of winter episodes make any sense story wise.

Lots of things makes a great episode. Hardhome episode could had gone so horribly wrong, could had become cartoony but it didnt. Story tellers Specially in movies and tv shows tend to sometimes not deliver on a good build up. The show built up these mysterious white walkers creatures of legends from the beginning, making them a scary future threat for everyone with subtle appearances. And when hardhome hit, it didnt just ask, it took. It delivered with a punch that these things are not playing, demolishing and massacring everything in their path while at the same time raising Jon Snow into an important figure that will oppose them, without making the white walkers loose their scary face. Pretty hard balance act they did there.

 

You telling me your negative opinion of the things you want me to perceive doesnt change the fact that the episode delivered with interest what the story's been cooking up for a long time. Lots of CGI? i have not seen better cinematography in movies for a long time. Unrealistic death scene? which one?. How about you tell me the water wasn't cold enough. I bet you would have a problem with the fly you spotted near the nights king head. As i said before, the only problem with the show is the lack of sense of danger and disbelief and atmosphere sense on some of the stories and scenes

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34 minutes ago, tormond said:

Lots of things makes a great episode. Hardhome episode could had gone so horribly wrong, could had become cartoony but it didnt. Story tellers Specially in movies and tv shows tend to sometimes not deliver on a good build up. The show built up these mysterious white walkers creatures of legends from the beginning, making them a scary future threat for everyone with subtle appearances. And when hardhome hit, it didnt just ask, it took. It delivered with a punch that these things are not playing, demolishing and massacring everything in their path while at the same time raising Jon Snow into an important figure that will oppose them, without making the white walkers loose their scary face. Pretty hard balance act they did there.

 

You telling me your negative opinion of the things you want me to perceive doesnt change the fact that the episode delivered with interest what the story's been cooking up for a long time. Lots of CGI? i have not seen better cinematography in movies for a long time. Unrealistic death scene? which one?. How about you tell me the water wasn't cold enough. I bet you would have a problem with the fly you spotted near the nights king head. As i said before, the only problem with the show is the lack of sense of danger and disbelief and atmosphere sense on some of the stories and scenes

I never mentioned Hardhome. I said The battle of the bastards and winds of winter. I see you've said nothing to defend either of their writing.

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16 minutes ago, TheSeer27 said:

I never mentioned Hardhome. I said The battle of the bastards and winds of winter. I see you've said nothing to defend either of their writing.

i say the same thing for those episodes as well. The Battle of the bastards battle is the best battle in all of game of thrones, better choreographed than hardhome. And as i said, the best cinematography i've seen in a long time. Were those episode perfect? no, they had big flaws and i already mentioned it. When the boltons and vale men see a giant on the battlefield and have no reaction to it, that's a problem. When they leave vague what the northmen know about the threat from beyond the wall and their lack of reasonable reaction to it, that's a big problem. But the point is that the show did well in going beyond the books and into their own storyline which provably most of it will be followed by GRRM. And the episodes did make sense into the overall storyline thou with some flaws.

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  • So you see no problem with the Vale army somehow marching north and noone telling Ramsey? How does an army that big go unnoticed? Why does Sansa not tell Jon? She had multiple chances to say oh btw jon theres this guy littlefinger who loves me in a completely creepy sort of way, but he has the biggest army in Westeros at his command. And they just happen to arrive at the nick of time. My god how many times can Brienne or Benjen or Littlefinger come in the nick of time to save someone. Do you not realize how big the North is? But yea it was all one shot and Jon went all Mel Gibson in Braveheart so I guess that makes for a good episode. Why does Ramsay kill Wunwun when he could have easily had killed Jon? Why shoot a giant whos already dying when he knows hes going to die. He might as well take Jon with him. Shit is so stupid.
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2 minutes ago, TheSeer27 said:

So you see no problem with the Vale army somehow marching north and noone telling Ramsey?

Like you said yourself, the North is huge, and there´s very few people living on it right now considering the amount of land. The Vale army was not an enemy, and Littlefinger could have taken countless precautions like killing scouts, retaining travelers, shooting down ravens. 

 

4 minutes ago, TheSeer27 said:

Why does Sansa not tell Jon?

She doesn´t fully trust him, she doesn´t know whether she really has the army or not, she doesn´t want to embarass herself talking about how she rejected the army.

 

7 minutes ago, TheSeer27 said:

Why does Ramsay kill Wunwun when he could have easily had killed Jon?

He shot the dying giant first and proceeded to shoot Jon. Why shoot Jon first? He doesn´t really have anything personal against him, he doens´t hate him or anything that leads him to a gut reaction, he´s sadistic, he likes to see people suffer - and that´s a giant, better to kill it than to make him particularly angry.


I agree Bran´s scene escaping the cave is not good at any point, I think I forgot to make it clearer when I talked about time-travel. The creeps trying to break through the ceiling instead of using the front door was funny, and however strong Hodor might be, Meera could never run very far carrying Bran in the snow, they should at least have put Coldhands saving them really close to "the door".

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9 minutes ago, NutBurz said:

Like you said yourself, the North is huge, and there´s very few people living on it right now considering the amount of land. The Vale army was not an enemy, and Littlefinger could have taken countless precautions like killing scouts, retaining travelers, shooting down ravens. 

 

She doesn´t fully trust him, she doesn´t know whether she really has the army or not, she doesn´t want to embarass herself talking about how she rejected the army.

 

He shot the dying giant first and proceeded to shoot Jon. Why shoot Jon first? He doesn´t really have anything personal against him, he doens´t hate him or anything that leads him to a gut reaction, he´s sadistic, he likes to see people suffer - and that´s a giant, better to kill it than to make him particularly angry.


I agree Bran´s scene escaping the cave is not good at any point, I think I forgot to make it clearer when I talked about time-travel. The creeps trying to break through the ceiling instead of using the front door was funny, and however strong Hodor might be, Meera could never run very far carrying Bran in the snow, they should at least have put Coldhands saving them really close to "the door".

1.There is no way you march an army of that magnitude without someone informing Ramsey. How is an army not a threat to him?!?! Its not a Bolton army. He would see any army coming north as a threat. Ofcourse the Vale isnt gonna side with Ramsey.

2. Sansa not telling him and then just saying saying oh sorry and him forgiving her was so terrible. Look how many men died because of her. He asked her when will we have more men and she said nothing. The wildlings are almost decimated. The last of the giants slain. Rickon died for nothing. They could have bargained for his life atleast a little. If ramsey knew they had supporters that large his negotiations would have been much different.

3. He has everything personal against Jon. Hes commanding the army thats coming to kill him and retake Winterfell. He has a grudge against Sansa. He hates the Starks. If im Ramsey and  I know im going to die, might as well take Jon with me. He gains nothing by shooting an arrow through a giant thats already dying.

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44 minutes ago, TheSeer27 said:

3. He has everything personal against Jon. Hes commanding the army thats coming to kill him and retake Winterfell. He has a grudge against Sansa. He hates the Starks. If im Ramsey and  I know im going to die, might as well take Jon with me. He gains nothing by shooting an arrow through a giant thats already dying.

I do have to say, Ramsay shooting Wun Wun instead of Jon had me slapping my forehead at the ridiculousness of it. Ok, fine, he wanted to take out the giant, even though the leader of his opposition is RIGHT THERE, but then instead of instantly reloading and shooting Jon before he has a chance to grab a shield, he starts MONOLOGUING, like some Thundercats villain.

I get that things are being presented in a certain way for entertainment value, but not at the expense of making them beyond illogical.

Edit: I also want to know, how did Ramsay even get in the courtyard without someone shooting him first? The Stark forces burst in and instantly began mowing down the remaining Bolton forces, but in the middle of that, Ramsay just strolled to the middle of the courtyard, knocked an arrow, aimed carefully enough to shoot a giant in the eye, and no one noticed?

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On 7/20/2016 at 0:04 PM, TheKnightOfJests said:

I haven't been as impressed by the last two seasons as much as I have with the first four, and I think I know why.
Now before anyone calls me a book fanatic who can't love an adaptation, let me say this. After episode four of season 5 I was only half way through the first book, so I had no idea what was coming, and I really thought the writing was slipping on the show. My theory was that because they had announced before season 5 aired that the show was no longer following the books, that that was why the writing was slipping. I've heard people who don't even read the books complain about things in the show that just seem wrong, whether it be character actions, continuity, and other things.

Now that I'm caught up on all the books, I'm annoyed at more things than what I was then, but still, I was noticing stuff when I wasn't even caught up on the original source material. 

I think it's because the show writers now don't really have an outline for things. My best comparison to this would probably something like how the Lord of the Rings books relate to the the film trilogy. As a fan of the books I love the film trilogy, cause aside from a few bits of creative license, the overall story is kept intact. The way the Hobbit movies related to their source material was way different and the movies  are just not as popular as their LOTR counterparts. Stretcing one book into three movies, and having to make up half of what was in each film made book fans mad, and kind of bored movie audiences. I'm still entertained by them, but they aren't beautiful like the first trilogy was

I think this is what's happening to GOT. Now that they aren't following the books, they writers basically have to think up a whole new story, and it's why we have book and show fans alike pointing out errors. This isn't to say the show is bad now, just that it's not as good as it was before.

While I wasn't blown away by season six, I do think it was better than season five, so that means the writers could finally be adapting to doing their own thing. Maybe next season will be just as good as seasons 1, or 4. I want to try to be optimistic.

What does everyone think?

Great thread, awesome grist for the conversation mill, but I think you pose a question that's nearly impossible to definitively answer, cuz we just don't know for sure what is canon and what's not anymore.

Someone may correct me if GRRM and/or Dan and Dave have exhaustively revealed what is and is not canon now that the show is past the books, but my understandnig is that some is, some isn't, and we have nearly no way to tell the difference.

Here's a good example:  When they burned Shireen last year, I was APPALLED, and STRONGLY assumed Dan and Dave were to blame for it (as gratuitous shock value), and that it COULDN'T happen in the books (cuz Selyse and Shireen didn't even GO with Stannis to march on Winterfell in the books), but then, just a few weeks ago, I re-watched all of Season 5, and was watching the show runner comments after that episode when I was shocked to hear one of the show runners talking about, as I recall, how THEY were surprised when GRRM told them about Shireen being burned.

I was stunned.  Apparently, Shireen IS going to be burned in the books, and so my point is that I was blaming Dan and Dave for something that, I later came to find out, apparently is book canon (albeit not in the exact way it was in the show, presumably).

Bottom line for me is I love the books, I love the show, the books will almost always be better overall, but I think the show has actually improved the source material in some areas as well, so I try to keep that in mind (best example:  Bronn's role has been expanded in the show, which I think is a great move.  I like how he was helping Jaime train, how he is kind of Jaime's right hand man (HAR!) now, and how he and Jaime have become friends.  I think it's cool how Bronn has become buddies with, and hangs out with, both the Lannister brothers.  Loved Bronn's reunion with Pod in Season 6, too.  The Bronn actor is great, the character is great, and I'm all for a continued, expanded role for Bronn in the show)

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